Conference quark::mennotes

    Lets put the shoes on the other foot. Can you manage a long distant
    relationship? How do or did you fair in your last one?
    
    

    I married mine.
    
    Seriously, my husband and I had a long-distance relationship for 3
    years before I moved up here with him and we got married the following
    year. I think it's very challenging, and not an easy thing to get to
    work, but a long-distance relationship can work with lots of effort.
    

    Matter of fact. I married mine too. Now I am divorced from her.:) So,
    it works, and it doesnt.;) I guess.:) She lived in Derry NH and I lived
    in Milford NH.

    	It depends on how often you see each other and what you think the 
    relationship could become. I had a relationship for over a year and
    when the military sent me overseas she decided after a whole month that   
    she wanted to go out with other people while I was away. Oh well the
    common ex-military story. 

    
    its certainly possible for a party to feel "attachment" for
    another from a distance for long periods, sometimes even
    when this is not reciprocated by the other. 

    I don't think you can have much of a relationship if it's
    long distance- It's more like the relationship is on hold
    until some other event. People can be temporarily separated
    for a definitive period of time (eg. military service, school,
    temporary out of town work). I think it can work if you've
    already had a relationship and a commitment from the other 
    person before the separation and, again, if there is some known
    time when you will be reunited. On the other hand, if one person
    moves away, if the "relationship" never really developed, or
    there is no set time period, I don't think there's much of a 
    chance.  In these cases don't count on a man being faithful.
    [Is that what you're really asking??]
    . 
    Of course these are generalizations, you mileage may vary.
    
    Here's a test. (customize to your situation) Tell the guy 
    your quiting your job, selling your house, putting the cat up
    for adoption in order to come be with him!
    
    

    There is a discussion of this topic in QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS-V1.
    My personal experiences with long-distance relationships (those which
    start out that way) were not positive.
    
    					Steve

    What (anecdotal) evidence I've seen and heard suggests that such
    relationships don't usually succeed, but when they do, there seem to be
    a couple of common threads.  One is that both individuals are highly
    independent and have strong career drives.  Another is that they are
    able to get the emotional support their relationship needs with a
    minimum of face-to-face time.  Implicit trust of the partners in each
    other appears to be another factor.  Finally, the successful
    long-distance relationships I've heard of didn't involve children.
    
    Steve

I have a friend studying in Taiwan and he has a girlfriend lives here in Hong
Kong. He comes back here only three to four times a year and stay no more than
two weeks. They've been together for one and half year and still goes fine for
the second year.

They've known each other for two and half year before they've been together. Can
I say they hold such long distance relationship well?


Mickwid.

    RE 130.1
    
    YES! 
    
    	How did I fair in my last one?  I'm doing it right now?
    
    M

    130.2
    
    That very is encouraging!
    
    
    What was the most challenging about the relationship?
    
    
    	

    Yes, it does, if it is a true one.  My friend had a 18 month separation
    before being able to get married. They BOTH waited and were faithful to
    each other, they had no problem with her being in Europe and he being
    in Boston.
    
    I myself have gone through a few... short term and long term, it works
    with us because we are committed to EACH other for life... so a
    separation means nothing but momentary inconvenience that we must go
    through and we do, it is hard, but it has its rewards... its great to
    be reunited after a long separation!
    
    Ana

    I agree with what you are saying but they had a committment of marriage
    where I don't.
    
    I just want the relationship to become strong enough to get that point
    however I'm worried that the distance for the last two years has been
    too much.
    
    
    

    Re .6
    
    Well, we've been together for 15 years, the first 3 of which were a
    long-distance relationship [we've been married the last 11 years]. But
    I believe we're probably the exception in that our relationship worked
    long-distance, but I don't agree that you need a commitment ahead of
    time or that the amount of time you will be separated is finite and
    known. In my case, we met, dated and lived in the same city [Boston]
    for the first 3 months of our relationship. Then I went back to school
    an hour away for the next year. We continued to see each other on and
    off and also both dated other people. When I graduated college, I moved
    7 hours away, and we continued to see each other for the next year and
    a half.  During that time, we also both dated other people. It wasn't
    until I moved back up and in with him that we were really committed to
    each other, and we got married the following year. At the time I moved
    back to Boston, we didn't really know we _could_ live in the same place
    and maintain a relationship because all we really knew was a life where
    we talked once or twice a week and saw each other every 4-8 weeks for a
    week-end.  I think that's probably one of the biggest issues -- if the
    whole relationship is long-distance, you don't really know that you can
    maintain a relationship when you're living in the same place.
    
