Conference quark::mennotes

    I measure the action, and its implications, against my core values.
    
    Which is more important to me?  Based on the asnwer, I ask.
    
    					andrew

    Weigh the alternatives.
    
    For toys, it comes down to whether I want the new one enough to sell
    one or more of my old ones to pay for it.
    
    For beer, it's a simple matter of whether I've had more than one per
    hour recently.
    
    For the woman and the job offer, the situations are similar but not
    identical.  They both revolve around honor.  The one thing that sets
    Robert B. Parker's Spenser and Hawk apart from the circles they move in
    is that they do what they say.  Spenser and Hawk are only fiction, but
    I have learned the hard way that this is the most important truth that
    can be said about a person.
    
    -dick

For the "attractive woman" scenario, I liked the response of one of the
advice columnists.  She said to imagine the situation in reverse - that is,
your wife is approached by a "really attractive man"; what would you want
her to do?

					Steve

    	A couple of years ago I was abroad on a business trip with a
    colleague. One evening in the hotel bar she asked me what I would do if
    when I went back to my room there was a gorgeous woman there inviting
    me into the bed.
    
    	I told her I would have to 'phone my wife for permission.
    
    	Later she asked my wife what she would do if she received such a
    'phone call. My wife said she would agree, provided the other woman
    would do a fair share of the housework.
    
    	For beer, job offers, etc., it is not clear that you would be
    dealing with any other trade off than between your own short term and
    long term interests. That is just a personal decision without moral
    implications, so I am not sure I would classify it as temptation.

    re:.0
    
    With cheating, I think of the consequences, and how it would feel if
    she did it to me.  This doesn't always work, but it sure does help with
    about 99% of the cases.
    
    With booze, I think back to the last time I prayed to the porcelain god
    and promised to never drink again.  A good yak session is good for
    approximately 2-3 months of total abstinence.

    Eveyone will be true to their natures when encountering those
    situations. No matter what any of us say here, if one of those choices 
    are in front of us we will do what we have always done, and that is the 
    truth. 
    
    				Wayne 

    i cant resist a game of chess any time, it is terrible, i could
    be setting saying, ok, this is the last one, then i say ok just
    one more, and it goes on and on and one...
    i know this is not a severe temptation like the others had but it
    is a temptation i think in all its right.

    \bye
    \nasser

    Re .6
    
    No, Wayne, not all of us will do what we have always done.  I repeat
    the point I made in .2; I have learned THE HARD WAY that I can't do
    what I have always done.  And I therefore will not do so.
    
    -dick

    
    When tempted to do something that would put me out of integrity with
    myself (my values, who I want to be, etc.), whether it's consumables,
    purchases, or relationship-related, I simply respeak my promise to be
    who I say I am, do what I'd want the person I love to do, or realize
    that what I'm reaching for is temporary and weigh the cost of doing it.
    
    Particularly with relationships, I am committed to choosing what is,
    choosing what I promised, and re-generating whatever is missing so it
    becomes clearly the thing I want most.
    
    -Jody
    

        "Aw, c'mon - your wife would never know!"
        
        "Nope - but _I_ would know and that's why I won't do it."
        
        Andy
        
        PS.  Can't remember where I heard the above, but it makes sense
        to me and sums up my attitude to temptation.
        

For me, attending Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous meetings has shown me that
I *don't* have to keep doing what I've always done.  There's definitely
something about merely attending the meetings that helps me plot a new course.

My old course was "getting involved with someone that *seems* like nice
excitement, only to have the relationship not work" (again and again).

The new course is "hold off for now until I know better".

In fact, many people in the program define "insanity" as:

	Insanity is continuing to do the same things over and over, hoping
	for better results


/Eric

    For temptations, rely in our ethics and sense of honor.  It's no use
    following somebody else's honor if we don't know our very "own" first.
    THEN, built up from there...morality is fairly well known by all ages,
    though also ignored. Ethics and honor makes the difference.

    Beer - well, first think of how all that beer is just going to turn
    into a pot-belly, that should satisfy the temptation part of it. Just
    say NO! 
    
    on women and being a married guy... think of how you would feel if your
    wife cheated on you.  think about getting aids. think about if a
    one-nighter is worth the x numer of years you've been married. think
    about how guilty you would feel. and lastly, think about what a scum
    you would be if you went ahead and did it anyway. 

    re:.11
    
    Just an aside ... anyone see the Herman's Head when Jay went to a
    Sexaholics Anonymous meeting to meet women?
    
