Conference quark::mennotes

Thanks for sharing.  It sounds like a tough situation.

First of all, start attending ALANON meetings if you haven't already.  As you
probably know, the guiding principle is the serenity prayer:

	Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage
	to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference


It's that last bit about "wisdom to know the difference" that is the kicker.

Through the meetings, and the support you can get from people there, see if
it's possible to talk to your wife about your desire for custody.  You might
save yourself alot of laywer bills.  (But yes, get a lawyer, I'm just saying
you might not need to use the lawyer for a big battle, since she might be
willing for you to have custody).

One big question I see looming here for you, in terms of the serenity prayer:
Is talking to your wife about your desire for custody something that you need
to accept that you can't change ?  Or is it something you need courage to do ?

/Eric

    By reading your note you KNEW that both had married for the wrong reason...
    before you married... whem something starts badbly from the start it
    does NOT get any better later on in life...
    
    I feel bad for your daughters, the situation is difficult for all
    concerned, but much more so for them because they're so young and
    vulnerable... I truly sympasize with you and hope that the judge will
    act with wisdom to resolve the situation in the best way possible.  You
    are doing your best and that sure will help.
    
    Cheers.

First off, I'm sorry to hear this is happening to your family.
Sounds from your note, you're not even considering saving
the marriage... and you're already looking ahead to the 
next step...

As far as custody goes, this is where it gets a little unfair when
it comes to this situation (Father wanting custody)...
 
I've never been in your shoes, but some people who are very
near to me, (Brother-in-laws, who are like brothers) have
been...  From what I've seen it's a totally frustrating battle,
with nothing but bad news for the father..

The system tends to lean towards the mothers... unless she's proven
unfit, and alcholism won't make a huge difference... (one of
my brother-in-laws had a situation where his ex, during the
divorce, got a taste for cocaine, and was aressted three or four
times on posession, and hard to believe, it didn't work in his
favor.. (Here's where a snazy lawyer for the ex really helped out
I guess..)

And when it comes time for the custody hearings, she'll probably 
have a lawyer who will teach her everything she needs to know about 
retaining the kids, and getting enough child support to keep her glass 
full..

What will make matters worse for you is if you leave, then go
after custody.

You'll call leaving, Emotional Survival,,,  her lawyer will call it
desertion.  It would be better off for you, if she left, at least
that would be one card in your favor....   and you'll need every
one you can get.  In Mass. the bias leans heavy to the mother,
like I said, she has to be unfit to loose custody.

and as .2 I wish you the same,..  a judge who decides with wisdom,
and not with the "Mother hood and apple pie" idiom that so many
judges decide with.  Clearly your duaghters will not be in a healthy
environment given your wifes condition....  

I guess you have to ask yourself if you can change this ? if you can 
help ? or if you even want to ???  Tough answers never come easy

Best of luck..

My wife told me of a cousin of hers, who got a divorce granted from his wife
on the grounds that she was an unfit parent.  Guess who got awarded custody of 
the kids?  That's right, the "unfit parent".  Sigh....

				Steve

    
    I am also sorry to hear of your situation!  
    The serenity prayer and alanon meetings are a good idea.  In the real 
    world  when good fathers want custody nobody cares, least of all
    the judge who makes the decision.  I can speak from experience. 
    I am a good father who was denied custody and also was unable to 
    stop former wife from moving out of state. I have always and continue
    to pay child support despite all of this.
       If your wife is abusive I would advise you to get a restraining 
    order to remove her from the house, ask for temporary custody and then
    file for divorce and permenent custody of your children. Make sure she
    has a court order to pay child support!!    If you are succesfull at 
    this be prepared to still lose custody of the children.  Nobody cares
    whether fathers ever see their children except the fathers who love
    them!    If you don't get custody there is a 40% chance your ex will
    move away with the children making you a distant dad like myself.
      I know it sounds cruel but I am giving you the same advice that 
    most women give each other when they are facing divorce.
    That is why so many fathers get booted out of their homes and separated
    from their children.  The most important thing is the that the children
    continue to see both parents and if possible shielded from the battle.
    