    I found the whole 3 years apart to be challenging, and it's not
    something I'd really recommend to anyone. It can work, but I think in
    most cases it probably doesn't. Of course, now that my husband lives 2
    hours away for work and is only home on week-ends, we're back to that
    long-distance business, and it's not fun. But it highlights again the
    adjustments that have to be made to go back to dealing with the
    distance as well as getting used to having him around at home on the
    week-ends. And with 3-year-old twins, I can tell you it's taken some
    adjustment.  We've been back in this situation since last November, and
    expect it to last til at least October. 
    
    Cathy
    

    to .13
    
    What is a relationship without committment? what do you expect from it?
    if there is not committment there is no real relationship, but a
    convenient frienship or whatever you want to call it. If there is no
    committment or expectations, what is there to KEEP? a thought, may be?
    Ana

Please allow me to be slightly cynical and comment that if you're in the
middle (or start) of this kind of relationship, it really doesn't matter what
other people's experiences are, as the natural tendency is to hear only those
which support your own desires.  When (or if) you come out the other side,
you'll look back and say "how could I have been so foolish!"

My own experiences were that LD relationships were "unreal"; during the
limited time together, we acted as if we were "on vacation", not our real
selves.  You don't really get a chance to KNOW the other person this way.
The distance also can serve as a "shield" against feelings or desires that
would otherwise come out in the open; when they do finally emerge, it can
be painful.

Of course, while I was in these relationships, everything was wonderful and
nothing could go wrong.  Later, I was sadder and wiser.

All I can really suggest is to try to be honest with yourself.  Sure, you
can make it work - there's lots of examples testifying to that.  But there's
lots more which failed.  Your best bet is to work towards a time when you
can eliminate the distance, without making a permanent commitment, and then
see if your relationship still works.  (If you do something like get married
right away, you've likely made a big mistake.)

				Steve

    Re .16
    
    I agree whole-heartedly with Steve and find his definition of the
    relationship being 'unreal' to really be right on the mark. It's sort
    of like always being on a first date where your best foot is always
    forward.  And I also agree that getting married right away without
    eliminating the distance first is probably not the right thing to do
    because you don't know that you can really stand each other for more
    than a week or so at a time. And that's one reason my husband and I
    lived together for a year before getting married.
    
    I think you really need to know that you're compatible and just
    spending 'vacation'-like time together doesn't really tell you that. 
    
    And I do know other people who have made it work, but I know more
    people who have not been able to make it work.  From the ones where it
    worked, we all agree that it's not a fun thing and it's not something
    any of us would really recommend as an ideal way to have a
    relationship.  And from one that I know that failed, it was interesting
    that they dated long-distance for 3 or 4 years before getting engaged
    and moving to the same city and living together.  Something like 2 or 3
    months later, they had broken up because they found they weren't
    compatible for long stretches of time although they both thrived on
    their idyllic week-ends together.
    
    

I'll also add that there's a strong tendency to "be in love with love".
While you're apart, you're living a fantasy and what's not to like about that?
You can write romantic letters and promise each other the world, but each
of you is really just interacting with your own fantasies and not reality.
The letdown, if/when it comes, is a jarring crash.

Probably the biggest problem can happen when you DO make the move to be
together.  One of you has to give up familiar surroundings (home, job, friends,
family, etc.)  Who will it be?  When faced with the reality of moving, will
you be able to go through with it, especially when you don't really know what's
waiting for you?

				Steve

>
>   Is a man capable of maintaining a long distance relationship?
>
Yes it is possible....

Whether this can work really depends upon the two people involved and the 
type of relationship they have built.

In my experience, I did not find them an enjoyable experience, it proved to 
be expensive and you never really get to know a person until you have lived 
with them in close proximity.

I have seen instances where this can work, but this seems to be the exception 
than the norm.

John

    A convient friendship??? After two years I think it is a little more
    than that...however we haven't spoken about marriage.

    130.16
     
    Well, I guess then I need to make some choices....either I move there
    or he moves here.
    
    

      I think long distance relationships can work.  It makes the 
      consummation part more exciting! 

      It can also make communication more thorough and romantic.  Say 
      for instance writing letters.  Often times coupled are too busy 
      responding to eachother's physical stimuli that the never get 
      the opportunity to openly express themselves.  When you write 
      a letter you can say exactly what you mean/feel/want without
      interuption or interjection.

      On the downside people are usually impatient.  When we want 
      something we want it now....and there's alot of distractions 
      out there.  Infidelity could be an issue if you let it be.

      My sister and brother-in-law were in a long distance relationship 
      for 1.5 years while he lived in Europe.  I think it strengthened 
      their relationship.  They ended up getting married when he returned 
      at the tender age of 20!  They've just celebrated their 10th 
      anniversery and are still goin' strong.  
    

