Conference quark::mennotes

    
    why is this series highly rated?  cause some people laugh at this
    stuff.
    
    same reason why Andrew Dice Clay is popular.

    Generally speaking the male lead on comedy shows, on American TV
    at least, is played as a clod or a jerk. Exceptions are almost
    always minority males. I suppose that this is caused by a white male
    dominated world using its influence to retain its power base. :-)

    			Alfred

    RE .2
    > I suppose that this is caused by a white male
    > dominated world using its influence to retain its power base.
    
    By portraying themselves as jerks? Perhaps their influence is not
    that great then. Or maybe they are jerks? That would explain a lot.
    
    			-Jim-

    RE: .3 Did you miss the smiley face? 

    			Alfred

the pentagram comment was great, but I also loved the line when he
blasted the lawyer and finished up saying...

"and I hope your head explodes and the bone fragments kill your dog!".

Still chuckling as I type this in.  ;^)

    
    One thing that I have noticed is how few black males are depicted in
    any show on TV as anything other than boobs, clowns, wife-beaters,
    murders, etc.  I can think of only a couple off hand that are not.
    One is the black scientist on "Viper" and  the other is Worf (actually
    plays a Klingon) on Star Treck.  White males fare little better other
    than they get to play the gun-slingers and karate-choppers.
    
    fred();

Re. .6

>One thing that I have noticed is how few black males are depicted in
>any show on TV as anything other than boobs, clowns, wife-beaters,
>murders, etc.  I can think of only a couple off hand that are not.

 Actually I can think of a quite a few shows that have good and
 intellectual black male characters who don't fit the description
 above.

 Current

 The First Mate on SeaQuest
 The Father on Fresh Prince of Belaire
 The Father on Different Strokes
 Bill Cosby
 The plastic surgeon friend on Dave's World
 Sinbad
 Rock on Rock Live
 The Luitenant on NYPD Blue

 Past

 Benson
 Hawk on Spencer for Hire
 Tubs on Miami Vice


 

 Personally I think Grace Under Fire is a satire on single parenting
 and the problems that are associated with this all to common lifestyle.
 There was a similar show where a single father was dealing with problems
 of being a Non Custodial Parent but I forget the name of it.

 Anyway the writers poke fun at the males in this show and and their
 stereotypical behaviors because we as an audience get a chuckle out
 of it and probably even believe some of the stereotypes to be true.

 I think Grace Under Fire is a harmless sitcom that like all sitcoms
 exagerates on reality for a laugh. Look at shows like Married with
 Children where all generations and gender stereotypes are being poked
 fun at. Or Coach with the typical Jock Male stereotype or Home Improvement
 with the Male Mr. Know it All. People should not take these shows seriously
 and if they are offended by them then just don't watch.

 Neil...

            re .7

    
 The First Mate on SeaQuest			!I'll agree with that one
 The Father on Fresh Prince of Belaire		!Nope just a strait man
    						!dork to be made fun of
 The Father on Different Strokes		!Nope another straight man
    						!dork to be made fun of
 Bill Cosby					!nope a clown
 The plastic surgeon friend on Dave's World	!Never watch it
 Sinbad						!you gotta be kidding
 Rock on Rock Live				!Another you gotta be kinnin
 The Luitenant on NYPD Blue			!Never watch it

    So giving you the two that I don't watch.  That makes five.  Usually
    when a "successful" black male is presented it is usually as a straight
    man to be made fun of and joked about for yucks for the main character.

    I also wonder about how well some of the "steryotypes" that you  think
    are so great for this show would fly if applied to other than white
    males.  I probably won't have wonder very hard.

fred();

    re .9, I always thought Bill Cosby was portrayed as an idealistic,
    perfect man.  How could a "clown" get a medical degree, own a beautiful
    home and support a gorgeous, intelligent wife, and gigantic but
    over-achieving family?   Sure, he may be the recipient of a few jokes,
    but it's only funny because we all know he's the voice of ultimate
    wisdom, and not a clown at all.   :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .10 
    
>    How could a "clown" get a medical degree, own a beautiful
>    home and support a gorgeous, intelligent wife, and gigantic but
>    over-achieving family?   
    
    That's what I wondered ;^).  I also wondered how, being a doctor,
    he had so much time on his hands.
    
    fred();

    Welp.... laughter is the worlds best medicine.;)  Hummmm..... wounder
    if there is a doctorial in humor???;)
    
    

    
    I've never seen -- or even heard of -- this show, but I saw Brett
    Butler in a stand-up comedy special on Showtime and thought she
    was hilarious. :-) :-)
    
    As far as the men being portrayed as idiots goes, on "Leave It To
    Beaver" years ago, the Beaver's father, Ward, seemed to me to be
    a pretty normal guy, but he is still hated today by thousands --
    possibly millions!  America won't be ready for another decent
    father on teevee until it recovers from the last one. 
    
