Conference quark::mennotes

    Zeek,
    
    For me the ideal man is one who listens to my opinions and thinks them
    over instead of snappily refusing them merit.  He is able to be loving
    and separate hugging and closeness from sex at times.  He is able to
    love my children his children and our children as if the entire
    combination is ours.  He can cook at least as well as i do, and enjoys
    many of the same interests, but not so many that we never get any space
    from each other.  
    
    the ideal man raises children with the same values ,not necessarily the
    same religion, but a close enough view of the universe's spirituality
    that we can relate on that plane as well as the physical and emotional
    ones.  he doesn't belittle others' beliefs.  
    
    He can change a diaper, launder silks without shrinking them or
    hopelessly wrinkling them, can read care lables on  clothing, can follow
    directions, and can also clearly express his needs without screaming. 
    He can cuddle a baby, a kitten and a dog, and agrees with my beliefs on
    nonviolent discipline for kids.  
    
    meg  
    
    

    My experience strongly suggests that the ideal man always remembers to
    put the toilet seat down.
    
    Steve

    Easy to solve,
    have two separated toilets in your home.
    

    The ideal man is a human being first, a man second (it's easier to
    follow societies definition than it is to create your own, so the guy's
    who challenge stereotypes and social assumptions and rise above them
    are approaching the "ideal human being" which IMO is a better man.
    					Dan D 

    The ideal man is a "straight forward, honest, faithful" person. A person 
    able to feel normal emotions and is able to transmit his and understand
    others... (that a person can change a diaper, or cook, or cut wood, depends
    on temporary needs). The ideal "man" will never be violent, (as a real man
    who is strong never needs violence to prove anything...)   A man with
    those qualities can be a good father, a good husband, a good worker, a
    good companion... good to parents as well as to children.
    
    To me, that's it! it is irelevant if the person is blond, or dark, or
    tall or small... (I am happy with "mine", to others he may be a man like 
    many others, to me... he is the one, and totally mine) Ana 

         Jesus Christ!  What a question, but then, what an answer...

    
        That's it, Jesus Christ!   The perfect man!
    
        Rose

    ROSE,
    	In Catholicism Jesus might be your perfect man. Though Jesus was
    IDEAL in his beliefs it will never be know how he would be with a wife
    (most likely kind). In Judaism Jesus belief in Turn the Other Cheek
    might not be looked a as IDEAL. In Judaism the belief of an eye for an
    eye is more prevalient.
    
    ANA,
    	A man who is not violent does that mean he doesn't get into fights?
    Or that he doesn't start fights? I have heard people be called violent
    because they hunt for game (food), does that fall into the catagory of
    violent. When pushed into a corner a good dog turns violent, same as
    alot of people. I think I know what you mean as violent, but one
    persons violent behavior is another persons defence. Violence to me
    is a unprovoked attack on someone or thing without any understandable
    reason.
    	Just some comments,
    
    		ZEEK

    .8
    
         So, do you think he would have been another just another abusive
    husband. He'd want ya to turn the other cheek so he could slap it after
    he's slapped the first cheek. hm, maybe he'd slap all 4 cheeks...
    
       rose

    No... the ideal man does NOT slap anyone!
    
    "we" slap each other because we're not perfect...
    
    Ana

    Re .9: Kind of a stretch, for a joke on the "turn the other cheek"
    business; after all, Jesus was not only non-violent (except for some
    table-tipping at the Temple), but he actually conversed with women as
    equals, something relatively unheard of at the time. 
    
    On the other hand, the way he was treated seems to demonstrate that
    being an ideal person doesn't necessarily guarantee a long and happy
    life... Maybe this "ideal" thing needs to be re-thought a bit. As the
    saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for; you might get it."
    
    -b

      
         Actually that wasn't very nice to joke about that. 
    
         This is what I would really thing is an "ideal man".  A man
    that respects your boundaries. Doesn't humiliate you in front of his
    friends because he thinks "It's cool or makes him look like the boss"
    You know he's honest and a caring person. 
    
         I would say it's very important that the man and the woman who
    are contemplating a committment have a lot in common. Same likes or
    dislikes. If there are any differences there's open communication
    between them to allow for compromising or solving problems that
    come up. He has to be a person you feel comfortable with... He gives
    you the feeling that your his equal, not notches below him....
    