    
        One positive part of a long-distance relationship can be that the
    relationship consists (as it must) of a lot of communicating.  As
    opposed to a close-in relationship which often consists of a lot
    of sex and not much communication.  The communication part will
    build a better long-term relationship if they finally do get together.

    fred();

    Re: .23
    
    I'd have to disagree - there tends to be only the illusion of
    communication, not actual communication itself.
    
    				Steve

    re: .24
    
    I beg to differ, although I suppose your position 
    would be subject to one's definition of communication.
    If it's physically based I'd be compelled to agree.

    However, some great authors were able to communicate 
    feelings, thoughts and ideas very eloquently to us today 
    without physical contact.  And in many cases much more 
    thoroughly than those we may have had several "physical 
    encounters" with.
 
    If one understands the parameters of the relationship 
    one can use the methods of communication which would 
    enhance it best.  Where sexual encounters are not possible 
    substitue fantasy.  Where verbal or written communication 
    is not possible substitue unbridled sex...etc.

No, I think you misunderstood my statement.  There may be a lot of
"communication" (exchange of words), but in such circumstances what is
being exchanged is often not real, but what you would LIKE to be real.
I would offer as an analogy the majority of "personals ads".  Men and women
write elaborate descriptions of themselves, their likes, their feelings,
what they are looking for.  But what they often write is what they THINK
they should write so as to attract the sort of person they THINK they want.
It's all too often unreal.

I offer this not as discouragement but in the hopes of making people entering
into LD relationships aware of the obstacles distance places in their path,
many of which are not at all obvious.

					Steve

    Steve, 
    
    I appreciate your comments however I believe they are too general.
    How can you say that "words" are not real especially when you 
    don't know what is being communicated between two people?  
    
    Also I believe - for me, it  is much easier to be honest over the 
    phone or in a letter because the fear of a negative imediate response 
    is not there. 
    
    Only individuals who do not have a secure picture of themselves need to 
    fluff themselves up like in "personal adds".  Also if someone is going
    to invest a lot of time, energy and lonely nights into a long distance 
    relationship the last thing they are going to do is fluff themself up 
    when they could be doing that with someone local. 
    
	I inital asked this question because I had doubts if a man could be
    	emotionally and physically faithful while being away from a partner 
    	for such long periods time...especially since our lines of
    	communication we slipping.   From the responses I see that is a 
    	very difficult situation however if BOTH people make a serious 
    	committment is can work. 
    
    
	Thanks for all the comments......	    	
    
                                 

    
    Next subject

    Did it hurt that much?

    NO!  I just think that every angle has been discussed.

re .27

As someone who has read more than his share of personal ads, I don't think that
it is lack of a "secure picture of themselves" that causes people to "fluff" up
their ads.  What generally happens is that their desire to FIND SOMEONE
overwhelms the real goal of finding a compatible someone.  This ads list a large
number of activities/interest and use the shotgun approach of finding someone.

Rich

Re: .27

Sure, a man (or a woman) can be "emotionally and physically faithful" during
a LD relationship.  I was.  Whether any specific man or woman can be is
something else entirely.

Come back in six months and tell us how it went.

				Steve

    
    
    <<What generally happens is that their desire to FIND SOMEONE
    overwhelms the real goal of finding a compatible someone. >>>
    
    	Without being too analytical I would hope someone would examine 
    	their desire to find some being so great that they need to 
    	"fluff" themselves up.
    
    The other person will sooner or later realize you are not the person
    you claim to be.

    Well I'm spending two weeks with him this October so I will tell you
    then.
    
    

.27 hinted at something I've just found the time to get in here, that I
believe that the longevity of any relationship, assuming no partner is
perfect, is affected by the pool of available alternatives.  Some of the
factors that I can think of that might affect the size of this pool are a
person's age (real or apparent), attractiveness, value sets, emotional
baggage whether from childhood experiences or from prior relationships or
both, sexual drive, race, sexual preference, and job situation.

For example, I would think that an LDR between two young people would have
a far-less chance of success than one between two middle-aged folks, all
else being equal.  As .27 says, local talent may distract, perhaps
especially when the pool is larger because its age is, say, in its late
teens and early twenties rather than in its forties.  On the other hand,
one could make a case for local distraction being stronger when the age
group is older - perhaps one partner might be thinking, "The clock's
running out; what if s/he's not the one and what if I find out so late that
no one else is available?"

Apart from all that, for me, an LDR couldn't possibly work because I need
closeness in a relationship.  Not smothering, and not necessarily living
together, but rather the knowledge that the other person is within short
driving distance for lunch or dinner or just a chat or even just a long
phone call that isn't going to produce the sucking sound of my cash being
transferred to Sprint's corporate coffers.  

