Conference quark::mennotes

    If the marriage is going to be saved, you _both_ have to want to save
    it.  If she don't, then there's _nothing_ you can do to stop it.   As
    long as you put up with her dishing out this c**p, she is going to keep
    right on doing it.  Assuming what you are telling is the whole story, 
    (and I have to take your word for it for now) I think she is _way_ out
    of line.  The "how dare you doubt me" in the face of a lot of
    questionable behavior is, IMHO, a bunch of bovine fertilizer.  Go 
    read through QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS, then get you a lawyer and 
    C.  Y.  A.  If you don't, you can end up divorced *and* bankrupt.
    If she is already talking to a lawyer, she may already be setting
    things up for your fall.  If you don't protect yourself, not only
    will your marriage, but everything you worked for for most of your
    working life, *and* a good chunk of what you *will* work for for the
    next 10-15 years will go up in smoke.

    I think both of you are in serious denial mode. At least from your side
    of the story, it's obvious you both cannot communicate whatsoever. This
    story about her going off to NH with a 'male companion' is pretty
    outrageous. I can imagine how confused your kids are....ah, but who
    needs the 'real world ? '. Myself, I can't comprehend this kind of
    behavior. I'd like to hear what happens as the days go by here....
    Only my opinion...

    	The first thing I'd do is neuter the the next door neighbor. I
    ain't jokin' Bob. I'd put this jamoke on another planet and pack
    honey's bags. Put her ass on the pavement and tell when she gets her
    itch scratched you'll discuss her alimony payment and child support
    payments to you..........then make a call to a lawyer.
	You don't love her, you're afraid to lose her and she'll make your
    life miserable as long as you let her. You're already makin' excuses
    for her .....she's sick...your trying to change....she doesn't see it.
    	C'mon man, pump up some testosterone and make a decision before she
    makes it for ya. Toss her out or you'll be apartment hunting. She's
    just gonna go over to her buddy's house and stay......unless he's
    married. Nothing better than a bit of safe fluff. He's protected from
    her as long as you're home. Once you're gone, he'll dump her and she'll
    blame you for that. 
    	Want to see your kids on a regular basis? Oh yeah.....don't you
    think that snugglin' on the couch in front of the kids isn't just a
    bit abusive to the kids? Call the social services folks and they'll be
    on your side...and so will the judge. 
    
    	If you don't do something immediately.....I got no sympathy for
    you. You have the opportunity to do the right thing. You've gone to
    therapy, you're not screwin' around, make your move.
    
    	Or are you only telling a little of the story?????
    
    K
    

    The next door neighbor doesn't need to be neutered, the basenoter's
    wife does.  It seems to me she's treating you terrible because she's
    waiting for you to take the first step in leaving, then her life 
    will be bliss.  First off, get a picture of them kissing.  Then leave.
    If she is not chasing back to you, file for divorce and custody of the 
    children.   
    
    Basenoter:  She's doing this because she knows you are putting up with it.
    Tell her YOU need time off and go somewhere else to stay for awhile. 
    She how she reacts.   Some people don't know what they have 'til it's
    gone...

    I agree with the earlier noters comment that you BOTH have to want to
    save your marriage.  Obviously, right NOW she doesn't want to, she
    wants to play around and the neighbor is all too willing.
    
    If you 'neuter' the neighbor you will drive her even further away.
    SHE has to come back to you for things to work.
    
    Not a hell of alot you can do except play YOUR cards right and be
    ready to talk with her if/when she is ready.  
    
    If you put out an ultimatim, (me or him, pick, now) you will force 
    the issue.  You may loose, she might pick HIM.
    
    I would set limits on her behavior around you and the kids.  i.e.
    no kissing/snuggling in front of any of you.
    
    Her behavior is outrageous, but might resolve itself once she 'comes
    to her senses'.  She just might do that, realize her 'error' and come
    back to you.  But NOT if you back her into a corner.  I would set the
    behavior limits, check your rights out with a lawyer, counsel the kids,
    and make sure YOU play YOUR cards right legally and morally.... and
    WAIT, patiently.
    
    This is all if YOU love her and want her back.
    
    If you have had it... then certainly you have grounds to leave right
    now.
    
    Jeff

    Whatever you do don't move out of the house.  Especially if you
    have kids.  If you do, your chances of keeping the house and kids
    go to zero.  As I tell people in the NCP notes.  DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT,
    DOCUMENT.  Start a journal.  Write down _everything_--who, what, when,
    where, etc.  Don't tell her you're doing it, and don't _ever_ let
    her read it.  Personal journals are admissible evidence in court
    in most states.  It may be the best piece of evidence you have if
    worse comes to worse.  If nothing else it will help you sort out _your_
    thoughts.

    Tell the neighbor of he doesn't quit messin' round in your marriage
    your going to have _him_ in court.  I forget what it's called, but
    it can be done.  You're probably not going to get her back by being
    an "nice" guy.  She knows you're a nice guy.  She pulls this b.s 
    because she knows she can get away with it.  The only chance you
    have is to put your foot down and hope she still wants to keep
    the marriage enough to come half way.  If she don't then the marriage 
    is stone dead anyway.  If it is, then best you admit it to yourself
    and start protecting yourself and your kids.

    fred();

.0> She continues to visit the neighbor only now they smooch in front of my
.0> kids and snuggle on the couch. She still maintains nothings ever been
.0> going on and that I've hurt her by even thinking there was. I've been 
.0> sleeping in a spare BR for 3 weeks now. The wall she's built between us
    
    Call a divorce lawyer and get some advice ASAP.
    
    Also think about closing any joint accounts and moving the money to
    somewhere safe so she can't disappear with it.  Also think about can-
    celing any credit cards in both of your names.
    
    Get the preliminaries done before you even THINK about reconciling,
    or else she could ream you big time.  You could wake up one day,
    find her and your neighbor gone, all your money gone and all the
    credit cards at their limits.

    "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    courage to  change the  things I  can, and  Wisdom  to know the 
    difference."

    Not original .. but applicable here.

    Bubba

>    Tell the neighbor of he doesn't quit messin' round in your marriage
>    your going to have _him_ in court.  I forget what it's called, but
>    it can be done.

Alienation of affections?

    re -1
    

>>    Tell the neighbor of he doesn't quit messin' round in your marriage
>>    your going to have _him_ in court.  I forget what it's called, but
>>    it can be done.
>
>Alienation of affections?
    
    Yea, somehthingl like that.  You can also discuss with him the
    possibilities of being paid a visit by you and Messrs. Colt, Smith,
    Wesson, and Ruger (:}).
    
    fred();

    Well, actually, fred(), even the mention of Messrs C., S., W., and R.
    can be interpreted as assault, which could in the event redound to the
    severe damage of .0's case.
    
    But I like the sentiment.  :-)
    
    Basenoter, retain a lawyer immediately.
    
    Line up your ducks by thorough, clandestine documentation, as someone
    suggested, including pictures if possible.  Get it notarized at
    intervals, to prove that this is not something you have faked up after
    the fact.  If you manage to save your marriage, you can destroy the
    stuff later; if not, you will have a sound case in divorce court.
    
    Threaten your neighbor with legal action for alienation of affection.
    
    And, as someone else suggested, close off your wife's access to as many
    of your shared assets as you can - an escrow account or a carefully
    defined trust strikes me as a good place to put everything you can
    possibly spare, because you can demonstrate that you are not simply
    trying to rip her off.
    
    Do it now; yuo may not have a chance later.
    
    -dick

    .............'she is doing it because your a nice guy and knows she can
    get away with it' (or words to that effect).
    
    Getting away with it misses the point.  She is a grown woman and
    doesn't have to get away with anything.  In fact she doesn't even
    seem to hiding her behavior.  The point is that SHE feels that certain
    needs aren't being adequately met by the husband, (and I don't
    necessarily mean sexual).  One partner won't run around unless there
    are unmet needs.  This doesn't mean that attempts wern't made to
    emotionally satisfy the spouse.... the 'fault' may be entirely 
    on the running around partners side because of an emotional inability
    of that spouse to 'accept' the offered support etc.
    
    "Who cares who's fault it is she is running around let her have it"
    Fine, if you like to get divorced and married alot.
    
    So whats all the psychological B.S. I have spouted above boil down to?
    
    IF he wants to save his marriage he must FORGET FAULT and figure out
    how to convince her she is better off with him.  That may mean nothing
    more than sitting back (after cancelling credit cards etc) and letting
    her dash herself on the rocks of an affair.  She may well come home
    having realized that she made a horrid error and is just too glad to be
    given another chance.
    
    I said before and I can't say it enough.  You can't MAKE her want to
    come back, if he 'neutralizes' the neighbor she will find someone ELSE,
    the supply is endless!  
    