        Rose

    	Just a quick word. I didn't mean to offend anyone with Jesus and
    how he would be as a husband or what have you. He would probably be a
    great husband and is a Father to many today (as part of the trinity)
    I don't mean to get into a religious debate. Discussions on faith are 
    hard to agree upon. I have respect for everyones belief so offence.
    
    	I was trying to	point out that part of my IDEAL MAN is that he is
    respectful of others and treats people equally. The problem is that as
    history has shown us time and time again that actions of others has
    forced good men into fighting others. My IDEAL MAN knows this and will
    go to a fight not because he wants to but because he is needed to. He 
    will defend the rights of others at his own expense. Even when some of the
    people he is defending don't appreciate it. 
    
    	This is just part of the IDEAL MAN
    
    			ZEEK 

    The Ideal Man does not and can not exist except in the eyes of the
    person doing the judging. As strange as it may seem some women or even
    a homosexual male may want their Ideal man to be violent. This is
    outragous to me but maybe not to some. Value reflection is the key. This 
    reflection is what values we hold dear, seen in the person being judged 
    as ideal. I consider my wife to be the Ideal woman. She loves me and I
    love her because of the sharing of mutual values, values that may be
    and probably are considered not to be valuable by others. Ideals are in
    the eys of the beholder.

        The IDEAL MAN defines himself, he does not live by another's definition.
    Being true to yourself is all that matters. All the rest is societal
    control crap.



    		HWL

    
  >  He can change a diaper, launder silks without shrinking them or
  >  hopelessly wrinkling them, can read care lables on  clothing, can follow
  >  directions, and can also clearly express his needs without screaming. 
  >  He can cuddle a baby, a kitten and a dog, and agrees with my beliefs on
  >  nonviolent discipline for kids.  
    
   

who would have ever guessed?  the ideal man is...




hazel!

8^)

bill    
    

    >  hopelessly wrinkling them, can read care lables on  clothing, can follow
    >  directions, and can also clearly express his needs without screaming.
    >  He can cuddle a baby, a kitten and a dog, and agrees with my beliefs on
    >  nonviolent discipline for kids.


    According to this the IDEAL man is a WOMAN. Surprised!



    		/hwl/

    Everyone is different, everyone has her/his own ideal.
    It is completly subjective.
    The definition of the ideal man or woman will defer for each one.
    
    Because of the civilisation you are living in, and because of your
    education and culture you may find some identical "features", but
    fortunately what is ideal for me is not the same as what is ideal for
    my neighbour.
    
    Thanks god, we are all different and unique.
    
    THIERRY

    .13
    
         I for one wasn't offended by what you said. I just thought about 
    what I said and decided that maybe I offended with joking about Jesus.
    No intention of that here either. Sometimes I forget that when your
    just writing and someone else is reading they don't see how you "said"
    it. They don't see the physical person, just the writing.
    
        Rose

    
    	I thought it would be to change a diaper with one hand while
    holding his nose with the other.....:)

    .20
    
         That's definately an Ideal Man.

    If you hold one hand to your nose you won't be able to do "the part" I
    mean, the real cleaning... as the other hand is holding "the" legs close to
    the diaper.... then the diaper itself, has to be taken away...
    
    I have seen the trick being done by the Ideal man, too.
    
    Ana

    	The only real problem comes when you have to take a bucket full of
    them down a slippery staircase for washing, and you slip from top to
    bottom still holding the bucket.
    
    	Dave, who has done the above (the bruises are gone now).

    And, of course, there's the towel over the p-gun so you don't get a
    golden shower while doing your "ideal man" labors of love.
    					Dan D

    We also have had "that" happening to us! now I know better... I was
    surprized to change a boy's diaper after having several girls... boy,
    what a shower!
    
    But... who cares? that's what grandmas are here for...
    
    the "Ideal" grandma.

    To the golddigger: He has a huge credit line is not afraid to use it.
    
    To the aging hippie: He has a well worn VW Microbus and a set of
    markers for making posters and is not afraid to use them.
    
    To the deeply religious (Christian):  He has a bible and is not afraid
    to read it. 
    
    To the sports fanatic: He is too and is in total heavan.
    
    To the TV watcher: He has a remote control and is not afraid to share
    it.
    
