Conference quark::mennotes

    
    Hi Chris,
    
      I've never met anything quite as frightening as that, not being a
    great one for interactive dreams personally, however I do have a mate
    who claims that he can get into a state in his dreams where he can
    control what occurs. He describes it like being a film director with an
    infinite budget. I think the state is called lucid dreaming.
    
      Sounds like your budget has expired ;-)
    
    	Mark.

    Don't know what it means, but I once (only once, thank goodness)
    had a similar experience.  In a half-waking state, unable to
    move or speak, and unable to defend myself against the presence,
    I sensed it to be evil.  Words aren't the medium for this, darn it. 
    It sounds melodramatic to say that I (somehow) knew its intent was to
    torture, then destroy utterly.  It wasn't so much that I was afraid it 
    might, as that I knew it would, and was helpless, incapable of defending
    myself or of escaping.
    
    Feeling despair rise like cold water, giving myself up for lost...even
    as I write this, the memory darkens the day.  Anyway, like a tiny light
    going on in the gathering darkness, I turned to prayer.  I could not
    move or speak, but in my mind prayed ernestly to Heavenly Father,
    in the name of his only begotten son, that he would save my spirit - at
    that point I'd given up on surviving the experience physically and had
    begun to dread spiritual destruction.
    
    Prayer opened the way, like a light growing stronger, pushing back
    and finally banishing the darkness.  At last I was able to move again.
    
    aq 

    I have read some articles on this dream state and it is not proper
    dreaming, there is a medical term for this state and its not too rare.
    Unfortunatly, I cannot remember what it is!

    
    
    Supposedly dreams are our windows to our unconcious thought.
    Have you recently been experiencing some negative happenings?
    Before you go to sleep do you think about this dream? Have
    you tried thinking about something incredibly positive and
    happy before you go to sleep?  I find that right before I
    fall asleep, if I think good thoughts then I dream good dreams.
    Yet the reverse is true as well.  

    >> Have you recently been experiencing some negative happenings?
    This dream normally occurs when life is stressful.
    They first started whilst I was at University in the run up to exams
    - but have since carried on into any stressful situation.


    >> Before you go to sleep do you think about this dream? Have
    >> you tried thinking about something incredibly positive and
    >> happy before you go to sleep?
    I find that if I make an effort to clear my mind of thoughts
    before I go to sleep then all I can think about are these bad dreams.
    So now I don't try anymore - I just hope....


    >> I find that right before I fall asleep, if I think good thoughts
    >> then I dream good dreams.
    I'll give it another go.  There's nothing particulary stressful going
    on at the moment so who knows - if I crack it now then I might be rid
    of this problem for ever.


    C.

I used to get something quite similar.  I'll describe mine.


It happened only when I took afternoon naps, never during nightime sleeping.

I'd drift off in a nap, and then I'd believe I had woken up, and I wanted to sit
up.  But I couldn't move a muscle, just like you !  I sometimes got scared and
tried to scream, but no noise would come out.

This experience became so recurring that it finally got to the point that I
wouldn't try to scream, nor would I try to sit up.  Instead, I just lie there
and relax and breath, and it always works.  Quickly the force vanishes and I
really wake up.


I suspect it's related to some sort of abuse from my past...


Thanks for sharing yours.

/Eric

    
    Somewhere from the dim recesses of my brain, the term "hypnogogic"
    crawled forth into the light of day.  I think this is the
    term for this type of dream, which is relatively common -- especially
    the sensations of paralysis.
    
    Ron

    I've had dreams where I was scared and couldn't force myself to scream
    or move.  I've also had dreams where I was being squished and was
    trying to force myself to push whatever it was away so I wouldn't be. 
    Once when I was dreaming that something was squishing/crushing me, I
    woke-up and my biggest cat, Frodo, was sleeping right on top of my
    chest.
    
    Lorna
    

	.0
	
	HYDRA::DEJAVU has many Notes on Dreams ...  kp7 to add.
	
 Topic    Repl  Title
------------------------------------------------
    97      41  Dreams seem real?
   107      35  Incubus Dreams
   230      11  reoccurring space ship dreams
   241       9  Coding Dreams/Nightmares
   291       9  Tarot reading,dreams,DEJAVU:connection?
   353      38  dreams,dreams.dreams
   362      41  End-of-the-World dreams?
   464       3  How I remember dreams
   618       6  More on dreams
   725       1  DREAMS
   865       0  BOOK ON DREAMS..DEJAVU
   882      13  These Dreams - I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND!
   928       2  Earthquake related dreams
   929       5  My Dreams
   944      10  More on recurring dreams...
   977      18  UNprophetic Dreams
  1030      18  DREAMS ABOUT GLASS IN YOUR MOUTH
  1057       1  Dreams and Places
  1061      10  "WEIRD DREAMS"
  1275       3  bear dreams
  1302       6  death dreams..help?
  1313       5  My Dreams - I think I figured it out
  1367      25  Help!! Strange dreams
  1409      34  flying dreams
  1479       4  MEANING OF DREAMS
  1482       6  Advice on reoccurring dreams
  1492      11  Flying in dreams
  1634      18  Need some help with dreams
  1638      29  Dreams and voices.
  1804      14  Dreams and Snakes

>    I'm not sure that this is the correct conference to discuss this

You might try Psychology.

>    Does anyone have any ideas as to why or what these dreams mean - or
>    even had similar experiences?

The theory I prefer is that dreams like this are the unconscious part of 
my self trying to send a message to the conscious part.  It comes in times
of stress or exhaustion, because our defences are weaker then.  The dream 
itself may not have any message, but is just a kind of knock on the door.  
When I pay attention and ask for the message, the dream becomes clearer.

I've had a few similar experiences, and I know a few others have as well.  
My nightmares have been of walking stealthily through dark rooms, and then
hearing a voice say something like "OK, now we've got him."  Then I can't
move or speak, and I wake up.

> and it talks

You might want to ask yourself what it has said.  Use your own judgement
about putting it into a reply in this conference.

>    I have also tried talking to it,
>    telling it that it can't hurt me and that I'm going to wake up - but the 
>    harder I try the further it pushes me into the dream.

Just ignoring it sounds like a good option, but here is another.

Tell it that you are paying attention and will listen with respect.  In 
return, you expect to be treated with respect, not deceived or pointlessly
frightened.  Then listen carefully to what it says.  If you can, talk to it 
to be sure you understand each other.

When you wake up, write down what you can remember.  Later, think over what 
it has said.  If you feel you have been deceived or pointlessly frightened,
then in future just ignore it.  If you feel you have gotten a valid message,
then thank it and use the message in your waking life.

If your experience is like mine and others I know of, you will find that the
message is actually a lot less frightening than the knock on the door.

What was my message from my nightmare above?  

"You are really scared of approaching other people and being trapped by them.
You approach in the darkness, sneaking in by the back door.  But this is 
not safe anyway.  Now you can walk up to the front door by daylight."

I used to be quite afraid of death when I went to sleep at night.