    I hereby call for a end to all "Beaver bashing."
    
    ;-)
    
    bill 

    Andy Griffith was a good TV father, and look how successful Opie has
    become!
    
    Lorna
    
    PS - not to mention all those great western dads we babyboomers grew-up
    watching, such as Lorne Green on Bonaza, or Pa on The Rifelman.  :-)
    

I have not seen the show in question.  I recall reading an item in TV Guide
in which the author winced at much of the same "male-bashing" in initial
episodes but said also that this seems to have been toned down in later
episodes.

However, I agree that male-bashing is considered safe today on TV and in
advertisements.

				Steve

>However, I agree that male-bashing is considered safe today on TV and in
>advertisements.

 In society in general. Same with white bashing. I guess what it boils down to
is anyone considered part of the "majority" is eligible to be bashed. It's
only the bashing of those who have any claim to minority status that is
off limits.

    Re .16: I think it's those who are considered "advantaged," not
    necessarily part of a majority. It's "OK" to joke about something that
    carries its own advantages, because the person must be getting enough
    good from the trait that s/he can stand some ridicule - or something
    like that. Hence jokes about rich people are just fine, because being
    rich is supposedly a wonderful thing. Jokes about beautiful people are
    OK. Jokes about powerful people are OK. [Wanna be on everybody's
    name-dropping list? Get elected to high office - you'll be the mainstay
    of every stand-up routine in the country in a matter of days...]
    
    I don't know that male-bashing proponents (of which I'm not one, btw;
    I prefer equal-opportunity comedians, who can be funny about anybody)
    subscribe to the theory that being male (or white male) is enough of an
    advantage to open that group up for any kind of humor, or if they're
    thinking more along the lines of making up for past offenses - tat for
    tit, I suppose one could say. [FWIW, I notice that I generally find
    such comedy - no matter who's being bashed - more amusing if the comic
    appears to be working from their own experiences rather than from the
    latest magazine-poll trends. But if the comic's funny enough, I can
    forgive much. ;-)]
    
    -b

    re .17, don't forget thin people and blondes on the list of who it's
    okay to make fun of.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    deep space nine, the installation commander.

    .....the one eye'ed gargoil with a hunch in his back???
    
    
    trr

    Where are the great female role models of the boob tube?
    
    People enjoy Grace Under Fire because lots of people can identify with
    her. This type of person happens to watch tv.
    
    Kate

    Jeez, where do you people find so much time to watch TV?  I've never
    heard of half of these shows....
    
    Incidentally, aren't the lead roles in Seinfeld and Home Improvement
    white males with reasonably respectable roles?  I mean, they are
    sitcoms, so you can't expect them to be saints....  These are two of
    the top rated shows in TV, right?  I don't get to watch them much, but
    I don't see them getting bashed around too much...
    
    tim
    

        Can't talk about Seinfeld, never watch it, but what I've seen of
    Home Improvement, it's about an ultra-macho wannabe who's really
    a dork, and has to go to his ultra-wise non-macho neighbor all the
    time for advice on how to run his personal life.
    
    fred();

        Speaking of the ultra-wise non-macno neighbor on Home Improvement.  Ever
    notice that he's a bachelor ;^).

    On he other hand he may be married and that's why he spends all his
    time out in the back yard :^}.
    
    fred();

 I think Home Improvement is not only a Great Sitcom but also a real
 good lesson in family/home improvement. Yes Tim Taylor does seem to
 be the guy who most needs the help of Wilson's advice but at times
 Jill and each of the boys  have gone to the back yard for a little
 helpful advice from Wilson. I wished I had a backyard family counselor
 to help with problems and give a listening ear when things got a bit
 out of control at home.
 

 Three Cheers for Home Improvement a great family show!

 Another good one is Full House!

 Phenom also has some potential but needs some work in the writing
 and acting dept.

 However I'd have to give a thumbs down to Roseanne and the way her
 show presents its humor and disfunctional family behaviors and
 controversal subject matter. I would personaly prefer it be in a
 later than 9pm timeslot and is not in my opinion a good family show.

 My overall feelings on Grace Under Fire is that it is not particularly
 what I consider a family show either and like Rosanne should also be
 aired later than 9pm.

 Neil...

