Conference quark::mennotes

    
    Yeah when I had a girlfriend and she had PMT, I used to get bad ear
    aches.
    
    does that qualify?
    
    bakes

    Pure Fiction.
    
    Marc H.

I'm confused - men don't menstruate, so how could men have anything termed
"pre-menstrual"?

				Steve

    I am also confused....
    Are there some males who believe that men menstruate?

RE: .3

Well, I haven't menstruated yet, so maybe my whole life is just one big case
of pre-menstrual tension.

- Jim

    Any guy who's had a wife/girlfriend who suffers from PMT/PMS will have
    suffered.
    
    In the past i've had semi boiling hot water poured over my crotch and
    also been kicked in the crotch to mention only a few.
    
    And for doing nothing....no provocation.Difficult to relate to it. 

Re: .6

What you describe is physical abuse, and would be, to me anyway, absolutely
unacceptable in a relationship no matter what the cause.  Women are supposed
to be learning not to put up with abuse from their partners; men should
learn the same.

				Steve

'course men don't menstruate - anybody would think this was the 'box !!

I thought it was a known fact that some women can and do suffer during PMT.
My ex-wife (maybe that's the reason she's my x) during PMT would suffer 
depression, anxiety and spouts of aggression which were really not her. She
suffered but as a result of her problem I suffered along. The depressions
were hard to handle but one time she attacked me with a bread knife - I was just
lucky the dog liked me.

bakes - sure, that qualifies.

- Paul.
 

    Re .6
    
    > Any guy who's had a wife/girlfriend who suffers from PMT/PMS will
    > have suffered.
    
    I'll thank you to speak for yourself, please.  Your bandying about of
    the word "any" is entirely uncalled for.  My wife suffers from PMS, and
    the only suffering I have ever endured because of it was concern to
    ease her mental and physical discomfort.

    Re .8: Gee, and here I was thinking you were referring to the
    theoretical "male hormone-induced mood swing" syndrome, often compared
    to PMS though not tied to quite so obvious a physical phenomenon.
    
    The whole concept of "moods" is good for hours of entertaining debate,
    if one is so inclined. How much of this is "in the mind"? Since some
    people can put themselves into good moods or bad ones apparently at
    will, does this mean that anybody who claims to be the victim of a mood
    swing is really a hypochondriac? Are we talking about quantifiable
    physiological changes that are variable enough and subtle enough that
    it's hard to track just what causes which? Do men's hormone levels
    fluctuate in a predictable fashion, and does this have any effect on
    their temperament or emotional state? How does one go about collecting
    data on these phenomena - "moods" are generally quite subjective, and
    two people with the same relative level of chemical imbalance [if
    that's what it is] may react very differently...
    
    Things that can affect one's mood [and which are probably under study
    by some government-funded agency Even As We Speak]: colors, scents,
    temperatures, sunlight, humidity, tension, blood sugar, caffeine (and
    all sorts of other "chemicals are our friends" substances), and, very
    probably, hormones - your own as well as those of others, whose
    reactions to them may have more of an effect on your mood than their
    own. So. If someone's being unusually testy, can we deduce the cause,
    or should we simply back away quietly before anybody gets hurt? 
    
    Watch for my new book, "People Who Snap at People, and the People Who
    Have to Work/Live/Love with Them", coming soon to a mall kiosk near
    you.
    
    -b

Re .10: 
    
    "The whole concept of "moods" is good for hours of entertaining debate,
    if one is so inclined."

I thought that was the whole idea behind notes - debate, entertaining or
otherwise ? 

    "Things that can affect one's mood [and which are probably under study
    by some government-funded agency Even As We Speak]: colors, scents,
    temperatures, sunlight, humidity, tension, blood sugar, caffeine (and
    all sorts of other "chemicals are our friends" substances),..."

This topic was about the indirect effect of female menstruation on Men but 
please feel free to start another topic on any of those subjects if you wish.
    
    "Watch for my new book, "People Who Snap at People, and the People Who
    Have to Work/Live/Love with Them", coming soon to a mall kiosk near
    you."
    