    Force won't work, no one owns anybody (regardless of what some seem to
    think and act like).  This should not be resolved by bashing her lover
    over the head with a ball bat and dragging her home by the hair.
    She won't stay home long, and he will be in court for assault and
    battery, or worse.
    
    Other than taking appropriate steps to protect his kids emotional well
    being and his finances IMO he should sit back and see what happens.
    Of course while remaining willing to listen to her if she opens up.
    
    But HE is the one who must decide what he can live with.  Some feel
    that once infidality has occured that is IT they want a divorce,
    so be it.    Others are more tolerant and are willing to wait and
    see if the errant spouse will come around.  But it takes time and 
    UNDERSTANDING and patience and above all no fault finding.
    
    Jeff
    
    

First of all, I want to thank you for being so open an honest.  There are lots
of people here at Digital that have relationship and marriage problems, but few
as willing to admit it as you have been.

I can imagine how hard it must be for you to go through this.

Please go to some 12-step meetings.  They are often *very* helpful in such
matters.  Which program, though ?  Here's a brief list the way I understand it:

	AA -	If you drink and believe it may be a factor in your pain

	Alanon- If your wife or someone else drinks, and you believe it may
		be a factor in your pain

	CODA -	If you feel your pain is related to your always putting other
		people's well being at a higher priority of your own

	SLAA -	If you believe your own sexual issues or behavior is a factor in
		your pain, including either private behavior, obsessions with
		one person or many people, anonymous sex, pornography, 900
		numbers, or lack of sex, or a history of nonworking relationships

Let me know if you have trouble finding meeting lists or want more information.

Reading about your wife kissing that man in front of your children shocked me.

I hope you get the help you need.

/Eric

    Sounds to me, as well sung bt BB King, "You got some outside help." And
    I will second Fred's suggestion. And I would remember this, this. Some
    people want to hold onto things that once were when they are no longer.
    And because life is an adverserial game, I would go forth for an
    attorney FAST, do not pass go, and do not collect $200! Its her call,
    she's a big girl and if she wants her independence. GIVE her what she
    wants!

    In some states like, Maine, you can charge him, the friendly
    neighborhood slime, for interfering with the workings of a marriage.
    And take his property. Too bad, like mine, he had lake front property.
    I just missed the boat by 15 days to have the Maine camp.:) 

So I can't tell you how to save it.  I can tell you that most of the advice
you have received here is good.  Especially those pieces which advise you to
"be aggressive" and "document everything".

If the marriage is going down the tubes despite your best efforts (and IMHO
it already has gone a long way down) then all you can do is protect youself
and the children.  

Course you could do like I did with my first marriage.  Let guilt drive you,
give up everything including the kids.  Then, 8 years later after the kids 
have been abused enough, they will leave her, come live with you and you 
can watch another marriage go down the tubes.  Now I am starting over for 
the second time, paying of enormous debts, and trying to help my daughters
get a start in life despite the results of the trauma from their mother's
abuse.  It sucks big time.

Contact me (Jim Campbell) if you would like to talk (I'm in elf)

80)

    "Everything" depends on how he feels about her.  I (in my advice) am
    making the asumption that he wants to save the marriage because he
    loves her and is willing to bend for her a bit.  
    
    If he has lost his love for her, or has had it with the affair, then by
    all means go for the neighbors financial throat, and his spouses
    finances, and get a divorce.
    
    I see lots of aggression and anger in the replies by other noters.
    I think that the basenoter should be aware that aggression and anger is
    less likely to repair the relationship with his wife than understanding
    and patience.
    
    I am also making the assumption that his wife is in the affair because
    of unmet emotional needs rather than out of spite or because she is
    trying to hurt him.
    
    So, I say once again, take care of your legal/financial affairs
    (cover your axx) and assume a non judgemental tone in your relationship
    with her.  Also making behavior limits clear would help... such as no
    carrying on in the sight of your kids or you.
    
    Based on the info you gave, that is how I would handle this assuming
    that you want her back.  The advice to go to a counselor WITH or
    without her I agree with too.
    
    Jeff

    Instead of documenting certain things and taking pictures, you
    may want to hire a detective to watch her and do this for you.
    Also do as others said by closing her out of joint credit cards.
    
    I may have aggression in my reply, but who would actually put up
    with their spouse kissing a "friend" on the lips and snuggling?
    Give me a break.  She can't be making it more apparent that she
    doesn't want her husband around.  If I ever saw my SO acting like
    that he would wish he never layed eyes on me.  Marriage is for
    two people, not to be shared with anyone else.  Too many people
    think it's their fault because the spouse cheats.  Bull*hit.  If
    they want to do it, they're going to do it.  If she didn't think she
    was getting attention, she should have acted on it with her husband,
    not a neighbor.  It takes two to make a marriage work...maybe the
    basenoter had no idea she wanted more attention???
    
    
    

    Detectives cost $$$$$.  Lots of $$$$$.

    It is nice to see some people here with compashion. But where was the
    her compashion? Next door with the other man? Perhaps with one of those
    self help books for the wymin of the 90's. AAAh! I know! Its on Ophra! 
    It would be wounderful for things to workout and to be rosey and nice
    again. Base noter, you can do what ever you want. Its your marriage,
    and your call. And if you wind up sleeping in a car or on a park bench
    while making your handsome wadge here a Dec. You can tell the folks
    with compashion how wounderful life can really be. Or you can start
    thinking that the honeymoon is over and start to drink that cup of
    reality. I was like you lost, my daughter was parentally kidnapped and
    removed from this state. I had all those lovely compashionate folks
    talk to me. Even got my hand slapped for everything they could think of
    including the stars being in retrograde. Beats me why men and women
    look for greener pastures. But, because I took some back bone, and did
    something about it before it got outta hand, I can say things of
    success. Like I have custody, and I get child support, and I have the
    marrital home. And yes, I might sound bitter to those with compashion.
    But lad, many of these people with compashion have not really walked
    the walk that they can talk about. Like any good song on the record,
    when its over baby. Its over. And the sooner you can draw that
    conclusion the sooner you can avoid life on $28 a week in a park. It
    gets cold here in New Hampshire in the winter. Trust me, slept in an
    alley over it too avoiding cops, and the ex as I had to prove that
    beyond a reason of any doubt, that the ex was living with a self
    admitted child molester as I have proven. And its real cold, and it
    snows real snow, and cops will really arrest you sorry ragged ass for
    being in the wrong place with the right motives. 
    
    Peace, Love, and Compashion with Handguns
    

    re compassion.

    I used to think like that.  However, the bottom line is that the
    only "weapon" that anyone has in any relationship is the withdrawal
    of _their_ love, compassion, and support.  If the loss of your love
    and support are not important enough to to the other person to make
    it worth trying to work out the problems, then the relationship is
    stone dead.  The sooner you admit that to yourself and start taking
    care of yourself the better.

    It the other party has a lack of personal integrity, and they
    learn that they cannot loose no matter what they do, then you're
    scr*wed.  If she's already talked to a lawyer, then she already
    knows, or thinks, that if she dumps you she will get the kids,
    the car, the house, the lion's share of the marital assets, and
    "child support".  And she thinks that there isn't diddley you can
    do about it.  Not necessarily true, but you'd better start taking 
    care of our a** NOW or it will be.

    Compassion is only valid when the other party is ready for compassion.
    If you let it known in no uncertain terms that "its ok honey, you can
    go bop everything in town and I'll be right here waiting for you to
    come give me the leftovers", then you are throwing yourself at the
    mercy of someone who has no mercy.  I knew a guy like that once.
    He ended up blowing his brains out.

    fred();

    re last few.  Before you finish jumping on me for expressing  some
    compassion don't be so sure I havn't been in a similiar position as the
    basenoter.  
    
    Someone had to balance the hate I see in this string.  So I have been
    attempting to do just that, balance the hate with a different
    perspective.  I will take that back, no, no one HAD to balance it,
    but I choose to.
    
    Never once in my replies have I implied that he should let himself be
    walked all over, or put in a position he can't or shouldn't handle.
    I have said he must SET LIMITS to what he will tolerate regarding
    her behavior, only HE can determine what those limits must be.
    Of course she is free to IGNORE those limits at the increased risk
    of losing her marriage.
    
    As .21 put it so well, the only weapon he has (other than violence
    and the legal system) is the withdrawal of his love, compassion and
    support.  If she doesn't care about those things then its a lost cause
    already.  I assume that he wants her to stay with him as a loving wife
    loyal to only him as it should be.  SHE has to want to do that, he 
    can't make her.  He can fight legally, and physically with her lover
    but that won't change her attitude which IMO is the bottom line if
    he wants her to come back to him.  I did not say he should crawl to 
    her.
    
    He has a right to expect her loyalty and a monagamous relationship
    with HIM only.  But he isn't getting it, is he?  I am trying to give
    some ideas as to what might help bring that back, which, is what he
    asked for, right?
    