Now I meditate 20 - 30 minutes before bed each night.  It has really helped me
sleep quite well.  In fact, even if I get in late, I still meditate.  It's not
like it cuts 30 minutes from my sleep time.  I think it causes me to need less
sleep.

I learned at Cambridge Insight Meditation Center.  You can pop in there any
Tuesday night from 6 - 7 unannounced.  I think it costs $5.

Basically, it's sitting quietly on a cushion, back straight (so you don't fall
asleep) and pay attention to your gentle normal breath going in and out.  If you
realize your mind has wandered (to tomorrow, or so-and-so, or sex, or worry, or
anger etc. etc.) just gently reconnect with the breath.  Regard the distractions
as part of the meditation, and just get back to the breath.

/Eric

    When mammals sleep their muscles are 'locked out' so that their bodies
    won't go through the motions of their dreams.  i.e. if you dream your
    walking your brain would send signals to your muscles to make you walk
    if it were not for this lock out 'feature'.  We have all seen people
    and animals twitch and move limbs in their sleep.  The lock out feature
    is not perfect and sometimes signals get by.  I have seen amimals
    lying on their side 'walk' in their sleep which illustrates the im
    perfect nature of the lock out.
    
    I suspect that when your semi conscious and trying to wake up.  (I have
    experienced this myself) that the lock out is still in effect thus your
    inability to move muscles to help wake yourself up.  Your mind can 
    translate this temporary natural inability to move into a running dream
    in which running is ineffective as your trying to escape danger.  I 
    can actually feel control over my muscles returning as I wake up after
    a dream like that.
    
    I have experienced lucid dreams too... although not as often as I would
    like.  They are alot of fun, and I have them maybe once every couple
    of years.  Flying an airplane is one I remember.  Its alot of fun
    'piloting' your own plane like that.  One can help enhance the
    frequency of lucid dreams by doing certain mental exercises.  But I
    can't remember the details of how.  I read it somewhere.
    
    Jeff

    What exactly do you mean by "lucid" dreams?  
    
    Lorna
    

    Lucid dreams are dreams in which your have an element of conscious
    control while still experiencing the dream.
    
    i.e. dreaming your flying a plane complete with all the dream features
    of flying the plane BUT with some conscious choice of how and where you
    fly vs. 'watching' the dream as in a movie.
    
    Jeff

    re .14, according to your description I think quite a few of my dreams
    would be considered lucid dreams.  I usually tend to "be there" in my
    dreams, rather than viewing them as if in a movie.  I don't see myself
    doing things - instead I see the rest of the dream as I would see it
    from my eyes if it were real life.
    
    I have a lot of very funny dreams, as my daughter and close friends
    know, because I insist on telling them.  :-)
    
    I, also, have recuring dreams, sometimes quite humorous.  I have
    recuring dreams about meeting Van Morrison, who is my favorite singer,
    and supposed to have a very grumpy, rotten personality in real life. 
    But, in my dreams I've engaged in some very humorous conversation with
    him.  
    
    I have some action adventure dreams, too.  I love my dreams.  They're
    colorful and funny.  Some of them are really bizarre.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Lorna, have you ever had a dream where you knew IN THE DREAM that it 
    was a dream and you told yourself to wake up?  I have (though not very
    recently.)
    
    (I believe this is another form of lucid dreaming.)
    
    One of my favorite things (about when my son was very little) was when
    I told him about dreams and asked him to start telling me about his.
    (I've described this in notes before.)
    
    He was only around 2 1/2 (or so) so it took awhile to explain it to
    him.  I kept reminding him about how he would think he was someplace
    else then wake up in bed?  After awhile, he understood and started
    telling me (and his preschool teachers!) about his dreams as soon as
    he woke up!
    
    Some of his little dreams were so cute - but they ALL had to do
    with things appropriate for a 2 year old (such as balloons, peanut
    butter sandwiches, etc.)  It was great!

    I agree, knowing your dreaming is a form of lucid dream.  I think the
    distinction between lucid or not lies in the ability to CONTROL the
    action rather than be an 'unwilling' participant (viewer) of the
    action.
    
    Lorna, your watching the dream as in a movie to me is not a lucid dream
    but a normal dream.  One has no control over the activity in a movie,
    one simply watches it.  See the distinction?
    
    Jeff

    In other words, in a regular dream, you don't know that you're dreaming, and
    you THINK you have control over what's happening, but you only have control
    over what YOU do; you have no control over your surroundings.

    In lucid dreaming, you know for sure that you're dreaming, and you have
    complete control over every aspect of your environment. If you want a
    big green monster to turn into a big basket of posies, you can do it.

    - Jim

    re .18, Jeff, I didn't say that I watched the dream as in a movie.  I
    said just the opposite.  I said that in my dreams I am usually "in"
    them, like in real life - I don't see myself in the dream doing things
    - I see the dream from my own eyes - like real life - not like a movie. 
    I have occasionally had dreams where I saw myself, as in a movie, but
    it's usually not that way.
    
    I don't know if I would use the term "have control" because I've never
    thought of it that way.  There are times in my dreams when I'm trying
    to decide on a course of action.  For example, I might dream that a man
    asks me on a date, and that I'm trying to decide whether I should go
    or not, something like that.  Or I might dream that I miss a bus, and
    now I'm trying to figure out how to get to the place I wanted to go.
    
    Once recently I dreamed that I told someone that I was 25 yrs. old, and
    then - in the dream - I started to realize that didn't make sense
    because I remembered what year I was born and what year it was supposed
    to be, and I was horrified to realize that meant that I must be over
    40, but, at the same time, I didn't see how that could be possible.
    Then I thought that I must be mistaken about what year it was, that it
    couldn't be the 1990's, it must really be the 1970's, but then I
    realized I could remember events from the '80's such as Reagan being
    President, and I knew it had to be in the '90's.  Then I thought that I
    must not have been born as long ago as I thought.  I don't know if my
    trying to figure something like that out in my dream shows any control,
    or not.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .19, oh, okay, from your description, I get it.  No, I don't think I
    have lucid dreams, in that case.  Although, I once did dream I was
    making love with Bruce Springsteen, and that gets about as close to
    wish fulfillment as I could without it actually happening, so maybe
    that was a lucid dream!!!  :-)   
    
    No, it wasn't because I didn't know I was dreaming.  I just remembered
    I woke up on the living room couch, and was horribly dissapointed to
    discover I'd been dreaming.  It was so real.
    
    In fact, my dreams are usually so real, I don't realize I was dreaming
    until I wake up.
    
    Lorna
    

    I don't think you quite understand what I am driving at regarding lucid
    dreams.  In a regular dream your in the dream with no direct control
    over the events in the dream.  In that sense your strictly an OBSERVER
    of the events through your own eyes.  I didn't mean your watching a 
    'movie' screen watching yourself from an external vantage point.
    
    In a lucid dream you sort of know your dreaming and YOU CAN DECIDE
    TO SOME EXTENT what happens in the dream rather than just EXPERIENCING
    what happens with no control. You don't have total control in a lucid
    dream... just partial.  Your mind creates the scenerio and you can
    decide to some extent what to do in that scenerio.
    
