Conference quark::mennotes

I've dated a couple of women who colored their hair just to change the 
color (at least that was what they said).  I can't really see a difference 
between that and covering gray.  I don't mind it a bit.  Heck, women do so 
much other stuff to their hair, I hardly notice!!

I haven't thought much about covering gray for men, but I was recently
informed that I have ONE gray hair, so maybe. . .

I ran into a somewhat related topic a couple of nights ago:  A woman friend
of mine told me that most women wouldn't admit it, but most would prefer
the man in their life to have a full head of hair (she didn't mention the
possibility of a little gray).  I suppose she was just making a gross 
generalization, but I was a little surprised by this.  I guess it just goes 
to show that women are just as shallow as men. ;-)

Jon

    	I haven't noticed any adverts for hair colouring for men. Maybe I'm
    just unobservant, or maybe French women prefer mature men.
    
    	My wife went gray after the birth of our third child 13 years ago.
    I won't say her age, but hair colour is not a reliable indication. She
    is nearly white now, but a *very* long way from retirement. She
    believes that dyes are not very good for the hair.
    
    	I had a couple of friends at University who were going gray, then
    white and then partially bald between 19 and 21 years old. They married
    each other, so presumably their kids were  going gray at the age of 14
    ;-)
    
    	My younger daughter still enjoys trying to sort my beard. There are
    some black, some white, and some red. I have no intention of dying it.

    I don't think that women, in general, care all that much about a 
    man's hair color. I don't think too many care about hair quantity
    either but that may be wishful thinking on my part. :-) A few women
    I know do seem to like gray hair on men and some like bald men. But
    in general, even those with preferences, women don't seem to pick
    men based on hair. Especially not those mature enough for me to be
    interested in them. 

    A woman's hair color doesn't matter that much to me either. I'm more 
    interested in length and style if anything.

    I have not used hair coloring and would not. Partially because I'm
    lazy. Mainly because I really don't care that much about hair. My wife
    loves me regardless of my hair (or increasingly lack there of). I'm not
    in the market to attract any other women either. Even if I was I don't
    think I'd be interested in a women who cared more about my hair then I
    did.

>    I remember well my (ex)secretary telling me that there was an element
>    of "unfairness" in men's gray hair and women's gray hair.  When a woman
>    starts turning gray she's considered as "old" whereas as a man is
>    considered as more distinguished and mature looking .. there is a side
>    of me which agrees with this ... yet .. I see many more men's hair coloring
>    commercials then women's hair coloring commercials.

    This is a true unfairness. I think it comes from a situation where for
    men age is considered to come with power. Traditionally older men, ie.
    with gray hair, have moved up in the world beyond younger men. So as
    power is "sexy" for many people gray on men is not looked down on.
    Traditionally, the source of women's power was in their attractiveness
    which faded with age. So gray on women was a loss of power. I think
    that's starting to change as more and more women take higher places in
    the power structure. It may be different when our children are adults.
    Perhaps in the future young men will be competing for the favors of
    older, more powerful women. It wouldn't surprise me.

    The hair coloring commercials are an attempt to build a market, to
    create a need. Women have already been convinced that they need to
    color their hair. Now the makers want to sucker men in.

    		Alfred

Grecian Formula 16 ads have been a television staple for some thirty years
in the US; this product is intended to darken men's gray hair.  However,
the cosmetics industry has tried and failed a number of times to get men to
buy into the idea of men's cosmetics (hair color, skin products, etc.).  I
guess they see this huge potential market out there and don't understand why
men don't respond to the same approaches that women do.  But of course the
biggest reason, as has been said earlier, is the separate standards for men
and women regarding personal appearance.

				Steve

    I prefer other than gray or white hair on men, but any color is better
    than no hair at all.  I think coloring gray or white hair is a very
    good idea.
    
    Lorna
    

.0>    If you developed a relationship with a female and then discovered that
>    she colored her hair (to cover up the gray) .. would that make any
>    difference to you?

No, actually I find that kind of flattering.  She is interested enough in a
relationship that she works at presenting herself well.  If she overdid it,
that would be a turn-off, but that is obvious at first encounter.

>    Have you used hair coloring?  Would you use hair coloring?  Why?  Why
>    not?

Only as part of stage makeup.  Otherwise I would not use it, because I think
it makes men's hair look dirty, not dark.  Also, I'm lazy.  Also, I think 
that men with old skin and young hair look creepy.  Bela Lugosi for the 90s.

I may be influenced by the fact that I started getting gray in high school,
when looking old was a feature.

>    "unfairness" in men's gray hair and women's gray hair.  

Very true.  Our culture puts no value on old men or old women, but old for
women in our culture starts around 30, and old for men starts around 55.  All
of this is changing, but slowly.

>    I see many more men's hair coloring
>    commercials then women's hair coloring commercials.

Marketing folks pay a small fortune to be sure we see ads for men's products
and not ads for women's products.  Except around Christmas, when they 
advertise those perfumes that my wife would not wear to her own funeral.