    I know others have been burned in their relationships with their
    significant others and people are answering this string from their OWN
    experiences.  We would all be well advised to remember that that is
    where others in this string are coming from in their replies.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    Sorry if It seemed that I was flaming at you. But the bottom line, how
    can one give advise if one has not been successful at the subject? The
    only thing that many know is the latter of the two as in how to help
    lift the gun from the divorce holster. 
    
    To the base noter, we can only give our remorse, our empithy, and most
    of all the dark side of it. For many of us have walked that lane.
    
    I was once told that If you wish to be successful at anything you talk
    to those who have been successful at their endivers. You would not talk
    about being a business zar from a street bum. Nor would you talk about
    how big and strong you can get from weight training from a pencile
    neck. Is there a way back from the brink? Only if there is a way. And I
    guess that is what is being told. There is no way. There is no hope
    unless there is that mirical of light that dawns upon her. But she is
    in that frame of mind that says she doesn't care. How do you care if
    you don't? How do you make one change their mind if their mind is
    already made? To me, I think that there is only one way now, and that
    is to find a good attorney and start doing what it takes to be strong
    for himself and his children. For if he is not strong, then the
    children cannot make the transistion to a new beginning very well
    either.

>    Someone had to balance the hate I see in this string.

 I see it more as fear and concern that if the basenoters doesn't act decisively
now, he's going to be doing alot of noting in non-custodial parents real soon.
And be a victim of the divorce system to boot.

    re .22

    Ditto George from (.23).

>    Someone had to balance the hate I see in this string.  So I have been

    I take exception of your use of the term "hate" in this context.  I
    cannot speak for George or for JimC, or anyone else, but for myself
    what I have entered is _hard_ earned experience.  I could have entered 
    the same .0 about 11 years ago.  Other people tried to tell me the same
    things then, but I wouldn't listen.  I was _determined_ that I would 
    save the marriage no matter _what_ the cost.  Even if it killed me 
    trying.  It almost did.  I finally got it pounded into my head that 
    there really was _nothing_ I could do by myself to save the marriage.
    It takes two to make a marriage.  It only takes one to make a 
    divorce.  Sorry if that sounds hard, but that's life.

    Maybe there is one way to save the marriage, but from my observations,
    this doesn't work over the long haul either.  That is to just lay
    low and say nothing while she does _whatever_ she d**n well pleases,
    and hope that someday she'll recognize what a "nice guy" he is (there
    was a note in the old MN about "nice guys") and start to respect him 
    again.  What kind of marriage is that?  What kind of _life_ is that?  My 
    brother tried that.  She finally divorced him anyway because "he is 
    such a whimp".

    The only hope here is that if she still thinks enough of his love and
    the marriage that she is willing to work on the problem if she knows
    her actions will cost her his love and companionship.  If she don't,
    the relationship is stone   cold   dead.


    fred();

    �I see it more as fear and concern that if the basenoters doesn't act decisively
    �now, he's going to be doing alot of noting in non-custodial parents real soon.
    �And be a victim of the divorce system to boot.
    
    Yes, he could join many of them as they wish they could see their
    children again. Just about like I did. As in someday when she is 18 and
    decides to look for her father. I hope that .0 does something real
    soon. Snooze and loose. 

    re .0, are you the Bob Brower I worked with at MOO about 14 years ago? 
    If so, are you talking about the same wife you had then?
    
    Not that I knew either of you that well, but if it is you, and it is
    her, she never struck me as the type of person who would do something
    totally out of selfishness, or cruelty.
    
    I'm sorry you're having problems.  But after reading some of the angry
    replies, from men, in this topic, I feel a need to point out that there
    are two sides to every story, and we've only heard one side here.
    
    Jeff, I appreciated your replies.
    
    Lorna
    

Jeff, I am sure you were not specifically addressing me.  Nonetheless, I take
humbrage at your statement that people are expressing hate here.  Frankly, I
don't see that.  What I see is a large number of people relating their
experiences and expressing the hurt and anger that resulted therefrom.  I
think the bottomline message here is:  this looks like it is probably a lost
cause and you had better see to pretecting yourself and your children if you
wish to salvage anything at all from this situation.

Personally, withdrawing your love and involvement as a measure to try to  get
someone else to realize how important your love is, smacks of manipulative
codependent games (IMHO - yep, been there, done that) and those are almost
certainly doomed to fail.

jimc (recovering co-dependent)

    re JimC

    I may need to explain myself a little further on the business of
    "withdrawing".  You have to have two sets of plans.  One set is
    what you do if you withdraw and she is not willing to work on the 
    problems.  You have to be ready and able to accept that possibility.
    If you aren't, then yes it is just a game.  If you withdraw and
    she isn't willing to work on the problems, then you have done the
    best thing anyway.  The other set of plans is what to do if she
    does want to work on the problems.  You have to be ready and able
    to accept either alternative.  This is just another variation of
    the "If you love someone let them go.  If they love you, they'll
    return.  If they don't, you haven't lost anything".

    The alternative is to put up with the b.s. and hope that someday
    "she'll come to her senses".  My observations tell me that
    this is much more unlikely than the first scenario.  For every case
    I've seen where this worked, I've seen ten where he eventually gets 
    served papers as he leaves work and he can't go home again, and I've
    seen a hundred that while he is trying to be a "nice guy" her lawyer
    is drawing up papers to screw him out of everything he has and most
    of what he will have.  People usually won't change unless there is 
    some outside pressure.  In the first case if you "loose", then you 
    get on with your life.  You haven't really lost anything, because 
    there was really nothing left for you to loose.  In the second case,
    if you "loose" (they just keep doing the same ol' %$#) you've condemned 
    yourself to a life  of hell (for as long as it's convenient to _them_ 
    anyway).

    fred();

    
    Firstly, I apologise tfor not introducing myself formally (Ive been
    read only for some time now) but the string seemed too important..
    
    I am sorry you are experiencing problems in your marriage.  
    
    There have been many replies about what action you should take next, 
    such as see a lawyer - fast, which I would disagree with.   
    
    In my opinion you need to address the reason behind your wifes
    behaviour.   I know you said that you had a happy marriage for many
    years, but was your partner of the same opinion?
    
    You have looked to this conference for some support and guidance,
    perhaps your wife looked to your neighbour for something similar. 
    Maybe you were just *too* close and she needed some space to think
    and someone outside of your marriage who would listen.  If you accused
    her of seeking something more than friendship, you could have
    subconsciously forced her to behave in a way that would normally be
    alien to her (the kind of "well if he's going to accuse me, I might as
    well do it" attitude).   
    
    The only way forward, in my opinion, is to talk with your wife to
    identify when the problems started,  only then can you address each one
    of them.  It may be painful, and both of you may hear things you don't
    like, but in the long run, if you really want to save your
    relationship, it will be worth it.
    
    My heart goes out to you and I hope it works out.
    
    

    Forgot to put my name at the bottom of my note...
    
    
    Jackie

    Why yes, you could aproach her. Send her and her new beau a rsvp.
    Invite the neighborhood to meet the new couple will be in your
    neighborhood breaking up marriages. Yes, Its a lovely day in our
    neighborhood. Would you like to be my neighbor?:)
    
    Or how about this? .0, the soon to be ex, and the new found beau going
    to and encounter group for marriages. Discuss the pros and cons of new
    and used marriages. Why the stars could be in retrograde! Gee. I rather
    use Colt, Smith, and Remengton to encounter someplace in this.

          I'm sorry for not reentering a reply sooner. I work 3rd shift on
    weekends currently. Yes Lorna this is the Bob you used to work with.
    What started this whole mess was 2 years ago this guy had a serious car
    accident. He spent a number of weeks in a coma and months in the VA
    hosptital receiving therapy. My wife being a very helpful person
    visited him periodically in the hospital. When he cam home she was
    there a lot to help him as initially he was in a wheelchair. Now he's
    able to walk with the aid of a cane. Whereas Terry works 2nd shift part
    time and I was working days it stood to reason he was there and I
    wasn't. She said she could share things with him that she wasn't comfy
    sharing with me. Yes it does take two to tango. Oftimes because I
    didn't respond to questions the way she would've liked she'd become
    angry and withdraw. She'd never give any feedback on the why's and
    wherefores. So I was in a position where it was difficult to become
    sensitive to the response she was expecting. I realize this is a guy
    thing with a lot of us.
    
          She's filled out all of the paperwork for a divorce. At least she
    finally sat down and talked to me. Bottom line to her was that I so
    overreacted to this other man she feels I'm a monster. I have been
    documenting and have gotten myself a good attorney. One thing she made
    as crystal clear as possible is that she's never slept with the man. 
    She admits to everything else and said thay are very close now. She's
    leaning towards a no-fault where everything is negotiated up front. I'm
    considering countering for mental anguish and attempting to get a years
    trial separation with her setting up housekeeping elsewhere. FWIW she's
    shut her best girlfriend out completely also. She told her that my
    reaction to what had been going on was reasonable and what the hell had
    she expected. AT present she's opted for joint custody. I'll try to let
    you all know what my attorney feels my options are.
    