To illustrate with a concrete personal example, I went through a five-year
relationship with someone just 30 minutes away that was a pseudo-LDR
because her job demanded so much of her we had no more than four or five
hours together every Saturday the last couple of years we were together.  I
think where I failed in this relationship was my not recognizing a need for
more time together and for much more physical closeness; had I done so, we
could have parted earlier and both re-entered the "pool" at an earlier age,
with better chances of finding replacement mates.

Finally, I had some excellent discussions with someone about a year and a
half ago, the subject being the recognition of the difference between needs
and wants.  For anyone contemplating an LDR, I would recommend a thorough
self-examination in this area.  I think mistaking one or more of one's own
needs for wants and attempting to sustain a tolerable LDR would be a recipe
for misery. 

Okay, I'm done.   :-)                                                     

    re: 35
    
    Ughhhhhhh!!!!!
    
    That is great that you have recognized you need for physcially
    closeness in a relationship.
    
    Let me ask you this...If you meet someone who has all the qualities
    you want/need but they live in another town, state or country would you
    not pursue that relationship.  
    
    
    
                                 

Re: .35

Good answer.  Funny about one thing, though...I'm 39 and have dated
women anywhere from 25 to 40 years old.  It's been the younger ones who
think time is running out...biological clock anxiety.

Re: .36

>   Let me ask you this...If you meet someone who has all the qualities
>   you want/need but they live in another town, state or country would you
>   not pursue that relationship.  
 
Absolutely.  People like that are hard to find.  The big problem,
aside from resolving the distance issue, is whether they feel the same
way.  If they do, go for it.

I think it depends heavily on the strength of the relationship itself.
If there's a real connection, a true trusting friendship, it has a
chance.  Trust, and realistic expectations are the big tickets.

tim

>   Let me ask you this...If you meet someone who has all the qualities
>   you want/need but they live in another town, state or country would you
>   not pursue that relationship.

Hmmm... I'm not sure.  I guess I'm struggling with the premise of your
question.  How would I know that the person had all the qualities I needed
and wanted without spending serious time with that person?  But how would I
be able to do that if there's geographical distance?  Isn't this one of the
fatal flaws of LDRs, that the "getting-to-know-you" phase of building a
relationship is short-circuited?  (I realize this doesn't apply to couples
who already are firmly cemented together emotionally but then have to
separate because of career or other considerations.)

Now, unless I feel some serious base-level/chemical/subconscious attraction
to a woman, I just can't get started.  For me, anyway, no amount of phone
calls or letters or email (erotic or otherwise) can take the place of just
being with that person and feeling the "pull" she has on you, because that
stuff runs deep.  I'm talking about the times when the little man inside
speaks up and says, "Hey dummy... this is the one."  If I don't feel that
with the person I'm seeing or thinking of seeing, then there's not much I
can contribute to the relationship.

So I guess what I'm saying is that without those feelings, I have no desire
to pursue the relationship.  But, and here's the point, how would I have
even a chance of feeling those things from far away?

S__t, now I'm *really* confused!  I'm supposed to have had all this figured
out by this age!  ;-)

    RE:37
    
    	You have mention some really good points.  A lot of women
    especially the younger are concerned about their clocking ticking
    however but then I have never understood that.  I make a great aunt
    but I pass on motherhood.
    
    	<<....is whether they feel the same way...realistic expectations
    	are the big tickets.>>>>
    
    		This really made me think...Even if you both really love
    		one another, expectations have be the same or there is
    		going to be problems...
    
    		So now I know where I've been going wrong.
    
    		Thanks!

    re:38
    
    Craig,
    
    	You are right...You need to spend enough time with that person
    	to be able to see if they have the qualities that you need and 
    	that can not be accomplished by through the phone and letters. 
    
    	I was very lucky in that I he was stationed here in Boston for 
    	a long period of time and was able build a relationship.  I knew from
    	the beginning that he was only going to be here for a while and if
    	I walked away just because he wasn't from the State I would have
    	missed out on a wonderful relationship.
    
    	

    Human mates are meant to live together, its possible to have a
    permanent LDR if both partners really put their all into it...
    
    But normally an LDR as anything other then a temporary situation,
    is not the stuff dreams are made of, and doesn't last, its against 
    normal human nature.
    
    My sugestion to anyone in an LDR,  is to put their efforts into 
    moving together... QUICK, their love should make it worth while
    even if it represents a temporary set back to their careers etc.
    Or else face their almost certain future separation.
    
    Gil