    Brian - feeling a little silly today.  

    Bring his paycheck home and not stop at a bar on the way.  Cook dinner
    as soon as he gets home. Clean dishes after dinner. Help the kids with
    homework.  Iron his clothes for the next morning. Be orally proficient
    in the evening. Hang up towels after shower. Hang up clothes. Mow the
    yard. Take out the trash. Listen well and be sensitive.  You can't
    miss!
    
    Mike

 .27>  Be orally proficient in the evening.

       YES, definitely brush your teeth!

    Re .28: No, no - be a good conversationalist!
    
    -b

    WRT .27: you forgot "Put the toilet seat back down."

    Very accurate male maid job description...

My wife said last night that one of the attributes of "the ideal man" is
that he doesn't think of himself as "ideal".  She noted that a lot of men
make a big point of how they "help" with the housework, cooking, or child
care as if it's not something they should be expected to do.  Of course,
this is reinforced by our society which exhorts men to "help" with such
things rather than getting them to realize that it's just as much their
responsibility as a woman's and that "share" is the more appropriate view.

(She's also said that "the ideal man realizes that the OUTSIDE of pots and
pans get dirty too...")

					Steve

    Re .16 and .17
    
    Since I live with the ideal man for me and we share two kids as well as
    helping me raise the oldest from 8 years on, I don't think the ideal
    man is a woman at all.  Nor is the ability to properly launder closes
    or care for children with love a strictly sex-linked trait.
    
    meg

    Fly a Lear jet, drive a caddi, and program large main frame computers
    is what I have been told as a young man what the world expects out of
    you to be the ideal man. 

    re: .34
    
    Just curious, George - who told you those things?
    
    Steve

    A book lad. One called the New Age Male. Written in the early 80s.;)
    Ever read 'Bongo the Bear'? ;)
    
    

    Seems to me, the ideal man would have the same important traits as the
    ideal woman. For me, there are only two things that make her ideal: she
    loves me for me, and knows the meaning of common courtesy. 
    RM

    re: .36 (George)
    
    > Ever read 'Bongo the Bear'?
    
    Nope.  But what can I say?  If you believed it when you read that the
    ideal man flies a Lear, drives a Caddy, and programs main frames,
    perhaps P.T. Barnum was right :-)
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  Would that I were a "lad"; perhaps you meant it in the British
    sense :-)

    Yep=lad=British sence.:)
    
    insofar as lears, caddy's, and programing. Yha gotta understand that
    it is a preception of men and what they should be doing.:) We are
    expected to do this and some. Hence the Ideal Man is an..........
    
    Bongo the Bear...') Remember that bears say they love you with a
    slap.")    
    
    
    
    _()))o
     expc 

I read somewhere that the ideal man is one who has made all the
moronic mistakes possible for a human to make, and has suffered so
greatly for them that he never will make them again. 

On the other hand, I've been told that the ideal man is Bruce 
Springsteen.

Go figure...   :-)

    re .1
    
    Meg-please have your ideal man tell me how to launder silks without
    hopelessly wrinkling them.  please,please,please?
    
    Christine-wearing-wrinkled-royal-silk :-)

    I was taught to spray the blouse (with water) and then iron with a not too
    hot temperature... it is easy and results, great. I've done it for
    years as I refuse to spend a fortune on dry cleaners... I spend "0" on
    dry cleaning for silk and very little for wool.
    
    Unfortunatelly, I'm not the perfect man or woman... only a person
    without early access to modern dry cleaners so I learned a few tricks!     

    He doesn't iron, but I do.  However using a gentle cycle or handwashing
    silks helps to cut down on the wrinkling.  A not so ideal person who did
    my laundry tossed a silk shirt in with the blue jeans and on the
    hottest setting that person could find.  Can you say silk cleaning rag?
    
    meg

    I press, not only my duds, but my little girls too. Press a dress, shop
    for her cloths. One of her most memorable experiences cloth shopping
    will always be the time the two of us went into Bradlees. I was buying
    her first two peice bathing suit. I was in the womens section, guess
    there is a left for the men and a right for the womens. And the
    guardian of all the cloths she could see told me to go to the right.:)
    Anyhow, I am in there, and she lets out this blood curdeling howel and
    then says,"Daaaa-deee! Why are you taking off my cloths?" Needless to
    say, I turned several shades of red, white, and blue, and tried to 
    avoid all eye contact till I got out of the store.:)
    
    

Ideal Man!