             Thnx all 
    
             Bob

 I feel for ya, Bob. What a nightmare.

Sounds like you are taking the appropriate steps, Bob.  
Stay calm and pro-active, be open to possibilities.

jimc

    Mine told me she never slept with the Maine man too. But when we sent
    her the inter-ogg's she finally admitted to it. So, I rather doubt if
    there is smoke there is no fire.

    Hi Bob,  I'm really sorry this is happening to the two of you.  It's
    such a shame things have worked out this way.  I wish you all the best. 
    Hope things eventually work out, with as little pain as possible for
    each of you, regardless of the outcome.  It's always nice for the kids
    when divorced parents can be on good terms.
    
    Lorna
    
    ps - re .36, George, don't say that to him!  Just because yours did, doesn't
    mean his did.  They're both nice people.  It would be great if they
    could get through this without becoming enemies, you know.

    Thanks for the compliment Lorna.
    
    re. many:  Hate etc.  Your points about concern and anger are well
    taken, and I can understand and see what you mean.  
    
    Comments such as this give me the impression I was speaking of:
    
    > .............rather use Smith & Wesson. or words to that effect.
    
    
    
    Bob. I am glad she has come to you and made her intentions clear.
    Be careful with the custody part.... this is the part where I begin
    to get MY hackes up.  SHE developed the other relationship and now
    SHE wants the kids too.  "Fine" if she wants to play around but I
    am not comfortable with her having the cake and eating it too UNLESS
    the KIDS want it that way too.
    
    Jeff

    	I'm still not convinced of her sincerity. Anything that sounds too
    good to be true.....usually is. I find her excuse that a new man being
    there when her husband wasn't, the new man not being a sexual partner,
    and Bob being a monster for not understanding a huggy-kissy
    relationship a bit too much to swallow. 
    	So she's happy with the new guy and you're expected to be a
    gentleman and step aside so he can take your wife, stick you with child
    support and make your life miserable..?? In a pig's ass!!!!! Stick it
    to her hard and make her life as miserable she wants yours to be. Make
    her support two lifestyles......you didn't screw around on her, you
    didn't ask her to sleep in a separate room, you aren't sucking face
    with a woman in front of your kids........  This isn't an even playing
    field Bob.......she's getting everything her way because you're doing
    everything her way.......do something for yourself before you agree to
    anything. 
    	I'm not really saying that you should be vindictive, ...well, maybe
    I am.......but as I see it, all the pluses are on her side of the
    ledger. Fight for custody, make her pay support. If this new man is so
    important to her happiness and well being let them have each other, but
    make it on your terms as much as possible.....
    
    Avoe......
    
    Ken 

    Seems to me ::HADDOCK and ::GILMAN took that 12-step program
    I've been hearing sooooo many bad things about.
    
    You fight for sole custody of the child and mental anguish
    compensation, and don't back down. The worse that can happen 
    is you'll receive joint.
    
	Remember...everything happens for a reason.  
    
    I personally hope you'll learn to open up more to your next SO.
    The same thing may happen again if you don't learn to express yourself.
    
    Best Regards,
    
    BRENDA
    
    RE. ::STHILAIRE...Sorry, all the replies to this note AREN'T MEN!
    unless someone gave me a sex change in my sleep

    re .40, gee, I'm sorry I didn't notice you're a woman.  But, it's not
    like I actually *saw* you and mistook you for a man.  I just didn't
    remember that anyone had signed a note with a female name.
    
    Lorna
    

    The worse that will happen is that you will not get what you want.
    But.... If you try sometime. You just might find, you get what you
    need. 

    Be careful what you pray for.  You might get it.

Bob, giving any kind of advice in this situation is difficult and potentially
hazardous - for you. But, drawing from my own experiences I would offer you 
this ...

If it's possible don't get bitter and don't let bitterness drive your actions 
or help you make your choices. The worst thing you can do is to get violent. 
The hardest thing to do is to try and accept your wifes choices. She has a 
life too and marriage isn't a permit of ownership.

You're all loosers in this; you, your wife, and your kids. Don't treat the 
divorce process like it's a game of monopoly. The only winners will be the 
lawyers.

The next months will be like a nightmare and there is no waking up.  You'll 
get through it, your wife will be your ex-wife and because of the kids 
you'll still have to deal with each other. Just keep it in mind.

I won't wish you luck because in this situation a man must make his own luck -
so get busy.

- Paul.

    re.39 I agree with you Ken.  It all sounds a little too smooth
    to me. If she choose to become intimate (emotionally and to
    some extent physically) with another man and therefore unfaithful
    to you, she must pay the cost. Therefore I do not see why you 
    should have to leave your home, pay child support and not live 
    with your children. She is the one that decided to not work on the 
    marriage to make it work.  At some point she gave up but at that 
    point she should have filed for a divorce not after she has established 
    a bond with another man. I really do not think you should be penalized 
    any further.  As an adult we are responsible for our actions - make her
    pay.  
    
    /Kim

 	"If she choose to become intimate (emotionally and to
    	some extent physically) with another man and therefore unfaithful
    	to you.." 

Kim, you really don't know enough about the relationship between Bob, his wife 
the neighbour and what or what hasn't taken place. Before being so judgemental 
don't you think we should hear her story.

	"...she must pay the cost."  

I bet she is Kim. If somebody's been married for 13+ years she's probably
going through hell. The sad thing is that she's taking Bob and the Kids there
too. If Bob's wife is a responsible person, and there's no evidence to think
otherwise, I expect she's tormented with worries, guilt and lots more.

	"She is the one that decided to not work on the marriage to make 
	it work."  

You don't know that so I wouldn't sit in judgement on this point either. It 
strikes me that to have stayed married for 13+ years she's been doing something.

- Paul. 

    	Paul....you're making judgements and telling Kim not to. We all
    make our judgements on the information we're provided. Based on our
    experience, knowledge and reasoning, we make value judgements. Bob has
    seen fit to give us two separate bits of information posted in two
    separate notes. Kim and I have come to a conclusion as to what our
    response wouls be and agree to some extent as to that conclusion and
    what we believe the resultant action should be.
    
    	I think we both realize that everyone will hurt from this, it's
    just that she has lessened her pain by finding a support mechanism.
    That support mechanism is the new man. Before filing her papers, she
    caused Bob pain, caused the kids confusion and pain. She may have
    caused herself "some" pain but apparently not enough to not prevent
    displays of affection to another man in front of the children. What the
    hell kind of message is she trying to send them? That it's ok to
    embarrass and humiliate their father? Sorry, I don't buy into that for
    a second.
    
    	As to being civil....I think Bob has done that. *I* am not that
    type of person. *I* would have probably react a bit more angrily about
    her trip to NH including another man. I would have told her to go and
    she would not have been allowed back. I would have said on the first night
    that 'our' bedroom became 'her' bedroom that her next bedroom would be in 
    another house. If *she* chose to sleep elsewhere, so be it, but I would
    not accept her terms to vacate, and if she chose to leave, I would
    immediately have asked her if she was contemplating divorce, not
    leaving or separating, divorce. All cards on the table is *my* way of
    dealing with situations. 
    
    	From the information provided, I would say that this marriage is
    not worth saving. Bob has tried counseling, he's admitted attempting to
    make her more inclusive in his life and she has rejected it. 
    
    	Now she's trying to be the level headed civil person who will prey
    on the nice guy and twist him into a knot. Oh sure, joint
    custody.....they'll stay with mom and dad can support them and the
    disabled new guy around the house....what the heck, he's a shmuck but
    they won't say that to his face. He's a nice guy and he'll feel so much
    guilt about the kids, that she'll have a pretty decent life untill the
    last one gets outta college and then she'll sue for more alimony to
    insure the lifestyle to which she has been accustomed. Sound familiar?
    Nice guys finish last, defensive positioning in a divorce equates to a
    losing position. You can be nice to a point, but make your divorce
    position an offensive one....be the attacker not the victim. 
    
    	She's the one who wants this to end. She's the one with a new
    partner. She's the one expecting you to be complient........stun her
    and her lawyer......go for the throat!
    
    	As someone said before....make your own luck. Then get on with your
    life. You'll feel good about yourself.
    
    Ken   

    re .46, Paul, I agree with you.  Some people are far too ready to be
    judgemental.  As you said, there's two sides to every story.  (Besides,
    I worked in the same building as this woman before, and, if anything,
    she was considered to be nicer and more responsible than the average
    person, at that time.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .47, I don't believe people should make their own luck by trampling
    all over other people.  
    