Ah, as you're all ready so knowledgeable and experienced about the topic why
not share a few of the highlights here with us. 

- Paul.
 

    Re .11:
    
>Re .10: 
>    
>    "The whole concept of "moods" is good for hours of entertaining debate,
>    if one is so inclined."
>
>I thought that was the whole idea behind notes - debate, entertaining or
>otherwise ? 
    
    Why, yes. Was there something in the statement you quoted to make you think
    I felt otherwise?

>    "Things that can affect one's mood [and which are probably under study
>    by some government-funded agency Even As We Speak]: colors, scents,
>    temperatures, sunlight, humidity, tension, blood sugar, caffeine (and
>    all sorts of other "chemicals are our friends" substances),..."
>
>This topic was about the indirect effect of female menstruation on Men but 
>please feel free to start another topic on any of those subjects if you wish.
    
    Oh, I _always_ feel free to start new topics, thanks. But in this case
    I was attempting to point out (though you seem to have missed the
    tongue in cheek) that it can be very difficult to ascertain the cause
    of a bad mood; even if one knows that it _is_ "that time of the month,"
    it doesn't guarantee that one's significant other is pissed off because
    of raging hormones rather than, say, because she spent the afternoon
    being made the scapegoat for a project slip and is too furious to
    speak. Therefore the distinction between the effect on a spouse or
    partner of "the monthlies" and that of any other type of bad mood seems
    kind of moot to me. Not to curtail anybody's discussions, of course;
    heavens, no!
    
>    "Watch for my new book, "People Who Snap at People, and the People Who
>    Have to Work/Live/Love with Them", coming soon to a mall kiosk near
>    you."
>    
>Ah, as you're all ready so knowledgeable and experienced about the topic why
>not share a few of the highlights here with us. 
>
>- Paul.
 
    Well, I just did, actually, and you suggested I start another topic.
    Ah, well... (I suppose not everybody finds the proliferation of
    self-help books as amusing and worthy of parody as I do. Or perhaps
    you're not blessed with 'em in the UK - if I interpret your personal
    name correctly.)
    
    Or perhaps you're just in a bad mood today? [I _won't_ use a smiley.
    Jonathan Swift didn't use smileys, and everybody knew he was kidding
    about eating the babies - didn't they?]
    
    -b

    He was kidding?

    >He was kidding?
    
    Of course he was -- everybody knows that Irish babies are too tough
    and gristly to make good eating.
    
    					andrew

    Re .13: <snicker...>
    
    -b

From .0:
    
>Does the phenomenen of Male pre-menstrual tension exist ? Fact or fiction ?
>
>Do you (Men) suffer as a consequence of PMT  ? 

From .11:
    
>This topic was about the indirect effect of female menstruation on Men but 
>please feel free to start another topic on any of those subjects if you wish.
    
    When I read the base note, I did not see that the second question
    referred to *female* PMS.  My immediate reaction was "Before you start
    berating us, make up your mind."  
    
    Of course, making up you mind won't help.  This is Notes; it is an
    anarchistic medium of communication, and you, despite your efforts to
    control the path of discussion, have no control.  So, relax and enjoy
    the ebb and flow of the conversation.
    
    I have heard that men may have emotional cycles, similar to women.  I
    have heard that these cycles generally are more long-term than women's
    cycles (90 days versus 28-30).  I have never seen or read any definite
    research that provided real evidence that these emotional cycles exist.
    
    					andrew

Re.-a couple.

Yeah, you're right - It's a bad day. In fact it's a bad week. It used to
be fun coming to work (and working in Germany) - now I don't know which ways up.
You ever have that feeling  ?

My jobs been in question for 8 months - I've been driving a rationalisation 
project and rather than rationalise people I've been pushing hard in other 
directions - with some success - but that's meant not doing what management want.
I haven't won any friends in high places but I've been doing the right thing. I 
got back from vacation last week and was told the projects dead. Now what ? 
I'm at rock bottom.

On top of that the wife works for a magazine as a journalist which has just
been launched on the stands and the chief editor quit last week. With the CE
gone the driving force behind the mag goes away and who knows what will happen.

Both our jobs are in jeopardy and I guess the strains begining to show.

But back to the topic ?

- Paul.

    
    I'm getting another ear ache.
    
    sorry Paul
    
    
    bakes

<---- me too.

sorry 'bout the ache bakes

- Paul 

    Men suffer MORE from their ladies' PMS than the woman does!
    
    I mean, even when you KNOW what it is ... even when you look at the
    calendar and you say "yup, it's been 27 days since she flipped her top
    last ..." you can't tell her  or she'll go ballistic!
    
    Best thing you can do is slip her a Mydol mickey finn.  And QUICK!
    
    Ever see the In Living Color when they guy comes home and his wife has
    PMS?  He calls 911 and they tell him to jump out the window!

    I think it's strange that so many women get bitchy from PMS.  All I
    ever do is get over sensitive.  If somebody looks at me the wrong way I
    feel like crying, and I start thinking that the world is full of mean,
    rotten people who hate me for no reason.  But, I don't act bitchy, I
    just feel sad and cry easily.  So, I don't think any of the men I've
    ever been involved with suffered from it.  Although, I suppose some men
    may find over sensitive women annoying!!
    
    Lorna
    

> I think it's strange that so many women get bitchy from PMS.  All I
>    ever do is get over sensitive.  If somebody looks at me the wrong way I
>    feel like crying



Lorna, I'm surprised that you think it's strange.

My experience is that there's such a fine line between being "bitchy" and
being sensitive.  If I'm emotionally stressed, I can react either by feeling
like crying or feeling like lashing out at someone.  Sometimes I even feel
like doing both.

/Eric

    > Men suffer MORE from their ladies' PMS than the woman does!
    
        Wow, that seems like an incredibly presumptious remark!  
        (Unless, of course, you've been on both sides of the equation).
    
        I've never had a problem with it that I know of, but I have
    	friends who claim to have PMS problems, and I *know* they suffer
    	more than I do from being in their company.  I can leave the room,
        escape from it, and they *cannot*.  I'm only a temporary target,
        but they have to pick up the pieces afterwards.  Big difference.
    
        Reading these notes, I wonder what vacuum I've been living in.  I
    	mean, I went to a women's college, even, spent 4 years living in a
    	mostly-women environment, and I've seen very little of the sort of
    	PMS symptoms that men often describe in here.  I find myself
        wondering if this is exaggeration, or whether there's something
        about PMS that makes women single the men in their life out for 
    	special private torture.
    
        I also find it interesting that none of my SOs have ever admitted
    	to any personal experience with PMS in past girlfriends, but some
    	men of my acquaintance seem to think all their girlfriends have had
    	it something fierce.  (You can draw your own conclusions about
    	this).
    
    > Best thing you can do is slip her a Mydol mickey finn.  And QUICK!
    
    	BTW, Mike, to my knowledge, Midol is for cramps, not PMS.  Perhaps
    	I've just led a really sheltered life here, but I think it's more
        common for cramps to occur during one's period or right (like the
    	day or two) before, whereas PMS is the week before. Not to put you
    	in this category necessarily, but it amazes me how many men seem 
        to think that PMS occurs during women's periods.  
    
    	I wonder whether some of these "PMS" claims result not from
        anything physiological, but from men using a woman's menstrual
        cycle as ammunition in an argument, or as an excuse to discount
        her opinions.  Shoot, I'd go ballistic too!  Any time of the month!
    
    	    Sharon
    

    RE: .23 I sometimes wonder if PMS is like an accent. People with
    accents never notice the same accent in others. Perhaps women just
    don't notice PMS in other women unless it gets extreme? Just a theory
    to wonder about.

    			Alfred

    Your mileage may vary but... in my experience, Midol does help with
    "that snappish feeling," which is what I've noticed as my main PMS
    symptom. [It's sporadic, too; happens only every other time or so,
    leading me to believe that each ovary has its own little peculiarities.
    I have _no_ idea if there's a scientific basis for this.]
    
    The difficulty about it all is that the very nature of the problem
    ensures that it's going to be hard to cope with. Does it help to say,
    "Oh, it must be 'that time' again"? Not on your life; if one is already
    feeling touchy [whether that _is_ the cause or not], such a statement
    sounds patronizing in the extreme, and I've never been able to tell
    whether I hate it more when I'm in a bad mood due to hormones ("Well,
    so what if it _is_ 'that time,' get the hell out of my way!") or when
    it isn't ("What are you talking about? What on earth makes you think
    there's only one possible reason for me to be kicking the dog? Get the
    hell out of my way!").
    
    Sort of like trying to talk to a guy who's driving the car under trying
    circumstances and is getting more irritable by the minute. Telling him
    "It's OK, I know how testy you get when you're lost" isn't likely to
    evoke a positive reaction, whether he _is_ lost or not.
    
    So what _do_ you do? Options would be to offer assistance if desired
    (something general, like "Can I get you anything/do anything?" rather
    than "Can I get you some Midol/Shall I go ask that person for
    directions?"), or to go away quietly, or to behave as if nothing were
    wrong and allow the other person to cope as best they can.
    [Acknowledging that a person appears to be in a foul mood is fine;
    making assumptions about the reasons can be risky!]
    
    -b

    re:.23, Sharon
    
    Me?  Presumptuous!  Heavens no!   ;')

Re.23

It could be that some men use the symptoms to improve their position in an
argument but or denigrate women in someway. You could be right. I try hard 
not to do this but my wife (I married again 7 years after the first broke up)
does act extremely sensitive and anxious during these times.

As an example, if we leave the house she'll ask 'did you lock the door ?' which
is ok. By about the sixth or seventh time it's a little trying and she's only
like it at that special time. I'm just very careful not to loose my patience.
If I've had a bad day at work - which is just about every day lately - I have
little left to comfort her monthlies. 

- Paul.

oops,

<---- that should have read 'to comfort her during her monthlies'

I find that whatever the situation, the stressee is often not able to
discuss the situation in a detached and rational manner. Waiting until the
heat of the moment passes, then bringing it up in the spirit of 'what can
we do differently next time' is often more productive. Your mileage may
vary....

    re: .24, 
    
    Conversely, I've often wondered if PMS is like Santa Claus: a plausible
    explanation to those who haven't been there, but one less often
    entertained by those who have the facts.
    
    My mileage varies on accents, too: although I don't notice similar
    accents in English speakers as accents per se, I speak Russian with
    an accent, and I *definitely* notice other American accents in Russian.
    
    There are a lot of reasons for stress and tension which have nothing to
    do with PMS.  If you look at it as "one more stressor on the pile", I
    think that's probably about right.  (For some women, obviously, it's
    going to be more noticeable, either because it's a much larger
    stressor, or because they operate at a very high stress level
    otherwise, and it's enough to push them over the edge).  To speak in
    grossly generalities, I think that women are more likely to treat PMS 
    this way, whereas men are more likely to treat it like rabies.  If
    someone reacts to your stress by treating you like you're rabid, it
    is only going to make the situation worse, which is my theory for why
    some men seem to have PMS antennae that can pick up signals on Mars.
    :-)  ("Her!  She's got PMS, I can tell!  Over there by that crater!
    Get out of her way, she's going to bite someone's head off any minute 
    now!")
    
    And then there's the "it's monthly" argument.  If you get stressed when 
    your mortgage payment is due, which happens monthly, is it necessarily
    PMS?  (Or is it Pre-Mortgage Syndrome :-)
    
    I have actually witnessed interactions where the woman later said it
    was PMS, but in the actual interaction she seemed perfectly reasonable
    (if on a slightly quicker fuse than usual), and the man seemed touchy
    in the extreme, scared, and irrational.  (I would have thought *he*
    had the PMS!).  He, on the other hand, probably thought her PMS was
    terrible, whereas the truth might have been that he didn't know how to
    deal with her when she got stressed out.
    
    I think PNEAL (Paul?) had a point when he said that when he's using all
    his resources dealing with his stress, that it's harder to deal with
    his wife's.  I think a similar statement can be made about all of us.
    
    	Sharon
    

    re: .27, Paul
    
    You might try taking a B vitamin before you head home.  I've found them
    extremely helpful when I'm under a lot of stress.
    
    	Sharon
    

    re .22, well, in my experience, what *I* was saying is that PMS does
    *not* make me lash out.  I, also, would not say that PMS makes me feel
    "emotionally stressed."  What I have noticed is that PMS seems to make
    me feel hypersensitive.  For example, if I have PMS, and a co-worker
    were to make a negative crack about my outfit, I would feel really
    hurt, and might even cry a little on the way home about how rude people
    can be.  But, at another time of the month, I might just make some
    crack back at them like, "Yeah, you're no fashion plate yourself.  You
    should stop shopping at K-Mart" or something similar, and not give
    another thought to it ever.  Things just hurt me a lot more when I have
    PMS, but they don't make me feel like lashing out, they just make me
    feel like sitting down and crying and feeling sad about what a mean,
    cruel world I live in.  Things that I would normally just shrug off,
    will really hurt my feelings.  I would describe this as oversensitive,
    not emotionally stressed, and I don't really think of them as the same
    thing.  When I said I was surprised, I guess I'm surprised that I seem
    to react differently than most other women.  I guess I don't think
    oversensitivity and lashing out are as close to each other as you do.
    
    Lorna
    

    >>When I said I was surprised, I guess I'm surprised that I seem
    >>to react differently than most other women.  I guess I don't think
    >>oversensitivity and lashing out are as close to each other as you do.

    Agreed, Lorna.  I react the same way you do.  Pretty much cry at the
    drop of a hat.  And I don't equate that with being "bitchy".  Just
    emotional.

    Mike, you don't know what suffering is, kiddo.  *^)

    Diane

    

 Sharon-

 I'm having difficulty figuring out whether you don't believe that PMS really
exists or whether you think that men really don't have it so bad (not as bad
as the women who are actually having it.) Can you clarify that for me?

 It almost sounds as if you think that PMS doesn't really happen, but then 
you'll remark that women seem to be suffering more than men.

 While I don't wish to assert that men suffer _more_ than women with PMS,
I really don't think it matters because men do suffer the effects of PMS
at the hands of women who have it. Are we to claim that it doesn't matter that
men suffer because women are suffering more? I don't think that holds any water,
particularly in light of the fact that a single woman suffering from the
effects of PMS may cause suffering in a number of people in her personal sphere
of influence. So even IF it were true that she suffered more than anyone else,
it would be quite a stretch to assert she suffered more than the aggregate
amount of suffering she caused in those around her.

 My experience with PMS is that there is nothing you can do and whatever
you try to do will only exacerbate the situation. A classic application of 
Murphy's Law.

 FWIW- My wife will also exhibit the irritableness that characterizes her
symptoms of PMS when she is excessively hungry. Once I noticed that we were
able to minimize it by ensuring she never went too long without something
in her stomach. And at least two of her daughters share this trait.

 The Doctah

    No, I definitely think PMS exists.  However, I think men are often 
    casual in their diagnoses, and that it is not nearly as prevalent as 
    some men would have us believe.  I think that very often it is
    something else more easily corrected, like a tendency towards low blood
    sugar (the crabbies you mentioned when you go too long between meals; I
    get that too, and the symptoms are indeed very similar to PMS).
    
    While I would acknowledge that it's no piece of cake to be around
    someone with raging PMS, I still think it's worse on the sufferer
    themselves.  Not, of course, that it's a contest.
    
    	Sharon
    

Re.35

Sharon, I'm sure the wife would raise some objections if I asked her to take part
in a controlled experiment but in my opinion it's a lot more than a casual 
diagnosis.

Women would have arrived at the answer through intuition whereas Men I feel get
there through some kinda logic. If you've lived with somebody for any length of
time then you KNOW their ups and downs. When they get ratty. Why they get ratty 
and that if you want to start an argument just leave the toilet seat up. I
mean you KNOW what's going down.

PMS is a little like that. You can talk, rationalise, discuss, argue the whole
month long until you sense that build-up of tension. It's a little like a wind
blowing under the door. Check the calendar and Bobs yer Uncle. You know it'll 
pass - just tread lightly.

What really annoys me is when Women say 'just be glad you don't get it' or 'be a
Man - put up and shut up'. I do in both cases. 

- Paul.

Ooops,

that should have read;

	I am and I do.

Damn I'm a wrecked noter lately.

- Paul.

P.S. Looks like I'm on the way out. I should know my future by next week.

.30> Conversely, I've often wondered if PMS is like Santa Claus: a plausible
.30> explanation to those who haven't been there, but one less often
.30> entertained by those who have the facts.
        
    Must be some other 28-day cycle then.
    
    Maybe the full moon?

    My wife says she quite often feels like hitting me when she's suffering
    from PMT...she doesn't do it much anymore tho'.
    
    I told here PMT or no PMT...if she hits me i'll hit her back!
    
    She hasn't done it for quite some time.
    
    And on my earlier note....I just assumed that most women suffer from
    PMT at some time in their lives.....????

    > And on my earlier note....I just assumed that most women suffer from
    > PMT at some time in their lives.....????
    
    Well, strictly speaking, you realize, this is next to impossible to
    prove, since you could only get a definitive "no" answer from the 
    dead. :-)
    

    Even then, I'll bet, your answer won't be definitive, because there are
    probably some women who do suffer from PMS but for whom it doesn't rise
    above the consciousness quotient sufficiently to be recognized.  Those
    women might likely say no.

    I often get PMS and I do get "snappish" for a day or so.  I get pretty
    irritable but I mostly keep it under control, particularly if I am
    aware that PMS is the cause.  
    
    Once every few months, I do lash out at someone verbally or in writing,
    but I must say it sure feels good!  I'm usually this meek,
    mild-mannered type, and I don't lash unless the target had it coming! 
    I lash out about 95% less often than most men I know.  :-)
    
    Actually, men's harping on PMS kinda peeves me.  While there are nasty
    exceptions, including my luckily-former-sister-in-law, who use PMS as
    an excuse to be awful, most women I know keep a grip on themselves no
    matter how lousy they feel.
    
    I think guys ought to give us credit for going on with our lives
    despite PMS and painful, uncomfortable periods.  Last time I
    menstruated, I had severe cramping, no appetite, and felt generally
    rotten.  I did my normal work and parenting routines, and nobody was
    the wiser.  
    
    I'd like to imagine men coping half as well as women do. If men had
    menstrual cycles, there'd be dozens of medical studies on easing their
    difficulties and companies would provide special sick days for this
    purpose.  ;-)
    
    What really burns me is when I am mad, generally with good reason mind
    you, and a man has  pooh-poohed it as PMS.  If he put a little energy
    into understanding why I'm angry, there might have been some real
    progress.  Instead, the issue never gets resolved, I feel insulted, and
    the relationship heads for demise.
    
    If you value your relationships with the women in your lives, don't
    minimize the discomforts of menstruation and the coping these women
    exhibit.  Don't sneer "PMS" when they are angry; Rather, try to
    understand why they are angry and work to resolve issues.  
    
    Anyway, just think.  No menstruation, no babies.  Glad you've got your
    kids?  If their Moms didn't have menstrual cycles, you wouldn't be a
    Little League coach today!
    
    Laura
    14-days-into-my-cycle-today

 Your note is filled with favorable generalizations about women and
unfavorable generalizations about men, Laura.

 You begrudgingly admit that you become "snappish" on occasion as a result
of PMS, but when you really let someone have it "they had it coming."
That's a rather self-serving attitude.

 And men don't comment about PMS, they HARP on it. But no matter, because
you are less nasty that 95% of the men you know.

 I fully expected the old "men couldn't do half as well as women," and I
wasn't disappointed.