There is no such thing as an ideal man and for that matter an ideal woman 
either. We are all individuals with unique personalities and traits molded by 
our parents, friends and the environment we grow up in.

What we are all really looking for is someone who will conform to your own 
personal wims and lifestyle. Someone you can share a life with who won't 
drive you crazy in the process.

In any relationship, BOTH man and women (and any other combination of gender 
that seems to exist these days) must give and take the good with the bad. 
Even if that means that the man leaves the toilet seat up, while the women 
leaves her clothes all over the floor (even if we do not like the trait).

For any given non-ideal trait a woman can identify in her man, a man can 
likewise identify a non-ideal trait in his woman.


John (who is in a bad mood today.......and proud of it)

    re: 45.  Sounds like you read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are
    from Venus".
    
    	My hat is off to you.
    
    

    A man who will love you unconditional no matter what you do.....and it
    wouldn't hurt if he was Scottish.

    The Ideal Man already has a boyfriend.
    	[Sorry, it was too easy I couldn't resist]
    
    	Isn't Ideal a toy brand? Do they make dolls? If so the
    	Ideal Man is probably anatomically incorrect! GI Joe on
    	the other hand is a Mattel man. 
    

    Mattel made the stocks for the M16's of Viet Nam days too.........
    

    
    
    	Well,I am Scottish..but not ideal..Just ask my wife. 8'}

    I don't believe it....a modest Scotsman.
    
    

the ideal man is you, when you meet the ideal woman... she'll awaken the
ideal man in you... and she'll be just ideal for you, and the world will be 
a perfect place :-)

andreas.

    126.53
    
    Ahhh.....I we all could be so lucky.

    re: .53 (Andreas)
    
    > she'll awaken the ideal man in you... and she'll be just ideal for you,
    > and the world will be  a perfect place :-) 
    
    Hey, it worked for the Bobbitts. . .and the Pulitzers. . .and the
    Barr/Arnolds. . .and. . .   :-)
    
    Steve

    
    Re: earlier..
    
    
    Only Kidding......|8@}
    
    re: .53
    > she'll awaken the ideal man in you... and she'll be just ideal for you,
    > and the world will be  a perfect place :-)
    
    Brilliant.

    
    its twue.
    
    i know at least two who would make me an ideal man.

.57, can't imagine what suffering you must've been through ;-)

    
    The ideal man knows how to be a mechanic in the garage, a gardener in
    the yard, a carpenter in the basement, a cook in the kitchen, a teacher
    in the nursery, a gentleman in the parlor, and a stud in the bedroom ;^).
    
    fred();

    
    
    Have you been talking to my wife ? 8^))
    
    Andrew

    Talking about "diaper changing" I have to tell you about an expirence I
    had with my brother in-law and my 1 and a 1/2 year old nephew. My wife
    and sister in-law were off shopping, leaving the rug rat behind. We
    were playing pool, when I said "Donny you better take a look, I think
    your son is going poop!" He took his son upstairs and called me in a
    panic, I went upstairs and seen Jimmy on his back with poop from the
    back of his neck to the front of his belly button saying "Daddy don't
    puke on me!" while Donny was gasping for air. I told Donny he was on
    his own and ran to catch my breath. 
    
    So the Ideal Man must also help in potty training befor he's up to his
    eyeballs in poop!!  ;^)
    
    Mike

re: .46,

Never heard of the book actually, .45 was just my own thoughts on the subject 
at hand.

Glad you enjoyed it....


John

    RE: 126
    
    From a womens perpective...I would just want unconditional support and
    love. Basically, a great friend who turns me on when he kisses me.
    
    

    
    A big fat bulge in the wallet area doesn't seem to hurt any, either ;^)

    fred()

    126.64
    
    I you are referring to money...most women have their own these
    days....at least I do...
    
    Secondly, doesn't that cause back problems.....
    
    	
    

    
    re .66

>    I you are referring to money...most women have their own these
>    days....at least I do...

    At the risk of starting a rathole, most women will "marry up".
    You will rarely find a woman who will marry a man whose financial
    situation is less than her own.

>   Secondly, doesn't that cause back problems.....
    