    You know something?  my ex-husband and I have been on good terms ever
    since our divorce.  Want to know why?  We were both willing to forgive
    each other for a few things, instead of going directly for the jugular,
    as you advocate.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .50, well, I admit, I haven't seen either of them for years.  
    
    I hate to see a dog get upset, myself, so, at least we agree on
    something!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    WRT: "There's two sides to a story."
    
    Actually, I think A Don Henley lyric says it best: 
    
    	"There's three sides to every story,
    	 Yours, mine, and the cold hard truth."
                     
    We don't know the whole story; some people here have made suggestions,
    based on their own painful experience, that Bob protect his interests.
    Others, coming from a different place, have suggested communication and
    compassion.  Both sides are useful, as long as we all remember that we
    really don't know the whole story, and never will.

   .40> Seems to me ::HADDOCK and ::GILMAN took that 12-step program
    I've been hearing sooooo many bad things about.
    
    What does this mean?  It sounds like an insult.
    
    Jeff

    Ken, it sounds to me as if your making some assumptions which may not
    be true, such as:
    
    What makes you so sure she is TRYING to hurt Bob and the kids?  I 
    agree that the RESULT is hurting them and that certainly counts.
    
    There is a big difference in my book between TRYING to hurt others
    vs. being so 'weak' 'selfish' 'out of control' (pick your own term)
    that you can't or won't control yourself to act appropriately.
    She may be 'in love' and too infactuated with the other guy to be
    able to SEE her own actions as inappropriate as they are.
    
    Sure she is still responsible.
    
    For some what she has done already is enough cause to dump her. Fine,
    so be it if that is what has to be done.
    
    Sounds to me as if there is enough pain for all of them in this so that
    its quite unnecessary to DELIBRETELY take any actions which cause
    anyone any more pain that is already occuring.
    
    Some believe there 'is' no vengence.  I am one of them.  By that I mean
    that any attempt to hurt another, no matter how justified, will bounce
    back and hurt you too.  
    
    For some, its worth it.  Hit out when your hurt, it feels so GOOD to
    hit back!  Fine.  Then go for it.  I just not sure she INTENDED to
    hurt anybody, and in my book that counts.
    
    Jeff
    

    Let me clairfy the difference between justice and vengence. I said
    there is no vengence which works out for the good of all.... but
    there certainly is justice.  Seems to me that in the long term people
    pretty much get what they deserve and that individual attemps to
    hurt others (for its OWN sake) not for justice or self defense wind
    up hurting the 'hurter' as much as the 'hurtee'.
    
    This discussion bothers me when I hear people say or imply that Bob
    should TRY and hurt her emotionally for its OWN sake.  As I said,
    there is already enough pain for all of them in this without any of
    them adding any more to GET BACK at her.  She WILL find out in the
    LONG run whether she is doing the right thing for them all.  If she
    finds out it was a mistake (in the future) and she contributed to the
    break up of her marriage and hurting her kids she will have the
    remainder of her life to regret it.  
    
    Jeff

    re Jeff

    Another hard lesson that I learned was that the requirements for 
    being a "nice person" do not include putting up with someone
    else's bovine fertilizer.

    fred();

    re .57, you are assuming that there are no fair minded women in the
    world.  There are a few of us.  When my ex-husband and I split up
    (after a long and mixed-bag marriage (good times/bad times), I finally
    left him for another man), we wrote up our own divorce agreement.  I
    gave him physical custody of our daughter, plus the house we had built
    together, and in return he gave me unlimited visiting hours and refused
    child support payments.  (BTW, he also asked me to reconsider and stay,
    but it was too late.)  
    
    We stayed friends, and were even roommates for 3 yrs. at one point. 
    
    But, the point is, not all women are out to screw over their husbands
    during divorces, and I don't think it's fair to assume that a woman is
    without knowing anything about her.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .56 remove my rose colored glasses.... met sit on their tushes and
    do their guilt trip compassion bit..... 

    Many of you are going for the jugular right from the start because
    you have been hurt in your relationships.  I understand that...
    do unto others BEFORE they do unto you which is what I hear again
    and again in this string.  

    Guilt.  Where have I implied or said Bob should feel guilty, or any
    of you for that matter?

    Sit on tush.  Again, I have said to Bob, do what you have to do to
    protect yourself and the kids, which included setting limits on her
    behavior when around him or the kids.

    Rose glasses, rose glasses?! they got broken years ago in one of MY
    relationships. 

    I think you perceive my attempts to tone the vindictiveness down in this
    string as naive' on my part.  I wasn't born yesterday, I have watched
    what people can and do do to each other for fifty years.
    
    I just get so TIRED of watching people beat on each other for the hurts
    they have suffered.  Watching them shoot each other, beat on each other
    etc.  When will we ever learn?
    
    I suppose I sound like I think I am perfect, have all the answers and
    all, hell NO I don't have all the answers, am far from perfect myself.
    
    But, as I am trying to do, for those of you who 'get off' on getting
    back at your real and imagined hurts, (to coin a cliche) GROW UP!
    
    Eventually you may learn that the do unto others before they do unto
    you routine has to be APPROPRIATELY and carefully followed to minimize
    the hurt to all parties.  Oh, thats right, the point IS to hurt the
    other party.  I forgot.
    
    
    Jeff

    re .60

>    the hurt to all parties.  Oh, thats right, the point IS to hurt the
>    other party.  I forgot.

    Wrong Jeff.  The point is to try to protect yourself and your kids
    while there is still time.  I (and I think I can speak also for 
    George here) am not talking just from my own experience but from
    working with many fathers and non-custodial parents in the same
    situation.  For every case like this I've seen that has worked
    out, I've seen a dozen or more where the man tried to be a "nice guy" 
    and do nothing and hope she would eventually come around, and then 
    find out it's too late and they've been screwed out of everything 
    they  have and most of what they will have for the next 20 years.

    There's nothing that says that just because you get a lawyer and
    prepare for the worst, that you can't hope for the best and still try
    to save the marriage if the opportunity arises.  I've just seen 
    too many men not be prepared.  Then once the judge's hammer comes
    down, you're screwed.

    Being open minded means keeping your mind open to _both_ possibilities.

    fred();

    �The point is to try to protect yourself and your kids while there is
    �still time. 
    
    And because time is not on .0's side. It becomes the most inportant
    thing in his life. For if he is not strong for himself and his
    children. He will not/never keep those things that are of value. Like
    compassion, like fairness. He has a team working against him already.
    As in this neighbor who is might be looking for a comfortable life
    style that he will never half to work again. Thanks to the compassion
    and pay check of .0. And that dear Jeff is the cup of reality that you
    have not drank yet. And maybe someday you will. But you have to have
    been there, or be there or have seen enough of it to understand it. But
    as they wymin say,"You just don't get it."
    
    Peace

.39> So she's happy with the new guy and you're expected to be a
.39> gentleman and step aside so he can take your wife, stick you with child
.39> support and make your life miserable..?? In a pig's ass!!!!! Stick it

    Like Spock said to his wife-to-be's new beau :

    "After a while, you may find that wanting is more desireable than
     having.  It is not logical, it just is."


    If she wants him and he wants her, what else can you do?

          Geez these lawyers are hard to get a hold of. The one I'd chosen
    to deal with wanted me to belly up the bar and just go with the flow.
    I've got an interview with a new attorney on Monday and a reference for
    another lawyer should that one not pan out. She laid her financial plan
    on me yesterday. Zowie she was well prepared when she talked to her
    lawyer. She wants the house ,of course, $350 a week plus $500 a month for
    a parochial school 2 of our kids will be attending next year. Gee I bet
    she knew when my middle child was taking the entrance exam that she had
    intentions of ending our marriage! 
          I finally told her very plainly that there're no guarantees that I'll
    be on the outside looking in. she could be the one that gets booted. She's
    now  coming under a lot of pressure from her family urging her to cut the
    crap and try to reconcile. At this stage I'm still not 100% sure what her  
    irreconcilable differences are.

      Bob

    	It may not fit your life style, but one broken marriage I know went
    as follows. He sent a *large* cheque to the wife whenever he felt like
    it, typically every six months. He was not trying to duck out of his
    responsabilities - he was paid on completion of a contract and sent his
    (ex) wife a share. He also paid air fares for his wife and kids to
    spend two weeks every year with him in Cyprus or Greece.
    
    	For the rest of the time the only way anyone knew which country he
    was in was from the postage stamps on his letters. Most of the time it
    was somewhere in the Middle East. I doubt if any court could have made
    him pay more than he believed was fair.
    
    	Now obviously you would be paying the $500 per month, plus a lot
    more, for your wife and kids if you stay together. If you split up can
    you change your life style and still manage to pay what you believe is
    fair? If so then this could be a good basis for negociation. The less
    you spend between you on lawyers fees the more you will have to split
    between you if you eventually separate. Sack the lawyers and talk.
    
