Conference quark::mennotes

.0>	not entering marriage without some prenuptial agreement.


personally, i fully agree with the idea that before entering a marriage 
an agreement by both partners should be reached on the termination criteria.


following my divorce i went self-employed to make up for the extra money
that i'd have to pay for my ex. as i set up in business i went into a joint
venture with a bud from work, who also had just started up in business.

i got my lawyer to draw up the contract for the joint business venture.

my lawyers first advice: "when you're defining a joint venture, be sure
you're clear about defining the termination criteria; particularly if the 
joint venture is between buds. if you're doing business with buds because you
think you're getting along real well, there is a big danger that the issues
are overlooked which arise when the joint venture doesn't work out. define 
the wind-up procedures BEFORE you get into the joint venture, not later when 
you end up fighting over assets. defining the termination procedure at the 
outset will save you lots of lawyers fees. what's more, if you think you're 
real good buds, you ought to be able to tackle even this morbid subject 
together - look upon the work you do in preparation for the joint venture as 
a test for your future relationship."


that was a sound advice from one good lawyer. in my opinion, it applies 
even more so to marriage, as the closest and most intimate form of all joint 
ventures.




andreas.

    

    Actually, personally, I would not depend on a prenuptial agreement.
    Too many of those get thrown out by Judges in the U.S.

    "Shacking Up" can also be dangerous.  I have a friend who lost his
    house (even though he had owned it previous to the relationship) 
    because she claimed they were "common law" married after they had
    lived together.

    Like one of the Country-Western singers recently, "The next time I
    feel like getting married, I think instead I'll just find some woman
    I can't stand and buy her a house".  :^, (only half a smiley here)

    fred();

    There is a case where a guy married a woman, he was a pilot. Married
    for 6 months. The lovely new bride loved other women, not the real
    issue. But, the judge gave her the house, maintence, and the new
    girlfriend and the ex share the lovely abode that the pilot worked for,
    and the pre-nep wasn't worth the paper it was signed on. The pre-nep
    got tossed out of court..... Life if you have external genatilia.:)
    

re .2 and .3


fred and george, gee, with all the bad experiences you guys keep making with 
the courts you ought to know by now that the courts are a mostly useless last 
resort! ;-)

i'd value a premarital agreement not so much for the paper it is written on
but that the matters addressed there have actually been given in-depth 
consideration _before_ going into the venture. as you say, chances that the 
agreement will stand up in court are variable, but that's not the sole point 
of the exercise, i see it.




andreas.

    These are not my experiences, they are from others who have walked the
    firewalk. Our court system has failed, it is clearly sexist, biased,
    and at least, unfair. And it doesn't have to be a divorce, look how the
    system handles murder victums, or handles people who have taken a life.
    The accused/murders have more rights than the bloody victums.. 

    .0 Fred
    
    I read this note and it reminded me of the relationship I'm in with my 
    fiance. He is out of a very nasty marriage that ended when he said I do. 
    