       Good Luck!!!!      contact me if you want.
    

    I suggest you do your thinking about tactics FIRST.  I don't know if
    you have mentioned the pending breakup to her but if you havn't, find
    out the alternatives and likely way you will be treated by the system
    as you are doing in this string.  I am no expert on this but it sounds
    to me as if you will lose custody of the kids if you take this to
    court, and, it doesn't seem to matter how sick she is and how pure your
    motives are.
    
    I think I would let what is best for the kids be my guiding princple.  
    
    You may KNOW whats best for the kids but that doesn't mean thats whats
    going to happen......so whats best for the kids has to take reality
    into account.  i.e. if the system is likely to leave the kids with her
    and thats worse than having the two of you 'together' as you currently
    are, then, its clear that whats best for the kids is to stay together
    in spite of the problems.
    
    Of course if you can get her to agree to give you custody your all set.  But
    from the sound of it... she ISN'T going to consider whats best for them
    she will probably go with what she thinks is best for her and opt to
    keep/fight for custody.
    
    Good luck with this one.
    
    Jeff
    
    

the only way this will work in 'Dads' favor is if the wife
leaves.  He can then file the restraining order, and file for
"TEMPORARY" Custody...  That's ALL he can hope for right now.

If SHE files a restraining order on him, it's just about over,
Game Point!  Match over, Wife Wins all!

So...I think the worst thing would be leaving....  Like I mentioned,
that is considered desertion, and wouldn't look good regardless
of what the circumstances are.

You wouldn't believe how much information will be dragged up
against the father, and how little similar information on
the mother, never shows up...  For instance,,,,

One brother-in-law was thrown out, twice, first time, asked back,
went back, second time, asked back said "no way"  Lawyer told the
judge, "he deserted his family, how can he be serious about custody"
his lawyer just sat there, spoke not a word...  Judge asked him
"Why did you desert your children ?? How can you cause this kind
of anguish to your wife and children??"  Again, remember he was thrown
out twice, told "I don't love you anymore, go away"  But yet, he was
still accused of desertion, and not one person thought about his
emotions through all of this.....  

Then,,, 3 years go by, the mother unoffically surrendors custody of the
kids, 5 years later, she wakes up and wants custody back, brother-in-law
fights back, judge starts asking questions about non-payment of child
support for the 5 years he had the kids!!!  Go Figure...  Guess
who has the kids today....

Like I said, it's purely a one sided system...

Perhaps seeing someone from DSS (I know, most are ineffective)
may be a good experience.

    
    Maybe this is a really stupid question, but:
    
    	how come a man can't leave AND take the kids?
    
    It's what many women have to do in order to get away from an abusive
    spouse.

Because...

	the bias is on the mothers side regardless of the situation...
	

	Why ?  cuz for the most part, (majority...) it's the
	right decision.

	Problem:  Judges dealing with and making decisions for
		  the exceptions.....  Call it living with black
		  and white in a world of gray...

    He can leave and take the kids.  Its probably the best chance he has
    at getting custody unless he has an airtight case of the children
    being in extreme jeopardy by being in the mothers custody. However, its
    tough to imagine what it takes to make an airtight case against the
    mother...I doubt just being an alcoholic will do it....Maybe if she was
    arrested for DWI and had the kids with her a couple of times it would
    help his cause, but thats real questionable.  Remember, the judge always
    wants to give them to the mother, all judges perceive that to be their
    job.....giving children to the mother, along with most of the community
    property, whether its in the kids best interest or not, thats the
    present day situation.  
    
    Leaving with the kids puts the women in the defensive position and
    causes her to fight to get the kids back, makes it harder for her even 
    though the entire court system is stacked in favor of the mother.  Even
    in this ridiculous system possession is ninth tenths of the law....But
    beware, the only time dad can leave with the kids is prior to going
    into court, while he still has his parental rights, once temporary
    custody is granted to the mother, he is no longer legally able to take
    the kids away and he will be in contempt if he does.  
    