    	You should bear in mind that I have a different cultural
    background. Lawyers are parasites on society that are used only if the
    government gives you no alternative. My sister spent very little on
    lawyers' fees for her divorce since there was a lawyer in her church
    group that gave her advice. Her ex-husband has a strong aversion to the
    legal proffesion and didn't even consider employing a lawyer. There was
    no question of alimony payments since he spent most of the next year in
    prison for fraud. He refused to use a lawyer in his defence.
    
    	Oh, and another cultural difference occurs to me. Most divorces are
    fairly friendly. Several of our friends have been divorced, but I can't
    think of any where we couldn't invite both of the couple to the same
    party. My sister is an exception in this case - her ex-husband might
    not get time off to attend a party.

re.47 , Ken

	"We all make our judgements on the information we're provided. 
	Based on our experience, knowledge and reasoning, we make value 
	judgements."

Agreed. Based on my experience I know there's two sides to the story here - 
you do too. So I'd like to hear hers before I go for her jugular - not after.

	"Bob has seen fit to give us two separate bits of information 
	posted in two separate notes."

Exactly. Bob - double underline that - has provided us with two separate 
bits of information. So we all conclude she's the bitch, Bob's on the 
receiving end, go for her jugular. Maybe you're right but I have to ask 
myself questions like; where has Bob been as these events have been unfolding ?
what role is he putting himself in ? has he been active or passive ? what 
actions has he taken ? 

	"We see more and more passivity in men, but also more and more
	naivete. The naive man feels pride in being attacked. If his wife
	or girlfriend, furious, shouts that he is "chauvinist", a "sexist",
	a "man" he doesn't fight back, but just takes it. He opens his shirt
	so that she can see more clearly where to put the lances. He ends
	with three or four javelins sticking out of his body, and blood
	running all over the floor. If he were a bullfighter, he would 
	remain where he was when the bull charges, would not even wave his
	shirt or turn his body, and the horn would go directly in. After
	each fight friends have to carry him on their shoulders to the
	hospital.

	He feels, as he absorbs attacks, that he is doing the brave and 
	advanced thing; he will surely be able to recover somewhere in
	isolation. A woman, so mysterious and superior, has given him
	attention. To be attacked by someone you love - what could
	be more wonderful ?"

					(Bly, Robert. Iron John, P.63.)
 
That sums up the situation for me. What was Bob thinking as he approached his 
neighbour or when his wife smooched and kissed on the couch with another man. 
That he was doing the advanced thing. I wouldn't have let the situation 
develop so far but if it had then my wife would have been packing her bags
where she found her clothes - on the street - and I would have told my kids 
that it's not normal to kiss other men in an intimate way.

My advice to Bob - don't be naive, start reacting, start defending yourself. 
You have two feet of your own - stand on them.

	"All cards on the table is *my* way of dealing with situations." 

Bullseye. My sentiments exactly.

- Paul.

    re:Paul...
    
    	I believe she put the cards on the table......the house, the kids,
    and $125 per week support. 
    
    	Now is the time to tearup the cards and deal your own hand......
    
    	*I'm* taking the house, *You* will pay me $500 a month because
    *I'M* taking the kids and *you* can go live with your new found love.
    *You* will call me prior to coming to *my* house, *You* will have
    visitation based on *my* schedule......
    
    	In any case...I'd never agree to giving up real estate. A man I 
    know completed a divorce and made the agreement that if his ex moved,
    the house must be sold and they would split the profit 50-50. She could
    not rent the house to anyone or rent or lease any portion of the house
    to anyone. She could not let anyone live inthe house for free because
    it would cause wear and tear. Finally, if she remarried, the house had
    to be sold. As is typical, she found a boyfriend, then went back to the
    court asking that the above be struck from the agreement. The answer
    was no. The boyfriend moved in, the ex-huuby hired a private
    investigator.....for a month!!!! $200 a day plus expenses!!!!($10,000)
    The guy took videos, still shots with timers, for a running 30 day
    period. Petioned the court for the house.....judge asked about the
    kids. He said he'd take them. They argued.......Judgement: Sell the
    house immediately. Fortunately it was 1988 and prices were high. They
    made about $150,000 on the house. Two years later...she's broke and
    back in court wanting more support. He invested his, made a bundle and
    she wanted half of that!!!! Judge said no. He has the kids now...... 
    
	A divorce is never final....it just goes on and on. Make the best
    deal for yourself NOW! 
    
    K

.56>    Another hard lesson that I learned was that the requirements for 
>    being a "nice person" do not include putting up with someone
>    else's bovine fertilizer.

Fred, 

I could have replied to many others of your replies, but this seemed clearest.

I don't see anything in what Jeff wrote that would disagree with your statement
above.  

I think you and Jeff agree on the two main points:

	Bob needs to act now to protect himself and the kids

	Bob should remain open to the possibility that the marriage
	can be saved on terms acceptable to him


There are others in this string who have advanced a third point

	Give her (and the neighbor) as much pain as possible

and I think Jeff is reacting against that, but I have not heard support
for this third point from you.

I also think the third point is extremely dangerous at best.  Protecting 
himself and the children seems more important to me.  Trying to cause pain
is likely to cause trouble for Bob.  Some of the advice here could end
with a felony conviction (assault with a deadly weapon), a few years in
the slammer, and no wife, no kids and no home.


Bob,

Take the advice in these notes to protect yourself, but keep a clear
head and stay focused on what you really want.

Wally

    Re. Fred and a few others who are trying to teach me your concept of
    reality.
    
    Ok, I hear you.... at least as well as its possible to without having
    been knocked from here to the moon and back in a divorce fight.
    
    I will restate, I have not once suggested he NOT take appropriate steps
    to protect himself financially and emotionally.  
    
    I am glad Bob is seeing his lawyer and working things out as you all
    are suggesting, and, as you have said it seems it has been none too
    soon.
    
    Jeff

         I saw the lawyer today. He was pretty honest that there's not a
    whole lot that can now be done about the 3rd party. He said that our
    objective now is to protect me. He said the fact that I'd taken such
    an active role in parenting was a big plus. He laid odds of 35% that
    I could get custody. This is based solely on my wifes health problems.
    He strongly suggested trying counseling.... Should be interesting I
    would really like to hear what she's got to say. You know when people
    miscommunicate it's really scary some of the interpretations that are
    made. He did say that he knew my wifes lawyer and that he'd urge him
    to put everything on hold for 3 months and ask Terry to seriously
    consider counseling.
             I must say I really don't think my wife is an ogre. As Lorna
    has said she was and still is a well respected person. She hit a nerve
    with me and I reacted hitting a nerve in her causing a total breakdown
    of communication. I've always dealt with problems by addressing them
    she's always dealt with sensitive ones by bottling them up. I told one
    of my counselors the other day that I bet I could talk to her via
    computer terminal provided she didn't know it was me. When a person 
    reaches a point where they're not listening ,myself included, nothing
    the messenger says is heard. 
    
              Bob

Although I've never been married, I've gone through a few breakups in my time, 
and I'm peering over the precipice of another one at the present time.  That's 
"peering," ok?   :-)

I haven't read all the replies to this topic, and I don't understand some of 
the legal issues, but I thought perhaps I'd air some of my own thoughts in
the area of how we feel as well as what we do during these difficult times.

Having made dozens of mistakes and having attempted to learn from them, I try
to abide by the following rules during a breakup.  Why?  Two reasons... first,
I believe they constitute proper and gentlemanly behavior, and second, we
always look back and ask ourselves, "What if I'd..."  When I look back, I want
to be able to say to myself, "I could have done no more."  (Or conversely, "if
only I hadn't said...")   :-)

	1. Treat her with dignity, regardless of whose idea the breakup
	   is or how it progresses.  Politeness and decency and basic 
	   courtesy cost nothing, but they increase your sense of self-
	   worth and your worth in they eyes of everyone else (including 
	   "hers").

	2. Never prostrate yourself.  To do so is to deny your worth as
	   a man and as a human.

	3. Act globally (in football terms, "make end runs").  Every
	   action and word should be based on the big picture.  Tactics, 
	   tactics, tactics.

	4. Abandon all "baggage," but carry any new knowledge you've
	   gained regarding what a partner needs from your years together 
	   with your wife into your new relationship.  No man is perfect,
	   and neither is any woman.  But we all get better over time
	   because we learn what other people need.  Your new s.o. will
	   thank you.

	5. Don't try to make the hurt go away.  It's supposed to hurt.
	   When you feel lousy, think "Okay, this is normal and
	   expected." 

	6. If "leaving" is in the cards, and I guess in your case it is,
	   then leave with honor.

	7. Understand and always keep in the front of your mind your
	   basic worth as a man and as a partner for the next woman
	   you find.  Never, ever forget this.
                      
Just mho... best of luck to you.
- craig

    Bob, 

    I spite of the impression I've probably left with some of my notes,
    and in spite of some of the things I've been thought, I still believe
    that a marriage should be saved if possible.  The children are the
    ones who will be the big loser's if it breaks up.  By trying to work
    things out with counseling and such, if it comes down to it, you
    can show the court, if you've documented everything properly, that
    _you_ at least have tried everything you could to make sure the
    children have _two_ parents and that, if necessary, you are perfectly
    willing and capable to take care of the children yourself.

    Prepare for the worst.  Hope for the best.
    fred();

    One more thing.  I can't guarantee what will happen if you try, but
    I can guarantee what will happen if you don't try.
    fred();

    re. .70  Wally.
    
    Exactly Wally........ you summed up what I have been trying to say.
    
    1. Protect youself and the kids.
    
    2. Try and stay open for communications and try counseling... at least
    for yourself even if she won't go, FAR better if she will go.
    
    3. Try not be judgemental of her... but set behavior limits in front
    of you and the kids.
    
    4. Don't intentionally try to hurt anybody.
    
    Jeff

    Bob keeping an open door for the soon to be ex to reconcile might not
    be a good idea. Perhaps months ago. But at this stage in the game, its
    very hard to burry the visuals seen of the STBX (soon to be ex)
    smooching in front of him. 
    
    The only way she is going to come back is to do a "Pear Harbor" of his 
    lidigation. For IF she comes back when the filing is filed, he abates
    all chances for a fair and just divorce. There has been a case where a
    man got custody, the marrital home, and a token support. The ex did a 
    boo-hoo on him. He wanted to be a good Christian, he wanted things to
    be the way they were. He thought he was doing the best for the
    children by rising above the petty-ness of two adults having a spat
    that went over board. Well she moved in, things went fine for about two
    three months. She went back to her beau, guess there was an itch to be
    scratched that he could reach. And now..... the kids are hers, the
    house is sold, and he is some where no one knows. His name I will give
    out off line if you feel that I am making up a story.......
    

I'm sorry, I can't buy the old adage:

	"Keep the marriage together if possible.  If you split up, the kids
	will be the losers".


Sure, if you can *work out* the marriage, stay together.

But as far as the kids well being is concerned, kids are not better off with
parents that continually fight.  Kids are not better off with parents that use
alcohol, drugs, and sex as ways to escape from dealing in a healthy way with
issues.


There are many situations where the kids *win* if the parents split up.  The
kids see parents modeling a world where we do what we have to, if what we wanted
just doesn't work anymore.

Kids are better off with happy split up parents than miserable together ones.

/Eric

    This was one mans insight, one mans idea, and one tragic loss because
    once the court system sees that you are back together again, then when
    you break up again, the feel that this is going to be a common
    occurance that you will break up and get together like velcro, over and
    over. Your sueing the opposing camp for damages of the trust of
    marriage. Old age stuff, in a new age world?.... :)
    
    

    Bob,
    
    How old are your children?  I believe at 12, they can decide which
    parent to live with.  I'm sure your's are younger.
    
    Joanne

    re .79

    It may look like I'm arguing both sides of the fence here, but 
    I think the situation depends on how much leverage _you_ have
    over whether to work on the marriage or proceed with the divorce.
    If the other party is proceeding hell-bent-for-leather to the
    divorce court, then you have not choice but to defend yourself.
    However if you have some say in the decision, I have always 
    urged people to proceed carefully.  Especially if there are
    children involved.

>Sure, if you can *work out* the marriage, stay together.
>
>But as far as the kids well being is concerned, kids are not better off with
>parents that continually fight.  Kids are not better off with parents that use
>alcohol, drugs, and sex as ways to escape from dealing in a healthy way with
>issues.

    I think we disagree only on the amount of effort that should go into
    trying to save the marriage.  All too often, the _first_ option of
    a problem marriage is to run to divorce court.

>There are many situations where the kids *win* if the parents split up.  The
>kids see parents modeling a world where we do what we have to, if what we wanted
>just doesn't work anymore.

    Personally I think that this is the ultimate me-generation cop-out.
    Used by all to many irresponsible parents to soothe their own selfish
    conscience.  Nearly every parent that I've seen who is the instigator in
    a divorce has used it.  Truth is that psychological studies have show
    that  children nearly always suffer in a divorce.  Both from the loss
    of stability in their lives and self-blame for the marriage breaking
    up.  Even if the marriage was a bad marriage, children will blame
    themselves for the break up.  All too often it is the parent that the
    child is closest to that is the one that the child is deprived of. 
    Even when the father is not all that close to the child, the simple
    fact that he is there, especially in later adolescence and teen years,
    is a major stabilizing factor in the child's life.  One major problem
    I've always had with the radical feminists is the discounting of the
    father's role in the lives of their children.

    Yes, I know that there are marriages that cannot be saved, but I  think
    that there are many that could be with a little maturity and 
    consideration on the part of the parents.

    fred();

    Well, it feels weird to sort of agree with you, Fred :>, but I do
    agree with some of your note.
    
    It's one thing when there is abuse (to either spouse or the children)
    or some sort of dangerous situation, but other than that, I don't see
    why some married people find it so difficult to be faithful to their
    vows *and* to use maturity and consideration when dealing with each
    other (ESPECIALLY when they have children.)
    
    It seems really irresponsible to me to see people bring children into
    the world then proceed to scream at each other continuously over the
    stupidest little things (or even worse, to go out screwing around and
    lying to get their sexual or flirtation kicks because marriage seems
    a bit too 'settled down' and unexciting.)  
    
    In my opinion, such behavior is the height of selfishness.  What's
    the point of it??

    
    > well, it feels weird to sort of agree with you, Fred
    
     Hey you oughta try reading it :-)
    
    David

           With a good lawyer waiting in the wings I feel ready for the
    oncoming onslaught. FWIW I don't drink, or use recreational drugs, nor
    am I into kinky sex. The real issue , if you ignore the 3rd party, is
    one of sensitivity.  We finally got this out during a counseling
    session. We've been through the death of a neighbors young daughter and
    another neighbor having fought 2 bouts of cancer and surviving. Her
    perception was that I didn't care about what these people were going
    through??? At least this gave me an opportunity to spout off the names
    of 6 relatives that I saw die from cancer. Terry never realized how
    horrifying it had been in my teens to bury my own father who had also 
    died of cancer. 
           According to Terry she'd gone away in Oct. to think hard about
    where our marriage was going. She said she'd been very depressed since 
    Jan. of 1992. She said at that time she decided she was in it for the
    long haul. Except I pushed her back into depression by suspecting she'd
    had an affair. Thus far everyone has told her she was offbase to invite
    a man to come spend the night with her in NH. Regardless of this she's
    still bound and determined to pursue the divorce. At least now we are
    in couples counseling and we're both also in individual counseling. 
    One counselor pulled me aside after a couples session and said she was
    sure that Terry and her friend had never slept together. She also said
    that her feelings for him are a lot stronger than Terry realizes. 
          So I'll take my battle to the courtroom and hope that some of the
    ideas given to me by you fine people will help. Kids are ages 9,11, &12
    The 9 year old asked if he could stay with me. He called me his best
    buddy :-( .
    
           regards,
    
              Bob 

    
    
    Personally I think _she_ is the one who is being insensitive---
    to what a divorce will do to her faimily and her children.  
    This "I'm upset becuause you're upset because I went away for the
    weekend and asked another man along" is pure bovine fertilizer.
    Shoulds like she is having probems dealing with her own responisbility.
    This is likely to be a tough nut to crack.
    
    fred();

Bob,

Unfortunately, the title of .86 says it all.  Figuring out who has been more
insensitive won't get you anywhere.

Sounds to me like you are doing the right thing: in counseling and in the 
courts.

Just stay clear on what you want and what is the best way of getting it.

Good luck.

Wally

    Bob, I just wanted to get back in to tell you I think this is a lousy
    deal and that I sympathize with you.  You have my best wishes.  Hang in
    there, pal...
    
    - craig
    
                             

           Well it would seem that some of the less conservative lawmakers
    have made things less concrete in my future. For one thing my wife and
    I both have pretty sterling reputations. By default she wins on almost
    all counts. Even walking on the edge as she's done won't hold water in
    court. Hitting the neighbor with an alienation of affection suit also
    has been stricken from the books as a means of possibly dissuading a
    potential suitor. She stands to lose the most in this divorce as she's
    not getting any support from anyone in her family. She may be one very
    lonely person when it's finished.
            Enough of that though. My resolve to attempt to save this
    marriage is now gone. I guess that means I'm past the denial stage. I'm
    attempting to convince her that we should sit down with an arbiter and
    write a divorce decree. She's going to at least consider this as a way
    for both of us to back off and bow out. Yes in the end I'll get stuck
    with child support etc. At this stage of the game I feel I must do
    what's best for my kids. If that means stepping back and wait for my
    soon to be ex to mess up then so be it. I fully intend to land on my feet
    and will always be close by for my kids sake.  
            One thing has become clearer as I've stepped back to look at
    where we'd been going. For years she'd always told me that I deserved
    better than her, no comments Lorna :-) ,her anemia meant I had to slow 
    down so as not to wear her out. Deep down inside I'd always been angry
    at her for holding me back. Now that I've managed to bring this anger
    to the surface I better understand how things progressed then regressed
    over the years. Will keep you all posted as to what the coming week
    brings.
    