I guess in your case it is money well spent.  I don't see commercials much 
since we got cable with a remote.  Back when I had to watch them, I saw a 
lot of ads for guys on football games, and a lot of ads for women on the 
evening soaps.

Re.6	"Our culture puts no value on old men or old women, but old for
	women in our culture starts around 30, and old for men starts 
	around 55."

In what culture's that Wally ? 

	"Marketing folks pay a small fortune to be sure we see ads for 
	men's products and not ads for women's products.  Except around 
	Christmas, when they advertise those perfumes that my wife would 
	not wear to her own funeral."

Is that really the case in America ? In Europe ads for perfumes, cosmetics, 
and clothes for women are seasonal only in content - we get them all year 
round. 

- Paul

    Paul, I would second Wally's observation in re our (American) culture
    and age.  All you need do to see the ageist bias is to watch commercial
    TV and observe the types of products pushed and the types of people to
    whom the ads are addressed.  Reebok and Nike athletic shoes shilled by
    Michael Jordan and his ilk; Bally's (a gym offering workout facilities
    and plans) pushed by Harry Belafonte's daughter; cars of all sorts
    billed as sport sedans and set in commercials featuring young
    executives, architects, or other upwardly-mobile young males; the list
    goes on.  Men's colognes, TVs (by such as John Cleese, who is timeless
    but still within the "young" range for males), and beer (young
    cowboy-types, rough 'n' ready jungle explorers desperate to cross the
    swamp to a bevy of young beauties, and so on).  About the only things
    you see advertised for older people are denture adhesive and h�morrhoid
    creams, and these are seen on game shows that air during the "dinner
    hour" before prime time or else very late at night, long after prime
    time, the news, and the late-night talk shows.  Occasionally feminine
    hygiene products are advertised, again in the off-prime-time hours.
    
    Even the Curmudgeon's Dictionary remarks on ageism:
    
        age, n.  The accretion of years resulting from the ineluctable
        passage of time, which is in art much admired but in people
        abhorred and employed as an excuse to turn competent, experienced
        workers out to pasture as if they were worn-out drayhorses.
    
    -dick

Dick, I understand the attitudes towards old age but I found Wallys' remark
interesting because of the ages involved. That women should be considered old 
at 30 and men at 55 I found surprising. In Europe attitudes vary country to 
country but none of them would consider the onset of old age as low as these 
figures.

To give you an example; in Germany professionals (men and women) will commence
their working lives at 26 or 27 but that can be as late as 32 or 33. In the UK 
that's normally 22 to 24 but can be as late as 26. Woman will normally have 
their first child (if they have any) between 25 and 35 but that can be as late 
as 38 or even 40. 

Pensionable age is 60 for woman and 65 for men but these days early retirement
tends to be the norm. People tend to treat you as 'old' when you're retired but
then only as old as you act. My father-in-law is now 63, he works out at the 
local gym two times a week, walks as often as he cares to in the mountains and 
has a respectable social life. My father is 61 and is on a world tour. I think 
he's in singapore this week. Unfortuneatley my mother died 5 years ago from 
cancer and that's aged him terribly - he's doing the trip alone which I think 
shows tremendous courage - he has a girlfriend but didn't want to take her along.

These aren't rare cases. They really are the norm and marketing men hit those
markets. 

- Paul.

Oh yes - what does that have to do with grey hair ? Nothing.

Germans tend to go bald early - so if they have any at 60 they probably don't
care what colour it is. They'd just be happy to have some.

Brits view grey hair as a distinguishing feature unless they're vain. In which
case they'd colour it and then everybody would make fun of them for being
so vain.

I have a touch of grey hair on the left side which I think looks great. Adds
that distinguished look - and some women find it sexy too - a hint of experience
and that it won't be wam bam thankyou mam and away.

- Paul.

I think 'old' is a relative term, here.  People between the ages of 30 and
55 are not considered old in a true sense, but 'middle-aged'.  Pensionable
age is between 55 and 70 in most states.  I believe the description of 30-
year-old women as old or 55-year-old men as old was in reference to their
marketing potential; products are sold with people younger than these ages.

DougO

    What's the average age expectancy for American women now?  Something
    like 78?  Most of us spend a good percentage of our lives being "old" if
    we start being "old" at 30!  If I'm already "old" why can't I retire
    and start collecting social security????
    
    Lorna
    

    Ones parents are middle aged. Ones grandparents are old.
    
    		Alfred

.7> In what culture's that Wally ? 

I should have been more specific.  I should have said the dominant sub-culture
among the many sub-cultures in the United States.  I used 'our' to include
Bubba and me.

>Is that really the case in America ? In Europe ads for perfumes, cosmetics, 
>and clothes for women are seasonal only in content - we get them all year 
>round. 

In America, advertising is targeted by gender, age and season.  If I watch
guy stuff like football games, I will see ads for women's products mostly
before Christmas.  If I watch less gender specific TV, I see more ads for 
women's products.

