Conference quark::mennotes

    Write a letter to your formal GAL of your conserns. And if something
    should happen. Your back side is covered. I guess if she is picking up
    the tab, the walking wallet has no say, we have had no say when it
    comes to this sort of stuff. Only if there is a pending danger that is
    beyond reasonable proof.
    

    Talk with both your sons about it.  find out what each of them really
    thinks about it.  Find out how important it is to your son and why he
    wants to go.  Find out how hard he intends to work to go and how
    committed he is.  Talk with your ex.  Why is she so supportive.  What
    is she trying to accomplish by his going.
    
    find out about the organization.  talk to some families who have had
    children go.  Find out how they screen host families.  Find out how
    they meet the emotional needs of the children while they are there.
    
    Decide how far you are willing to support your son's plans or fight
    those plans based on the facts and feelings of your son.  If this is
    something that is really important to your son and he is willing to
    work to make it happen, what will it do to your relationship to him if
    you put up a big fight so he cannot go?

      I think that this "program" could be a great experience for your son,
  depending on how it is run.  Since it is run by the school, I imagine that
  it has some sort of structured itinerary, as well as coordinators, right?
  Also, since several students are going over, will he remain with the other
  students who go over?  These are some questions that need answers.  
      If the program only involved spending 3-4 weeks in Europe, with no 
  instruction or guidance from teachers/leaders, then I would agree that the 
  trip is not worth it for a 13 year old. 

      Since he has to be interviewed and "chosen" to participate in this
  program, it sounds like a unique and special oppurtunity - something that
  not every child could do.  I know more than once when I was growing up I
  had the chance to participate in special programs, and if it weren't for
  my parents encouraging me to do so, I would have missed some wonderful
  experiences.


	Finally, this last line did not sit well with me:

>>    And I know for a fact that if I was still married to her, that my son
>>    wouldn't be going to Europe at age 13, no way no how, period.

	Does this mean that even if he wanted to go, you would still not
  let him?

    Could this organization possibly be "People to People"?  If so, then
    despite your many reservations I would highly recommend it.
    
    My son, who had just turned 13, went to Australia and New Zealand with
    "People to People" last summer and it was a wonderfully positive
    experience for him.  His mother and I managed to make this happen for
    him, even though we were in the midst of a separation leading to
    divorce.  One of the things that the program emphasizes is that the
    student should work to earn at least some, if not all of the money for
    the trip - they help with fundraising ideas and suggestions.  
    
    I would strongly suggest, that before you go any further you find out
    as much as you can about the organization sponsoring the trip - this
    could easily take care of any of the fears you might have surrounding
    this trip.  Again, depending upon the program it is, many are very
    legitimate programs where the participants are well supervised at all
    times, and the host families are well screened.  
    
    Do your homework on the program - and if it is the "People to People"
    program I would be more than happy to talk with you about it "offline".
    
    Steve                                     

.0  Your opinions are solicatied, in the hopes that a majority of parents,
.0  future parents, agree that Europe is not a necessity age 13.
.0  And I know for a fact that if I was still married to her, that my son
.0  wouldn't be going to Europe at age 13, no way no how, period.


Dear Non-Custodial Parent, who feels like a Wallet!!

	It sounds to me like you only want people who agree with you
to respond.   Well the good news is that no one will tell you "Europe is
a necessity".   The bad news is you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

	You come across to me as controlling.

	This isn't supposed to cost you a dime.   How your ex chooses
to spend her money is her business.   If you don't want to take my
word for it, go ask the judge.

	re: danger.  We aren't talking about Beruit here.    There is
danger here also.   Unless you can establish the supervising group has
a lousy track record it would be difficult to make a case for there is
much more danger there than here.   How long has this group been
organizing exchanges, and what is their problem rate.   By the way,
did you worry about the kids being molested at Camp Lawrence ??

	Lots of people never get to travel.   What a wonderful thing that
your kid will have an opportunity, not only to see the sites, but to
meet some of the people.

.0  14) I haven't been on a 3 week vacation to Europe, and I work for
.0      a living.
	Sounds like sour grapes to me.    Some parents are glad when
their kids get opportunities they never had.

	My guess is you didn't read this far, but if you did my advice
is to tell your exwife you are concerned the kid may not have a good time,
but if he wants to go it would be a wonderful opportunity.

	If you persist in being negative, and unsupportive of what your
kids want to do, your relationship with them will be unfulfilling for
all of you.

	Be supportive.   Go to the library and get travel guides and read
them with your son.   Talk with him about the neat things he'll see.
Maybe get some language tapes and learn a little before he goes.
You will grow in his eyes.
 

    My daughter went to Europe at age 14 with a school trip (not People to
    People though).  She arrived in London the day the IRA bombed a subway 
    station -- yes I was a nervous wreck the entire time she was gone 
    (2 weeks), would I let her again -- YES.  She came back with the most 
    wonderful stories of what she saw, getting lost, meeting people in 
    different countries, long bus trips, different cultures, etc.  It's an
    experience she still talks about (3 years later) and one I know she'll
    never forget.  My ex paid 1/3, I paid 1/3 and she had to save 1/3 plus
    most of her spending money.  It showed us she was serious about wanting
    to go.
    
    I agree with the previous responses.  Find out everything you can about
    the trip and how it's run.  They usually have parent meetings to answer
    questions.  Attend them.  
    
    cindy

>Dear Non-Custodial Parent, who feels like a Wallet!!

>       It sounds to me like you only want people who agree with you
>to respond.   Well the good news is that no one will tell you "Europe is
>a necessity".   The bad news is you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Yes I admit, I wanted to have opinions that backed mine, but at least
    I asked for opinions.

>
>       You come across to me as controlling.

    Controlling, I don't think so.  The Wallet has basically no control.
    I couldn't get custody, until she is proved a bad mother, I know I
    asked the judge.  I never was proven a bad dad, nor she a good mother.

>         This isn't supposed to cost you a dime.   How your ex chooses
>to spend her money is her business.   If you don't want to take my
>word for it, go ask the judge.

    Ah, hate to disagree, but I pay lot's of child support, that isn't
    matched by her.  Doesn't go to the kids, can go anywhere she wants.
    And again the fact that a "JUDGE" backs her/women up, doesn't make
    it fair nor right.


>        re: danger.  We aren't talking about Beruit here.    There is
>danger here also.

    Hate to disagree with you again, but Paris looks more and more like
    Beirut all the time.  Parents aren't letting the kids out, bombs
    going off all the time.  I don't want my kid there.

>       My guess is you didn't read this far, but if you did my advice
>is to tell your exwife you are concerned the kid may not have a good time,
>but if he wants to go it would be a wonderful opportunity.

    Go jump in a lake.
    Where do you get this one.  You don't have a controlling streak in you
    do you, or is it that you're narrow minded.  I asked for opinions,
    the fact that they are running 6-0 against is okay with me.  I don't need
    your stinky inferences.


>       If you persist in being negative, and unsupportive of what your
> kids want to do, your relationship with them will be unfulfilling for
> all of you.


    Negative and unsupportive.  Get a life.  I support, encourage, and
    otherwise entertain my kids.  Because I don't want him in Europe, when
    I've asked him to go the Museum of Fine Arts, etc, and got a "boring"
    for an answer, doesn't make me unsupportive.

>  14) I haven't been on a 3 week vacation to Europe, and I work for
>      a living.
>      Sounds like sour grapes to me.    Some parents are glad when
>      their kids get opportunities they never had.


    Sour grapes, tuff *hit.  They rent an apartment, I rent an apartment.
    My child support should go on supporting them with clothes food,
    etc.  If they can save the money, lots of it is money that should have
    been spent on the both of the kids.  I have no say on where the money
    goes, and no power to make her match my contribution.

    And as it looks like to me, no say on whether my kid can travel to
    Europe, when I am against it.

    Like I said, I don't have a problem with them all going on a Vacation.
    I have a problem with the "gifted" one getting the thunder, when the
    younger one is in my opinion, just as capable and deserving.

