Conference quark::mennotes

a sobering insight of the oklahamo city bombing is that this might be the
action of right wing extremists who were/are associated with right wing
militias.

below are extracts from a research article on right wing militias. highlights 
are provided on the anti government sentiment of the extreme right and on
factors contributing to the spread of the militant right wing.

the research article quoted here is entered in full in the next reply.

andreas.



factors contributing to the growth of the far right wing movements:

> One is the end of the Cold War. For over 40 years, the "international 
> communist conspiracy" held plot-minded Americans in thrall. But with the 
> collapse of the Soviet empire, their search for enemies turned toward the 
> federal government, long an object of simmering resentment.
> 
> The other factors are economic and social. While the Patriot movement provides
> a pool of potential recruits for the militias, it in turn draws its members 
> from a large and growing number of U.S. citizens disaffected from and 
> alienated by a government that seems indifferent, if not hostile, to their 
> interests. This predominantly white, male, and middle- and working-class 
> sector has been buffeted by global economic restructuring, with its attendant 
> job losses, declining real wages and social dislocations. While under 
> economic stress, this sector has also seen its traditional privileges and 
> status challenged by 1960s-style social movements, such as feminism, minority
> rights, and environmentalism.


anti-government sentiment based on conspiracy theory:

>                                     The militias have close ties to the 
> older and more broadly based "Patriot" movement, from which they emerged, 
> and which supplies their worldview. Accordingto Chip Berlet, an analyst at 
> Political Research Associates in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who has been 
> tracking the far right for over two decades, this movement consists of loosely
> linked organizations and individuals who perceive a global conspiracy in 
> which key political and economic events are manipulated by a small group of 
> elite insiders.

or as formulated by one militia organisation:

> "The time has come to renew our commitment to high moral values and wrench
> the control of the government from the hands of the secular humanists and the
> self-indulging special interest groups including private corporations." 

for extreme right wingers, government is only acceptable up to the county
boundary:

> The County Rule movement and the militias share an ideological kinship, 
> revolving around the idea, long popular in far-right circles, that the 
> county is the supreme level of government and the sheriff the highest 
> elected official.

from "http://www.well.com/user/srhodes/militia.html"
 

By Daniel Junas

(Re-Printed with Permission from Covert Action Quarterly)

Winter is harsh in western Montana. Short days, bitter cold and heavy snows enforce
the isolation of the small towns and lonely ranches scattered among the broad river
valleys and high peaks of the Northern Rockies. But in February 1994 - the dead of
winter - a wave of fear and paranoia strong enough to persuade Montanans to brave the,
elements swept through the region. Hundreds of people poured into meetings in small
towns to hear tales of mysterious black helicopters sighted throughout the United States
and foreign military equipment moving via rail and flatbed truck across the country, in
preparation for an invasion by a hostile federal government aided by U.N. troops
seeking to impose a New World Order.

    In Hamilton (pop. 1,700), at the base of the Bitterroot Mountains dividing
Idaho and Montana, 250 people showed up; 200 more gathered in Eureka (pop. 1,000),
ten miles from the Canadian border. And 800 people met in Kalispell, at the foot of
Glacier National Park. Meeting organizers encouraged their audiences to form citizens'
militias to protect themselves from the impending military threat.1

Most often, John Trochmann, a wiry, white-haired man in his fifties, led the meetings.
Trochmann lives near the Idaho border in Noxon (pop. 270), a townwell-suited for
strategic defense. A one-lane bridge over the Clark Fork River is the only means of
access, and a wall of mountains behind the town makes it a natural fortress against
invasion. From this bastion, Trochmann, his brother David, and his nephew Randy run
the Militia of Montana (MOM), a publicity-seeking outfit that has organized "militia
support groups"2 and pumped out an array of written and taped tales of a sinister global
conspiracy controlling the U.S. government. MOM also proides "how to" materials for
organizing citizens' militias to meet this dark threat.

Militia Mania

It is difficult to judge from attendance at public meetings how many militias and
militia members there might be in Montana, or if, as is widely rumored, they are
conducting military training and exercises. The same applies across the country; there is
little hard information on how many are involved or what they are actually doing.

But the Trochmanns are clearly not alone in raising fears about the federal government
nor in sounding the call to arms. By January, movement watchers had identified militia
activity in at least 40 states, with a conservatively estimated hard-core membership of
at least 10,000 - and growing.3

    The appearance of armed militias raises the level of tension in a region
already at war over environmental and land use issues.

A threat explicitly tied to militias occurred in November 1994, at a public hearing in
Everett, Washington. Two men approached Ellen Gray, an Audubon Society activist.
According to Gray, one of them, later identified as Darryl Lord, placed a hangma's
noose on a nearby chair, saying, "This is a message for you." He also distributed cards
with a picture of a hangman's noose that said, "Teason = Death" on one side, and "Eco
fascists go home" on the other. The other man told Gray, "If we can't get you at the
ballot box, we'll get you with a bullet. We have a militia of 10,000."4 In a written
statement, Lord later denied making the threat, although he admitted bringing the
hangman's noose to the meeting.5

Militias, 'Patriots," and Angry White Guys

As important as environmental issues are in the West, they are only part of what is
driving the militia movement. The militias have close ties to the older and more
broadly based "Patriot" movement, from which they emerged, and which supplies their
worldview. Accordingto Chip Berlet, an analyst at Political Research Associates in
Cambridge, Massachusetts, who has been tracking the far right for over two decades,
this movement consists of loosely linked organizations and individuals who perceive a
global conspiracy in which key political and economic events are manipulated by a
small group of elite insiders.

On the far right flank of the Patriot movement are white supremacists and
anti-Semites, who believe that the world is controlled by a cabal of Jewish bankers.
This position is represented by, among others, the Liberty Lobby and its weekly
newspaper, the Spotlight. At the other end of this relatively narrow spectrum is the
John Birch Society, which has repeatedly repudiated anti- Semitism, but hews to its
own paranoid vision. For the Birchers, it is not the Rothschilds but such institutions as
the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the U.N. which
secretly call the shots.6

This far-right milieu is home to a variety of movements, including Identity Christians,
Constitutionalists, tax protesters, and remnants of the semi-secret Posse Comitatus.
Members of the Christian right who subscribe to the conspiratorial world view
presented in Pat Robertson's 1991 book, The New World Order, also fall within the
movement's parameters.7 Berlet estimates that as many as five million Americans
consider themselves Patriots.8

While the Patriot movement has long existed on the margins of U.S. society, it has
grown markedly in recent years.9 Three factors have sparked that growth.

One is the end of the Cold War. For over 40 years, the "international communist
conspiracy" held plot-minded Americans in thrall. But with the collapse of the Soviet
empire, their search for enemies turned toward the federal government, long an object
of simmering resentment.

The other factors are economic and social. While the Patriot movement provides a pool
of potential recruits for the militias, it in turn draws its members from a large and
growing number of U.S. citizens disaffected from and alienated by a government that
seems indifferent, if not hostile, to their interests. This predominantly white, male, and
middle- and working-class sector has been buffeted by global economic restructuring,
with its attendant job losses, declining real wages and social dislocations. While under
economic stress, this sector has also seen its traditional privileges and status challenged
by 1960s-style social movements, such as feminism, minority rights, and
environmentalism.

Someone must be to blame. But in the current political context, serious progressive
analysis is virtually invisible, while the Patriot movement provides plenty of answers.
Unfortunately, they are dangerously wrong-headed ones.10

Ruby Ridge and Waco

Two recent events inflamed Patriot passions and precipitated the formation of the
militias. The first was the FBI's 1992 confrontation with white supremacist Randy
Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in which federal agents killed Weaver's son and wife.
The second was the federal government's destruction of David Koresh and his followers
at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, in April 1993.11

Key promoters of the militia movement repeatedly invoke Ruby Ridge and Waco as
spurs to the formation of militias to defend the citizenry against a hostile federal
government. 

The sense of foreboding and resentment of the federal government was compounded by
the passage of the Brady Bill (imposing a waiting period and background checks for the
purchase of a handgun) followed by the Crime Bill (banning the sale of certain types of
assault rifles). For some members of the Patriot movement, these laws are the federal
government's first step in disarming the citizenry, to be followed by the much dreaded
United Nations invasion and the imposition of the New World Order.12

But while raising apocalyptic fears among Patriots, gun control legislation also angered
more mainstream gun owners. Some have become newly receptive to conspiracy
theorists and militia recruiters, who justify taking such a radical step with the Second
Amendment: 

 "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
 right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Right-wing organizers have long used the amendment to justify the creation of armed
formations. The Ku Klux Klan began as a militia movement, and the militia idea has
continued to circulate in white supremacist circles. It has also spread within the
Christian right. In the early 1990s, the Coalition on Revival, an influential national
Christian right networking organization, circulated a 24-plank action plan. It advocated
the formation of "a countywide 'well-regulated militia' according to the U.S.
Constitution under the control of the county sheriff and Board of Supervisors."13

Like the larger Patriot movement, the militias vary in membership and ideology. In the
East, they appear closer to the John Birch Society. In New Hampshire, for example, the
15-member Constitution Defense Militia reportedly embraces garden variety U.N
conspiracy fantasies and lobbies against gun control measures.14

In the Midwest, some militias have close ties to the Christian right, particularly the
radical wing of the anti-abortion movement. In Wisconsin, Matthew Trewhella, leader
of Missionaries to the Preborn, has organized paramilitary training sessions for his
churchmembers.15

And in Indianapolis, Linda Thompson, the self-appointed "Acting Adjutant General of
the Unorganized Militia of the U.S.A.," called for an armed march on Washington last
September to demand an investigation of the Waco siege. Although she canceled the
march when no one responded, she remains an important militia promoter.16 While
Thompson limits her tirades to U.S. law enforcement and the New World Order, her
tactics have prompted the Birch Society to warn its members "to stay clear of her
schemes."17

Despites light variations in their motivations, the militias fit within the margins of the
Patriot movement. And a recurring theme for all of them is a sense of deep frustration
and resentment against the federal government.