.9>To give you an example; in Germany professionals (men and women) will commence
>their working lives at 26 or 27 but that can be as late as 32 or 33. In the UK 

We may be comparing apples and oranges here.  In the US professionals (like
doctors, lawyers, engineers...) have similar life events at similar times.

But several high-profile careers for women, like model and actress, typically
atart around 15 and end around 30.  Consider the number of US movies starring
a man around 50 and a woman around 20.  Consider the number of these women
you never hear of again.

I was at a conference on mid-life this weekend, and several speakers commented
on how often people would come to them and say "My life is over.  I have 
nothing left to look forward to."  and these people were usually around 30.

Of course, nobody at the conference would accept that view, which is why my
earlier statement applies only to the dominant sub-culture.

    re .13, so that means that even though my mother is 80, she's only
    middle-aged.  :-)  (Except from my daughter's perspective, and in that
    case she's old, and I'm middle-aged!)
    
    (Glad Melissa doesn't have a kid yet.)
    
    Lorna
    

    	I'm getting a silver hi-lite to my hair and my moustache is about
    85% white.......
    
    	During a recent conversation a friend who is in the recruiting
    business said that if I were in the job market, he tell me to shave the
    'stach and wear my hair a bit wet and slicked back because I look
    'older' with the moustach as white as it is. 
    
    	He said having the white would reduce my chance of being hired by
    most companies by 50%.
    
    	I'm 43 and that was a sort of scary......who's job is guaranteed?
    
    Ken

    
    >> I'm 43 and that was a sort of scary......who's job is guaranteed?
    
    No one's.  That was never in the contract... 8^)
    
    It is odd to be thinking about "marketability" more and more often.
    The skills turnover rate seems to have increased steadily, more in
    some industries than in others.  I expect it has something to do
    with rates of information/technology gathering and assimilation.
    
    My gray hairs are coming slowly, and my hair is light enough so
    that they're not too noticeable.  I'll be glad to have them when
    they get here -- I've earned them.  By that time. I hope to have
    diversified my skills and income enough to be able to worry less
    about their impact on my employment.
    
    Ron

>    re .13, so that means that even though my mother is 80, she's only
>    middle-aged.  :-)  (Except from my daughter's perspective, and in that
>    case she's old, and I'm middle-aged!)
    
    Right, except it only makes sense to view it from your own perspective.
    You're as old as your feel anyway.
    
    			Alfred

    	My grandfather had an extraordinarily long period of youthful
    adulthood. At the age of 16 he was a schoolmaster in a British public
    school. At the age of 80 he still had black hairs, and started to teach
    himself to type because he thought it would be useful in his plans for
    the future.
    
    	Hair colour, age, maturity and youthfulness are not closely
    related.

    my hair color is black. very little white in it.
    
    \nasser

I suppose I might address the base note-

first, as far as attracting MOTAS- I think hair color matters.  Some
people are attracted to full blond or brown or darker hair; some like
the highlights of grey or silver or salt-and-pepper.  Can't say I think
there's a universal or even majority position; the culture accepts and
allows for images of attractive men with any of those characteristics.

second, on whether my relationship were to be discovered to be 'covering
up grey', well, if you put it that way, it points towards an interesting
discussion I could have with them, on why 'cover-up' was their choice.
If they did it for social obligations, like, say, Silver Fox's recruiter
told him; to be more influential as a more youthful-looking person in a
work or similar situation; I'd certainly accept that.  It's like the use
of make-up; not something I choose to do, something I'm frankly rather
indifferent about; something that if another person decides to do, I'll
not be arrogant enough to presume I know their life requirements better
than they do.  As it is, I already know that my sweetie colors her hair;
she's redder than she used to be because she likes it that way.  But its
somewhat different from the posed question in that she's not 'covering-up'
grey, she's blond.

Third, no I haven't used hair coloring.  Um, I take it back; I had my hair
frosted several times when I was getting perms, several years ago.  I was
going for a highlighted look, not another color; certainly it wasn't to
cover up my grey.  I did it because I liked the effect.  I'm not doing it
now because my hair isn't permed any longer; the chemicals were doing more
damage than I liked, as I was trying to grow it longer.  Coloring probably
won't be a future choice for the same reason; don't want to damage it.

Fourth; I think the unfairness of society's accepted/marketed images for
women is so blatantly obvious that it hardly needs mentioning.  Silver Fox
is worried that he'd be uncompetitive based on appearances at age 43, well,
that worry starts for women at a much younger age, and never stops.  I can't
answer for the ads you see, Jerry; marketing dogs are marketing dogs and they
all want you to buy what they push.  They're all the same.

DougO

    	This topic seems dead but, I'm reading it for the first time and I
    have to laugh. I'm 23 and my real hair color is brown and boring.
    There are so many colors out there to choose from and this new stuff,
    Glintz, awesome. It washes out in 6-8 shampoos and allows me to have
    practically any color I want. I've even combined colors just to see
    what would happen. It's hair, it grows, have fun with it and who cares.
    
    Peter