    Once he has temporary custody, then delay, delay, delay, is usually the 
    best policy.  Keeps the risk low of having a judge arbitrarily change 
    the order in favor of the mother who tells him that she is now 
    recovered and wants her kiddies back, judges love mom's who tell them 
    they have recovered from drink, drugs, or whatever, doesn't
    matter how good dad is, the judge will let mom have a chance to prove
    she's now ok with the kiddies, and boom! dad is back to being
    non-custodial.  
    
    Another pitfall today is that more and more women are acusing the
    father of molesting the children, this normally is a guarantee that
    the mother will keep the kids, or get them back if Dad took them, even
    if the judge doesn't believe the story, he feels this is the only way
    he can be on safe ground, it just casts one more shadow on the
    father, who starts out with 10 strikes against him in this situation,
    and it is almost impossible for a man to defend himself against this.
    
    The best way to handle this, if at all possible, is for the parents to 
    decide what the custody arrangements will be up front and then go to court 
    to get a rubber stamp approval from the judge.  Mediation might also
    might make the mother see the situation in its true light and realize the 
    kids are better off with the father, If she is allowed to do this in a way 
    that doesn't make her look like the bad guy for giving the kids to him.
    
    In order for the father to leave with the kids or get a restraining
    order against the mother, it is very likely that it should be done without
    giving the mother advance notice, doesn't give her time to do it to him
    first, and doesn't give her time to prepare by seeing a lawyer.  
    
    I really think that the only way someone can be assured of the outcome
    in the state of Massachusetts is to take the kids and move far away
    with them, and this only works if the mother hasn't got the money to
    hire someone to come find them and steal the kids back.
    
    I don't think that anyone can possibly understand just how predjudiced
    the Massachusetts court system is towards fathers in custody disputes
    until they have experienced it.  It is absolutely incredible, its very
    hard to believe that this sort of predjudice and corruption can be going
    on right under our noses in 1993.  It is equally hard to understand
    why some group of men hasn't filed a federal suit on this major
    violation of their and the childrens rights....It's long past due. 
     
    Good luck, I hope you are able to work this out between you, that would
    be truly in the best interests of the kids.
    
    B
    
    PS: you might also check the non_custodial_Parents notes, it is full of 
    handy bits of advise on what did and did not work.

Another point - there are many well-publicized cases where the mother, even
though she did not have custody, kidnapped the children, went to another
state and got a court to grant her custody.  (They've even made TV movies
out of such cases, sympathetic to the mother, naturally.)

If this happens, any court order you have granting you custody isn't worth a 
nickel.  If you believe this to be a risk, you may not want to allow 
unsupervised visitation.

My first piece of advice would be to go talk to a competent lawyer NOW!

				Steve

    trouble is.....I'm not sure there is such a thing as a competent Lawyer
    when it comes to fathers/custody.
    
    I've seen a father that went to a lawyer before he took any action at
    all, including telling the mother he wanted a divorce.  He picked a
    Lawyer based on recommendation.  The lawyer was bad, I don't think I
    have ever seen anyone get run over the coals any worse in a divorce
    then this guy has been.  He lost everything including the kids.  One of
    the kids later moved in with him, which gaves him split
    custody......Split custody in Massachusetts means the mother collects
    32 % of the fathers gross salary for the one kid she has left, and the
    father and his child are thrown to the wolves.  The child that moved in
    with the father is no longer considered by the court.  They continue to
    view the mother as having 2 children for child support purposes,
    and the father as having 0 children.  
    
    He should have had the advantage in this situation, but every bit of
    advise he received was wrong....or maybe it doesn't make any difference
    in Massachusetts whether the advise is good or bad, the father always
    loses anyway.  
    
    I'm not sure how one can be sure you have a good attorney here.  Dad's
    cost for going after custody is about $20,000.00, if he loses and he
    appeals, it can cost another $10,000.00....odds are he is likely to lose 
    the appeal also.  Who can honestly afford to do this?  Once the two
    attorneys start working the system, both parents and the children are
    the losers, the attorneys will play the game for as long as it takes to
    extract every last dime out of the couple. 
    
    If the entire case rests on proving the mother is bad for the
    kids, most of the time the father is going to lose.  Massachusets does
    not consider who is the better parent, or who is in the better or more
    stable position for the kids, they assume the mother is, and this is
    often not the case.
    