Nowhere has that resentment been felt more deeply than in the Rocky Mountain West, a
hotbed of such attitudes since the frontier era. The John Birch Society currently has a
larger proportional membership in this region than in any other.18 Similarly, the Rocky
Mountain West is where anti-government presidential candidate Ross Perot ran
strongest.

And nowhere in the West is anti-goverrunent sentiment stronger than along the spine
of wild mountains that divide the Idaho panhandle from Montana. In the last two
decades, this pristine setting has become a stomping ground for believers in Christian
Identity, a religious doctrine that holds that whites are the true Israelites and that blacks
and other people of color are subhuman ,'mud people'."19

In the mid-1970s, Richard Butler, a neo-Nazi from California who is carrying out a
self-described war against the "Zionist Occupational Government," or "ZOG,"
relocated to the Idaho panhandle town of Hayden Lake to establish his Aryan Nations
compound. He saw the Pacific Northwest, with its relatively low minority population,
as the region where God's kingdom could be established. Butler also believed that a
racially pure nation needs an army.20

Butler is aging, and his organization is mired in factional disputes. But he has helped
generate a milieu in which militias can thrive. In May 1992, one of his neighbors and
supporters, Eva Vail Lamb, formed the Idaho Organized Militia. During the same year,
Lamb was also a key organizer for presidential candidate Bo Gritz (rhymes with
"whites"), another key player in the militia movement.21

Bo Gritz and the Origins of the Militias

A former Green Beret, Ret. Lt. Col. Gritz is a would-be Rambo, having led several
private missions to Southeast Asia to search for mythical U.S. POWs. He also has a
lengthy Patriot pedigree. With well -documented ties to white supremacist leaders, he
has asserted that the Federal Reserve is controlled by eight Jewish families.22 In 1988,
he accepted the vice-presidential nomination of the Populist Party, an electoral
amalgam of neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, and other racist and anti-Semitic
organizations.23 His running mate was ex-klansman David Duke. Gritz later
disavowed any relationship with Duke, but in 1992, Gritz was back as the Populist
Party's candidate for president.

    He has emerged as a mentor for the militias. During the 1992 campaign, he
encouraged his supporters to form militias,24 and played a key role in one of the events
that eventually sparked the militia movement, the federal assault on the Weaver family
compound at Ruby Ridge, Idaho.

In the mid-1980s, Randy Weaver, a machinist from Waterloo, Iowa, moved to Ruby
Ridge in Boundary County, the northernmost county in the panhandle. A white
supremacist who subscribed to anti-government conspiracy theories, he attended
Richard Butler's Aryan Nations congresses at least three times.25 And acting on the
long-held far right notion that the county ought to be the supreme level of government,
he even ran for sheriff of Boundary County.

But in 1991, after being arrested on gun charges, Weaver failed to show up for trial and
holed up in his mountain home. In August 1992, a belated federal marshals' effort to
arrest him led to a seige in which FBI snipers killed Weaver's wife and son, and
Weaver associate Kevin Harris killed a federal marshal. Gritz appeared on the scene
and interposed himself as a negotiator between the FBI and Weaver. He eventually
convinced Weaver to surrender and end the 11-day standoff. The episode gave Gritz
national publicity and made him a hero on the right.26

He moved quickly to exploit both his new-found fame and the outrage generated by the
Weaver killings. In February 1993, Gritz initiated his highly profitable SPIKE training
- Specially Prepared Individuals for Key Events. The ten-part traveling program draws
on Gritz's Special Forces background and teaches a rigorous course on survival and
paramilitary techniques. Gritz - who has already instructed hundreds of Christian
Patriots in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, California, and elsewhere - recommends the
training as essential preparation for militia members.27

MOM

The Randy Weaver shootout also led directly to the formation of the Trochmanns'
Militia of Montana (MOM). In September 1992, during the Ruby Ridge standoff, John
Trochmann helped found United Citizens for Justice (UC-J), a support group for his
friend Weaver. Another steering committee member was Chris Temple, who writes
regularly for the Jubilee, a leading Christian Identity publication. Temple also worked
as a western Montana organizer for Gritz's presidential campaign. One of the earliest
mailing lists used to promote MOM came from UCJ.

But despite Trochmann's links to their adherents, white supremacist and Christian
Identity rhetoric is conspicuously absent from MOM literature.28 Instead, Trochmann
purveys the popular UN/New World Order conspiracy theory with an anti-corporate
twist. The cabal, he claims, intends to reduce the world's population to two billion by
the year 3000.29

At public events, he cite news accounts, government documents and reports from his
informal intelligence network. Trochmann also reports on the mysterious black
helicopters and ties them to the U.N. takeover plot. In one of his lectures, distributed on
a MOM videotape, he uses as evidence a map found on the back of a Kix cereal box
which divides the United States into ten regions, reflecting, he implies, an actual plan to
divide and conquer the nation.30

The Trochmanns give talks around the country and are part of a very effective
alternative media network which uses direct mail, faxes, videos, talk radio, TV, and
even computers linked to the Internet to sustain its apocalyptic, paranoid world view.31

The Trochmanns use all these venues to promote MOM materials, including an
organizing manual, "Militia Support Group," which provides a model military
structure for the militias and lays out MOM's aims: 

 "The time has come to renew our commitment to high moral values and wrench
 the control of the government from the hands of the secular humanists and the
 self-indulging special interest groups including private corporations." 32

It also reveals that MOM has recruited "Militia Support Groups" throughout the nation
into its intelligence network, which provides MOM with a steady stream of
information to feed into its conspiracy theories. Consequently, the Trochmanns were
well aware when trouble was brewing in another remote corner of the West.

The County Rule Movement

In Catron County, New Mexico, the militia movement has converged with some other
strands of the anti-govemment right to create a new challenge to federal power. Catron,
located in the desolate southwest of New Mexico and with a population of less than
3,000 people, has been the site of a novel legal challenge to federal control of public
lands. In what has become known as the County Rule movement, Catron was the first
county to issue a direct legal challenge to the federal government over those lands.

It grew out of a conflict between local ranchers and federal land managers over federal
grazing lands. County attorney James Catron, whose ancestors gave the county its name,
joined forces with Wyoming attorney Karen Budd, a long-time foe of environmental
regulation33 to produce the Catron County ordinances. These purport to give the county
ultimate authority over public lands - making it illegal for the U.S. Forest Service to
regulate grazing, even on its own lands.34

But such regulations also serve the interests of natural resource industries. Since it is
relatively easy for those industries to control county governments, the ordinances
provide them with a convenient end run around federal enviromnental laws and rules.
The Catron County legislation has since been disseminated throughout the West and
recently into the Midwest by the National Federal Lands Conference of Bountiful,
Utah, which is part of the anti-environmental Wise Use movement.35

Over 100 counties in the West have passed similar legislation, despite the ordinances'
shaky legal foundations. The Boundary County, Idaho, ordinances have been overturned
in state court, and federal court challenges to county rule legislation in Washington
state are expected to succeed; the U.S. Supreme Court has consistently upheld federal
government authority over federal lands.36

Nevertheless, the county rule movement has succeeded in shifting the balance of power
between the counties and the federal government, if through no other means than
intimidation. In Catron County, the sheriff has threatened to arrest the head of the local
Forest Service office. And the county also passed a resolution predicting "much
physical violence" if the federal government persists in trying to implement grazing
reform.37

In fact, a climate of hostility greets environmentalists throughout the West. Author
David Helvarg writes that there have been hundreds of instances of harassment and
physical violence in the last few years.38 Sheila O'Donnell, a California-based private
investigator who tracks harassment of environmentalists, concurs that intimidation is
on the rise.39

Catron County has been the scene of at least one such incident. Richard Manning, a
local rancher, planned to open a mill at the Challenger mine, on Forest Service land in
the Mogollon mountains. Forest Service and state regulators went to determine if toxic
mine tailings are leaching into watercourses. According to several Forest Service and
state officials, Manning threatened to meet any regulator with "a hundred men with
rifles." Manning denies having made the threat.40

Militias and the Power of the County

The County Rule movement and the militias share an ideological kinship, revolving
around the idea, long popular in far-right circles, that the county is the supreme level of
government and the sheriff the highest elected official.