 

    
    Is it my imagination or has anyone else noticed how Homer Simpson has
    changed from a poor hard-working slob just trying to make ends meet
    and the victim of Bart's acting up to an ultra-slob who is just about
    as bad, if not as bad, as Bart?

    fred();

.13> As far as the men being portrayed as idiots goes, on "Leave It To
.13> Beaver" years ago, the Beaver's father, Ward, seemed to me to be
.13> a pretty normal guy, but he is still hated today by thousands --

     In catching up with this string I found this interesting and it
     reminded me of our last monthly WCS (Ward Cleaver Society) meeting...

     The president of our WCS chapter had invited a woman (somehow affiliated
     with NOW which made me question their _real_ agenda) to give her 
     presentation titled "Incorporating a Woman's Natural Propensity Toward
     Multiple Orgasms into a Happy Marriage".  She starts off the lecture
     with the statement "Whenever June would announce to her husband, 
     "Ward, it's the Beaver...", she REALLY WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HER KID!!!".
     Well, THAT got my attention!  Since having had children myself, I've
     become quite sensitive to certain slang/idioms and have even attempted
     to adjust my own vernacular accordingly.  What really gets_my_goat is
     when so-called professionals use the term "kid/kids" as a reference for
     "child/children".  Those of you who can empathize with me know that 
     an opening like this can sour a whole presentation - you tend to distrust
     the speaker...  Well, that's what happened to me.  I did let the woman
     know and even used some of her vaunted "tongue-lashing" technique when I
     filled out the evaluation form.

     This same woman is scheduled to do another lecture to our Sister
     organization, The June Cleaver Society...  I don't really know if my
     wife should even bother.  The title of the presentation is "Wake Your
     Husband Up With a Smile On His Face - Blow Revellie" and we don't even
     HAVE a bugle...

...and Happy April Fools Day to you too...;-)

Re: bugle

Uh, have you got any paper towels. I just sprayed coffee all over my
workstation...

;^)
Bruce

    I have heard prior to reading this string that the name Beaver Cleaver
    was, uh, well.... sort of a joke the screenwriters played on us all.
    
    Jeff

    .... maybe is kinda like a woman calling herself Muffy, or Pussy, or
    Cherry. I guess its all in a name.

re: .-1

>	.... maybe is kinda like a woman calling herself Muffy, or Pussy, 
>	or Cherry. I guess its all in a name.


	My wife's name is Cherry.  What do you mean by that last comment?

	

>     <<< Note 122.26 by CSC32::HADDOCK "Don't Tell My Achy-Breaky Back" >>>
>
>    
>    Is it my imagination or has anyone else noticed how Homer Simpson has
>    changed from a poor hard-working slob just trying to make ends meet
>    and the victim of Bart's acting up to an ultra-slob who is just about
>    as bad, if not as bad, as Bart?
>
>    fred();
    
    Not sure. I don't watch it enough to follow the pattern. When the half
    hour shows came on, though, I noticed immediately that it was quite
    different from the original 5 minute cartoons in the Tracy Ullman show.
    Those were far harsher, more nihilistic. The half hour show has less of
    an edge, including an ending that is generally upbeat, even sappy.
    
    Kit

    Back to Grace Under Fire.
    
    	If hasn't been mentioned yet. How about Grace's friends husband. He
    is a Vietnam vet who has taken up pottery to deal with delayed stress
    from the war. He learned it in Vietnam from tribesmen. Real good guy
    and his wife loves him for what he is. He's not a slob or a jerk or a
    drunk. They don't have him on enough. Grace recently has been cooling
    down on the men bashing I think
     

    
    I liked last night's episode.  "When baby troll comes, then daddy troll
    has to leave".
    
    The pharmisist guy looks better and better.  I thought the date sceen
    was rather funny.  They were worried about how to dump their dates
    and returned to find that their dates had dumped _them_.

    :25 You need to reevaluate your definition of family.
    
    It is a great family show for a single mother of multiple children.  It
    seems you have missed some key episodes which go on to say that some
    single moms are willing to work in a less than cushy environment to 
    provide for their children, sacrifice a social life to be there for
    them, feel real pain when they are rejected by new men because they
    have children, they are still supporting friends of others going
    through tough times, are willing to put up with abusive ex's and inlaws
    for the benifit of their children, that they have many unfulfilled
    needs but aren't going to whine about it til some "prince charming"
    comes aong to save the day.  
    
    If there was male bashing in the beginning, it may just depict the
    real healing process one goes through when they are abused.  Anger...
    then progress. 
    
    lp

    Haven't seen the show but have seen Brett Butler on the comedy channel
    and find her to be very funny. Wow. All these shows mentioned and I get
    to miss them all (one definite advantage to second shift!). Much rather
    watch her than that boring Seinfeld. To each his own. Do love the
    Comedy Channel though. Real comedy? "Whose Line Is It Anyway?"