 However, your note did in fact bring up some good points. (He says this
after picking on much of what she just said. :-)

 I agree that men should give women credit for dealing with their cycle
and the physical and mental discomforts it involves. I'm sure as hell
glad that stuff doesn't happen to me, and I can generally deal with the
few days per month when emotional stress is heightened as a result of PMS.

 I also think that some men tend to use PMS as the default reason for
women being angry/bitchy to relieve themelves of the burden of having to
think about what's really bothering them. Not smart.

 Sometimes, however, it really is PMS at the root of the anger- making
a miniscule issue out to be mountainous. And I'm sorry, but those of us
not currently in the throes of a PMS attack cannot possibly fix all of these
things to your satisfaction when you are PMSing. It's not even sensible to
try.

 

    What I didn't make clear in .42 is that times when I've been angry
    about an issue in relationship with a man, and expressed this, I've
    nearly always NOT been in PMS.  
    
    I only have PMS for a couple of days out of 28, and not even every
    month.  And when I have on rare occasions lashed out about something
    during PMS, it has just as likely been a newspaper editorial, an
    inconsiderate store clerk, and the jerk in the car ahead of me.  When's
    the last time YOU lashed out about such incidents?   We're all human,
    is all I'm saying.  You don't feel good, you get irritable.  I've more
    often lashed out because I had low blood sugar, was hot, tired, worried
    about my job.  Don't you do the same?
    
    More than one man has said, "You just have PMS.  Get off my back," when
    I didn't have PMS and did have a bone to pick with him.  This is a good
    way to find yourself back at the singles dances.
    
    Laura

    I'm convinced that if every man in the world had cramps as bad as I do
    that there would be a special column on timecards, to check off, which
    would be considered by everyone to be an acceptable reason for not
    coming to work, and still getting paid.    :-)
    
    "Where's Jim today?  We need to get this meeting started?" - a VP 
    
    "Oh, he's home in bed curled up with a heating pad.  He has
    really bad cramps this month."  - another VP
    
    "Oh, damn shame!  Well, that's understandable.  We can fill him in
    later.  Let's get this meeting off the ground."  - first VP
    
    
    Lorna
     

    From a comic I heard:
    
    "If men had PMS, the budget allocation for its cure would
    be bigger than the budget for NASA's moon landing program."

    But in 1969 three times the money spent to put a man on the moon was
    spent on cosmetics for women. Gee. I guess I dont get it.:)

  >>  But in 1969 three times the money spent to put a man on the moon was
  >>  spent on cosmetics for women. Gee. I guess I dont get it.:)

	If you saw me at about 7 AM, you'd get it.  *^)

    I think I'm missing the point of that last reply, George.  Are you
    trying to say that if women stopped wearing makeup, they'd be allowed
    to go to the moon?  :-)
    
    These comparisons are so funny.  Do you perchance have the figures 
    on how much men spent on shaving supplies in 1969, too?  Or how much
    out of the total spent on beer and chips was spent on beer and chips 
    for men?
    
    	Sharon
    

    There is no real point. No more points than if men had PMS and how the
    world would react to it. :)

    re .47, simple explanation, George.  Society has successfully
    brainwashed most women into believing that it is more important to look
    good, than it is to feel good.
    
    Lorna
    

    George: It was a joke.  It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.
    It was supposed to be funny.  
    
    Your mileage may vary.
    
    					andrew

    I was joking too. Who is serious in the notes files?:_)

    In reguards to beer and chips spent on the national average in 69...
    Humm.. That is tuff. 
    
    Insofar as shaving cream, I think it dipped big time cause we all grew
    beards and long hair.:)

.52> It was supposed to be funny.  
    
    It was supposed to be funny to some women.
    
    Kinda like the comic strip Sylvia.

Re: .55

I find "Sylvia" hilarious....

		Steve

 :-)

    
    I think the remark about PMS vs. NASA has to do with government
    spending and research allocations which do NOT result in direct profit
    for the companies involved. Since, to date, space travel has not shown
    ANY level of profitability, but more a national pride, I consider it a
    category unto itself. Much more comparable would be PMS and prostate
    cancer. And I sense that prostate cancer isn't THAT well funded because
    its embarrassing. But it MIGHT be better funded than PMS research. I
    don't know.
    
