Conference quark::mennotes

> What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have 
> child(ren)?

I love kids .. more than anything in the world.  My wife did to .. there
was no question but that raising kids would be the greatest and most rewarding
challenge to any human being.  We discussed it before marriage, but only
briefly.  There simply was no question but that we wanted to have children.

> Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 

Neither was necessary.  The .. er .. ah .. more "serious" discussion came
when we started discussing the NUMBER of children that we would have.  There's
a side of me which says if *either* has to "sell" the other .. the potential
for future problems is seriously high.  Hey, I've been in sales for 16 years
and do not deny but that I've made some bad sales, but in perfectly good
faith at the time the sale was made.

> If you have child(ren), how has your relationship with your spouse
> changed, i.e., have child(ren) added or detracted in the way you
> relate to your spouse?

I could spend a few thousand lines on this but will try to "summarize" .. I'm
no longer married but perhaps this will help:

When there are two .. that's one thing .. when there are three or four - the
complications mount exponentially.  Yes, it did change the relationship between
my spouse and me.  Don't get me wrong - nothing dramatic or fatal but there
were some very serious differences of opinions as to what was and what was
not important with respect to raising the kids.

> What have you learned from your child(ren), i.e., what have your
> child(ren) taught you about yourself that you wouldn't have gotten
> from your spouse?

There were times when I, in an effort to do the right thing, made things much
too complicated .. then .. my daughter says "Daddy, why not ....".  Thud.  They
taught me to think "simple" first.

> Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  
> Why is that?

You'd have to define "important".  They both mean more to me than anything in
the world.  Taking this question in a very broad sense I may be inclined to
say "my children".  When I did something in favor of my kids instead of my
spouse I'd always have it in the back of my head that my wife was an adult
and she could accept certain things better than a child could .. and .. I'd
take "sides" with whatever the child wanted.

> How do you relate to your son versus your daughter?

I wish I could answer this.  I always wanted a boy but my wife had two girls.
It's her fault.  :-)
    
Bubba

    I have two daughters (age 4 and 8 months) and have been in heaven
    ever since the first one was born.  My wife and I discussed children
    before we were married and even picked out names.  We want to try
    once more for a boy but probably in several years.
    
    The children definitely take time away from you and your spouse.
    There's no way around that.  I think this has actually made our
    private moments together even better since they are not very
    frequent.
    
    I think that being young parents (I'm 29, my wife is 27) we have
    the energy for kids.  I love to read them stories all day, or
    mess up a room with them, or just rock with them for hours on end.
    We made a commitment to have children, not put them in daycare (my
    wife does not work outside of the home), and to cherish the time
    we can spend with them.  We have endless hours and hours of video
    tape of them.  They'll only be babies and toddlers once and we
    want to make sure we enjoy every minute of it.  We have found that
    they grow up way too fast.
    
    As to who is more important?  I don't think I can answer that.  That's
    like asking which daughter do I love more...
    
    
    
    					

>      What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have child(ren)?

 I've always felt that having children was a natural part of growing up.
Not having children would be as alien to me as never bothering to learn
to walk.

>      Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 

 No "selling" was necessary. We both felt children had to be an option
in our future for us to have a future.

>      If you have child(ren), how has your relationship with your spouse
>      changed, i.e., have child(ren) added or detracted in the way you
>      relate to your spouse?

 There have been children in our lives since day one since she already had
a family when I met her. Having our own children has brought us closer together
and given us something very, very special to share.

>      Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  

 This is a difficult question to answer, and worse, it's nearly a pointless
question. I relate to my children differently than my wife so there is
no apples to apples comparison possible. Under any given circumstances either
may take priority over the other. I suppose an argument can be made that
my children are more important, because no matter what occurs between
my wife and I, my children will always be my children even if my wife
is not always my wife. But it seems like a fairly pointless comparison to
make.

 The Doctah

>             What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have 
>             child(ren)?

    You have a choice? :-) Actually I always assumed I'd have one or more
    children. It seemed as natural a thing to do a grow older.

>             Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 

    We both wanted children. There was no selling involved. I don't think
    selling a spouse on having a child is a safe thing to do.

>             If you have child(ren), how has your relationship with your spouse
>             changed, i.e., have child(ren) added or detracted in the way you
>             relate to your spouse?

    I don't think our relationship has changed all that much because of
    having a child. Our schedules sure but not our relationship. I think
    that's because we work at having a relationship between us. We're not
    just parents, we're husband and wife. Some people do seem to fall into
    the trap of being just parent and ignore the spouse relationship. Those
    people tend to grow apart. We never want to see that happen.

>             Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  
>                                   Why is that?

    An unanswerable question. Sort of like which is more important: eating
    or breathing. 

>             How do you relate to your son versus your daughter?

    I only have one child - a son. Speculation about how I'd relate to a 
    daughter would have not positive result. One never really knows until
    one is faced with the situation. This is especially true of being a
    parent.

    			Alfred

   > What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have child(ren)?
    
    Always wanted children, used to raising children (2d of 6), approved of
    the way my parents did it, confident that I could
    
   > Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 
                                             
    No selling needed on either side. We also agreed that, ideally, we'd
    want at least 3, maybe four (my theory is it's not a family until they
    outnumber you!) We stopped at three for various reasons (my age, 3
    Caesarians, complexity of family and work, etc)
    
  > relations to spouse...
    
    Added in the sense that they are another important dimension to our
    lives, detracted in the sense that they compound the demands on one's
    life. Aside from that, I don't think I could say -- people's
    relationships change all the time, and I wouldn't really know how much
    of that change is due to the children or to some other influence.
    Suffice it to see that we still love each other very much and are happy
    with our life.
    
   >  What have you learned from your child(ren)...
    
    Not much -- I knew what to expect, and how marvelous it usually is. It
    has turned out as I assumed it would, for which I am happy.  It's less
    a matter of learning from them than delighting in them.
    
    >Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  
             
    I like the Doctah's reply. It's something I've thought about often, and
    couldn't figure out how to judge. Now I know I don't have to!
    
    >  How do you relate to your son versus your daughter?
    
    I relate to my children based on how our personalities and interests
    mesh, not on their sex.  I do find it disconcerting that the boy (8) is
    very "boy-like" and the elder girl (5) is very "girl-like". The younger
    daughter (3) is more like the boy. We don't think these stereotypes are
    useful or appropriate, and we assume that we're dealing with
    superficial cultural traits rather than deep-seated traits -- i.e.,
    that an interest in dolls and easily hurt feelings do not later mean
    passivity and easy boxing into "female" activities; or that a laconic
    and independent style do not lead to suppression of feelings and a
    sense of male superiority. 
    
    
    Kit

    	There was noting motivational other than "wanting" to have a child.
    Then we had another and it was as wonderful as the first. We decided on
    three, my wife loved having them but it reeked havoc on her body. The
    first two were girls and I decided that I'd never 'need' a son. The
    third was a boy and I realized that having a boy was different, but no
    less or more wonderful than the girls.
    	Our lives have changed because the kids were a priority and
    everything else took a second seat. We changed our out look about three
    years ago and decided that we would place a higher prioriy on our
    happiness than in the past. It worked....the kids are happy and so are
    we.
    	Our kids were 4 years apart. Each one was special and had special
    times with mom and dad without the others being involved...
    
    KEN

>             What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have 
>             child(ren)?
          
    I love children. We wanted five, but could only have two, due to my
     wife's medical condition.

>             Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 

          Nope ! We both felt the same. We had our first 1.5 years after we
          were married. I was 24 my wife was 23.

>             If you have child(ren), how has your relationship with your spouse
>             changed, i.e., have child(ren) added or detracted in the way you
>             relate to your spouse?
            
     Your not married until you have children. In my case it strengthened
    my marriage, because the marriage was strong to begin with. I would
    not want to see people have children in order to strengthen a weak
    relationship. Children will only help destroy a bad marriage.


    >         What have you learned from your child(ren), i.e., what have your
>             child(ren) taught you about yourself that you wouldn't have gotten
>             from your spouse?

     My children taught me that I needed to grow up. They taught me that my
     own parents did a pretty good job. They've also shown me that I'm more
     like my father than I wanted to be.

>             Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  
>                                   Why is that?

       Difficult question. My wife and myself would give our lives for our
       children, but I would give my life for my wife and my children. 

>             How do you relate to your son versus your daughter?

         Different, but equal. My son is more sensitive than my daughter. 
         My daughter is more likely to rebel than my son. 

    There is a saying that when you have a boy and he's a jerk, he's your 
    problem, but when you have a girl, everybody's jerk is your problem. 

     Jim

            
>     Your not married until you have children. In my case it strengthened


      We took a slightly different tack, we got married first, then had 
      a child.

      8')  couldn't resist.

.7> We wanted five, but could only have two...

I wanted four.  My wife wanted two. After I took both kids to the shoe
store (at the same time) .. I opted for two.  How anyone can afford more
than one or two kids these days .. I'll never know (or they don't work
for DEC).

Bubba

    Never wanted any. Never had any. Don't particularly like them (or at
    least I'm uncomfortable if I am forced to "relate" to them), so avoiding
    them seems perfectly natural to me. 

    I have five children. My wife is at home being a full time mother.
    I work for DEC...send donations! :) :)
    
    I really have mixed feelings about the children. At times, they can be
    an incredible strain on me, financialy and emotionally. My children
    range in age from 16 to 5.
    
    At other times, though, they make life so worthwhile that my eyes
    mist up!
    
    As far as number of children....we had as many as my wife to have. Her
    body just said....this is it at 5.
    
    Two children was easy, three was starting to get tough. 5 is way more
    than is comfortable....but....I can honestly say that I would do it all
    over again.
    
    Marc H.

    My wife is pregnant now and is due on the 24th of this month. This is
    our first child and we are both getting pretty excited. Before we were
    married we agreed to have two kids no closer than three years between
    them. Neither of us had to "sell" the other on having kids or when. We
    don't care if it's a boy or girl just as long as it's healthy. We've
    had two ultrasounds, one at 17 weeks and the other just last week. I
    could've sat there and watched the baby's movements all day! The
    ultrasound technician knows the baby's sex, but we told her not to
    tell us. We would rather wait until the big day. Also, this is the
    first grandchild for both of our parents, so we are expecting some
    major spoiling whether we like it or not.
    
    Darren

    	I spent two hours rocking my sister-in-law's 3 week old last night.
    I'd forgotten how good I was at rocking (boring??) babies to sleep.
    I have a very deep, smooth voice and when I hum, I rumble. It took 
    maybe 2 minutes for Hannah to go to sleep, but I couldn't put that
    little package into her bed. They headed back to Maine this morning and
    I have to say I felt a real sorrow at seeing them go......so I called
    the hospital this morning and asked if there was a need for a
    Professional Baby Rocker.........Gues what I'm doin' Saturday??? 8^)
    
    Ken

.12> My wife is pregnant now and is due on the 24th of this month.

     CONGRATULATIONS, Darren!  Hope everything goes as planned.  Looks like
     you'll be taking some time off around the 24th...

.12> This is our first child and we are both getting pretty excited.

     These are times you will never forget.  You will probably never see
     your wife so beautiful (although she probably doesn't think so)...
     Are you planning to cut the cord?

.12> Before we were married we agreed to have two kids no closer than three 
     years between them. 

     Be careful...  From here it looks like you and your wife are candidates
     for twins or triplets the next time :^)

.12> We don't care if it's a boy or girl just as long as it's healthy. 

     For our first one, we didn't care either.  I thought it would be the
     same with our second, however, my wife just had to know...  It seems
     that having had a boy the first time made it natural to want a girl
     the next time around.  Because we were fairly old (she was 38 for #2)
     they sent us for an Amniocentesis so we knew the sex of Benjamin early
     on.  Knowing this set our expectations (some women say "they would leave
     the baby by the side of the road" if it was a boy).  In retrospect, I'm
     glad we knew...  It is said that after #1 the novelty wears off.  In our
     case, we had a bit of information for #2 that we didn't have for #1 and
     it made that experience unique for us (Father, Mother, & Ben's Brother).

.12> We've had two ultrasounds, one at 17 weeks and the other just last week. I
.12> could've sat there and watched the baby's movements all day! The
.12> ultrasound technician knows the baby's sex, but we told her not to
.12> tell us. We would rather wait until the big day.

     Yup, it's cheating if they tell you...  I remember watching the ultrasound
     for my Christopher and seeing indications that it would probably be a boy
     and that he would be a LOVER as well :^)

  Darren, make sure you come back and tell us when you first had the revelation
  that "you had become a Daddy"...

  Regards, Don

 .0>  What were/are your motivations in deciding to have/not have child(ren)?

      Early on, my wife and I were in a stage where we didn't want to deal
      with children...  It took about 10 years of marriage before we felt
      ready and able to make the "2nd greatest commitment of our lives".

 .0>  Did you "sell" your spouse on the idea or did she/he "sell" you? 

      In going from "not wanting" to "wanting" children I first had to "sell"
      myself on the idea...  Could/Would I be a good father?  My own father
      died when I was five so how was I to know what a good father was?  There
      was this fear around infants that somehow I might hurt them (as in drop
      or squeeze them too hard).  My wife was having the same ruminations about
      her ability to be a good mother.  Could we love children as much as we
      loved each other?  I think eventually we concluded that, for us, there
      were NO good reasons to NOT have children...  

 .0>  If you have child(ren), how has your relationship with your spouse
 .0>  changed, i.e., have child(ren) added or detracted in the way you
 .0>  relate to your spouse?

      My wife and I also do the Ward/June Cleaver mode of family but instead
      of getting Wally and the Beaver it sometimes seems as though we got 
      Eddie Haskell and Lumpy :^)  Come to think of it, my oldest son (5) is
      going through his "Dennis the Menace" stage these days...  Hopefully, 
      Father _will_ know best!

      As for relating to my wife, I think we teach each other to be parents.
      We depend upon each other more than we ever have...  Why, just as soon
      as I finish this reply I head home so that I can unlock her from the
      closet :^)

 .0>  What have you learned from your child(ren), i.e., what have your
 .0>  child(ren) taught you about yourself that you wouldn't have gotten
 .0>  from your spouse?

      I had this theory at one time that before you could become a good
      parent you first had to be a good Husband or Wife...  It now seems
      that being a parent helps in becoming a good Husband.

      My boys teach me Diversity in ways that I can't get from my wife.  The
      question "Why" from a child is usually innocent but from an adult is
      usually construed as an attack.  You need children in your life so that
      the "Whys" are not threatening...

 .0>  Who's more important: Your child(ren) or your spouse?  
 .0>                        Why is that?

      Yes, shame on me for asking such a question!  How could anyone select
      one over the other especially when you are prepared to give your life
      for either...

 .0>  How do you relate to your son versus your daughter?

      I don't know...  I have two sons...

    Re:.14
    
    Don,
    Yes, I would like to cut the cord, however if I don't I won't be that
    dissappointed. As for twins or triplets next time, no thanks! One at a
    time is exciting enough!!! Although I have to admit that up until the
    first ultrasound I kidded my wife that she might be having twins. I'll
    let you know how things go on or about the 24th.
    
    regards,
    Darren

    Hi everyone!
    
    It's been a while since my last note, but the big day finally arrived!
    Krista Elizabeth Aelick was born at 1:34 a.m. on Friday May 7th. She
    weighed 8 lbs. 10 oz. and was delived by C-section. On Tuesday the 4th
    the doctor decided to induce Lisa Thursday morning. The I.V. drip was
    started at 8:30 a.m. and although the nurse steadily increased the
    amount of drip, nothing really started to happen until about 12:30 p.m.
    The doctor decided that we were not going to have the baby today but
    would leave the drip on until 6:00 p.m. then start over again the next
    day. About 10 minutes later Lisa's water broke and the nurse told us
    that the drip would stay on until Lisa had the baby. Then the hard
    labour started, about 12 hours of it. Finally the doctor decided that
    Lisa would not dialate more than 9.5 cm and her contractions were not
    regular or intense enough (seemed pretty intense to me!) so he decided
    to do a C-section. Both of my ladies are doing very well and Lisa
    should be released on Wednesday this week. Krista is in the Intensive
    Care Nursery because she had a slight fever and mucus in her stomach,
    but the fever is gone and the mucus has passed through her. They want
    to keep an eye on her and they assure us that she is fine.
    