    We now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

    
    What Jody said ...
    
    It comes from within me  ... I know who I am and whom I'd like to be
    and that makes virtually all choices easy ... for example, I will never
    cheat on my wife because I gave my word and because I(we) have a vision
    of a relationship that is monogamous.  
    
    The tough ones are topics about which I may be addictive ... here I do
    worry about consequences ... for example, I never smoked for fear
    of becoming hooked and not being able to quit.                  
    
    Greg
    

    If you go by some of the responses in note 36, why worry?  If you 
    do anything you're not supposed to, it is because there is some _need_
    that some else is not fulfilling.  It's _their_ fault.
    sys$set_sarcasm(0);
    fred();

    re .5, I agree with Mike.  With cheating I would think of the
    consequences, and how I'd feel if he did it to me.
    
    And, with booze, all I have to do is think about the last time I
    threw-up from drinking too much!  By now, I can always tell when the 
    next drink will make me puke.
    
    To be honest, I base my actions more on how much I think the
    consequences would actually hurt someone, and how much I would care if
    they did, than on any abstract sense of honor.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .16, well, sometimes, Fred, that is exactly the case.  Sometimes,
    whether you want to believe it or not, people do find themselves in
    marriages where their needs are not being met.  And, sometimes the
    other person doesn't give a damn that your needs are not being met.  I
    have no idea whether this is the case in topic 36, but it was certainly
    the case in my own marriage.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .18
>    re .16, well, sometimes, Fred, that is exactly the case.  Sometimes,
>    whether you want to believe it or not, people do find themselves in
>    marriages where their needs are not being met.  And, sometimes the

    That is something that needs to be worked out between the husband and
    wife (if you care about the marriage anyway).  Hoppin' into bed
    with the first bozo or bozette that comes along should be (at least)
    the second alternative.  

    But I'll remember this the next time I need an excuse.  Nothing like
    being able to "blame the victim", ehy?

    fred()

    RE: .0  The Doctah
    
    > A really attractive woman finds you attractive, too, but you're already
    > married. How do you keep yourself out of trouble?
    
    Think about your children.  If you do something that puts your 
    marriage at risk, it's not just a matter of cheating on your mate
    - it's also cheating on your children (in a very real sense.)
    
    Also, sex outside of a monogamous relationship could put your whole
    family at risk of harm (including risking AIDS.)  Imagine how awful
    it would feel if you and your wife brought a new child into the
    world with AIDS (and your wife had AIDS) simply because you couldn't
    resist temptation.
    
    Would it be worth such risks (really)?

    re .19, it could be the case that the person whose needs were not being
    met had been trying for years to work out the problem, with no
    willingness on the part of the other partner to do anything about it. 
    Then, perhaps, after years of trying to work out the problem, the
    person hopped into bed with a very attractive non-bozo, too.  Usually,
    part of the attraction is having found someone to talk to, also.  Some
    people find themselves in marriages with a person who doesn't talk to
    them and doesn't give them any affection.  A desire for affection and
    conversation probably has more to do with it than a desire for just
    sex.  I've noticed that some men seem to be willing to stay in
    marriages that completely devoid of any time of intimacy or affection. 
    Sometimes people do what they do, not out of a whim, but rather out of
    a desire for self-survival.  
    
    Lorna
    

    r3 Lorna
    
    Are you married?
    
    fred();

 I've noticed that some men seem to be willing to stay in
    marriages that completely devoid of any time of intimacy or affection. 
    Sometimes people do what they do, not out of a whim, but rather out of
    a desire for self-survival.  
    
    Lorna
    


Women do this just as much as men




/Eric

    re .23, Eric, I never said they didn't.  But, I've also known men who
    were very happily married, yet still enjoyed getting a little variety
    on the side.  I think that more happily married men cheat, than happily
    married women.  I think that usually when married women cheat, it's
    because they are really looking for love, not just variety.  Of course,
    there are exceptions to this.
    
    re .22, I was married for 12 1/2 yrs.  I've been divorced for almost 8
    yrs.    Why?
    
    Lorna
    

> I think that usually when married women cheat, it's
>    because they are really looking for love, not just variety.  Of course,
>    there are exceptions to this.
>    
>    re .22, I was married for 12 1/2 yrs.  I've been divorced for almost 8
>    yrs.    Why?
>    
>    Lorna



I'm sorry, I still must beg the issue.  I believe that when married men cheat,
they *also* are really looking for love.