    There IS PMS research going on, and one of the possible solutions is
    short-term medication such as anti-depressants. I fight a losing battle
    with PMS, to such an extent that I will not go into details. While I'm
    not sure that most people at work see it clearly, my family does.
    Whatever I hear about in the way of medical solutions I'll report on
    shortly... probably in Womannotes first.

    I've had some further thoughts on this topic, along the lines of "Hey
    guys, if you had any idea how often women quietly endure discomfort from
    PMS and menstruation, you'd be amazed."
    
    You can add in:
    
    o  Pregnancy.  If you want to know how uncomfortable or even miserable
    it can be, take a stroll through PARENTING.  How many of your
    co-workers are quietly slipping into the ladies' room to barf, and you
    never even knew?  I remember standing and teaching 7 hours a day when
    my hip hurt so bad I couldn't rotate on my right leg, or bend over. 
    When I was in the first trimester, and hardly showing, my soon-to-be-
    ex said, "You are milking this pregnancy for all it's worth," when I
    wanted to rest for 20 minutes after work before starting dinner.
    
    o Post-partum.  It took me months to feel normal again.  Many women
    cope with post-partum depression.  It is bad.  Very bad.  Trust me.
    
    o  Menopause.  How many of your relatives and co-workers are enduring
    hot flashes and other symptoms?  I bet you aren't even aware of it.
    
    Now I'm not whining about how bad it is to be a woman.  Overall, I like
    it just fine, thank you.  I am saying that your average woman has a lot
    of guts and fortitude, and that your average man often doesn't even
    know how much discomfort she is coping with.
    
    Laura

    
>    I think the remark about PMS vs. NASA has to do with government
>    spending and research allocations which do NOT result in direct profit
>    for the companies involved. Since, to date, space travel has not shown
>    ANY level of profitability, but more a national pride, I consider it a
>    category unto itself. 

	Perhaps space travel hasn't been directly profitable, but what about
the indirect profits and contribution of our space efforts?  The
miniaturiazation of computers?  Use of satellites to accurately predict paths 
of hurricanes, tornadoes and the like and the resultant saving of lives and
property?  Various materials originally used for space-flight that are now 
used in medicine and industry?  How can you say that it has not been 
profitable, both in value added to our lives and in money?    

George

Lorna,

Can you clarify post-partum for me. I've heard of post-natal but post-partum !!
That's a new one.

Thanks

 PNEAL-

 That was Laura, and post-partum is after birth. No doubt the same as post-natal.
Same difference between lift and elevator, I'd imagine.

    >I think the remark about PMS vs. NASA has to do with government
    >spending and research allocations which do NOT result in direct profit
    >for the companies involved. Since, to date, space travel has not shown
    >ANY level of profitability, but more a national pride, I consider it a
    >category unto itself. Much more comparable would be PMS and prostate
    
    Well.... Guess yha don't read much. ;) For there have been more than
    computers, medicin, and lots of other business related things.
    Including..... womens cosmetics.:)
    
    Maybe its what your not reading. :) 
    

.59> it can be, take a stroll through PARENTING.  How many of your
.59> co-workers are quietly slipping into the ladies' room to barf, and you
    
    I've been known to barf after a good night on the town.
    
    It's nothing special.  The hardest part is getting rid of the monster
    breath that follows.
    
    Oh yeah, and flossing out all the decaying food residue.

re:     <<< Note 79.65 by HDLITE::ZARLENGA "Michael Zarlenga, MRO AXP BPDA" >>>
>                   -< guys can cope with an occasional hurl >-

>.59> it can be, take a stroll through PARENTING.  How many of your
>.59> co-workers are quietly slipping into the ladies' room to barf, and you
    
>    I've been known to barf after a good night on the town.
    
>    It's nothing special.  The hardest part is getting rid of the monster
>    breath that follows.
    
>    Oh yeah, and flossing out all the decaying food residue.

Thanks, Mike, that was so refreshing. I usually read notes during lunch...



	RraAaLlPH!