    I think the realization that I was a Daddy first hit when I first saw
    her. It's hard to describe the feeling, but i just wanted to cuddle her
    and hold her forever! When I went into the nursery to see Krista, I
    also saw the other babies in there too. Some of them were very
    premature and I wondered how a human that small could live outside the
    womb. It really made me feel how lucky I was to have a healthy baby and
    also made realize that Krista's fever and mucus problem was very minor
    when you compare her to some of the other babies. I can't wait to bring
    her home!!
    
    Bye for now,
    Darren
    

    CONGRATULATIONS!  From the father of two girls .. don't believe any of
    this crap about "girls are easier to raise than boys".  Big time wrong.
    Makes no difference .. a healthy mommie and baby is the best reward in
    the world.
    
    Bubba
    
    PS:  Buy your daughter a copy of Rush Limbaugh's book .. read to her
    daily from it .. she will be a better person.

    GOOD JOB, Darren!  Best wishes to you and your family...
    
    Regards, Don

This topic has been quiet for quite some time so I thought I'd share some
insight with you guys...  Be forewarned that I am about to relate secret Men
stuff so the Ladies should/must stop reading NOW.  I'll put in a form-feed...

I'd better put in another...

OK guys, now we're safe.  Any Woman getting this far obviously isn't a Lady...

As a new Father, the most frustrating aspect for me was burping the baby.  It
seemed that no matter how hard I tried nor what technique I employed, I just
couldn't get the knack.  To make matters worse, after I would again fail at
these attempts I would hand the baby back over to my wife who would put the
little guy to her shoulder and attain INSTANT success!  This really began to
gnaw at my insides for how could I become "Father of the Year" if I couldn't
burp the baby?  I tried many different things: pat, pat, pat, rub, rub, rub,
pat, rub, pat, etc., all to no avail.  Once I tried quaffing down a few beers
and letting loose with a few good ones of my own just so that I could 
demonstrate to the little guy what I expected of him.  STILL NO LUCK!  
Meanwhile, Mother, Sister, Mother-In-Law (she of the Severely Svelte-Challenged)
would visit, put the baby to their shoulder, and get a good burp even in cases
where the baby HADN'T EATEN anything!  Well, I'd had just about enough of this!
I decided that I would put my agony behind me and discover the secret...

What data did I have up to this point?  Well, Don (the guy) fails but the women
succeed...  There must be something about women that make it easy for them to
burp babies so I scrutinized their attempts, and EUREKA, when women put the
baby to their shoulder their breast is sticking into the baby's gut!

Let me tell you, the first time I emulated a breast my little guy rewarded me
with a grand and glorious BELCH, not some demure little burp!  SUCCESS AT LAST!
My self-esteem as a Father was restored!  I know the women's secret...  Now,
whenever I pass a woman (especially one who is well-endowed) in the hallway I
gotta give her a wink for I know she would have NO PROBLEM burping a baby.

NEXT TIME:  How to break your kid of the habit of always calling you "Mama"...

    re.23
    
    This was funny :-) :-)  I do have one questions though.....how
    on earth did you "emulate a breast" ?!
    
    Sue

    Kleenex?
    
    ;-)
    
    meg

    "If Men had breasts, we wouldn't need Women..." - Al Bundy


 .24> SHRCTR::SCHILTON
 .24> This was funny :-) :-)  I do have one questions though.....how
 .24> on earth did you "emulate a breast" ?!
 .24> Sue

    Hmmm...  This woman is obviously NO lady but she does have impeccable
    taste...  I nominate Sue Chilton for the Mennotes Martha Stewart Award!

 .25> CSC32::M_EVANS
 .25> Kleenex?  ;-)
 .25> meg

    It's always a pleasure to read the voice of experience, and, I think you
    may have cleared up a mystery since High School...

    The girl who sat next to me in homeroom had a pet name for her breasts
    - she called them "Charmin"...  "Why's that?" I asked.  "Please don't
    squeeze'm..." she said.  You know, after all these years I don't think 
    that was the real reason...  This being 1996 means my 25th High School
    reunion is gonna happen so maybe I'll get a chance to ask her - tactfully
    of course...