    But even if you all disagree with me, it doesn't make you right nor
    me wrong.  We disagree, and I bet lot's of people who agree with me,
    just won't write.  This isn't a survey with a +/- 3% margin of error.
    These opinions  aren't statistically scientific.  I do appreciate the
    inputs, except for the above rebutted comments, but I'm hard pressed
    to be swayed over to the other side of the coin.

    The fact that he saves the money or earns it doesn't matter to me one
    bit.


    Just exactly does "Joint Legal" custody mean.

    That the Mother can decide whatever she wants, and if the father
    doesn't like it, his nose gets out of joint!


    rep .4.   Yes this is "People to People".  I'll drop you a line later.
              Thanks.

    
    As George said in .1, it doesn't matter much what you think.  She has
    "primary care provided" (ie full time custody) and you have the child
    support.  Joint Legal custody is a farce.  It gives you access to some
    of their school records, ability to get medical attention for the
    kids, etc that you wouldn't have without Joint Legal, but gives you no
    say in what the kids can/can't do.  About the only thing you can do is,
    as George said, try to document your objections, then if anything does
    happen to the son, you have a case for her endangering the kids and
    for change of custody.

    fred()

I agree with the previous the responces here.

I think you shoul find out mor about the trip and talk to your son about it.

I think it would be a great experience - I spent two weeks on exchange in
France when I was fourteen and still think about it.

I've taken my Daughter to l'Louvre but haven't really bothered with the Mueseum
of fine arts - basicly it's a very different experience. Her view of museums is
that they are boring but she enjoyed l'Louvre.

The bombings come and go and get highly reported but I still don't think a day
in Paris is any more dengerous than a day in NYC. But then the IRRA didn't
deter me from going to Belfast in '79.

I can see that you feel very strongly about this decision. I know when I feel
that strongly I am on dangerous ground because it is when I am least lightly to
consider another viewpoint. I think it might be a good idea to look at the
reason's you want to stop your son from going. I know you have outlined some
excuses but I mean the reasons that you want to control this situation.

I didn't like the tone of note 193.7. Views were sought and the response to
those views was significant abuse.

>Go jump in a lake.
>Get a life.
>Sour grapes, tuff *hit.

controlling ???  No, 

Protective, concerned,, yes !

My daughter went to Washington D.C. with her class 
this spring, and yea, my wife and I were a nervous wreck 
first few days,, but she had some of the best times she's 
ever known as a teenager, and she'll never forget the 
experience.

I know Washington is a lot different than Europe, but
from our point of view, it didn't matter when we were
waving good by,,, she was 'going on a trip' and anything
can happen,  That's part of life..

What you have to decide is whether or not you want to allow
your children to experience this, or shelter them from
it...    it's a big choice on your part.

plus If he really really really wants to go, you're gonna be
the bad guy, and when all his friends come back, with their
stories to tell, your son will feel like sh*t, and so won't
you...

I know these decisions aren't easy, if they were, being
a parent wouldn't be the challange it is..

I agree with a previous comment, if you're as concerned
as you appear, do some homework, as questions, get nosey,
if the organization is up front, they'll welcome your
concern...

good luck..

/ray

I can understand your concern.  I have a 13 year old son, too.  Amsterdam at age
13 could be more of an education than you'd like him to have yet - but it really
depends upon the level and quality of supervision he'll receive.

Considering he'll be staying with host families, and bringing spending money,
$3,700 does sound a little high, but the money isn't your concern.  Sounds like
more research is needed.  Europe sounds like a senior class trip, not 8th grade,
and a little extravagant for apartment dwellers - my priorities tend to align more
with yours.

tim

    One thing I don't think you shoudl be terribly worried about is the
    bombing in Paris.  
    
    From all I read over here, you're much more likely to become dead
    walking down a USAan street than from a terrorist bomb in Europe.  This
    isn't a flame against the USA; I'm just trying to put things in
    proportion.
    
    //alan

    Sounds like a wonderful/fantastic/incredible opportunity!

    How lucky you are to have your son be recognized as a child
    who might benefit from such a trip.

    I don't have any children so perhaps you (and others) will
    ignore this, but it seems to me you only get to raise your
    kid once.  It may be trite, but children really are the
    future and I think parents ought to take every opportunity
    to expand the horizons of their children and allow them
    the experiences necessary to be happy and successful into
    the 21st century.  20 years from now do you think your
    son will remember this time and despair that he had to wear 
    old clothes for a while and didn't get the games he wanted 
    for Christmas, or do you think he'll recall the amazing
    trip to Europe and know his loving and supportive parents
    made it happen?  I'm assuming you're concerned about the
    expense ("too extravagant" - Hardly.  Enriching the life of
    one's child should be of the highest priority, IMO, and worth
    a little sacrifice). 

    As for the danger - with all due respect your concerns about 
    Paris are misplaced. A friend returned from Paris just days ago.  
    Bombs are NOT going off "all the time" and there are plenty of
    children out and about on the streets (where do you get your 
    information?)

    You mention your son has responded to your invitation(s) to
    the Museum of Fine Arts with, "boring" - I'm not surprised.
    Sometimes we don't recognize things of value in our own
    backyard until we see and learn about things that are valued
    elsewhere.  We could be talking about art or music or history...
    or the importance of family and community.  Sometimes it
    takes the new perspective of an "alien" culture to make us
    appreciate our own.  

    This is probably most presumptuous, but I can't get over 
    the feeling that this is less about the expense and the
    presumed danger to your son, and more about your relationship
    with your ex and...maybe something else (I've no idea what).

    I hope you can work through whatever fear and/or anger you
    have surrounding this and are able to help your son with
    an exciting adventure.

    Kind regards,

    /Greg

    As for your son 'getting into drugs, etc.' My mom always used to say
    "kids get what they want no matter where they are" I would be more
    worried about your son at home where he is comfortable as opposed to
    2000 miles away where he will be scared.
    
    I was 11 years old when I travelled with my swim team to Halifax from
    Ontario, I stayed with total strangers, I survived.
    
    What is this walking wallet crap didn't you realize before you got
    married what kinds of things could happen to you? And you married
    again? Don't tell me: "this one is going to work for sure", yeah,
    right.
    
    To be honest you sound like an unreasonably paranoid parent. It also
    sounds like you are jealous of your ex-wife and all the money you have
    to give her. But you insisted on being married again, did you sign a
    pre-nuptual with the second? If you didn't then send your son to Europe
    he will need all the experience he can get .
    
    chris
    

    I think you have thought this situation out very thoroughly. You are
    very clear about your reasons.  Many of the other noters have responded
    regarding their experiences and reasons they think that maybe you
    might want to consider lettering him go. But, the bottom line is that
    your simply not confortable with him going.  That should be respected.
    (your reasons and feelings), after all, thats what parents are for:
    i.e. to guide and lead their children based on the parents best
    judgement.  It sounds to me as if this would be a closed issue if you
    had some real control over your son as a custodial parent.  The issue
    isn't really over whether he should go.... you have decided that he
    shouldn't. Fine. Now the job is to work that out with your ex. 
    
    Good luck with this... its a tough situation your in.
    
    Jeff

    
    Unlike .15, I don't know that you've thought the situation out very
    thoroughly at all.  You never gave concrete reasons for you not wanting
    your son to go other than the possibility of molestation and drug use,
    (which are also problems that are prevalent in American society as well) 
    but  you have given us plenty of negatives on your ex's
    spending habits, and where your child support money goes, etc... The
    bottom line is that whether or not your ex-wife owns a house of
    allocates your child-support money to your likings is irrelevant in
    this case.  I mean, she can't be doing all bad if she can even afford
    to contemplate sending your son to Europe.
    
    At age 15, I went to Europe for 6 weeks with People to People, and had
    a WONDERFUL time.  There were 13 kids in my group, and we split up into
    groups of about 3-4 and stayed in the  homes of varios host families. 
    During the day, we met at designated places (the group of 13 kids,
    chaperones and tour guides) and took part in structured, scheduled
    activities.  I valued being able to stay with the host families because
    it gave us an opportunity not only to see the tourist attractions that
    everybody goes to Europe to see, but also to gain insight on the way
    that families in other cultures actually LIVED.  It really enhanced my
    trip, and I came away with a greater appreciation and understanding of
    my own culture and others. 
    
    These families go through an extensive screening process, and never
    once did I feel threatened or uncomfortable.
    

Dear Basenoter,
    
    while I can easily immagine you being worried about such an important
    trip at 13, still I cannot agree on many of the reasons you give. Many
    already expressed my same ideas on many of your points so I won't
    reiterate them all now.

    Before getting into the nitty gritty of what you wrote let me just add 
    something, though.

    My take on your writing both in here and in WOMANOTES is that your point
    is all but the list of items you put down in the basenote. What I
    perceive is that the main point is between you and your ex with
    reference to parenting rights/duties versus the kids. 

    I guess I can understand your fear of being left out from the big
    decisions field but I do not think that "DAD says no" will do much good
    in here.

    You say that your parents would have said "It's no because I say so",
    I've heard it many times when I was a kid and I'll spare you what I
    think of it still today (...just for the records I'm 38 now).

    The world is running fast and statements like:

    "And I know for a fact that if I was still married to her, that my son
    wouldn't be going to Europe at age 13, no way no how, period."

    DO NOT WORK ANYMORE. Period. Oh well, they might at first but I doubt
    that in  the long run they bring home any good news.

    I hope for you that you can take the right decision and even most
    important the  right approach. I do not know how this things work in
    America, you might end up  preventing your son to go ... but if this
    happens in the way you  state it in the above lines I very much doubt
    that it will be a good record of yours into your sons book. And sorry
    to say it ... you are just at the very  beginning ...! The boys will
    grow older and I can already foresee quite a bit  of battle fields here
    and there ..!
    
    Moreover this is not a decision where you can end up with a compromise,
    he either goes or doesn't. So, if you are totally against it and
    your ex is totally in favour, somebody has got to have the last word,
    doesn't it? Why that one should be you? As well as why that one should
    be your ex of course. So I do not see any other way out a part for
    really understanding the situation and having real reasons to be or not
    to be against it. 
    
    When you wrote the basenote, you didn't even know the name of the
    organization.... you just knew that you were against it and many others
    in the notes files already showed you that at least some of your
    statements do not hold valid.
    
    Now for the nitty gritty ...

    >>>    3)   ... I feel that if the oldest gets to go 
    >>>    than the younger brother will feel left out, and possibly inferior, 
    >>>    which he is not.

    While I firmly believe that the two brothers should get equal
    opportunities, I also think it doesn't have to happen exactly at the
    same time. If the older goes now on this trip, plans can be made to
    offer the same opportunity to the younger one when he will be 13 as
    well. You could even plan special time for the two of you when Mr.
    Older Brother is away.
                                                                 
    >>>    4)  Amsterdam is a very permissive city....

    Amsterdam is not only that. Amsterdam is also a stunning beautiful
    city. I've been there often and each time my heart is full of its
    beauty. I've been there with my kids (10 and 8) this past 'Xmas and
    they were delighted. As a side note, my 10 years old is also into the
    "...boring stuff" kind of attidute when I drag him into museum.

    And anyhow, I live in Europe and I've been to USA only a couple of
    times. What I read from here about american cities and lifestyles in
    there, make me think that Paris bombs or Amsterdam drugs/sex displays
    are not that terrible afterall.... (well this was meant to be
    provocative, do not jump on me pls)
                                                                       
    >>>    13) My wife is a foreigner, from Europe.  We will have the
    >>>        opportunity 
    >>>        to take my kids to Europe in a couple of years ...

    Any chance that you don't want *your* gift to your kids to be spoiled
    by your ex shipping him to Europe before you are ready to afford it?
    Moreover both a family trip and a solo vacation can be fun, but they
    are not *by all means* the same thing.

    Best of luck, 

    Ciao graziella

    To the originator of the question / topic.
    
    I'm not into all the complicated bits about ex's etc....
    
    However from a purely practical and informative view, I can offer the
    following info and point:
    
    Paris Bombs - Think all this is hyped up by the media. Yes, sure these
    terrible things do happen, BUT get it into perspective!!
    The chances of coming across anything like last ARE VERY RARE. (being
    at a certain place at a certain time)
    You have more chances of getting injured in a car accident.
    
    Host families - Wake up please! Most of these families do "hosting" to
    bring in a little extra cash. Not merely for the love of it - thats
    reality I'm afraid.
    
    Yes, all this student travel stuff is big business and alot of people
    are making a lot of money out of it. BTW I'm not one of them.
    
    Travelling around Euope.
    It's a BIG PLACE - Most likely bigger than the average American can
    imagine. You can't "DO EUROPE" in a few weeks. You'll only see the
    edited highlights - as long as that is understood - no problem.
    The age of 13 is too young in my opinion. From a security point of view
    and also from the side of appreciation of what is to be seen and taken
    in. Better idea to wait a few years, when there is more time to come
    over and soak in all the very different cultures etc....
    
    Amsterdam - yes sure drugs are more freely available but so are they in
    other provincial cities, especially in the UK. Another reason to be a bit
    more clued up/older and wiser. Still too young.
    
    I reckon that with the amount of money which is being suggested, you'd
    be smart to hang on on a few years and then if he's still keen let him
    spend a few months  travelling around maybe with some friends and seing
    it all first hand, rather than in " Mac Europe style.
    ........now - would you like The leaning tower of Pisa thrown in with
    your Eiffel tower, sir??"
    
    Hope you get my drift.
    
    Cheers,
    Vic
    
                                    
    

    Just to add to my earlier reply (.4), my son was recently invited by
    People to People to participate as a member of a delegation to China
    next summer.  He attended an informational meeting this past Monday
    night with his mother, and depending upon his interest, we will do what 
    we can to see if we can make it happen, if that's what he'd like.  The 
    previous trip to Australia and New Zealand was such a positive experience 
    that I can't say enough good things about the People to People 
    organization. 
    
    Steve
    

    I wish I'd seen this note sooner.  My SO and I sent (paid for) my
    step-daughter's trip to Australia, sponsored by People to People.  When
    we were first faced with this decision, we felt then, and still do,
    that the life experience associated with this opportunity is
    invaluable.  As expected, my step-daughter has become responsible,
    culturally aware, and has matured in leaps and bounds!  She was 13,
    also.  Her mother, the custodial parent, and that entire side of the
    family were against it.  We took out a loan, sold raffle tickets, and
    she saved every penny for babysitting and other odd jobs.  With the
    exception of her mother, at the last minute, no one from that side of
    the family supported her.  Now, they wished they had.
    
    Much like you, her younger brother is treated as inferior.  He is ADHD,
    but just as bright and with all the same potential.  If I have to sell
    my hair, we'll send him too!
    
    This life experience is the head-start this generation needs.  We
    didn't learn such things until we were in our late 20's because we
    didn't have to.  Children today are learning, growing, moving at the
    speed of light, and too many of them will never have the opportunity to
    catch up if they don't keep up!!!
    

    G'day,
    
    Coming in late on this conversation....
    
    I believe that at 13, he should be ready for a well supervised trip.
    
    
    I believe that it could be a deal that #2 son is offered a trip when he
    is 13/14.
    
    
    If Europe is not a happy place, what about Australia and New Zealand?
    (yes we have had an unhappy event, but that stunned the nation!)
    
    When I lived in the UK, we hosted a French lad (twice) and a french
    lass. We enjoyed having them visit and made nothing onthe deal - except
    thatmy kids learnt some french!
    
    Four months on - what is teh outcome? Is he going or not?
    
    
    derek
    .