    Working it out with the mother, or taking possession of the kids up
    front is the only way for most fathers to ever get a chance at custody
    regardless of how good they are or how bad she is.
    
    B
    

    G'day,
    
    Maybe I have stronger views on preserving marriage, and the bit
    about for better and for worse...  dunno
    
    
    My family have been through extensive problems due to my wife's ill
    health. But we've made it with my wife now returned to good health.
    Sure we've all get scars but we're together and _still a family_.
    
    A past friend of mine recounted how when his wife was seriously ill he
    left his job to look after her for a couple of years until she was again
    well. His attitude... she was most important to me. I could always get
    another job. How many of us have that attitude? 
    
    Now clearly they (and I should like to think 'we') married for the
    right reasons. But are reasons any more right or wrong later just
    because circumstances have changed? The marriage is made and is
    something to be worked on - together. And if one partner cannot, then
    the other must try to somehow help them to recover and to contribute. 
    
    Have you considered changing your lifesyle to provide total support to
    your wife so she can be pulled out of the mire and put on her feet
    again and so you can be a family again? Kids are pretty resilient -
    more than we are generally. I am sure they would rather have mum well
    again than go through the changes that they will experience.
    
    
    
    I do not want to seem holier than thou. I know its hard. Been there
    done that (although the problem was not alcohol) but my experience is
    that the effort really is worthwhile, even if it takes a while.
    
    You are not alone. There are support systems. Use them and yell and
    scream for help until you get it.
    
    My 2�
    
    
    derek
         

    I would suggest that "marrying for the wrong reasons" is an event in
    the past.  Why you married in the first place is not relevant to who
    you are now or what you can make of your life in the future.  There are
    plenty of people who married for the "right" reasons, but later grew 
    apart and are now barely on speaking terms.  There are also happily 
    married couples (such as my grandparents) who admit they married for 
    the "wrong" reasons.
    
    	Sharon
    

    I agree with the reply that pointed out that the basenoter should
    carefully check out his options first. If I were in his boots, for
    example, I would consult with someone who really understands the law,
    in both its technical and practical manifestation, as it relates to
    child custody in divorce cases in Massachusetts.  It would seem risky
    to me to put too much faith in blanket statements about how fathers are
    treated based on a handful of anecdotal horror stories.
    
    Kit

    trouble is, the horror stories are not limited to a handful, its almost
    every father who has ever tried to gain custody without his wife
    either:
    1. giving him permission to have the kids. (very rare)
    2. wife dies.
    
    Any other instance of the father getting custody is a pure quirk!
    
    Good Luck, but don't assume these stories are the exception, they are
    the average for men try to fight for custody.
    
    B

    even in the case of "2. wife dies." there have been cases of
    "grandmother wants custody (and support)" that have led to horror
    stories.  There was one mentioned in the earlier version of mennotes.
    
    ed

    I know of a couple who have had a grandmom go for custody because the
    child was flunking english! I know of another grandmom, or
    mother-out-law who moved in on the custodial dad and tried to have him
    thrown out of the abode, and set herself up for custody. 
    
    Yep. Its a fun world. 

    
    
    I have a little different story. I have won custody in the state of
    Mass. It's a long story but it can be done. My possible headache is
    she is now threatening to take me back to court in yet another fight
    for custody. My son has now been living with me for approx. 2 yrs.
    She fills his head with the garbage that if he were with her thing    
    would be golden. My attorney says wait and see. The courts here are
    severely backed up and if your lawyer knoes what he/she is doing you
    can back it up even more. 
     My confusion/disbelief is that the state will even consider changing
    custody again. I supply a stable home, But this is the state of Mass.
    

    CONGRADS!!! In Mass yet!!! WOW! THIS is something to celebrate about.
    Good luck and congrads!

    The really amazing part would be if he not only won custody, but
    also got child support from her based on the mass Guidelines, plus
    actually got to stop paying her child support for the son that lives
    with him.......If all that actually happened, and the court didn't just
    leave the percentage he had been paying her the same and call it spousal
    support, then it truly is unusual.  Now the tactic is to stall stall 
    stall.....forever, until the child hits 23 yrs!
    