    I suppose that sexual dreams can be lucid too... hmmmmm, this has
    possibilities without the risks!
    
    Smile
    
    I am starting to read about virtual reality experiences.  I guess they
    are sort of like fully conscious lucid dreams?   
    
    Maybe that Bruce Springsteen experience is not too far off Lorna!?
    
    Jeff

    I've had a very similar dream many times... some menacing presence
    comes in the room.  I am awake, but paralyzed, and I cannot scream.
    
    I feel drugged and try to get up, but it is absolutely impossible.
    Often I wake up, my heart pounding.
    
    I talked to a psychotherapist about the dream once.  His first theory
    was that, as a child, I might have been frightened by a stranger
    entering my room.  He questioned me about possible sexual abuse, but I
    have no memory of abuse whatsoever.  His next step was hypnosis to get
    more information about the dream, but I dropped the issue.
    
    Normand

    My wife had one of those dreams once.  Screamed right in my ear.
    Now that will bring you straight up in bed in a hurry. :^)
	fred();

    It sounds like these sort of dreams are more common than I or the
    basenoter thought!
    
    Ever since childhood I've had these type of dreams - I'll be dreaming
    that I'm awake but in bed, and an intruder with a knife comes into
    my room.  I'll realize when the intruder appears that this is really
    a dream, but I am paralyzed and cannot make a sound.  Then I will 
    dream that I woke up and turned the light on.  Everything will seem
    normal, and then the intruder shows up again!  It's a vicious cycle!
    
    I usually experienced this type of dream if I had TOO much sleep -
    if I had taken a long nap after work, woke up for an hour, and then
    simply went back to bed because it was time to do so.  (It would have
    been best to stay awake!)
    
    Also, during a time when I was in an extremely stressful situation,
    these dreams occurred nightly.  Once the intruder broke through my
    the wall of my apartment with a bulldozer!  Guess he thought the knife
    wasn't going to be enough!  ..I can kinda joke about it now, because
    I rarely have had these type of dreams for the past couple of years
    now...
    
    Dora

    I have read articles in some magazines that sound really frightening. I
    don't know if they were true or not. (Supposedly they were...)
    
    One woman was dreaming she was attacking someone. She woke to some
    noise and realised she was in the process of stranguling her husband.
    Whether or not this is possible to do, it is definatly quite shocking
    to think that it may have happened.
    
    I often get recurring dreams, some I have had for about 10 years!
    
    

    In reply to the first note in the subject.
    
    I too often have a re ocurring dream where I simply cannot wake up. No
    matter how hard I try and usually I am desperatly trying to reach out
    and switch the bedside light on, but my arms will not respond.
    
    Someone told me that one way to wake up, was to concentrate on moving,
    say your little finger, then gradually try and increase the movement to
    your arm and the rest of your body, It may sound daft, but once you
    realise you are in such a dream, you then have a solution to waking up.
    
    I made a concious effort to remember this theory and to my utter
    surprise, the next time the dream was in progress I put the plan into
    operation and it worked!
    There are many books on the U.K. market on interpretting meanings of
    dreams I.E. Dreamers dictionary etc.. They are very useful when read
    and used correctly. Remember, to ignore any conections with incidents
    which have happened during the day or things playing on your mind when
    trying to understand the meaning of your dream - As some of the time it is
    purely your mind "Free wheeling".
    
    I beleive myself to be slightly Phsycic (sorry about spelling) and have
    trained myself to remember certains dreams and document them.
    Think of it what you will but I along with many other people I suspect,
    have "seen" events which were yet to happen. For example El Al Boeing
    747 cargo plane crash in Amsterdam. I documented it electronically for
    date proof and even put down the name of the city which turned out to be 
    correct, such occurrences are by no means unusual but not ofter taken 
    seriously.
    You just accept it after a while, obviously alot depends on your own
    ability to remember vital info included in the dream - above all write
    down EVERYTHING as soon as possible. (keep a pen and paper by your
    bed).
    
    I have found over the years, that the more vivid and real the dream is,
    has a lot to do with the future timescale of the event. The more real, 
    and striking etc.. the nearer the event we are in real time.
    There is a lot more to this subject, and I haven't got time to explain,
    but do not be afraid of your dreams - try to understand what you dream and
    you will gain alot by experience and knowledge.
    
    Vic 
        

    I hate it when you do something repetitive all day long and then you dream
    about it all night...

    In highschool when I started my job at the grocery store, when I went to
    bed I ended up pushing carts all night in my sleep. I woke up several times
    and every time I feel back asleep, there I was at the market again.

    I had similar dreams the first day I played Tetris too.

    When you get up you're even more exhausted than you were when you went to
    bed.

    - Jim

    I have a good one in the same vaine as Jims. How about driving so many
    hours, so many miles, that when you go to bed at night you see the
    white lines flashing across the ol eye ball. Bet there are a number of
    folks out there who have had such an experience. 
    
    What is scary.... You get back behind that wheel and your so tired. You
    don't know if your sleeping or your awake. 
    
    That was the game when I was moon lighting in the limo game not long
    ago.
    
    Into the car on friday, out sometime around 7pm sunday. Rest, sleep,
    and be ready to stand on the carpet come monday to do your job.
    
    You do it because your SO is home with the newborn, and bonding for the
    child is very important. And her lost income has to come from some
    place besides that money tree that grows out in the back yard.
    
    
    
    

    I too have had the 'intruder dream' whereby I know there is an intruder
    downstairs and I am trying to wake up to deal with it but can't wake up
    and am paralized.  As I said in an earlier entry mammals have a
    mechanism which locks out your muscles so you won't physically act
    out your dreams with body movement... at the light stage of sleep when
    one is dreaming about an intruder but can't wake up or move the lock
    out mechanism is still in effect, thus the inability to move.
    
    I suppose sleep walking is an exception to the lock out rule, since
    obviously the person IS acting out the dream physically.
    
    Jeff

    
    
    Have been in this paralyzed dream state many a time.  You can't move,
    you can't yell.  I have become pretty good at waking myself up from
    these dreams.  Not a bunch of fun at all.
    
    
    
    Mike

My sister-in-law is into this type of stuff so I called and asked her what she
thought. Without knowing more about you and what's going on in your life she
said 'difficult to say' - could've predicted that huh ? - but here's some clues.

    "Once properly asleep I become aware of a presence surrounding me.  This
    presence appears to fill the room with blackness, and it talks."

It's either in the past or the present but you're faced with an experience in
your life which you aren't dealing with. The backness indicates that you 
probably aren't even aware that you have a problem - i.e. you haven't faced 
up to it (denial state), recognised/identified it, or seen it (your consciousness
that is) - consequently it has no name or face - it's just a blackness.
    
    "As the overriding emotion at this point is fear I try to wake up.."

Your sub-consciousness has recognised the danger and generated the typical
'run away'/'get away' response. 
    