"Posse Comitatus" - the name for a far-right, semi-secret anti-tax organization -
literally means "the power of the county." A militia has formed in Catron County,
quickly sparking an incident that demonstrates the high level of paranoia in the area.
Last September, two days after the militia held its first meeting, FBI and
National Guard officials arrived in Catron County to search for the body of a person
reportedly killed a year earlier in the nearby Mogollon mountains. Several militia
members refused to believe the official explanation and fled their homes for the
evening.41

Catron County may be a bellwether: The county rule and militia movements are
apparently converging. In October 1994, the monthly newsletter of the National Federal
Lands Conference featured a lead article that explicitly called for the formation of
militias. The article, which cited information provided by the Militia of Montana and
pro-militia organizations in Idaho and Arizona, closed by saying: 

 "At no time in our history since the colonies declared their independence from
 the long train of abuses of King George has our country needed a network of
 active militias across America to protect us from the monster we have allowed
 our federal government to become. Long live the Militia! Long live freedom!
 Long live government that fear [sic] the people!"42

Smoke on the Horizon

Such incendiary rhetoric, commonplace in the Patriot/Militia movement, makes an
armed confrontation between the government and militia members seem increasingly
likely. If past behavior is any guide, federal law enforcement agencies are all too ready
to fight fire with fire.

Obviously, militias do not pose a military threat to the federal government. But they do
threaten democracy. Armed militias fueled by paranoid conspiracy theories could make
the democratic process unworkable, and in some rural areas of the West, it is already
under siege.

As ominously, the militias represent a smoldering right-wing populism with real and
imagined grievances stoked by a politics of resentment and scapegoating -just a
demagogue away from kindling an american fascist movement.

The militia movement now is like a brush fire on a hot summer day, atop a high and dry
mountain ridge on the Idaho panhandle. As anyone in the panhandle can tell you, those
brush fires have a way of getting out of control. 

Daniel Junas is a Seattle-based political researcher and author of "The Religious Right
in Washington State," published by the ACLU of Washington. Research assistance by
Paul de Armond and David Neiwert.



References

1. Montana Human Rights Network, "A Season of Discontent: Militias,
Constitutionalists, and The Far Right in Montana," May 1994.

2. Paramilitary formations are illegal in Montana. Militia organizers skirt the law by
forming "support groups."

3. Interview with Chip Berlet, Dec. 21, 1994.

4. Diane Brooks, "Threats Replace Debate at Hearing," Seattle Times, Snohomish
edition, Nov. 15, 1994, p. B1; interview with Ellen Gray by Paul de Armond, Nov. 22,
1994.

5. Statement to the press, Nov. 16, 1994.

6. For Birch Society theories, see its magazine, The New American; also James Perloff, 
The Council on Foreign Relations and the American Decline (Belmont, Mass.: Western
Islands, 1988), and Dan Smoot, The Invisible Government (Belmont, Mass.: Western
Islands, 1965).

7. Pat Robertson, The New World Order (Irving, Tex.: New Publishers, 1991).

8. Berlet interview, op. cit.

9. Ibid. Berlet notes that the John Birch Society has rebounded from a low of 20,000
members and claims to have doubled its membership in recent years. Berlet believes
membership has probably increased by 10,000.

10. This analysis is based on interviews with long-time movement watcher Chip
Berlet, Feb. 6, 1995.

11. The behavior of federal law enforcement agencies merits criticism. Weaver and
actual shooter Kevin Harris were acquitted of muder charges in the death of a federal
agent during the siege. A December 1993 Justice Department report on the Weaver
stand-off found that FBI agents violated both bureau policies and constitutional
guidelines when they issued "rules of engagement" allowing agents to shoot any armed
adult. An Idaho procescutor's investigation continues, and FBI head Louis Freeh expects
two agents to be indicted. (Jerry Seper, "Probe of federal agents in siege killings
continutes," Washington Times, Feb. 13, 1995, p. A3). Similarly, the Justice
Department's Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas,
February 28 to April 19, 1993 faulted BATF and FBI performance, but found no cause
for indictments.

12. See "Under the Law of the Gun," Taking Aim (Militia of Montana newsletter), v. 1,
n.7, 1994, pp. 1-3.

13. Fred Clarkson, "HardCOR," Church and State, Jan. 1991, p.26.

14. Anti-Defamation League, Armed and Dangerous: Militias Take Aim at the Federal
Government, 1994, p.20.

15. John Goetz, "Missionaries' Leader Calls for Armed Miltia," Front Line Research,
Aug. 1994, pp. 1,3-4; Beth Hawkins, "Patriot Games," Metro Times (Detroit), Oct.
12-18, 1994, pp. 12-16.

16. Adam Parfrey and Jim Redden, "Patriot Games," Village Voice, Oct. 11, 1994, pp.
26-31.

17. Cited in Anti-Defamation League, op. cit., p. 12.

18. Charles Jeffrey Kraft, "A Preliminary Socio-Economic and State Demographic
Profile of the John Birch Society," Political Research Associates, 1991.

19. Leonard Zeskind, "The 'Christian Identity' Movement," National Council of
Churches, 1986.

20. In 1984, Butler's vision briefly materialized in the form of an Aryan Nations
offshoot led by Robert Jay Matthews. The Order committed a series of crimes,
including bank robberies, bombings, and the murder of Denber radio talk show host
Alan Berg. Matthews himself died in a shootout with police in December 1984 on
Whidbey Island, In Puget Sound near Seattle. See Robert Crawford, S.L. Gardiner,
Jonathan Mozzochi, and R.L. Taylor, The Northwest Imperative (Portland, Ore.:
Coalition for Human Dignity, 1994), p. 1.16.

21. Robert Crawford, S.L. Gardiner, Jonathan Mozzochi, "Patriot Games," Coalition
for Human Dignity Special Report, 1994.

22. Crawford, et al., Northwest Imperative, op. cit., p. 2.25; I. Gritz nonetheless denies
that he is a white supremacist. Phone interview by David Neiwert, Nov. 10, 1994.

23. Crawford, et al., Northwest Imperative, p. 1.32.

24. Montana Human Rights Network, op. cit., p. 7.

25. Philip Weiss, "Off the Grid," New York Times Magazine, January 8, 1995, pp.
24-33.

26. Weiss, op. cit.; Crawford, et al., Northwest Imperative, op. cit.,p. 2.27.

27. Phone interview by David Neiwert, op. cit.

28. Trochmann denies being a white supremacist. In 1990, however, he was a featured
speaker at an Aryan Nations congress and has since admitted travelling to the white
supremacist compound on at least four or five occasions. Interview by David Neiwert,
Nov. 15, 1994.

29. Ibid.

30. Militia of Montana Information Video and Intel Update, videotape, undated.

31. Interview with Ken Toole, president, Montana Human Rights Network, Jan. 9,
1995; Anti- Defamation League, "Armed and Dangerous: Militias Take Aim at the
Federal Government," 1994, pp. 7-9.

32. Militia of Montana, "Militia Support Group," undated.

33. Budd formerly worked for James Watt in the Interior Dept., as well as for Watt's
former employer, the anti-environment, corporate funded Mountain States Legal
Foundation. Barry Sims, "Private rights in public lands?"The Workbook (Albuquerque),
Summer 1993, p. 55.

34. Charles McCoy, "Catron County, N.M. Leads a Nasty Revolt Over
Eco-Protection," Wall Street Journal, Jan. 1995; Scott Reed, "The County Supremacy
Myth: Mendacious Myth Marketing," Idaho Law Review, v. 30, 1994, pp. 526-53;
interview with Tarso Ramos, Western States Center, Dec. 21, 1994.

35. The "Wise Use" movement has recently emerged as a potent political force in the
West. It is largely the brainchild of Ron Arnold, who has been helping logging, mining,
and agricultural corporations fight the environmental movment since the mid-1970s.
Since 1985 Arnold has headed the corporate- funded Center for the Defense of Free
Enterprise (CDFE), controlled by Alan Gottlied, a New right direct mail fundraiser
best known for his oppostion to gun control. See Alan Gotlieb, ed., The Wise Use
Agenda, (Bellevue, Wash.: Free Enterprise Press, 1989). The National Federal Lands
Conference supported the first Wise Use conference. See National Federal Lands
Conference brochure, 1994.

36. McCoy, op. cit.

37. Ibid.

38. David Helvarg, The War Against the Greens (San Francisco: Sierra Club Books,
1994), p. 326.

39. Interview, Jan. 9, 1995.

40. McCoy, op. cit.

41. Tony David, "Militia Members scatter as FBI, Guard turn up in Catron," 
Albuquerque Tribune, Sept. 14, 1994.

42. Jim Faulkner, "Why There is a Need for the Militia in America," Update, National
Federal Lands Conference, October 1994.

on-line information and background material on the oklahoma city bombing is 
available on the world wide web on:

	http://www.nando.net/newsroom/oksources.html   



andreas.

    .2 &.3 Thanks!

    
    You have to sift through a lot of garbage to get at the truth of
    this one, but so far, the only connection the guys that did the bombing
    had to any "right wing militia" is that they were kicked out of the
    Minnesota Militia for being wacco's.  I have no connection to any
    militia, nor do I even know anyone who does, but I find the "mainstream
    media" attempt to hang blame on everyone from the militias to Rush
    Limbaugh as odious as trying to blame the World Trade Center bombing on
    all Muslims or anyone with Near Eastern nationality.

    fred();

source: "gopher://ncjrs.aspensys.com:71/00/new/bombing2.txt"


In response to the terrorist bombing in Oklahoma city yesterday, NCJRS  
has gathered the following information for the criminal justice  
community.  Some of the information was produced by the Office of Justice  
Programs, some was garnered from other Federal agencies and private sources.
Please feel free to call or email NCJRS with any questions regarding this  
incident, and we will respond to the best of our abilities.   


To inquire about information relating to terrorism and terrorist  
activities, you may contact the following Federal agencies:


Department of Justice

        Public Information 202-514-2000
        FBI Press Office 202-324-3000

Department of State

        Office of the Coordinator for Counter-Terrorism 202-647-6575
        Overseas Advisory Council 202-663-0533

Department of Treasury
         
        Public Information 202-622-2960
        Fax-on-Demand 202-622-2040 (select report #225 for ATF press release)

Federal Emergency Management Association

        Office of Emergency Information and Pubic Affairs
        202-646-4600
        http://www.fema.gov/homepage.html

Department of Labor
        Office of Occupational Safety and Health
        202-219-6091
        http://www.crossnet.org/


The following tables appear in the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice  
Activities, 1993.   

Table3.164
____________________________________________________________
Explosive incidents reported to or  
investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms


By Type of Incident, 1976-80             

Type of incident                1976     1977    1978     1979     1980      
              
Total                           2,706    3,177   3,256    3,093    2,875     

Bombings                          870    1,058     963      901      922     

Recoveries and
seizures of explosives            579      853     987    1,167      908     

Incendiary bombings               352      339     446      346      368     
                                                                                           
Thefts of explosives              327      227     362      335      349     

Attempted bombings                319      319     287      179      163    

Attempted incendiary bombings     101       81      71       44       68

Hoax devices                       67      105      47       26       11

Noncriminal accidents              47       62      71       60       64

Threats to U.S. Department                                                         
of the Treasury facilities         44       33      22       35       22


By Type of Incident, 1981-85             

Type of incident                1981     1982     1983     1984     1985     
              
Total                           2,338    1,762    1,690    1,828    2,226     

Bombings                          805      597      575      648      720     

Recoveries and
seizures of explosives            637      503      499      566      828      

Incendiary bombings               329      235      164      155      151    
                                                                                           
Thefts of explosives              243      201      208      212      219      
  
Attempted bombings                152      127      131      144      169   
    
Attempted incendiary bombings      99       41       40       34       63   
     
Hoax devices                       12        8       15       10       17         

Noncriminal accidents              37       40       49       52       51       
  
Threats to U.S. Department                                                         
of the Treasury facilities         24       10        9        7        8          



By Type of Incident, 1986-90             

Type of incident                 1986     1987     1988     1989     1990    
               
Total                           2,432    2,228    2,507    2,960    3,541      

Bombings                          842      816      912    1,065    1,275      

Recoveries and
seizures of explosives            879      740      684      769      896      

Incendiary bombings               204      169      196      319      389    
    
Thefts of explosives              170      122      191      126      138      
  
Attempted bombings                167      157      189      268      298   
     
Attempted incendiary bombings      58       45       35       47      100  
      
Hoax devices                       75      127      253      317      404       

Noncriminal accidents              31       42       40       44       36       

Threats to U.S. Department                                                         
of the Treasury facilities          6       10        7        5        5          


By Type of Incident, 1991-92             

Type of incident                 1991     1992
              
Total                           3,961    4,638

Bombings                        1,585    1,911

Recoveries and
seizures of explosives            848    1,066

Incendiary bombings               414      582
                                                                                           
Thefts of explosives              127       93

Attempted bombings                380      384

Attempted incendiary bombings     111      112

Hoax devices                      438      448

Noncriminal accidents              56       39

Threats to U.S. Department                                                         
of the Treasury facilities          2        3


Note:  These figures are from reports to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (BATF) and other law enforcement agencies; these reports
may not include all explosives incidents.  "Explosives incidents" are any
explosives-involved situations that have an impact on BATF jurisdiction.  
"Bombings" are any incidents in which a device constructed with criminal
intent and using high explosives, low explosives, or blasting agents
explodes. This includes incidents where premature detonation occurs
during preparation, transportation, or placement of a device so
constructed.  "Attempted bombings" are incidents in which a device
designed or purposely contrived to detonate/ignite fails to function.  Intent
of activity was criminal in nature.  This pertains to malfunctioning,
recovered, and/or disarmed devices.  "Incendiary bombings" are
criminally-motivated bombing incidents in which an incendiary/chemical
device that induces burning is used "Hoax devices" are inactive or
"dummy" devices designed to appear as bombs or explosive materials.  
(Source, 1992, pp. 89, 90.)
        Bombing figures for the years 1976 and 1977 include 30 and 21
criminal accidents respectively, that were separately enumerated by the
Source.

Source:  U.S. Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms.  Explosives Incidents Report 1985, p 9; 1990, p. 11; 1992,
p. 13 (Washington, DC:  U.S. Department of the Treasury).  Table
adapted by SOURCEBOOK staff.  Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics,
1993.
************************************************************



Table 3.174
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrorist incidents  

By type of incident and target, United States, 1982-92 (aggregate)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              Number
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total                                         165


Type of incident                               
Bombing attacksa                              130
Malicious destruction of property             4
Acts of sabotage                              2
Hostile takeover                              4
Arson                                         8                 
Kidnapping; assaults; alleged          
  assassinations; assassinations;             11                       
Robbery; attempted robbery                    5
Hijacking                                     1        

Type of target
Private residence/vehicle                     18
Military personnel/establishments             33        
Educational establishments                    6
Commercial establishments                     60
State and United States government                     
   buildings/property                         31
Diplomatic establishments                     17
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:  See Note, table 3.173.

a  Includes detonated and undetonated devices, tear gas, pipe, and
firebombs.

Source:  U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
Terrorism in the United States, 1982-1992 (Washington, DC:  U.S.
Department of Justice, 1993), p. 10. Table adapted by SOURCEBOOK
staff.

                                       
Table 3.175
--_-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Casualties resulting from international terrorism involving U.S.
citizens

By type of casualty, 1981-93
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Total            Dead         Wounded                       
---------------------------------------------------------------------------  
  Total           2,197            586           1,611

1981                 47              7              40
1982                 19              8              11
1983                386            271             115
1984                 42             11              31
1985                195             38             157
1986                112             12             100
1987                 54              7              47
1988                232            192              40
1989                 34             15              19
1990                 44             10              34
1991                 21              7              14
1992                  3              2               1
1993              1,008              6           1,002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:  Terrorism is defined as premeditated, politically-motivated violence
perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or
clandestine State agents, usually intended to influence an audience.  
International terrorism is terrorism involving citizens or territory of more
than one country.  (Source, 1993, p. iv.) Data have been revised from
previous presentations by Source.

Source:  U.S. Department of State, Patterns of Global Terrorism:  1987,
p. 1; 1988, p. 4; 1989, p. 5; 1990, p. 37; 1992, p. 1; 1993, p. 1
(Washington, DC: U.S. Department of State).  Table adapted by the
SOURCEBOOK staff.                                                             
                        

Additional resources from NCJRS:

o       Hard copy of the tables from the Sourcebook, or the complete
        Sourcebook (free to local, state and Federal agencies [$6.00 to the
        general public].

o       The Severity of Crime (NCJ# 92326).

For information on how to order this document,  
email NCJRS at [email protected] or call (800) 581-3420.
.

re .5


was the oklahoma city bombing a politically motivated act of terrorism?
or was this the work of isolated individuals which have completely dropped 
out of society?

in a sense it would seem that politically motivated terrorism is much easier
to deal with than random acts of violence by social drop-outs.

as the last 30 years have shown, politicians have the means to successfully 
counter politically motivated terrorism by negotiation and by reaching 
settlements (as in the cases of the PLO, the ANC and the IRA) or by uprooting
the extremists organisations (as in the case of the RAF in germany and the
red brigades in italy).

but how can society protect itself against random acts of violence whose
only goal appear to be, to be as gruesome as possible?
there appear to be only to alternatives: either our societies prepare to learn 
to live with such random acts of violence or we move towards a totally 
controlled society where movements of individuals, weapons and ammunitions are
monitored at every instance.


andreas.

    
    re .7

>was the oklahoma city bombing a politically motivated act of terrorism?
>or was this the work of isolated individuals which have completely dropped 
>out of society?

    It appears to be the latter.  Although the press is trying to make
    the former out of it.  The bombers were nut-cases that had been
    kicked out of the militia.  They thought they were retaliating for
    the Waco, Tx. incident where BATF raided the Davidian compound.

>in a sense it would seem that politically motivated terrorism is much easier
>to deal with than random acts of violence by social drop-outs.

    George Washington said, "If they have a legitimate grievance, then 
    redress the grievance.  If they do not have a grievance, then bring
    down the full weight of the law upon them".

>but how can society protect itself against random acts of violence whose
>only goal appear to be, to be as gruesome as possible?
>there appear to be only to alternatives: either our societies prepare to learn 
>to live with such random acts of violence or we move towards a totally 
>controlled society where movements of individuals, weapons and ammunition are
>monitored at every instance.

    For once we agree on something.  Not to belittle the OKC, but to some
    extent such incidents are the price we pay to live in a free society.
    The only way to stop them is to shut down the free society.

    fred();

<but how can society protect itself against random acts of violence
<whose only goal appear to be, to be as gruesome as possible?

Can't, and this is what is what makes matters worse...

We used to be one of the societies that at least appeared to have
respect for freedom, and life, but something has happened to us in
the last 15 to 20 years, and layer by layer, the skin of morales in
this country is being peeled back, soon won't be anything left..
We'll be as numb to seens like in Oklahoma as the Middle easterners
must have gotten used to what they see everyday..  How you can be
accustomed to that is beyond me..

What's the cure ???  How do ya stop the hatred responsible for
what happened last week ?  This is getting too wierd,,, time to
find another planet!

I wonder how long it will take for places like Miami, Boston, and L.A.
to start looking more like Beruit and Lebanon than Miami, Boston, and L.A.

Somethings about to break, and I think the craps really gonna go down when
it does....  

People responsible for this need to hang till they rot off the ropes...

    I heard on the radio yesterday that congressman Zeliff (R-NH) will be
    opening hearings (scheduled before OKA) on the handling of the Waco
    incident.
    
    Many people have a real problem with Waco. Understand that David Koresh
    was something else and some of his followers appear to have had a
    firefight with a botched inept arrest raid upon his place. This does
    not however excuse the feds from killing 90 men women and yes children.
    
    How can it be that these people lost their lives anon NO ONE lost their
    job in the BATF of FBI. Doesn't this scare some of you.
    
    And for the record, I am not in any militia. I am a concerned American
    who believes that there is something seriously wrong when you can label
    some people (in this case) religious extrerists and justify their
    killing. Will the government label you some day...?

>                                                I am a concerned American
>   who believes that there is something seriously wrong when you can label
>   some people (in this case) religious extrerists and justify their
>   killing. Will the government label you some day...?

unless i misunderstand you totally here, you are saying that your government
first labeled and then killed some 90 people in cold blood.

this is quite contrary to the reports in the press. recall that the fire 
killing the people was set in the compound itself. the FBI may perhaps wrongly
have taken the calculated risk of mass suicide when they forced a surrender  
by using armored vehicles to punch holes and pump tear gas. 
but to suggest that the "feds" have killed 90 men women and children is clearly 
making an unfounded accusation.

andreas.


Headline: Standoff ends as fire destroys compound
Publish Date: 04/20/1993

Waco, Texas (AP) -- The compound where cult leader David  
Koresh and 94 others holed up for 51 days burned to the ground today  
in a fire that cult members set, authorities said. A law enforcement  
source said only eight people were believed to have survived, and  
Koresh wasn't one of them.

The fire began about six hours after FBI agents in an armored vehicle  
began repeatedly smashing the buildings and pumping tear gas into the  
Branch Davidian complex. The agents came under heavy fire, but none  
were reported injured.

Koresh had warned the FBI in a letter last week that agents would be  
"devoured by fire" if they tried to harm him.

The 87 people unaccounted for were believed to have included about  
two dozen children.

Authorities didn't believe anyone else could have survived because of  
the fire's intensity and speed, the source said. But authorities  
won't know for sure whether there were any other survivors until they  
can finish searching a maze of underground passageways the cult  
constructed.

"It's a bad end and one of the ends we feared from the beginning,"  
said Jack Killorin, a spokesman in Washington for the Bureau of  
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "Obviously suicide was a concern all  
along but the method was different, unexpected."

In a briefing shortly before the fire started, FBI spokesman Bob  
Ricks had said authorities believed the tear-gassing was the best way  
to avert a possible mass suicide, because it would "cause confusion  
inside the compound."

Nearly 40 people had left the compound before today, and Ricks said:  
"We have continually quizzed those coming out. And they, as a general  
rule, (said) that suicide -- they believe -- is not a possibility."

The FBI's assault was by far the most aggressive action taken by the  
federal government since agents raided the compound Feb. 28. Four  
federal agents died and 16 were injured in shoot-outs that day, and  
cult leaders have said six of their members were killed.

The assault began at dawn, when FBI agents in an armored vehicle,  
flying an American flag and with a battering ram attached, began  
ripping holes in the walls of the compound and pumping in tear gas.  
Ricks estimated that cult members fired as many as 200 rounds at the  
agents, who didn't return fire.

The ramming stopped for a time. The armored vehicle resumed the  
assault shortly after 9 a.m. and again at about noon.

Then smoke began pouring out of several second-floor windows. Within  
minutes, the wooden compound was engulfed in flames, fanned by high  
winds. Huge clouds of smoke rose from the complex of interlocking  
buildings, and a four-story watchtower collapsed.

Eight people were in custody -- two injured critically, one seriously  
injured and three with minor injuries, said Justice Department  
spokesman Carl Stern.

One of the eight told authorities that people inside the compound had  
set the blazes, Stern said. The person said that as he left the  
building "he could hear above him people saying: `The fire's been  
lit, the fire's been lit,'" Stern said.

Killorin said one of the people came out shooting, but Stern said it  
wasn't clear if that person had been in the compound.

FBI spokesman Nestor Michnyak said the tear gas used in the compound  
was non-flammable.

Asked why the agents moved against the compound today, Ricks said,  
"Today's action was not a sign that our patience has run out.  . . .  
This was, we believe, the next logical step in a series of actions to  
bring this to a conclusion."

The FBI had previously said it was reluctant to use tear gas because  
of the danger it might pose to children.

There were believed to be at least 17 children under age 10 among the  
94 followers holed up with Koresh, who has claimed to be Jesus  
Christ. Thirty-seven people, mostly children, have left the compound  
since the standoff began.

President Clinton said in Washington that he had advance notice of  
the assault, and that Attorney General Janet Reno and the FBI made  
the decision to begin the operation.

Before the operation began, Ricks said, federal agents telephoned the  
cult compound and warned one of its leaders that the cultists would  
be gassed if they didn't surrender. In response, he said, the person  
on the other end threw the telephone out the door.

At midmorning, cultists had hung a banner from one of the  
second-floor windows saying: "We want our phones fixed."

After reneging on earlier pledges to end the siege, Koresh had  
recently said he would give up after completing a manuscript that  
attempts to solve the Bible's Seven Seals, which hint at an end to  
the world.



Headline: Body removal begins in Waco
Publish Date: 04/23/1993

Waco, Texas (AP) -- Investigators began removing bodies from  
the burned-out rubble of the Branch Davidian compound Thursday as the  
top medical examiner disputed earlier federal assertions that some of  
the victims had been shot.  

"We heard rumors that there were several people who might  
have shot themselves or who had been shot," said Dr. Nizam Peerwani,  
who heads the Tarrant County medical examiner's office in Fort Worth,  
Texas. "There is absolutely no evidence of that as far as we are  
concerned at this stage."

Carl Stern of the Justice Department in Washington said Wednesday at  
least three bodies suffered gunshots. That raised speculation that  
cult members may have committed suicide or been shot by other  
cultists before Monday's fire that ended the 51-day standoff.  

"I am not sure where they received that information," Peerwani said.  

Stern defended his statement on Thursday, saying that Peerwani's  
medical team has only just started its investigation.  

Cult leader David Koresh and 85 followers are believed to have died  
in the fire that broke out as the FBI attempted to force a surrender  
by using armored vehicles to punch holes and pump tear gas inside the  
cultists' compound. Nine survived, six of whom claim the FBI started  
the blaze.  

The FBI says Koresh commanded a fiery mass suicide.  

Peerwani said 35 bodies, most of them "soft and crumbling" have been  
found, including some children. But, he said, none have been  
identified.  

He said one body already removed and examined was a man in his 50s  
who died from smoke inhalation.  

Peerwani said many of the children killed in the blaze -- there were  
believed to be 17 children 10 years old and younger -- may never be  
found because the blaze may have "literally incinerated their  
bodies."  

The 35 bodies will likely be transported to Fort Worth and autopsied  
Friday, Peerwani said.  

Dr. Rodney Crow, a forensic dentist from Fort Worth who's assisting  
in the case, said dental records may be the only way to identify the  
victims.  

"There are no faces on some of them and the faces are just completely  
powder," Crow said. "Hopefully, the teeth, taking a much higher  
temperature to destruct, will be in this debris. But as it stands  
now, I have seen several that the facial features are completely  
gone."  

Crow said identification could take months because many of the dental  
records will have to be obtained from places as far away as  
Australia, England and the Caribbean. Many of the cultists were  
foreigners.  



from: University of Minnesota, "gopher://kosh.mndly.umn.edu/11/1993/Apr"
.

Publish Date: 04/27/1995

Bomb suspect told friend `something big is going to happen,'  
prosecutor says

Oklahoma City (AP) Investigators in the Oklahoma bombing  
unveiled Wednesday new details of Timothy McVeigh's activities in the  
days before the explosion, including the suspect's chilling warning  
to a friend that ``Something big is going to happen.''

Investigators also were trying to trace McVeigh's movements  
after the explosion that gutted the Alfred P. Murrah Federal  
Building, a source told The Associated Press. One theory was that  
McVeigh dropped off a still-missing colleague before he was arrested  
for traffic and weapons violations.

Three witnesses placed McVeigh in front of the federal building  
moments before the explosion, apparently before the truck carrying  
the bomb arrived, the source said.

Revelations of McVeigh's actions in the days before the bombing  
came in a Wichita, Kan., courtroom as prosecutors sought to take the  
friend, Terry Nichols, to Oklahoma. The judge granted their request  
but delayed it until May 5 so Nichols could appeal.

U.S. District Judge Monti Belot seemed skeptical that firearms,  
a 60mm anti-tank rocket and other devices found in Nichols' home were  
consistent with his status as a military surplus dealer.

``I don't believe most of the citizens of the United States have  
anti-tank weapons,'' he said. ``I don't know that U.S. citizens have  
that many guns or pamphlets about Waco or literature about government  
warfare.''

``There is substantial evidence that Mr. Nichols is an associate  
with Mr. McVeigh in the extent of connections with the Oklahoma  
bombing,'' Belot said.

As the investigation advanced, the city and the nation paused to  
observe a moment of silence at 9:02 a.m., the precise moment of the  
blast one week ago. Bells rang, tears flowed and heads bowed as  
searchers stood amid the ruins of the collapsed federal building.

The death toll stood at 98.

In court, U.S. Attorney Randy Rathbun said McVeigh called  
Nichols from Oklahoma City on April 16 and asked him to pick him up.  
Nichols, 40, lives in Herington, Kan., about 270 miles north of  
Oklahoma City.

Rathbun, quoting what Nichols told the FBI after he was taken  
in, gave this account of what happened next:

Nichols picked McVeigh up, and as the two men drove north,  
McVeigh told Nichols: ``Something big is going to happen.'' Nichols  
responded: ``Are you going to rob a bank?'' and McVeigh repeated,  
``Something big is going to happen.''

The men reached Junction City, Kan., early in the morning of  
April 17. The FBI says the Ryder truck used in the bombing was rented  
in Junction City later that day.

The next day, McVeigh borrowed Nichols' pickup truck and told  
him, ``If I don't come back in a while, go clean up the storage  
shed.'' He returned the truck later that day.

Both McVeigh and Nichols had access to a shed outside Herington  
that was rented under an alias, Rathbun said. Sources have said tire  
tracks matching the type of truck used in the bombing were found at  
the shed.

The bomb exploded the next morning in Oklahoma City.

Minutes before the blast, and apparently before the arrival of  
the truck carrying the 4,800-pound bomb, three witnesses saw McVeigh  
in front of the federal building, a law enforcement official in  
Washington told the AP on condition of anonymity.

The truck was in front of the building ``less than 10 or 15  
minutes. There was probably a very short-fused timing device on it,''  
the official said.

The official also said McVeigh's 1977 yellow Mercury Marquis  
contained a hand-written notice suggesting car trouble, perhaps part  
of a plot to guarantee his car wouldn't be towed and he could make a  
quick getaway.

Investigators have been dispatched along Interstate 35 from  
Oklahoma City to Perry, a 60-mile stretch, to interview restaurant,  
gas station and other proprietors as well as residents to see if  
anyone saw McVeigh, the still-missing suspect dubbed ``John Doe 2,''  
or others, the official said.

McVeigh was stopped by a state trooper for a traffic violation  
near Perry 75 minutes after the bombing. He was arrested on a weapons  
charge and was sitting in the county jail for two days before  
authorities realized the bombing suspect was under their noses.

A crumpled business card, apparently left by McVeigh, was found  
in the police vehicle that took him to the station in Perry. ``It had  
a note on it to pick up more explosives, like a reminder note,'' a  
federal law enforcement official said, demanding anonymity.

The source also said McVeigh has refused to talk. ``He's very  
stoic and has classified himself as a prisoner of war,'' the official  
said.

McVeigh was being held in a federal prison in El Reno, Okla.,  
and was to appear at a hearing Thursday on a request to move his case  
out of Oklahoma City.


.

    The reason a lot of people tend to make the very questionable claim
    that the FBI or "feds" were directly responsible for the deaths in
    Waco comes from an inflammatory tape issued by a right-wing group
    that purported to show a tank shooting flames into the building. The
    tape was edited (by the right wing group, I presume), and seeing the
    tape continued past the "flames" shows that what was seen was sun
    glinting off a piece of debris that fell on the tank.
    
    I think the government botched the raid big-time, and were guilty of 
    impatience at the unfortunate denouement. I believe the primary
    culpability in the tragedy, however, rests squarely with Koresh and
    his lieutenants. I don't for one second believe the fire was started
    by the FBI. I'm plenty cynical, but not certifiable. Bunkering
    noncombatants against an armed force and not immediately releasing
    them to safety is the pinnacle of irresponsbility and arrogance,
    whatever you think about the viability of the government's reasons
    for taking action against the site. He (Koresh) used the innocent
    victims as pawns and, in effect, hostages, and the hostages lost.

    I am saying that the US congress is investigating this. There are
    serious questions here and every American should be concerned. It is
    NO excuse for the Oklahoma bombing period. 
    
    I spoke with my nephew during the incident (Waco). He is a FL police
    officer who has been trained in hostage negotiations. He said to me
    that the very 1st thing you DON'T do is to try to agitate  them or
    deprive them of sleep. People who are deprived of sleep do not think
    well. You want to calm people in these situations, not agrivate them.
    Think about this. Have you ever heard of a hostage negotiation like
    that? Do we all remember the blaring loudspeakers aimed at the complex. 
    What was the rush. They had no electricity, food, or water other than
    what they had stockpiled.
    
    Anyways, the Congress is investigating. IMHO this is the best way to
    take the 'wind' out of some of these militia's sails about Waco. It
    must be complete and honest though. 
    
    Steve

    The other day I had to go do some legal work at a local district
    court, the ususal landlording stuff... Funny the errie feeling when I
    saw a yellow moving truck parked along side of the unit. I guess, I too
    will be looking over my shoulder for years to come.:)
    

Fred,

I love the George Washington quote in .8 and agree totally.

.7>but how can society protect itself against random acts of violence whose
>only goal appear to be, to be as gruesome as possible?
>there appear to be only to alternatives: either our societies prepare to learn 
>to live with such random acts of violence or we move towards a totally 
>controlled society where movements of individuals, weapons and ammunitions are
>monitored at every instance.

I don't think there are even two alternatives here.

*Nothing* we could do could prevent a few determined individuals from repeating
something like the Oklahoma City car bombing.

The first thing we need to do is understand who was involved and what their
motivations were.  Then we can plan a strategy against folks like them.  We
don't have the answers yet, but just to give you an idea of what I mean, I'll
make a guess and plan a strategy.

My current guess is that this was the work of one or two nutcases who spent too
much time listening to the wrong kind of talk.  I don't mean those guys you can
hear on national commercial radio.  I mean folks who say that total war is weeks
away, and everybody needs to buy a few anti-tank rifles.  My guess is that these
nutcases figured they would be either martyrs or heros by this time next month.

Under US law, we can't prevent the talk, and I don't think we want to.  The most
we could do, by bending the law, would be to drive the talk further underground.
And given the technology, we could not prevent car-bombing or other well known
possible terrorist acts.

Our only real leverage against this kind of nutcase is their belief that they
will be martyrs or heros.  What we need to do is draw the clearest possible line
between terrorist acts and other stuff we disapprove of, like hate talk and
bad-mouthing the government.  Our message to them should be:

"The law will not interfere if you call Bill a traitor or Janet a murderer.  Nor
if you say the BATF and FBI are controlled by commie-Zionist-Rockefellers.  Nor
if you fill your pickup with legal weapons and lead a law abiding life on a few
miles of Montana scrubland.

"But, if you conspire to commit a terrorist act, we will come down on you with
whatever it takes.  Nobody will rush to your defence.  Nobody will consider you
a hero.  And by the time your trial is over, nobody will call you a martyr."

As I said before, this will not completely prevent a repeat.  But I think it is
our best chance of prevention, if my guess about the perps and motivation is
correct.

.9>respect for freedom, and life, but something has happened to us in
>the last 15 to 20 years, and layer by layer, the skin of morales in

I think a lot less has changed than you suggest.  I met nutcases like this
growing up in a quiet Midwestern suburb in the 1950s.  One thing that has
changed is the knowledge of carbomb technology.  Back in the 50s this would have
been a pipe filled with gunpowder.  And almost everybody was shocked and
outraged by the bombing, so I don't think this reflects a decline in morality.

.9>What's the cure ???  How do ya stop the hatred responsible for

I don't know that hatred was the motivation.  If it was, we'd better find some
other strategy, because governments are not too good at controlling people's
emotions.

.9>Somethings about to break, and I think the craps really gonna go down when
>it does....  

My prediction is that there may be a copycat or two, but that is all.  There
have always been nutcases in America who have believed that their act of terror
would trigger a bloodbath.  From John Wilkes Booth to Carles Manson and David
Koresh.  So far, they have always been wrong.

.10>    some people (in this case) religious extrerists and justify their
>    killing. Will the government label you some day...?

Just to add to the other comments, America is full of religious extremists, and
the government does not kill them.  If the government wants to justify killing
me, they had better make sure I am part of a group that breaks the law, shoots a
few ATF agents, and refuses to surrender for 51 days.

.10>    How can it be that these people lost their lives anon NO ONE lost their

By my memory, one ATF honcho left and several took early retirement.

I agree than an investigation is called for.  That is not the way I want my
government to handle a situation like that.

    RE .16
    
    
>.10>    some people (in this case) religious extrerists and justify their
>>    killing. Will the government label you some day...?

>Just to add to the other comments, America is full of religious extremists, and
>the government does not kill them.  If the government wants to justify killing
>me, they had better make sure I am part of a group that breaks the law, shoots a
>few ATF agents, and refuses to surrender for 51 days.

    No trial, no jury, just 'their' judgement that you are wrong and need
    to be killed? Are you sure that is what you want?
    
    Remember the adage: Label jars not people...
    
>.10>    How can it be that these people lost their lives anon NO ONE lost their
>
>By my memory, one ATF honcho left and several took early retirement.
    
    90 people dead and early retirement is the 'punishment'?
    
>I agree than an investigation is called for.  That is not the way I want my
>government to handle a situation like that.
    
    I am glad to hear that...
    
    
    Steve

.17>    No trial, no jury, just 'their' judgement that you are wrong and need

The folks in Waco had plenty of opportunity to get a jury trial.  All they had
to do is walk out with their hands up.

And at risk of repeating myself, nobody was killed because they were "wrong."

>    90 people dead and early retirement is the 'punishment'?

In .10 you said nobody lost their job.  In .17 you said OK they did, but that
was not sufficient punishment.  I'd prefer to convict people of a crime before
we talk about punishment.

to which extent does hate talk on radio prepare the ground for nutcases 
to 'take action' themselves? to which extent is bad-mouthing of political 
opponents and the spreading of lies allowable?

certainly in the assessment of the european correspondents which i have read,
hype cannot always easily be discerned from fact on talk radio. this makes the 
hate talk of talk radio a contributing factor to the climate of violence.
apparently this hate talk is a relatively new phenomenon and has become possible
since some fairness rule of ten years ago has been abandoned in the US.

as regards the bad-mouthing and telling of lies, in germany or switzerland 
(and presumably other european countries too), bad-mouthing of minorities or 
spreading of lies (such as the 'auschwitz lie') are considered criminal acts
and punishable. if you take the view that peoples actions are reflected by 
what they say it becomes reasonable to disallow extremist talk in public in 
the absence of self-regulation by the media.



andreas.

RE Note 170.18        CSSE::NEILSEN "Wally Neilsen-Steinhardt"             
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>.17>    No trial, no jury, just 'their' judgement that you are wrong and need
>
>The folks in Waco had plenty of opportunity to get a jury trial.  All they had
>to do is walk out with their hands up.
>
    
    Did that include the children too?
    
    
>And at risk of repeating myself, nobody was killed because they were "wrong."
>
    
    They were killed because they were right?
    
    Just what crime did the children comitt that required their death?
    Being with their parents as hostages?
    
>>    90 people dead and early retirement is the 'punishment'?
>
>In .10 you said nobody lost their job.  In .17 you said OK they did, but that
>was not sufficient punishment.  I'd prefer to convict people of a crime before
>we talk about punishment.
    
    
    If you took the SERP package from a few years ago, vs you were fired,
    under which condition would you have an easier time getting a new
    job...? Early retirement has bennies, fired does not!
    
    Again. what was the rush? Couldn't they just wait them out? What about
    the audio harrassment? Have you ever seen this done before?
    
    On a different, light, has anyone heard about the new hearings that I
    think I mentioned earlier?
    
    Steve

>>    Again. what was the rush? Couldn't they just wait them out? What about
>>    the audio harrassment? Have you ever seen this done before?
    
    57 days wasn't long enough?.........  



	It is terrible that Waco ended as it did.  However, the government is
not the only party to have made mistakes.  Looking back, there are
many questions that could be asked - as they say, hindsight is 20/20.  
The Waco incident just shows what can happen when two groups supporting
opposing ideas decide not to back down.  Waco should be a lesson to everyone
that it is always better to try and talk to resolve differences, rather than
refuse to compromise.

    "When two groups decide NOT to back down with opposing views....etc."
    
    This is exactly what starts wars.
    
    Jeff

   re: .19  andreas

>   as regards the bad-mouthing and telling of lies, in germany or
>   switzerland (and presumably other european countries too),
>   bad-mouthing of minorities or spreading of lies (such as the
>   'auschwitz lie') are considered criminal acts and punishable. ...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   
   I have not heard that reference before.  Can you elaborate, please?

   
   Also, are you saying that things like this 'auschwitz lie' are
   considered slander in a general sense, or are they treated with some
   special punishment because of the nature of the lie?
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

see extract below.

[mr. deckert, head of the far right national democratic party has in the
mean time been awarded, by the court of appeal, a stiffer sentence than the 
original 18 months penalty.]

              <<< TAVENG::$1$DUA21:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 1409.9                  Jews and Germans today                      9 of 11
COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                      21 lines  27-APR-1994 19:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonn -- Freedom of speech in Germany does not extend to the claim the
Holocaust never happened, the nation's highest court ruled yesterday.

The decision reassured Jewish leaders who had been upset by a lower court's
ruling last month that overturned the conviction of a rightist who had denied
that Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis.

Calling the Holocaust a lie, rightists have attempted to give the impression
that Germany's reputation is being smeared by Jews and foreigners.

In its action, the German Constitutional Court has upheld the long-standing
German prohibition of statements denying the Holocaust.  Joerg van Essen,
a member of parliament and a formal federal prosecutor said that Deckert,
head of the National Democratic Party which denies the Holocaust, may
end up getting a stiffer penalty in his retrial than the 18-month sentence
handed out in his first conviction for incitement of racial hatred.

In New York, Elon Steinberg of the World Jewish Congress said that the
"Auschwitz Lie" is a "proven untruth" and a criminal insult against living
Jews, and that the German court "has said that promoting hateful lies is
not covered by free speech."

.23>  Also, are you saying that things like this 'auschwitz lie' are
.23>  considered slander in a general sense, or are they treated with some
.23>  special punishment because of the nature of the lie?

here in switzerland, supporting the 'auschwitz lie' in public, or making
grossly derogative statements in public about sections of the population 
would be against the so-called anti-racism law and is thus punishable.

i believe the situation is fairly similar in other european countries.

this type of legislation only affects fringe elements of society. 


andreas.

RE Note 170.21                   KOALA::BRIGGS                               
                           -< how long do you wait? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>    Again. what was the rush? Couldn't they just wait them out? What about
>>>    the audio harrassment? Have you ever seen this done before?
>    
>    57 days wasn't long enough?.........  
>
    
     Ask the children...

>	It is terrible that Waco ended as it did.  However, the government is
>not the only party to have made mistakes.  Looking back, there are
>many questions that could be asked - as they say, hindsight is 20/20.  
    
    So why not ask them now before the next time...?
    
>The Waco incident just shows what can happen when two groups supporting
>opposing ideas decide not to back down.  Waco should be a lesson to everyone
>that it is always better to try and talk to resolve differences, rather than
>refuse to compromise.
    
    Again, this is 'our government' acting against its citizens. Even a DWI
    driver gets his Miranda's read to him...
    
    

 >     
 >     Again, this is 'our government' acting against its citizens. Even a DWI
 >     driver gets his Miranda's read to him...
    
    ... once he's in custody. Not while he's exhibiting armed resistance
    to being arrested. Had the people in the compound allowed themselves
    to be taken into custody, I think it's reasonable to assume that
    their Miranda rights would have been read to them. If a DWI holes up
    in his car, firing at the officers that tried to stop him, I doubt
    they'd be shouting his Miranda rights over bullhorns...

    
    re andresas,

    In the U.S. there seems to be this attitude that my opinions are
    "reasoned descent" while your your opinions are "hate mongering".
    Just last week HilBilly declared in a speech, "How can anyone say
    that they love their country but hate their government".  Yes, the
    one and the same HilBilly who organized protests against the
    Vietnam war.

    Since the OKC bombing there have been calls to restore powers to
    law enforcement groups that would allow them to "watch" "dangerous"
    groups.  Those same powers were revoked in the 60's because they
    were being used to "watch" civil-rights and anti-war groups, even
    to the point of bugging Martin Luther King's phones and bedroom.

    fred();

    
    Could you imagine what would happen if "right-wingers" staged anything
    like the South L.A. riots or the "protests" staged during the '68
    Democratic Convention----woooooooh Mama!

    fred();

    You mean like the little demonstration at the Brookline women's clinic
    last December?
    

RE Note 170.27                   
    
>    ... once he's in custody. Not while he's exhibiting armed resistance
>    to being arrested. Had the people in the compound allowed themselves
>    to be taken into custody, I think it's reasonable to assume that
>    their Miranda rights would have been read to them. If a DWI holes up
>    in his car, firing at the officers that tried to stop him, I doubt
>    they'd be shouting his Miranda rights over bullhorns...
    
    If he had just run over and killed a police officer and was 'holed up'
    in his car with a child and refused to come out, would it be OK to
    shoot him or burn the car?  I don't think so.
    
    Remember something about 'your day in court'? Dead men (and women and
    children) tell no lies, or the truth for that matter?
    
    Steve

Reply .19 suggests that banning hate talk in the US might prevent another car
bombing.  Much as I dislike hate talk and car bombing, I think this would not
work and could not be done in the US.

To see that it would not work, we need only look where it has been tried. 
Germany is one country where hate talk is outlawed.  There have been numerous
terrorist attacks against Turks and others in Germany.  The BBC has successfully
prevented broadcast of interviews with IRA leaders.  There have been numerous
attacks by the IRA in Britain.  The governments of Egypt and Algeria have
prevented broadcasts by Muslim fundamentalists, but terrorist attacks are
common.  Yugoslavia, where hate talk was driven underground for a generation,
has gone beyond terrorism into open war.  Even Japan, which looks to me like the
most tightly controlled modern democracy, is experiencing terrorist attacks. 
Based on this evidence, I conclude that government efforts to prevent hate talk
will not prevent another car bombing in the US.

To see that it can't be done, we need only look at the first amendment to the US
Constitution.  Any law would have to pass the scrutiny of the US courts, which
have been striking down related laws as "unconstitutionally vague."  This means
that the law would have to define precisely what was meant by hate speech. 
Radio personalities as clever as Gordon Liddy would have a field day dancing on
the edge of forbidden speech.  

Beyond that, any attempt to pass such a law would support one of the primary
claims: that the government is determined to take away the rights of citizens.
The attempt would be widely and strongly resisted, perhaps with violence.

.19>re .16, there are limits to free speech

I agree.  Even under the US Constitution, slander, conspiracy to commit crimes
and inciting to riot are not protected.  If there is good evidence that anybody
broke those laws, they should be tried.  If found guilty, they should be
punished.

>to which extent does hate talk on radio prepare the ground for nutcases 
>to 'take action' themselves?

I don't know, in general, or in this specific case.  In something this
important, I would need very strong positive evidence before I would support a
move against hate radio.

>since some fairness rule of ten years ago has been abandoned in the US.

The Fairness Doctrine was abandoned, after court challenges, some years ago. 
But it might not have impacted hate radio, since it only required presenting
opposing views.  A station could cover itself by broadcasting both left-wing and
right-wing ranters.

>as regards the bad-mouthing and telling of lies, in germany or switzerland 
>(and presumably other european countries too), bad-mouthing of minorities or 
>spreading of lies (such as the 'auschwitz lie') are considered criminal acts
>and punishable. 

The US and Europe have taken different paths on this issue.  I don't know that I
would recommend change to Europeans, but I am staying in the US and I would
prefer not to give up our Constitution.

>if you take the view that peoples actions are reflected by 
>what they say it becomes reasonable to disallow extremist talk in public in 
>the absence of self-regulation by the media.

No.  I don't want my government deciding what talk is extremist.  If people
commit crimes, they should be punished.  That's enough.

.31>    If he had just run over and killed a police officer and was 'holed up'
>    in his car with a child and refused to come out, would it be OK to
>    shoot him or burn the car?  I don't think so.

Yes, it would be OK to shoot him, after trying to talk him into surrender and
exploring other possibilities.  This is done in hostage situations all the time.
 

It would not be OK to burn the car, because that would put the child in extreme
danger.  By all the reports I heard from Waco, that was not a parallel
situation.  BATF did not set the fires.

It would also not be OK to shoot him if it seemed likely to put the child in
great danger.  Avoiding this possibility requires extreme good judgement under
pressure.  As I see it, the issue in Waco is this third alternative.  Did the
BATF exercise the good judgement we would expect?
    
>    Remember something about 'your day in court'? 

Again repeating myself, anybody who wants their day in court has to be prepared
to come to court to get it.

.20>    Did that include the children too?

Yes, the children were all given a chance to walk out and go free.  A few
children took the chance.  
    
>    Just what crime did the children comitt that required their death?
>    Being with their parents as hostages?

No crime.  They could have walked out.  Nobody required their death, except
maybe the parents and leaders.

I feel very bad about the children, and about the adults.  I wish they had
walked out.  Then they would have gotten their day in court, and all of them
would be alive today.

> .19>re .16, there are limits to free speech
>
> I agree.  Even under the US Constitution, slander, conspiracy to commit crimes
> and inciting to riot are not protected.  

glad to hear this. i actually believed that there was virtually limitless free 
speech in the US!

i stand corrected.

and once again i am reminded that for a european such as me, the confrontational
climate which is nurtured by talk radio in an attempt to increase ratings, well
that such a confrontational climate can all too quickly be misinterpreted as 
a climate of unabashed hostility.


andreas.

    
    re .30

>    You mean like the little demonstration at the Brookline women's clinic
>    last December?

    Actually I was thinking of something on a much larger scale.  Also
    I was thinking in terms of what the "unbiased" media response to it 
    would be.


    re: fairness doctrine
    
    This was another law that was repealed because it was being used
    to harass liberal groups.  Now the liberals want it back.  Hmmmm.
    The liberal cause is bankrupt if all they have left to promote their
    cause is to try to turn the death of these children into a political
    issue.  
    
    Once again, trying to hang responsibility of this dreadful action on
    "talk-radio", "right-wing" militias, or religous groups" is just as
    scurrilous as trying to hang the World Trade Center bombing on all
    Muslims or Arabians.

    fred();

RE Note 170.33  CSSE::NEILSEN "Wally Neilsen-Steinhardt"             
    
    
    We have a different view of innocent until convicted. I will leave it
    at that.
    
    Steve

Re 35

>    The liberal cause is bankrupt if all they have left to promote their
>    cause is to try to turn the death of these children into a political
>    issue.  

Errr... haven't the right made the death of the children at Waco into a
political issue?

    
>Errr... haven't the right made the death of the children at Waco into a
>political issue?

    Difference is that those in Waco were killed as a direct result of
    the actions of federal agents.  The OKC bombing was the action of
    some isolated nut-cases which, as far as we can tell, that had
    no connection to the militia groups other than that they had 
    attended one or two meetings.  

    Nightline last night was about how terrible it was that American
    Muslims had initially come under attack when it was initially thought
    that the bombing was the result of Mid-East terrorists.  This after
    running several shows trying to smear the militia groups to the
    incident.  Do these people have any idea just how transparent they're
    becomming?

    Even after the intense media campaign to the contrary, recent Times-
    Mirror polls show that something in excess of 70% of the American
    population thinks the Federal government presents a bigger danger
    to our civil rights than do the militia groups.  

    fred();

>   Difference is that those in Waco were killed as a direct result of
>   the actions of federal agents.  

according to the AP press bulletins (see .11) the branch davidians set
the fire themselves.

> The OKC bombing was the action of some isolated nut-cases which, as far 
> as we can tell, that had no connection to the militia groups other than 
> that they had attended one or two meetings.  

for the time being this is pure speculation on your part. "john doe #2" 
hasn't been captured yet and mcveigh is posing as POW (in his mind at least
he belongs to some military organisation).


andreas.

        reply

>according to the AP press bulletins (see .11) the branch davidians set
>the fire themselves.

    Regardless, the deaths were the direct result of a seriously bungled
    and probably illegal assault on the compound by the Federal agents.

>for the time being this is pure speculation on your part. "john doe #2" 
>hasn't been captured yet and mcveigh is posing as POW (in his mind at least
>he belongs to some military organization).

    The "pure speculation" at this point is that the militia groups 
    had anything to do with the incident.  In spite of the their
    attempts to connect the two, not even liberal media can come up
    with any credible evidence that the two were connected.

    fred();

        furthermore,  I suspect the Unabomber (note 171) has attended at
    least one Greenpeace meeting.  Doe that mean that Greenpeace is 
    responsible for the people killed by the Unabomber?  Greenpeace
    _has_ been known to be involved in some rather violent incidents.

    Also you will note that the news reports never actually accuse the
    militia groups of being responsible.  They report that McVeigh is
    "thought to have been" or "some people believe that" never specifying
    who the "some people" are.  Then they launch into a, technically
    unrelated, story on the militias and/or radio talk shows.  They never 
    actually technically accuse anybody  of  being  involved but they
    know full well that after several repetitions of this the audience will
    make the connection.   In Nazi-Germany this type of behavior was known
    as "The Big Lie".

    fred();

>    They never 
>    actually technically accuse anybody  of  being  involved but they
>    know full well that after several repetitions of this the audience will
>    make the connection

And the right-wing talk-shows only report the facts?

IMO, these type of shows are more remeniscent of the Nazis' tactics in 
Germany before thay came to power.  For radio read Bier Halls.

I don't know whether the bombers belonged to any political group you can't
pretend that militias don't spread their own propaganda.  The paraphase
a well-known saying - The truth never got in the way of a good scapegoat.

Note:  IT can be taken both ways.

.37> Errr... haven't the right made the death of the children at Waco into a
> political issue?

There seem to be a very small number of people (like a dozen or so) who are
making Waco a political issue.  A few million people are listening, but that's
another story.  I have not heard a national Republican take it up.  I heard a
quote from the congressman starting the hearings, and he sounded quite
non-political about it.  He wanted to know what happened and what could be done
to prevent something like that in the future.

By contrast, it is the President and leader of the Democratic party who is
trying, almost every day, to use the bombing against the people he calls
extremist.  I think his heart is in the right place, but as usual, he has not
thought this through.

His campaign seems to be falling flat.  Too many people remember when violence
on the left was used to try to discredit the left.

.38>    Even after the intense media campaign to the contrary, recent Times-
>    Mirror polls show that something in excess of 70% of the American
>    population thinks the Federal government presents a bigger danger
>    to our civil rights than do the militia groups.  

Interesting.  National Public Radio ran several times a sound bite from Rep
Charles Shumer, who had been opposing the Waco hearings.  "Ask the American
people whether they are more afraid of the Federal government or these armed
right-wing militias."

I guess somebody took him up on it.

    reply .42

    >And the right-wing talk-shows only report the facts?

    Point of debate:
    When you say "they do it too",  all you do is admit that you are 
    doing it and trying to justify it by accusing the other side of
    doing it too.  However you've admitted your guilt and the guilt of the
    other side remains just an accusation.

    fred()