            Bob

> I'm out of the denial stage

 This is a major step forward. Best wishes to you, Bob.

          I suppose an update is in order.
    
          We had an interesting day in court last Friday. I'v been out on
    my own for just over a month. Yes the victim gets the boot even under
    my circumstances.
          She took me to court in order to get a temporary order tapping me
    for private school on top of the child support. She wanted an
    additional $115-125/week. I went in fairly confident that she wouldn't
    get it as the courts would be treading on thin ice of they ruled
    against me. I mean it would be an admission that the states public
    schools are no good. Well it turned out I was right. She walked in very
    smug and huffy. After the magistrate had finished chastising her and
    her lawyer for 15 minutes he ruled against her. They decided not to
    go before a judge to see if he/she'd go the other way.
          While I've been out she's continued to do ooodles of volunteer
    work while continuing to work only 16 hours a week at her payimg job.
    The magistrate recommended that she consider working more hours. This
    was the crux why she wanted out. She claims that I asked her to work 
    32 hrs/week. She feels she's physically incable of working that much.
    Yet in 1992 I loosely documented some 350-450 hours of volunteer work.
    She's now in a position that the courts have been made aware of her
    volunteer work so she'll be in a weak position to make future demands.
    They're also aware of the 3rd party and if need be I can fire a legal
    volley to prevent him from attempting to bail her out financially.
          Her boyfriend is doing ok. She hates for me to call him her
    boyfriend. Heck I coulda been all wrong in my assumption "NOT!". She's
    practically living with him now. Just last week my son slept at his
    house 3 days in a row.
          A word to those just about to go through court etc. Have a good
    lawyer and be aware of your rights before going in. I relied a lot on
    input from this notesfile and advice from a friend whose wife is/was a
    legal secretary. DADS never returned my call or sent any info. I'll
    pursue them for info when things settle down. My lawyer did say that
    there may not be a need to return to court. There's nothing left to
    contest. Sure I'm still paying formula which is a lot of money. At
    least I've escaped with my dignity. Maybe someday us men won't be
    treated as criminals when in fact we were the victims.
    
    
             Bob

 Sorry to hear that it had to be this way, but it sounds like you are
prevailing nonetheless. Keep your head high, Bob.

           Well It's been a year now and we finally had our day in court
    last Monday. I'd like to think that in the end we managed to strike a
    deal with which we could both live. Keep in mind whilst I spell it out
    I was up against a very stubborn but well educated woman. Having a good 
    lawyer only hurt me because every time we tried to outmaneuver them
    we'd only get STBE madder.
           She ends up keeping the house. She's currently getting 39% of my
    gross. This is after both of us sat down and tried to come up with a $
    amount we could subsist on. Luckily my mother recently remarried after
    20 years as a widow. I'll be renting her condo at a rent that I can
    afford for now. On the plus side, I think, she'll be buying me out with
    money she'll get from her recently deceased dad's estate. Out of this
    buyout she'll skim off 1/2 of the pension amount accrued during our 
    marriage and 1/2 of my 401k, or around $7k. So I'll end up with $11,700
    and an intact pension. Beats me what I'll do with the $$. My lawyer
    claims I need to roll it over within 2 yrs or pay capitol gains tax.
    With what I'm paying in CS as is the case for most people with 3
    children I won't be able to afford a mortgage anytime soon. 
    We have no written visitation agreement and will continue to alternate 
    weekends with the children. I've also allready selected 2 weeks during the
    summer during which the kids will be with me. The judge seemed
    surprised that we had nothing written on visitation. I felt it
    unecessary as STBE and I are on very good speaking terms for our
    kids sake it was prudent to be as amicable as possible.
          As an aside the 3rd party mentioned in the basenote is at the
    house almost 7 days a week now. 
    
         Bob who is looking for a long and happy future
    

	It is wonderful to hear that you are looking for a long and
happy future.   A positive attitude is very important.

	You said you were paying your ex 39% of your gross.  Is that
all child support ?    Noncustodial notes 197.1 would suggest a
different figure ??

           I'm paying around $25/week over formula. This was one of the
    things the lawyers fought bitterly about. It's all CS. My lawyer wanted
    the dollar amount over and above formula to be alimony. I figured I
    didn't even want the mention of alimony in the decree at present. She's 
    agreed to let me take the exemptions which should help a little. FWIW one 
    of my children is 14 so the 33% in note 197.1 of non-custodial notes gets
    bumped by a little closer to %35???
           Another scenario was that the judge wanted me to co-sign a
    refinance on the house to lower her monthly payments. After a lot of
    hard thought STBE and I both agreed that this was a ridiculous
    request. Granted the mortgage payments are a bit steep. There's
    currently only 13 years left on the mortgage. The judge wanted a 30
    year refinance. The 13 years coincides with my youngest turning 23 so
    we opted to stick with what we've got. Granted it would've lowered my
    CS to formula or even lower for the present. It also would've set me up
    for steep alimony in the event STBE doesn't remarry. 
    
    
    bob

    Bob,
    
    It sounds like such a travisty... that even the judge will force you,
    under duress to sign away property. But, hey, it all in the great game
    called divorce.

Re: .95

It seems that in your effort to be a "nice guy", you made things tougher
for yourself.  Do you realize that the "extra 25%" would have been tax
deductible for you if you had designated it alimony?  Child support is
not tax deductible.  Also, what arrangements did you make for your
children's college education?  If you remained married, you would have been
under no obligation to pay for your kids' college expenses, but now that
you're divorced, you're on the hook for the full amount at any school,
no matter how expensive.

I think it's wonderful that you've managed to avoid the typical acrimonious
battle that divorces so often are, but I can't help but wonder if you've
managed to make things even worse for yourself than they had to be.

				Steve

    
    re on the hook for college
    
    since when? I thought that was thrown out in a court case?

    re .98
    
    I thought that this was upheld in court.  Some guy in Indiana was 
    fighting it but I think he lost.  Anyway I still see a lot of
    laws that still stick the non-custodial parent (NCP) with college.
    
    fred()

    In New Hampshire, DCYS tried taking an unemployed construction worker
    to court for this. He had set his daughter up with a $60,000.00 trust
    fund for college. The ex....squandered the money. And so they tried to
    take this man to court to make him pay for the college. He was got off.
    He is sad that his ex squandered the money, and wishs he could have
    been able to help. But thats life. She will have to work her way thru
    like many other people. And she might have to wait on a few tables
    also.

             I regards to alimony at age 40 I refused to even let it start
    now. Let her come after me in 15 years for it. To voluntarily do so now
    would make it easier for her to increase it as the children move out.
    It's like a chess game and in my case this was my best move.  To me
    paying a little over guidelines is a good investment in my kids future.
    So I struggle a little for a couple of years. I really don't expect her
    to ever drag me back into court for increases in CS. Why? I know for a
    fact she'll be marrying her new lover probably by the end of the year.
             She'll be giving me the exemptions because she makes less than 
    11k a year and qualifies for no tax status. Believe me when I said we sat 
    down alone and went through each others finances with a fine tooth comb. 
    We'll each be hurting financially for the forseeable future. The kids will
    probably be affected for the rest of their lives though!
             College expenses weren't even brought up. The current laws in
    Mass. don't stick the non-cuctodial parent with 100% of college
    expenses. It's a precentage up to 50%. My recently deceased
    father-in-law willed all of his insurance $$ to his grandchildren. That
    money will be put into a trust for the kids education. Granted by then
    at a pricey college that money would be gone in a year or 2. STBE is
    the exectutor of his estate and the will was written in such a manner
    as to make the insurance money inaccesible to her.  
              
    
    
    
             Bob

    Bob,
    
    I have a friend in Littleton New Hampshire. He is very lucky, he has
    custody, he had to buy out the ex. And HE PAYS CHILD SUPPORT TO HIS EX
    WHO DOES NOT PROVIDE FOOD, CLOTHING, OR SHELTER TO HER CHILDREN. And
    she has Just remarried. This is normally termed, alimony/maintence in
    New Hampshire. But to Marrital Master Peter Bourque, this is child
    support. 
    
    I wish you luck in the future.