    "..the more I try the more the presence refuses to let me - both verbally 
    and physically. So my next thought usually turns to the idea of screaming 
    so that one of my house mates will wake me up..."

This indicates that you probably look to others for answers, you're not too 
independant and you have difficulties solving your own problems. Although it 
could mean that one of your house mates is somehow involved and holds the 
key/solution.

    "...but I can't scream, so I try kicking the presence but I can't move a 
    muscle.  I have also tried talking to it, telling it that it can't hurt me 
    and that I'm going to wake up - but the harder I try the further it pushes 
    me into the dream."

Denied the first two possibilities (i.e. the answer to this problem doesn't
lie in fleeing or friends) you turn to talking to it - but you still don't
know what it is so the answer still isn't forthcoming - you are trapped.
    
    "At about this time I remember that if I "play dead" then the presence
    gets bored and goes away.."

So you play dead - you have no answer - you are defeated.

My sister-in-law said hypnotherapy might help because a good therapist can
get to your subconscious and find out what's bothering you. She also said that
the dream will change when you've recognised or faced up to your problem.

hope that helps.

- Paul.

    I've been lucid dreaming quite a bit these days.  When you hit the
    sheets dead tired, you fall asleep pretty quick, so you're still
    a bit conscious as it hits.
    
    One of the weirdest things is, when, in a dream, I reach for a light
    switch, and it's broken.  Then it hits me ... this is a dream!  So I
    do something incredible, like look at the clock, look away, then look
    back.  If the time's different, it's a dream.  It always seems to be a 
    random time.
    
    Once you realize it's a dream, you can have a blast!

    re .33 sounds like a lucid dream to me.

    Ummm ... didn't I say that?

  >>  Ummm ... didn't I say that?

	Yeah, it _looked_ like your typing.

Your comment about looking at the clock and looking back and seeing a different
time, reminds me of something that used to happen alot...



I used to see signs in my dreams.  When I woke up, I remembered I had seen a sign,
but that I had forgotten to read it.  So I quietly told myself that next time
I see a sign in my dream I'm going to read it.

Well, sure enough, days or perhaps weeks later, I saw more signs in dreams
and started looking at them.  But similar to your clock, and a bit disappointing
to me, every time I glanced back at the same sign in my dream, it said something
different.  Kind of like random words, and not very interesting ones at that.
Sorry, I can't remember them now.

So, I advanced even beyond that, to the point where I stopped paying attention
to the signs because I knew they'd say something different every time I glanced
at them.

/Eric

and .37 reminds me of trying to read something in my dreams.

Long ago, I dreamed about a book (not a real book) that I was really 
interested in.  Can't remember what it was about.  So I took the book 
and looked closely at it, but the page was just covered with squiggly lines.
Kind of like those books that illustrators put in a picture when the 
writing would be too small to read anyway.

For a year or so after that, whenever I saw a printing in a dream, I would
try hard to read it, but I never could.

Sometimes I would see the same effect with a complex object, like a 
painting.  At first glance it would look real, but when I looked close it
was just a kind of illustration of the real thing.

I guess my unconscious is willing to be a set designer, but unwilling to
be a novelist or fine artist.

    There's something that's been bugging me for a while now...

    Most people have heard of the notion that people who dream in color are
    somehow more intelligent than people who dream in black-and-white.

    I'll tell you right off, I don't dream in color. I'm not afraid to admit
    it. But I'll tell you what bugs me about the "fact" I stated above: I find
    it hard to believe that anyone REALLY dreams in color. Dreams are not quite
    like watching a movie. Dreams are made up of concepts and emotions and
    impressions, rather than concrete spatial relationships and minute details.
    Color seems like too frivolous a detail to appear in a dream.

    Now this doesn't mean that color doesn't come into play in dreams. I have
    had dreams where certain objects were colored. I'm sure everyone has.
    But in the dreams, those colors were there because they were an
    important part of the story. For example, I had a dream where I was
    driving and was hit by a red car. There was a reason for the car to be
    red: it was a sports car, and red is the stereotypical sports car color.
    The thing is, in my colored dreams, I'm not sure if the objects were
    REALLY colored. I just got the impression that they were colored. The car
    didn't LOOK red, it FELT red. Does that make sense? 

    So anyway, my theory is that somebody thought up this "theory" about
    dreaming in color, without basing it on any scientific research. Everybody
    has had a colorful dream at some point in their life, so in effect,
    everybody dreams in color. Everybody likes to think that they're a little
    more intelligent than everybody else. For these two reasons, nobody doubts
    the theory, and so it is propagated very easily.

    What do y'all think? Am I just being defensive? I don't dream in color and
    I'm no dummer then anybody else.

    - Jim

    Re .38: That's interesting - for years, I too found that "dream books"
    held only fuzzy, squiggly lines, but within the last, oh, 6 or 7 years,
    I've had dreams wherein I _could_ read things. [Not that I necessarily
    remembered much of it when I woke, but in the dream there was most
    definitely text there - and usually something I hadn't (that I could
    remember) read before.]
    
    -b

    I do dream in color (altho I can't say I remember any of my dreams of
    late), and it's *seeing* color, not just experiencing it.  :)
    
    My dreams tend to be somewhat like watching a movie, often with me
    watching someone else play someone who is supposed to be me.  It's not
    a brightly colored movie, but I do believe that they're generally in
    color.
    
    kim

    Some of my dreams have featured books (or other written material) with
    readable text, too (or at least I *believed* the text was readable.)

    In some of my dreams, I knew it was a dream but felt extremely fortunate
    that I'd be able to read text (since it didn't really exist except in
    my dream.)  I can remember thinking that if I could remember it, I'd
    be saved the trouble of composing the text while awake (since I'd already
    written it somehow while asleep.)  :>

    At some point, though, either I wake up or I don't recall what I've
    read (or I believe I'm reading, then venture off into some other dream)
    - I'm not sure what the hell happens to the text (or if I was mistaken
    about the text even being readable.)  Drat!

    When it comes to detailed dreams, though, my most thorough details
    always come in the form of noticing things about the PLACES of my
    dreams.  As a short story writer, my best skills were always involved
    in describing the world around the characters (including some small
    details.)  Most of my short stories involved taking bits and pieces
    of various (unrelated) places and incidents, then combining them into
    one story.

    My dreams are the same way.  I'll be in a house I lived in as a child
    with people I know *NOW* who are involved in something familiar to me
    from several years ago (for example.)  These are not lucid dreams -
    they just seem to work out this way quite often.  It's the way my mind
    creates stories on its own, I guess.  :>

    One dream I had was so vivid and frightening that I wrote it into a
    short story (as a dream that the main character had.)  I liked using
    it because most fictitious dreams (created for stories by authors who
    set out to write something that SOUNDS like a dream) sound pretty
    phony to me.  Using an actual dream as a dream in a story gave the
    story a lot of authenticity.  When I won the Creative Writing Award
    at my college, I figured that this *one story* gave me the best edge
    for the award (although my other stories seemed highly regarded as
    well.)

    re .39, *all* of my dreams are in color.  
    
    You know, maybe you don't dream in color, but why does that fact make
    you want to insist that those of us who do are lying?  You can't get
    inside anybody else's head and see our dreams.  Personally, I was
    amazed when I first heard, as a child, that some people dream in black
    and white.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .39
    
    Personally, I find it astonishing that anyone does *not* dream in color.
    Color is often one of the most important features in my dreams, and is
    often what I remember most vividly, even before remembering the "story".
    
    But I've often wondered, too, whether people who dream in black and
    white also "daydream" in black and white.  And how about imagining
    things.  If you pull up a mental image of your house, for instance, is
    that also in black and white? 
    
    -ellie

	I sometimes dream in color, sometimes black and white. In general
	color doesn't seem to add too much to the dream. Most of my dreams
	are more about what is happening than how things look.

			Alfred

    Re: .43

    Sheesh, I wasn't accusing anybody of lying! Color (or black-and-whiteness
    for that matter) is never an important aspect of my dreams. I've never had
    a dream that was noticeably black-and-white. On the other hand I have had a
    handful of dreams where color did play a role, even if it was small. If I
    were not thinking critically, I could assume, since I've never had a
    black-and-white dream, that all my dreams are in color, even though I
    can't tell.

    And I made the assumption that everybody else's brain works similarly to
    mine, so I figured people might think that all their dreams are in color,
    simply because they've never dreamt in black-and-white. Of course, it seems
    that my assumption was pretty darn faulty.

    So, does anybody know any good support groups for less evolved people who
    have drab dream lives? 8^)

    - Jim

    re .46, take an art class!  learn the color wheel!  learn to revel in
    color!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .46
    
    But, Jim, I'm really interested to know if you "think" of things in
    color.  I was wondering this just the other day, i.e. if someone dreams
    in black and white, does that person also "daydream" in black and
    white?  If I said to you "think about your yard" would you see it in
    color?  I was on the verge of putting this question in ASKENET, when I
    came across this string....
    
    Another idea I have about dreams, is that they are a complete retrofit.
    KNow how sometimes when you're falling asleep, and your muscles jerk,
    you dream you've stepped off a curb, or tripped or something like that?
    Well, it doesn't make sense to think that you were dreaming about just
    that sort of thing when your muscles twitched -- as if you knew ahead
    of time that it was going to happen.  So I think the memory of the
    dream gets manufactured to fit the circumstances.  And I find it
    interesting to wonder if *all* dreams could be like that -- memories
    manufactured afterwards.  And maybe, since color is important to me, I
    manufacture the color too.
    
    But, when I "think" of anything, it's always in color...  
    
    -ellie

>    So, does anybody know any good support groups for less evolved people who
>    have drab dream lives? 8^)

There are lots of books for people who are puzzled, fascinated or dissatisfied
by their dream life.  Look in any good bookstore.  Also places like the
(Northeast US parochialism alert) Omega Institute and Interface have workshops
on dreaming.  Also lots of Adult Ed programs have them.

I am amazed at the range of our "dream styles" and that almost everyone finds 
their own style to be natural and normal.

I never heard that dreaming in color is a sign of intelligence.  My own dreams
seem to be mostly in the washed out color of bad TV.  Occasionally there is
an object or scene which is in brilliant color.  Sometimes this color is 
central to the dream and sometimes it just happens.

On the relative importance of plot, sight, or feeling in dreams, I've seen
quite a range in my dreams.  Usually I remember the plot best, and can
recall a number of strong visual scenes along the way, a lot like the stills
from a movie, or the photographs of plays that theaters put in the lobby for
the audience to look at between acts.  Sometimes I can remember the look
of a whole sequence of action.  Sometimes I can remember a set of striking
"stills" with only a vague memory of the plot that strung them together. 
And a few times I have remembered only a single striking scene, with no 
idea of what came before or after.

Sometimes I am in these scenes, and seeing them out of my own eyes.  Sometimes
I am looking down or across at myself participating.  Sometimes both at once.

Since we are discussion dream strangeness, has anybody else noticed this?  Some
of my dreams have a clear dramatic structure, like a thriller or drama.  One had
the forms of a PBS travelog, complete with a voice-over narrative.

    RE: .48

    Do I think in black and white?

    First of all, for the purposes of thinking, black and white are colors just
    like red or blue. Also, I think the same way I dream. I could think in
    black and white if I wanted, but that would take conscious effort, just
    like thinking about purple apples or a red sky would.

    I can think about any color I want, but I won't actively think about any
    colors unless it's relevant to the thought. In my thoughts, like in dreams,
    color doesn't come into play unless it's important. When you tell me to
    bring up an image of my yard, there are colors there, but I probably
    wouldn't normally think about the individual colors in my backyard unless
    I knew that you wanted that.

    And it's possible to have perfectly good thoughts that have no
    colors at all, including black or white. Think about "sine wave" for
    example, or "happiness". Do you see colors?

    I don't think I'm too abnormal.

    - Jim

    P.S. Actually, when I think about it, I see puffy white clouds in a blue
    sky when I think about the image of happiness. But that's because I'm
    purposely trying to get a physical image.

    re .50
    
    No, I don't think you're abnormal.  Maybe I am.  Colors are there
    unbidden, for me.  If I think of my house, I guess what I "see" is
    what I would see if I were standing in front of it and looking at it,
    pale yellow clapboards, grey-purple shadows, green grass in front, 
    pink flowers many different shades of green and grey in the plants in
    front, etc.  But there's no conscious effort to "remember" the colors.  
    And I can't "make" the picture be black and white, even if I try....  
    
    -ellie
    

  >>  unbidden, for me.  If I think of my house, I guess what I "see" is
  >>  what I would see if I were standing in front of it and looking at it,

    Me too.  Thing is - my house _is_ black and white.

    Di
    

.39> What do y'all think? Am I just being defensive? I don't dream in color and
.39> I'm no dummer then anybody else.
            ^^^^^^

    Intentional humor or typo?

    re .52
    
    Aw, come on, Di;  what about those places where Randy's scrapped off
    the paint?  8^))
    
    -e

         I'm a little late with this reply but I hope I can help. I have
    had a similar dream all to recently, but I think I have figured mine
    out.
         Mine dream is that I'm lying in bed and I am in between that state
    of consiousness and dream, which I think is called the R.E.M state, (
    Rapid Eye Movement), in which all people dream.
         As I am lying there darkness fills the room and a cold blanket
    type feeling comes over me. The next thing I know is that someone is
    holding me down. My spector also talks to me saying " WHat are you
    going to do now!!!" very loud. I can turn my head and see my girlfriend
    right next to me I try to scream and wake her but nothing comes out.
         Try as I might physically to push,turn or move in any way I can't.
    I start to think this is only a dream I can wake up , I can wake up but 
    still I am held with this thing taughting me.
         Finally with everything I have I push and scream and just go nuts.
    I find myself sitting up in bed screaming and falling of the bed. This
    usually wakes my girlfriend up and causes her a little stress.
         This what I have figured out. A lot has been happening in my life
    as of late. A new job here at Dec, my girlfriend is going to have my
    baby, and we only moved in with each other a few months ago. All my
    life up till now it has been only me. I went where I wanted, did what
    ever I wanted at any time I wanted. Now responsability as taken over my
    life, and my in my subconsions I have not excepted it.
         I don't know if any of this applies to you but I hope you get my
    point. Once I realized this my nights have been alittle easier, except
    every time my girlfriend graons I think we have to go to the hospital.
         Good luck, I hope your dreams are yours and you are not the
    dreams.
    
                                          Thomas
    

    And what about that ever-popular dream about going to work completely
    naked!  This is another recurring dream that I get every once in
    awhile.  Either I am completely naked, or I am just wearing a short
    T-shirt that stops at the waist.
    
    What makes this dream such a nightmare?
    
    No one seems to notice that I am nude... ;-)
    
    Or, ever have that dream where you are going to write a final exam and
    you can't find the examination room?  Add to that, I am on my way to
    the exam and I suddenly realize I haven't attended even 1 class!  I
    have no idea what the material is about.
    
    It's the recurring ones that are killers.
    
    Normand                                     

    RE:  .56
    
    Yup, I get these myself.
    
    So, any amateur Freudians out there want to take a shot?
    
    L
    

    Yeah Thomas being married after being a bachelor is QUITE an adjustment
    as you are finding out.  I got married at 35 and I will tell you it
    took me YEARS to really come to terms with being married.  I am not
    suprised you are having nightmares and dreams about it.  Over time
    you will adjust.
    
    Jeff

    Nude Dreams:  Take a shot.  Well, errrr...... ahhem. This is what "Dr.
    Gilman" thinks:
    
    Obviously the nude part has a sexual element, it doesn't take a rocket
    scientist to figure that out.  But I think being nude in public among
    peers implies vulnerability.  I suspect that subsconsciouly that you
    feel vulnerable at work and that its being expressed by being nude
    in dreams.  It has an element of lack of control too.. because any
    rational person would not come into work nude if they valued their
    job and staying out of jail.
    
    Jeff

Yes, I've definitely had many of those dreams about going to class and realizing
I've missed most of the semester, and I have no idea how I'm going to catch up.


/Eric

    re .56, I have been out of high school for 26 yrs. and I *still* have
    recurring dreams about missing the school bus!!  :-)
    
    I, also, have recurring dreams where I'm late for a class and I'm
    wandering around a huge building which turns out to be a combination of
    my old high school, the (Digital) Mill, (in Maynard where I worked for
    a total of 8 yrs.), and a big shopping mall!!!  I wander around and
    around looking for the right classroom, knowing I'm late and growing
    ever more anxious.  I must dream this about 10 times a year.
    
    Lorna
    

    Also, I never dream that I'm naked, but I do dream that I'm out in
    public and suddenly realize that I'm in my nightgown and robe and I'm
    suddenly horribly embarrassed and hoping no one will notice. 
    
    Another common dream is that I'm out in public somewhere, in some sort
    of building, and I realize I have to go to the bathroom really bad, and
    the only toilet I can find is sitting right out in the open in a room
    with people walking around, and I have to decide whether I have to go
    bad enough to go in front of other people!!  Another similar dream is
    that I have to go to the bathroom and I find a public restroom that has
    lots of stalls but every single one of them is disgustingly dirty and I
    have to decide if I have to go bad enough to use one of them!
    
    Lorna
    

    I tend to have recurring "Oh NO, what am I doing BACK in the Navy I
    thought I got out" dreams.
    
    Jeff

.57>    So, any amateur Freudians out there want to take a shot?

I'm an amateur Jungian, myself, but I like to think about my own dreams, so
here goes some thinking about these...

.56>    And what about that ever-popular dream about going to work completely
>       naked!

I have one like this sometimes, usually in some social context, not at work.
It seems to me to be not sexual, but about vulnerability, as Jeff suggested
in .59.  For me, it is a good feeling, connected with freedom and openness, 
as if my unconscious is telling me that it is OK to take my armor off when
I am with friends.

.56>    Or, ever have that dream where you are going to write a final exam and
>       you can't find the examination room? 

Yep.  Quite often.  This seems to be one form of a responsibility 
dream, which is said to be quite common.  We have these when we are worried
about some responsibility in our lives.  Sometimes it seems to me that my
unconscious is just echoing back my daytime concern with some task at work.
Sometimes my unconscious seems to be telling me to pay attention to some
responsibility I have been neglecting.
    
.56>    It's the recurring ones that are killers.

Right.  All the guys (Adler, Freud and Jung) agree that it is the recurring
dreams that contain the most important information.

.62>    the only toilet I can find is sitting right out in the open in a room
>    with people walking around, and I have to decide whether I have to go
>    bad enough to go in front of other people!!  Another similar dream is
>    that I have to go to the bathroom and I find a public restroom that has
>    lots of stalls but every single one of them is disgustingly dirty and I
>    have to decide if I have to go bad enough to use one of them!

I've had dreams like both of these recently, but not before.  I still don't
understand them very well.

For a long time, I had dreams in which shit, filth and mud were present.  After
a while I connected this with repressing a lot of negative feelings and
issues.  My unconscious seemed to be saying:  "Hey!  You deal with this stuff.
Don't just keep dumping it down here on me."  Once I got the message and
started dealing with these feelings directly, the dreams went away, mostly.
When they come back, it seems to be because I have been neglecting the
sanitary arrangements in my psyche.

I think that the public toilet dream I had was connected with my concern 
about dealing with my issues in group therapy, but I may be forcing that to 
fit.  I can only remember dreaming that once.

    Got a cure if your dreams are bothering you.  Become a single, working
    parent.  You'll be so busy and so tired that you won't remember your
    dreams!  ;-)
    
    I'm saying this facetiously of course, but there's a question inside
    it.  (In the best dream tradition)  Why do I only recall my dreams when
    I'm very well rested?  I assume that I do dream every night, but I'm
    just barely getting enough sleep (for me 7 to 8 hours) and I very
    rarely recall dreaming.  Often I do let my self wake up naturally
    without an alarm, so the lack of recall isn't caused by being awakened
    by an outside stimulus, unless my toddler pounces on me!
    
    Laura

    
    I've been having reoccuring dreams that I need to sleep.  I walk my
    dog in the dream and I find a bench and I need to sleep, or I'm
    driving in my dream and I get to a stoplight and I sleep..and so on...
    
    for months now, I dream I need to sleep.
    
    I have been very very very very busy, but I wish the dreams would stop
    and let me sleep.
    
    lkp

It's fascinating that others of you have the same recurring dreams as me.

Yes, I also sometimes dream of having to use the toilet  (pee) and the only
available ones are disgustingly dirty, and I'm searching for one I'm willing
to use.

I finally wake up, and realize I really do have to pee, and then I'm thankful
that I didn't find a good toilet in the dream.

Why do I say thankful ?

Because I remember many years ago, dreaming that I had to pee, dreaming that
I found a suitable toilet, and then suddenly being awakenened by that warm
wet feeling (I assume you know what happened).

So, every since that one accident years ago, my dreams of unsuitable toilets
have helped me wake up and walk to the real bathroom.

of course, another connection I should mention in all fairness to any of you
using this data for your own analysis:  Years ago, in 7th grade, I was once
peeing in the urinal, and a kid came up behind me, grabbed me by the shoulders,
pulled me back a step and laughed and said "don't pee on the floor".  Other kids
laughed, and I was very embarrassed.

For years after that, I gradually developed a urinary retention problem, in
which the symptom was I couldn't pee in any restroom where I even thought someone
else might come in.  In fact, in my early years at Digital (almost 20 years
ago) at the height of the problem, I sometimes had to walk into the woods to
relieve myself.

It was only about that time, which was years after the 7th grade incident, that
by talking with a therapist, we realized the connection between the incident and
the urinary retention problem.

/Eric

    re .67  WOW!  What an illustraton of a 'harmless joke' causing a
    big problem!  A significant number of guys have a urine retention
    problem...  your not alone.  I remember when taking my Navy physical
    that there was a bunch of guys who COULDN'T go on demand... not because
    there was no 'product' available but because of the pressure and being
    watched.
    
    An appropriate response to that kid who turned you would have been to
    continue peeing, but.... on HIM!  THAT would have been a punishment fitting
    the crime and the laughs would have been on him (so to speak).
    
    Yeah meybe your dreams you described are a result of that.  Just
    knowing it might help?
    
    Isn't it strange at how sensitive we humans are regarding privacy about
    toilet functions?  No other mammals are that I know of.  
    
    Jeff

RE: .67

A couple of times I've had those dreams where I did go to the bathroom in the
dream, but when I woke up I didn't have that "warm, wet feeling." (Actually, I
was pretty amazed that it didn't happen, and if I didn't wake up sooner, it
probably would have happened.) It reminds me a bit of the wivestale about
dying in your sleep and dying in real life.

RE: .68

>    Isn't it strange at how sensitive we humans are regarding privacy about
>    toilet functions?  No other mammals are that I know of.  

Actually, it's not quite a human thing, but a cultural thing. There are
some cultures where relieving oneself in front of others is as acceptable as 
eating in front of others is to us...

- Jim

    Cultural:  Yeah, in Italy they have street urinals and they don't think
    a thing of it.  They why are some people in the U.S. SO sensitive to
    privacy while others aren't? Is it a cultural training difference or
    personality differences?  How do we get trained to NEED privacy?
    My son, at five years old DEMANDS his bathroom privacy now.  How
    did we teach him that?
    
    I think that the dream that you died and you die in your sheep is
    an old wives tale.  Hmmmmm.... if someone DID dream they died and
    they died in their sleep they wouldn't live to tell about it would 
    they?   Smile
    
    Jeff

    I was drawing the connection between the dying in your sleep myth and
    going to the bathroom in your sleep, because I have done both in my dreams
    and neither has happened to me in real life since I was a little kid, in
    fact, I don't recall EVER dying when I was little!
 
    - Jim

.66>    I have been very very very very busy, but I wish the dreams would stop
>    and let me sleep.

Dreams let you sleep.  In fact, there is some indication that dream sleep is
the most restful kind (nightmares excepted.)  I seem to remember a study in
which half the subjects were awakened when rapid eye movement (REM) sleep
began, and half were awakened just as often, but randomly through the night.
The REM deprived subjects were much sleepier during the day.

If I had the dreams in .66, I'd make a little more time for sleep.

.68>    Isn't it strange at how sensitive we humans are regarding privacy about
>    toilet functions?  No other mammals are that I know of.  

Cats, big and small, wild and domestic, seek seclusion and also try to bury 
the evidence.  I've heard that that has more to do with avoiding predators than 
shyness.  Our cat will not use the litterbox if anybody walks by.  Of course, 
she also tries to eat only when nobody is around.

    That makes sense... avoiding preditors.  It WOULD be 'inconvenient' to
    be attacked while attending to toilet functions.  See... we are hard
    wired to avoid compromising situations like that.
    
    It still doesn't fix the preditor problem while one is asleep.
    Its interesting how we an seclectively screen noise while asleep.
    A mother will wake at the first cry of her baby... but some women can
    sleep though a thunderstorm without waking while the babies cry
    wake her instantly.
    
    Jeff

    
   > A mother will wake at the first cry of her baby... but some women can
   > sleep though a thunderstorm without waking while the babies cry
   > wake her instantly.
    
   Jeff... you aren't suggesting that only mothers hear their infant's
    cries, are you?  My dad was the one who came to us at night.
    
    Normand 

    RE: .74 I assume that sometimes people use mother as a generic term
    for parent. :-)
    
    When our son was small it was always me who woke at his cry. Part of
    that stems from that fact that he was a very large baby and my wife had
    a C-section. He was bigger than she was supposed to carry for a while.
    So when he woke I had to get him regardless of who was doing the
    feeding. Some habits don't break easily.
    
    		Alfred

    Quite right.  Dads' too.  Sorry about that sexist comment.
    
    Jeff

    We screen all auditory input all the time, awake and asleep.  We
    relegate "unimportant" input to the "noise" category, and then ignore
    it (it's still there, it simply doesn't impact our consciousness).  If
    we didn't selectly choose what to react to, the sensory overload would
    drive us to distraction.
    
    "Important" input we react to -- a child's sound falls very high on
    this list, and that's why a rather quiet cry from a baby will awaken a
    parent from a sound sleep -- during a thunderstorm the parent spelt
    through.
    

Last night I had an awful dream about being TFSO'd.  I was pretty shook up
when I woke.

In the dream was a woman named Liz that works here.   She had a list of
people being TFSO'd.

First, she read some names, then said that's it for this week.

A bit later, she was at the copy machine zeroxing the list.  I was about to try
to sneak a peek at it when she asked if I'd like to know if I'm listed for
next week's TFSO's.

I said sure, and she read down the list and said yup, you're on it.  She wasn't
even compassionate, just matter of fact.

I looked, and there was my name, and it said June 15 next to my name.  (That
happens to be my DEC anniversary, 19 years)

I immediately felt my stomach and heart kind of shrivel into a knot, and I felt
dizzy, scared, angry, all at once.  I felt like collapsing on the floor.

About that point, I woke up, and was relieved it was a dream, but still felt
quite shook up.

This is all interesting to me, because I haven't been particularly worried
about being tfsoed.  I think my position is fairly secure.  But underneath my
conscience, perhaps I am worried, and that's why I had the dream.

Thanks for starting this dream topic.

/Eric

    Why do I make jerky spasm's when i'm starting to fall asleep.I know
    this is common but why does it happen?

The latest I've read on this is "no one knows".

			Steve

re .79 and .80

I heard that it is a race condition between two events:

   A	conscious mind loses control of impulses to large muscles

   B	nerve system disconnects large muscles

When we go to sleep, the sequence should be B-A, but if it is A-B we may
get a big twitch and wake ourselves up.

As mentioned earlier, when we wake up the process should reverse itself.  When
the reverse order is wrong, we feel frozen.


The "latest" in .80 may mean that this explanation is too simple, or even 
outright wrong.

    I think you get those jerky motions because your muscles are relaxing
    and stored amounts of lactic acid may suddenly release.  Lactic acid
    develops as you use muscles and is released and recycled by the body
    when you relax.  When you get muscle pains after over-exercising, it's
    the lactic acid that's responsible.
    
    L

    There's a medical term for it (Of course. There's a medical term for
    everything. Including "something's wrong but we don't have any idea
    what".); I saw it in the paper some time last week (in a medical-advice
    column, I think) but can't remember what it was. I believe that column
    agreed that the actual causes of or reasons for the syndrome aren't yet
    understood...
    
    _I_ think it's a survival reaction. If you happen to be falling asleep
    in a situation where that would be dangerous, the jerk gives you a
    chance to recover; if it turns out you're safe, your subconscious (or
    your conscious, if the jerk's severe enough) presses the reset button
    and you drop off to sleep. (I believe this because the "jerk" reaction
    saved me many times from falling asleep in Calculus 101.)
    
    -b

    >There's a medical term for it (Of course. There's a medical term for
    >everything. Including "something's wrong but we don't have any idea
    >what".)
    
    True -- the term is idiopathic.  Several years ago I went to a
    dermatologist and told him "I don't know why, but every time I 
    go out into strong sunlight I break out in this itchy rash."
    
    The doctor came back and told me that I had "idiopathic photodematitis"
    which is Greek for "We don't know why, but the sun causes you to break
    out into a rash."
    					andrew

    The prefix idio- means one's own and the root -path- relates to
    suffering; basically idiopathic means it's a problem your system seems
    to have brought on by itself rather than one caused by an external
    pathogen such as a bacterium, a virus, or a chemical.  Autoallergic
    conditions are idiopathic.

.84> The doctor came back and told me that I had "idiopathic photodematitis"
.84> which is Greek for "We don't know why, but the sun causes you to break
.84> out into a rash."

    There are several known chemicals in vegetables, such as lettuce and
    celery, which can cause such a reaction.

    Your affected skin might have been exposed to one of those, or perhaps
    some similar chemical.

    Idiopathic: (Gr. "idios," own + "pathic," disease) Pertaining to
    conditions without clear parthogenesis, or disease without recognizable
    cause, as of spontaneous origin.
    
    Idiopathy: A primary disease without apparent external cause.
    
    "...without recognizable cause" sounds like "we don't know" to me.
    
    					andrew
    
    Source: Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary

>.84> The doctor came back and told me that I had "idiopathic photodematitis"
>.84> which is Greek for "We don't know why, but the sun causes you to break
>.84> out into a rash."
>
>    There are several known chemicals in vegetables, such as lettuce and
>    celery, which can cause such a reaction.
    
    Turned out to be hops.

    I think the name of the primary chemical irritant in vegetables is
    "psoralyn."  That's from memory; my dictionary doesn't have a listing
    for that word.

>    Turned out to be hops.

 How unfortunate!

>>    Turned out to be hops.
>
> How unfortunate!
    
    I got over it...
    					andrew

    Is it true that Cheese provokes great dreams.
    
    Any other legal substances that will do this ??
    

    Sleeping pills will provoke great night mares. Too many sleeping pills
    will invoke very very long sleep.:) 

    I had a funny dream while I was on vacation last week that I was at
    some sort of huge get together where, set-up in a field, were dozens of
    long tables filled with all sorts of desserts.  I was told that I could
    pick out anything I wanted, but when I tried to take a certain piece of
    cake that I thought looked especially good, the woman standing behind
    the table wouldn't let me take any.  She said she was saving it.  This
    incensed me and I went over to some other people and started
    complaining to them about what a bitch this woman was for not letting
    me have the cake I wanted.  The other people tried to convince me that
    the cake had turned out so good that it wasn't going to be eaten, but I
    was convinced that it was being saved for the woman's friends and I was
    really angry because I didn't think it was fair.  
    
    The woman's name seemed to be Claire, although she wasn't anyone I know
    in real life.  I was convinced that she wouldn't let me have the cake
    simply because she didn't like me, and that she was lying about saving
    it.  I told the other people that I wanted to get on the loud speaker
    and announce to everyone there (hundreds of people), that "Claire is a
    bitch!"   :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Sounds like TFSO anxiety, Lorna.
    
    Picnic == DEC
    
    tables == groups
    
    desserts == jobs
    
    Claire == your supervisor, denying you what you want from the company

    This has been a tuff one to write. I will re-enter this for what ever.
    
    When I was doing my gum shoe work on trying to prove that my former
    was/is living with a child molester and had/have custody at the time. I
    had to sleep in cars, alleys, under trees, and in dumpsters of a little
    hamlette in Mass. Where you can be arrested for very good intentions
    such as mine.
    
    Anyhow, the ex's beau would leave for work to drive for a trucking firm
    at ruffly 3am every morning. I had to prove that he was leaving there,
    set up a pattern of time when he went etc. As so that a private
    detective could go down to the site and any random night and he would
    leave the abode like clock work. Well one night, this took place around
    Christmas time. And I fell asleep in the alley, dressed in dark
    clothing, with cammera under my jacket. I missed him, and yet I was
    watching him too. I saw the figure leave. But my eyes were closed, and
    I heard North American Indians chanting. Singing and bells were
    jingling in the the chant. I woke, there was snow on me. I was scared
    that I wasn't there. I got up, it was 5:30am. Got in my truck and left.
    It took a couple of baths. 
    
    Next time I went out, I got him, I got pics, times dates. Perhaps the
    Gods were blessing me for the good hunt. And funny, some tribal nations
    years ago felt that the taking of a picture was a means of taking the
    soul of a person. No doubt, they were right. For I got them lie-ing 
    in the act. Pergery. 
    
    No, I am not of the nationality. Just happy things turned out. And am
    also glad that I did not get frost bite, or other cold related things.
    
    Peace

    HI CHRIS 
    I HAVE A GIRLFRIEND WHO SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS TO HER ALSO.  SHE
    SAYS THAT IT STARTS AT HER FEET, AND MOVES UPWARD.  SHE TRIES TO FIGHT
    IT, AND THAT IT TAKES ALL HER STRENGTH TO EVEN MAKE A SOUND.  IT'S BEEN
    HAPPENING TO HER FOR YEARS, SHE'S TRIED TO GET HELP, BUT NO ONE
    UNDERSTANDS.  SEEMS NOW HER DAUGHTERS EACH EXPERIENCE A FORM OF
    WHAT HAPPENS TO HER.  I TOLD HER OF YOUR STORY, AND SHE SAID THAT YOU
    COULD CALL HER IF YOU LIKE.  HER NAME IS JOYCE, AND HER # IS 368-0228
    MAYBE YOU BOTH COULD FIGURE THIS THING OUT. GOOD LUCK.