    He knew it was over before he started, everyone said, "she" was the
    best thing for him, not me...well he turned to what he believed was the
    best advise and married what he thought was the right woman..well, a
    month into the marriage he says, "we have no kids, we should just call
    this marriage off, we don't get along, we've known that for years, we
    made a mistake, lets end this friends..." well, I guess that wasn't
    enough for her because "she was on the pill" and she got pregnant not
    soon after that conversation...talk about trust...seems there was a bit
    of miscommunication that only the child now bears..
    Today he and his ex don't even have conversation..beyond what the son
    needs or what weekend pick up plans entail. 
    They have been separated and divorced for over four years and just NOW 
    she is getting over it, she blamed everyone for her pregnacy, he blamed 
    only himself...he stayed with his son to fullfill his responsibility
    and because he didn't want to leave behind his kid. But when he bit the
    bullet to leave for his own happieness..."you're leaving your son"...
    What is that....the fathers aren't leaving their children they are
    leaving their bad relationships. When I met back up with him, I never
    saw such a sad man...but I blamed him of course until I watched from
    outside the situation. 
    My SO is scared whittless about having children...well, that's
    not fair to me. I'm NOT his EX wife. I am not a volutaryily unemployed,
    white trash, money sucking welfare reciepient with no ambition to do
    anything but take my child support and got to FOXwoods and gamble...I
    am a well educated (though my spelling has much to be desired)
    professional, with a family of no divorce and no marrital discourse.
    His ex comes from a family of the above discription...she was the only
    one employed out of 5 bro and sis...he didn't see this coming
    amazingly. 
    We have this discussion all the time..it's not fair to me
    that he had a bad marriage. I excepted his package deal him and his
    son, well my package deal comes with a kid too. Don't have it yet but
    he would be setting us up for the same failure if he keeps thinking,
    I'm not in this relationship 50% - 50%, I'm never giving my heart
    totally, never opening up to the woman I love, well...you know what
    happens then.....how much love would he really HAVE?
    If you think it...it will happen.. You need to start over with your new
    wife.If you're happily married, then nothing should break the bond...
    If something should happen in your current situation, your love for your 
    wife should prevail. 
    I explained to my SO, if he didn't want children with me, he should
    have a vasectomy, he should take full responsibilities for birth
    control. I'm not going anywhere, he's not going anywhere, and if something
    were to happen and he left, that doesn't say much for his commitment or 
    his integrity or his love for me, or my ability to read BS when I see it. 
    It wouldn't say much for me either for my character picking would it..
    
    I still believe that men don't organize better together to fight this
    kind of situation. The mother is not necessarily the BEST parent.
    Sometime it can get overwhelming for the mother, natural, but when it
    comes to leaving your child unattended to go satisfy your adult needs or
    when the child is constantly sick with asthma and the cp smokes so much
    that the childs clothes reak of tabacco...when the mom just can't take
    on the responsibility of parenting, then maybe it't time the other
    parent take over. I believe that men should ban together more to form
    an organized group of "unemotional" demands to the courts about
    parental rights to a child. I know many man that just shy away from
    confrontation because they are afraid to lose their child..
    Strength is in numbers guys. There are not all bad women out there, and
    some of us even believe that the dad is the best mom sometimes. 
    
    sorry so long..
    
    
    

    
    Thanks,  

    I do understand your situation, and that you too are victimized by
    the same system that I have spent so much time fighting even though
    it no longer involves me personally (except it is now _she_ who woes
    _me_ well into five figures of child support I will likely never see).

    I agree that at least 90% of the women I know are decent people.  Just
    like 50% of the marriages do work and 75% of the men who are supposed
    to pay child support do.  It's the rest of them that give the human
    race the bad name.

    Some of the biggest supporters of the cause have bee _women_ who have
    seen first hand what the system does to men, and to the parents,
    girlfriends, and second wives. 

    PLEASE! I do not mean this as a criticism, but it is probably difficult
    for you to understand just _how much_ trust you are asking him to put
    in you that 2 or 5 or 10 years down the road you will not change the
    rules.  Would you be willing to sign a paper that gives him custody of
    the child and child support  should the marriage fail  some where in
    the unforseeable future.  That's what you are asking him to do. If it
    was a possibility that he would get the child in custody and you would
    be the one out in the cold would you be so anxious to have children?  
    Like Suzanne said, the only men can protect themselves right now is
    to make sure they don't have children.

    If you do  indeed _love__him_, be patient.  You know your heart, but he
    does not have a window.  It may take him a while to see, and the wait
    _will_ be worth it. I would expect that your demands to have children
    are more frightening to him than you can imagine.  Having been cut
    badly once it is difficult to lay your head on the chopping block
    again.  You are asking him for a commitment that you will not be
    required to keep, but for him, could last long after the marriage.  

    If you think that there is any chance that some day he may want to have
    children, I'd be careful about the vasectomy.  The reversal rate is
    poor.

this reply probably goes here; it's a bit of a sad one.

the big (teenage) love of my life prior to getting married was a girl from 
oregon - we spent our teens together in west africa where both our dads 
worked in diplomatic service. we loved eachother and couldn't wait to be 
grown ups and to marry when our two year teenage romance was abruptly 
terminated shortly before we reached the age of eighteen. service called my 
dad to rome (italy) and hers to liberia.

we lost touch, i found a woman like her and married; the rest is history.

after the divorce i set out to find the woman from oregon. i did find
her and we got back together for awhile. much had changed - i was now a 
father of two children, with a terrible marriage behind me and in emotional
turmoil over having lost the kids. she had remained unmarried waiting for 
mr. right to show up. if there was one person who truly resented my ex,
it was my friend from oregon -- my friend and i had been so close, she must 
have seen like noone else all the changes and all the pain. "fight for your
kids andi, put her (the mother) away, she's not fit to look after them,
your kids belong to you!" she would insist. i said i couldn't do that, i 
couldn't break my ex, for this is what it would have meant.

i had taken the wrong turn at a junction when i was twenty, and my friend
from oregon and i where now in totally different places. we had to continue
on the paths which we had chosen for ourselves. our ways parted for a
while, she married, had kids and we're still in touch.

what i want to say with this note is, that even a divorced man who hasn't
got custody of his children comes with a package when it's time for the
second attempt. the package may not be obvious, since from the outside the
man looks like any other unmarried eligible male. but, despite of what it 
may seem, it sure ain't easy for the guy either, with his package, to find 
the one which is compatible to his own!




andreas.

	Suzanne,

	Re: women who make out finanically in a divorce.

		Here's my STB X's phone number at work (603)881-3700
		

	Re: Fred's .0 basenote on FAULT re-instituting FAULT divorce

		I happen to believe FAULT should be levied for adultery and
		Physical abuse with irrefutable proof on either party.  If
		Adultery has occured that 3rd person should be found and 
		s/he should be forced to pay for the ensuing divorce.

	Re: Custody and Support.

		Custody *AND* support should be shared - ***EQUALLY***.
		EQUALLY means 50-50 .... period.  If she *or* he needs to
		get their respective butt in gear and work an extra job or
		something to get the base level of support $$$ that is to 
		be shared 50/50 then so be it ! 

	Chuck

    Chuck, you probably meant to post this in topic 204.*, didn't you?

    As for custody, I agree that JOINT CUSTODY is the ideal and that
    every court should try hard to work towards it, if both parents
    want custody (and if they are mature enough to handle it.)

    Obviously, when at least one of the parties has a hair-trigger temper
    along with nearly infinite bitterness towards the ex-spouse, joint
    custody would not work in such cases.

    The parents have to be actual adults.

    
>		Adultery has occured that 3rd person should be found and 
>		s/he should be forced to pay for the ensuing divorce.
    
    I have a big problem with that idea.  The 3rd person did not break any
    promises or take any vows in this relationship.  The cheating spouse is
    the number one louse.  No one makes them cheat; they choose to break
    their vows.
    
    Greg
    

    Greg, I agree.
    
    The third party may not even have known that the person was married,
    for one thing.
    
    The person who breaks his/her vows is responsible for his/her actions.

    .7
    
    Fred
    
    Well, I am patient, but I'm still NOT his ex wife. I can't comprehend,
    I guess, divorce. I was in a very unhealthy relationship before I met
    him again. I was to be married to someone that I really didn't love,
    but everyone gave theire two cents and vol-la..I left him..of course I
    found out about the other woman who knew about me...but that's another
    story...I got out before I made the biggest mistake of my life. That
    still took some counceling. I see things differently now. I don't
    demand that we have children...but he knew the package when he stayed
    with me also. See, not only do divorced men with children come with a 
    package deal, but so do woman with dreams...and because the man of my
    dreams married the women of his nightmares first, shouldn't be
    something that I pay for. I do love him to pieces and I know that he
    loves me to pieces. He's a good man with a good soul, nasty ex-wife,
    but a good soul. I want to have children, some day, not today, but
    someday. I told him to have a vastectomy...he cringed a whole lot and
    told me that was a bit drastic...what if he changes his mind and no one
    is touching his....%^&*(^*''s....I am letting him move at his own rate.
    I think his son is getting more ancy than I am..constantly asking him
    when he's going to have a baby bro or sis...it's rather comical to see
    both of their faces...
    

    re .13

    I realize that not having been through it you may not be quite able
    to understand it.  And I realize that I am making some rather huge
    guesses here, but I'll try to give you an idea what he's dealing with.

    If my current wife could have children and wanted to have children
    we'd have big problems since I'd be very jumpy about that kind of
    commitment again, and she may well be jumpy knowing how hard I'd
    fight for custody if anything happened.

    Contrary to popular belief, most men do care about their kids.  1/2
    of marriages _do_ succeed, and 1/2 or more of men who should pay
    support do.  And not having children, It is probably hard for you
    to understand just how devastating loosing a child can be.  Not
    to death (you'd know that there was nothing you could do although
    it would be painful) but to _knowing_ that the child is not being
    properly cared for and being able to do _nothing_ about it.  Sending
    more money won't help because the money being sent is not being spent
    on the children.

    Next you have another person who says *trust me* the marriage will
    last forever.  Just like the last one did.  But if anything happens
    2 or 5 or so years down the road then he will *once again* have his
    child taken away (when this happens to a woman the "feminists" have
    a conniption), and be saddled with *another* major expense for the
    next 20 odd years.  Like I said, how would you like to be the one
    to sign a paper that gives him custody and support if anything
    happens.  That is what you are asking him to do since, even without
    a paper, that's probably what will happen if the marriage breaks up,
    and he's lost his "It will never happen to me" denial.

    And I haven't seen any indication that you are doing it, but,
    if on top of that, if it were me, and there was any noise about
    "I get a child or the relationship can't last", I'd wonder what
    would be the next thing that would be "I get what I want or the
    relationship can't last".  I would not walk out of the relationship,
    I'd *RUN* as if the hounds of hell were after me.

    fred();

    To the Dads getting the shaft,
    To the women sharing their lives with the Dads getting the shaft,
    and to the kids who inherit the shaft,
    You are in my thoughts and prayers.
    									
    During a Q&A about a gift my SO gave me, my step-daughter asked me "did
    you and daddy get married" ?  I replied, "no, but, would it make any
    difference if we were"?  She replied, "yeah.  that means mommy gets 
    more money".  Out of the mouths of babes....
    
    Meanwhile, my step-son who thrives in our household, proud and
    centered, lives with his mother who fosters his low self-esteem
    whenever possible.  Makes him feel stupid, unimportant and a _burden_.
    My SO doesn't have a chance in hell of gaining custody unless he can
    prove she's a junkie, a hooker, or a child molester.
    She told me once in a weakened moment that she knows he would be better 
    off living with us, but "it rips her heart out at the thought of giving 
    him up".  Yeah, right.  Giving up the meal ticket, maybe.  
    
    Anyway, I always wanted children of my own.  It just never happened.
    I would have been a good mother.  I'm a good step-mom.  But, judging by
    the horror stories I've experienced myself and read in this conference,
    if I ever had the chance, I'd opt out.  
    
    It's been said that ...it takes an entire village to raise a child".  
    I guess I'm just lucky to be one of the village people.
    
    
                  
    
    

    .14
    Fred, just because I didn't bore his son doesn't mean that my feelings
    are less attached. I've been around almost all of his sons life..I mean
    more than 3/4 of his life. So don't tell me I don't know what it's like
    to loose a child. If anything I pain more because I now have to watch
    two people I love go through hell, and as nature deamed it, can't do a
    thing about it because....I'm not HIS mom...well, I might as well be, I
    cloth him, I shelter him from the cold and excessive heat...I quit
    smoking (because that's a good thing...) because he has asthma. I sit
    up at night when he's sick, I'm there when he's in the hospital...so
    don't say I don't know. Just because I didn't give birth to him doesn't
    mean I don't hurt every other weekend when I HAVE to send him back to
    hell. He calls during the week...daddy can you and shell come get
    me...Tell me that isn't  enough to break your heart..he calls crying..I
    miss you and shell dad...ya, this kids ok at home,  but as a previous
    noter said unless we can prove she's completely uncapable of handling a
    child or is a felon of some sort...as long as he has food shelter and
    clothing, we can't do a blessed thing..see no one is checking on his
    mental state of mind. He is so encouraged at our house..and yes, his
    mom has been addressed by his dad, "if you're having a hard time
    getting back on your feet, I'll take him untill you get a job and back
    to normal..." you know, she told him she'd rather starve than give her
    son up to his father....funny if she's starving, guess so is the
    son..nice mom she is huh? No I have no physical children, but I hurt
    too when I know his son is in danger, hurt or unhappy. I hurt more
    cause I watch with no control over the pain. Fred, Stand on this side
    of the road...it's a different perspective, no less painful either. 
    Just a different pain.
    I sympathize about your fear, but trust is something that is learned
    and if you don't trust your current wife to stay with you forever, self
    fulfilling prophecy tells me she won't. I have made no threat about the
    children..how could I love him if I'd leave to marry whoever to JUST
    get married and have childrens....guess I really won't love him if I
    gave him an ultimatum. I am patient, but the boat floats in both
    directions and if I have to be patient, he has to also. His fear isn't
    something that should affect my life, nor should my fear affect his
    life. We'll work through this...obviously he's working on it if a
    vasectomy is " a bit drastic ". He's a teddy bear everytime we see a
    baby...if you could see his face and hear him...he's scared and that's
    ok, but he is learning to trust and that's the most important right
    now....that he learn trust. I'm not his ex wife and if I even remotely
    resembled anything she did, he'd be a fool to stay with me...!!
     

    
    I guess it boils down to--Would you sign a paper that would give him
    custody of the child and child support should the marriage fail?
    
    fred();

    Esp in this day and age where women want more involvement in their
    carriers, in their men involved in child rearing. We hear this constant
    din of us not being involved. Yet, when it comes to the bottom line,
    its the same old, same old bashing.

re .16



you are one courageous woman and you are right that you need not be 
the biological parent to feel very much like a parent.

my god-children are a case in point. they are two boys who live in my 
neigbourhood and to whom i have become, over the years, something like 
a substitute father. they haven't heard from or seen their biological
father in years.

it is also true, as .15 mentioned, it takes a village to raise a child.



andreas.

    First of all, I think he's a great dad and if anything happened to us,
    that would not and should not effect the child except that we live
    separately. I would have joint custody. I have a job and it may be
    difficult, but I wouldn't ask for a huge amount of support or any if
    that. I have already gone through this scenario...I would never USE the
    child to my benefit.. the child isn't an object.. 
    
    so the answer I guess would be no..nor would I ask him to sign full
    custody over to me. 
    If I didn't think I was in a position to fully give our child a good
    life and he was, I think it would take a lot from my soul to give full
    custody, but this issue wouldn't be about me...it would be about what
    was best for the child..isn't that what custody should be about?
    
    

    
    reply
    
>    so the answer I guess would be no..nor would I ask him to sign full
>    custody over to me. 
    
    Thing is, you don't have to ask.  That is just what will happen.  He
    doesn't _know_ it will happen, but he _knows_ it _can_ happen and there
    won't be much more he can do about that situation than he can about
    his current ex.  See the "my ex mutated" note.
    
    fred(); 

    Yes Fred, but I would know. I wouldn't ask for full custody. I would
    ask for joint. I am in control when I hire a lawyer, not the lawyer.
    They can tell me what guidelines to adhere to, but if i'm paying them,
    they are going to do as I say, not as they want...there are definately
    plenty of lawyers out there willing to listen and act on your reuqest.
    
    I still give you credit. I give all the men who have fought the good
    fight for your children. They will figure it out someday and love you
    more for it. So if you fight and you lose, you still have visitations,
    if you fight and you win, you have your children. I think more men
    should stand in numbers together to repeal some child custody laws.
    It's abomidable, a friend here at work is going through the same thing
    as I, only my SO's ex is mild compared to her SO's ex.