    I was talking wallets, not purses :^).

    

    Incooommmmminnnnggg!

    fred(8^));

>    At the risk of starting a rathole, most women will "marry up".
>    You will rarely find a woman who will marry a man whose financial
>    situation is less than her own.

I tend to agree with the above, take any man who has been taken to the 
cleaners by his ex. How many women are lined up at the door?

Win the lottery. How many women are lined up at the door.?


Personally, I have found women who are financially struggling in today's 
world, the better catch. Women who seen to be doing par or better have the 
tendancy to be very materialistic which is a major turn off in my books. Your 
wallet becomes an extension to their personal habits. Mind you, in the first 
instance, there are a handful who try and live a champagne life style on a 
beer budget.

Now...apply that to men, that is another rat hole....

    
    Well folks me Ex took me to the cleaners, she got the CD's (not music
    either), the house (I got the mortgage bills), my daughter, and I
    got all the joint bills....
    
     What I found in return in the most wonderful woman in the world.  I
    was flat out broke (My attorney advised me to file bankrupcy) and
    told this woman I was.  It didn't matter to her, and she hasn't
    changed a bit in the three years we have been together.  She loves
    me, not money, not my income potential, just me.  
    
     We get married on September 24, 1994
    
     The line at the door was "one', one true, honest, loving, woman.
    
     Keep the cash, I'm richer than I've ever been before.
     
    Mark

Mark,

Your a lucky guy...you don't find too many around that are more interested in 
true love and intimacy over your wallet.


John

    
    Maybe it's a testament that men do possess some intelligence that 
    so few of the loving kind are "available" and so many of the 
    financial kind are ;^).

    At the risk of seeming to contradict myself, when my wife and I
    met, I was about as down as you can get.   No job, no future,
    my wife had disappeared with the kids for the last four months,
    and I was about two shades short of frantic.  I'd just been dumped
    by a woman that I'd have probably thrown it all overboard for.  
    I was getting really sick of the women who would want to dance with 
    me all night, who would come sit with me when some drunk got to 
    obnoxious, then they would head for the door with some loudmouth 
    jerk who'd had one to many a six pack ago.  Talk about getting
    an education.

    It was amazing how they came out of the woodwork when I got through
    college and landed a decent job with Digital, but by that time I
    was already pretty nailed down.  Hint: look for the idols.  Hers
    was and still is Roy Rogers ;^).  If it's Donald Trump, run for
    the hills ;^). And yes, I do know how fortunate I am (for 10 years
    now).

    fred();

    
    RE:70.
    
     I'm very, very, lucky.  Like I said I've never been richer.
    She feels the same way.  Never marry for money, once its gone
    your partner is still there ... Your relationship it what will make
    you rich...                       
    
    Mark

    Still poundin the pavement myself. Got real close a couple of times
    lately but the money and kid thing was a condition I couldn't keep or
    promise. So they walked. It's amazing how the facade of "unconditional
    love" gets exposed once the "work" begins. I envy you guys! I wish you
    the best. I'll keep on keepin on and some day... I guess the lesson
    here is don't give up. If you get tired and discouraged, take a break,
    but get back in there! 
    						Dan

    
    Re Dan,

    If that is the reason they walked, then you probably are indeed
    fortunate.  As I've said before,  some of the biggest favors
    God has done for me is when He _did't_ give me what I asked.

    Don't give up. There's still a few nuggets out there, but it
    seems that you have to sift through a lot of sand to find them.
    You have to know what you want and what to look for.  When I
    met my current wife, it took a while before I fell "in love",
    but I knew I had a keeper if she could put up with all the B.S.
    that was flying around in my life at the time.

    fred();

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fool's Gold," by Graham Parker and the Rumour, from "Heat Treatment," 
1976 (imho, the band's, and Parker's, best music ever)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been doin' my homework now 
For a long long time
And everything that I look for I know
I will one day find

Chorus:
I'm a fool, Heaven knows
I'll get left in the cold
'Cause I would search the world for that fool's gold

Oh the world may be full of girls
With their charms I'm sure
But the one that I seek will have much more
Than any I know

Chorus:
People say, Heaven knows
It will come, I suppose
But I will search the world for that fool's gold

    
    congrats to all who find the nuggets, good luck to
    all us who are still panning..