    -bb
                        

    
        I waived the right to get child support. Yes the judge offered
    the option. I did stop paying child support. Another amazing thing
    is I had a famale judge. The most important portion of my winning
    is that in court instead of just presenting her case my ex was more
    intent at attacking me. I took everything she through at me and one
    at a time defended all claims. The judge even stated how impressed
    she was at my composure. When asked about support I simply replied
    that I was not here for the money but get custody of my son.
        I don't see if it comes up how a court/judge will overrule another
    judge. My lawyer has told me in response to her threats that 1)Most
    of the time they are just that - Threats. 2)If it ever gets to court
    she has to prove why things have changed where as it's better for my
    son to live with her. This will be tough.
        Anyone with any other questions please ask.

    re .0
    Congrats on getting custody.
    
    In Colorado (yes a different state) the Courts are reluctant to change
    custody once it has bee awarded.  The laws are written such that the
    child almost has to have been given up voluntarily or has to be in
    physical danger.  You may want to check the laws that regulate change
    of custody.  If they are as strict as they are in Colorado, she has
    little or no chance of getting custody changed unless the child is
    a teenager and the court gives strong weight to the child's wanting a
    change.

    Getting a change or an award in child support, however, is almost 
    automatic.

    fred();

Re: .24

It's the same in New Hampshire.

		Steve

    Which court system heard your case?  
    
    I would think it would be difficult for her to take you back to court,
    their has to be substantial change in circumstances, or she would have
    to prove the child was in danger/jeopardy with you.  The only other
    possibility would be for the child to decide to move back with her and 
    then do so, once that happened she would have the substantial change
    required to take you back to court.   I suspect this would only
    work if the child is older, like in its teens.  
    
    As long as the child lives with you and wants to live with you there 
    should be no problem.  There is of course a couple of notable
    exceptions to this rule, but the child was very young, and it involved
    false accusations by the spouse.
    
    You should ask for child support.  If the situation were reversed the
    judge would not have even considered allowing no child support, it
    would have at least been set at the minimum amount.  At the very least, 
    if she continues to threaten you, or takes you to court for any reason, 
    you should counter with a motion for child support from her.  That 
    thought may give her good reason to stop what she has been doing, you 
    have been very generous in refusing support, and she doesn't understand 
    the financial pain you could cause her via the court and the DOR.
    
    -bb
                                

    
    What do you need to prove get child custody in MA. ??
    
    I am currently separated and in my opinion, my wife is not leading a
    good home life (already), for the kids.  She is allowing family w/
    friends (men) that she doesn't know stay there with the her and the 
    kids.  She has been going out all night leaving the kids with her
    mother, frequently.  Her mothers boyfriend is a convicted felon
    convicted of violent crimes...
    
    It seems that things that we would decide against for the kids best 
    interest when we were together, she is purposely doing now (and letting
    me know about it) just to hurt me, make me worry about my kids well 
    being.
    
    by the way, does anyone know of (or is there a topic regarding) a 
    good divorce attorney?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ron.

Note 6 contains various referrals that you may find of use.  That you don't
already have an attorney is not a good sign. 

				Steve

    What do you need to prove? 
    
    1. That the custodial parent is putting the children in danger. Like,
    leaving them at home alone, or not feeding them, or indroducing them to
    child molesters and other fellons. Beating them, molesting them.....
    
    The best thing to do is to document, document, and then document
    all things that you encounter. Bruses, what ever the children tell you,
    baring the fact that your not probing or making them say things that
    are false. 
    
    In mass its a tuff slide to get the guys criminal records, if you can
    find clippings of news paper articles showing that he was convicted
    of such and such will help your cause. Documenting that there is 
    another car in the yard by taking pictures, baring the fact that there
    is no restraining order on you or any agent of yours. Get pictures of
    cars and plates that sit in the yard. Get afadavids from the fellons
    ex wife(s) about what sort of fellow he is/isn't. Out side of that....
    Pray, lots.
    
    Peace
    

    also read :
    
    QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS