Conference quark::mennotes

    Since my youngest turns 15 today, it's hard for me to remember that
    far back.  I know there were some very different styles of communication
    with the children and my wife and I.  I find the article may have
    the answer to a few questions about why society has become the way
    it is.

    If you look at it on a slightly different angle.
    Mother:  The world must adapt to the child.
    Father:  The child must adapt to the world.

    Now remover the father from this equation and what kind of kids to
    we end up with?

    fred();

re:             <<< Note 164.1 by CSC32::HADDOCK "Saddle Rozinante" >>>

>    If you look at it on a slightly different angle.
>    Mother:  The world must adapt to the child.
>    Father:  The child must adapt to the world.

>    Now remover the father from this equation and what kind of kids to
>    we end up with?

Yeow - the Age of Entitlement is upon us!

    Most of the young hoo-laa-gin troubles are from the young with no
    father at/in the house hold. And the court system seems hell bent on
    the idea of putting visitation at a low level of divorce.
    
    

.1>  Mother:  The world must adapt to the child.
.1>  Father:  The child must adapt to the world.

yes, this caught my eye too... particluarly as in conclusion, both 
forms or adaptation are necessary and hence the mother's and the father's 
involvement are equally important.


andreas.

ps. the next two replies contain more intersting articles on the subject.
    the articles come from fathernet wich is accessible via www on 
    url: "gopher://tinman.mes.umn.edu:80/11/FatherNet"    

    Anyone see Prime Time last night? Article on children in our school
    systems. And how out of control they are. One teacher told the class to
    shut-up and sit down in a 50 min class 145 time! And another teacher
    told us that out of 45 puples in his class room. 3,(three) had both mom
    and dad in the same house hold.... And the rest were single moms. And
    many men are denied visitation of their children. Many who ask and
    fight like hell to see them have the childrens minds poisoned by mom
    making comments to dad being the bad guy all the time. And if single
    moms nurture so well. Guess there is no reason for Prime Time to show
    that article....

    I have ment a man who pays in child support what many well off take
    home for pay. He has not SEEN his daughter in a Months time!
    
    I can go on with this. And I see red every time I think of it. I also
    know of several men who have fought like hell in the court room to get
    even supervised visitations. And they have not seen their children in
    10 years. Another 15. And another has not seen his children since they
    were born over 21 years ago. All pay to the system child support and
    some alimoney and nothing is done. Not a freeking thing. 
    

    
    I know these notes tend to get off into the divorce/custody/visitation
    thing.  However, in this case, the biggest problem is not the
    difference in how fathers and mothers communicate with their children.
    The biggest problem is there is _no_ communication with fathers since
    father is not around.  There are several reasons for this.  The biggest
    is that society, both men and women, have gotten the attitude that
    men in a family are not important.  They are even, depending on which
    feminist organization you talk to, detrimental to the family.  That men
    are not needed in a family, just his paycheck, and you can keep his
    paycheck without keeping him around.

    Yes, a good deal of this problem is scumbag men who don't give an
    *bleep*.  But, as George indicates, there are many, many men who
    just are not allowed to be part of the child's life.  Both cases
    are a violation of the **child's** rights.  The right to the 
    love, care, education, _and_ discipline needed to survive and 
    prosper in today's society.

    I am beginning to see a few rays of hope, though.  Such as .0.  
    The beginnings of a recognition that men, as men, have a very
    important role to play in children's lives.   Even if nothing 
    else, just being there as an example. 

    fred();

yes, a child raised by both mother and father may just have less difficulty
with following role models later on.

note though that the "father" role model need not be restricted to the 
biological father only. the father role can be assumed by the "new involved 
father" or step-father, co-parent or whatever the term might be for the new 
live-in dad (same vice versa of course, if the father has custody and a new
SO)


andreas.

as a general question, do you folks have access to gopher or shall i post
the fathernet research articles in a specific topic for the purpose?


andreas.

okay, i'll go ahead. 

as i post the ca. 25 articles i'll keep the topic write-locked.


andreas.

Pitzer supports the following statement

.11> Yes, fatherhood
>has changed, if one looks at the culture of fatherhood--the
>norms, values, and beliefs surrounding men's parenting.  No,
>fatherhood has not changed (at least significantly), if one looks
>at the conduct of fatherhood--what fathers do; how fathers behave
>vis-a-vis their children.

using a table like this:
>                                                    Percent who
>                          Percent who believe       report equal
>                          husbands and wives        sharing in   
>                          should share family       their  
>                          work equally              family         
>
>                          Men       Women                 
>
>Harris Poll (1988)        67%        87%                 14%

But this form of the question obscures almost any change.  A family in which the
man took 40%, 45% or 49% of the responsibility could still be classified as
"unequal".  A later statistic, buried in the text further down, seems to
contradict the statement above:

>Yarrow (4), in her survey of 14,000 fathers, found that 81 percent
>reported taking a bigger part in child care duties than did their
>fathers; 68 percent said they spend more time with their children;

So it may be that the conduct of fatherhood has changed significantly.

    
    	 George, I agree with your views but another sad point is that
    there are many Fathers that don't want to be around their children.
    
    George

    George,
    
    There are mothers who dont want to be around their children too. I know
    a few. Anytime you want me to introduce you to them let me know. In
    fact there are a couple of read-only dads out there who have similar
    problems with it. How about an 18 month old daughter who has not been
    picked up or held by mom in three years. She was 18 months old when mom
    decided to start her new life with some one else. 
    
    I have a brother-in-law who lives out near the coast. His lovely ex
    decided to find herself in California.... Moved out on them leaving dad
    with the kids and this past Christmas decides to return... Execpt he is
    now married to my sister. Sooo. I guess you should put away that broad
    brush till you have been around a wee more that your letting us on
    to.:)
    
    Peace
    
    

        re. 17

>   In
>    fact there are a couple of read-only dads out there who have similar
>    problems with it. How about an 18 month old daughter who has not been
>    picked up or held by mom in three years. 

    You've outdone yourself this time George ;^).

    You can add my ex to the list.  She hasn't even tried to visit the
    children in almost two years.  Nothing but excuses about how poor
    she is for Christmas.  Not even a card.  No child support.

    re .16.

    Yes there are father's out there that have bought into the disposable-
    father attitude.  Those men also need to realize the importance of
    a father to the development of their children.

    fred();
    

    The brother-in-law and sister hit up the ex for child support. The ex
    is on welfare, had another child by casual contact.... And now if she
    steps foot one back in NH she will do jail.:)