/Eric

    re .25, well, to be honest with you, Eric, I've always felt that the
    married men I screwed were just looking for a piece of ass, so what can
    I say?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    re .25 and back.
    
    I think when SOME people cheat, they are looking for love. Or attention
    that the spouse may temporarily not be giving them. It seems as though
    when one partner gets wrapped up in something, things sometimes get
    sticky. And when it happens and all is said and done, both partners
    often have some thinking to do.
    
    But I strongly believe that there are OTHER people, men and women, who
    cheat because they simply don't consider their fidelity to be as
    important as their own fun. In fact some people (I'd say more men than
    women, but I could be wrong) think of cheating as their personal
    perogative. Because they can afford a mistress or because they're out of
    town or because someone caught their eye and makes them feel
    attractive... and their feelings toward their spouse don't really
    incline them toward fidelity.
    
    I think a lot of people tend to forget that there are MANY, MANY
    different reasons why people get married. Many people get married for
    convenience, to leave home, to have a sex partner, to have a partner
    with whom to raise a family, to give a child a name, to have some
    companionship, to honor a will, to cement an alliance, because "its
    time", to look better in the eyes of corporate peers, to be with
    someone they love... to name a few.
    
    To many people, marriage vows are just a formality...

    There are approximately 2,500,000,000 male human beings.  If all of
    them were married adults and all cheated on their spouses, there would
    be 2,500,000,000 different reasons for cheating.  Some would want what
    they thought was love, others would want a good piece of ass, others
    woud be questing agter the fountain of youth, yet others would be
    searching for self-esteem, and still others for validation in the eyes
    of another.  Some would do it just to find out what cheating felt like.
    
    I doubt seriously whether most of them could state the exact reasons
    for their actions.  But I don't doubt that there would be approximately
    2,500,000,000 damaged wives.
    
    -dick

    
    I can't agree with that, Dick. I simply do NOT believe that every woman
    expects her husband to be faithful and feels "damaged" when he is not.
    In marriages of convenience, some women are THRILLED when their
    husbands take on mistresses. Similarly, there are probably some men who
    are in no way diminished when their wives fool around with the hired
    help because they figure "hey, it keeps her from wanting me home all
    the time".
    
    However. I would say that in marriages where both parties intended to
    uphold their vows, infidelity hurts.
    
    Note: I equate "cheat" with have an affair. However, if your use of the
    word directly implies that the person having an affair is doing so
    against the expressed wishes of the spouse, then you're probably right.
    In some marriages, having an affair is NOT cheating...

    Exactly, 'ren.
    
    	Cheating != having_an_affair
    
    And remember, too, that I said "approximately."  That was a deliberate
    CYA tactic; I don't assert that all cheated-on spouses are damaged; I'm
    sure some people who experience being ceated on find that it runs off
    their psyches like water off a duck's back.  Nobody's the same as
    anybody else, there are only generalities to be made.
    
    -dick

    re .30, I bet most cheated on spouses never find out for certain that
    they were ever cheated on.  It's amazing what people can get away with
    if they are careful.
    
    Lorna
    

    "To many people, marriage vows are just a formality..."

Exactly. They are. So what ?

- Paul.

    .28  there are approximately 2,500,000,000 male human beings etc.
    
    So what.  Excuse me, but what does the number of male humans have to
    do with this?   That many male humans, that many excuses I suppose?
    Actually I don't believe there would be a different excuse for each
    male, there might be SOME overlap.
    
    Fortunately there ARE NOT 2,500,000,000 males cheating on their wives.
    
    I for one, am not cheating.
    
    Jeff

    Re .33
    
    Excuse me.  I'm so terribly sorry for having assumed that everyone who
    notes here has the ability to read and to extrapolate from explicit
    statements by integrating them with prior knowledge.  My mistake.
    
    The discussion between Lorna and Eric was exploring men's reasons for
    cheating.  One said, essentially, that men who cheat are looking for
    sex, and the other disagreed.  There was further exchange.  I added my
    own thoughts, viz, it's not a yes/no thing.  Since you apparently
    didn't follow the thread of all that, I'll elaborate.
    
    > Actually I don't believe there would be a different excuse for each
    > male, there might be SOME overlap.
    
    Of course there is overlap in reasons for what people do.  There's
    overlap with fingerprints, too - some people have loops, others have
    whorls, and so on.  But no two have identical prints, and no two people
    would have *identical* reasons for cheating.  Therefore, there is a
    unique specificity of reason for each man.  Is this too difficult for
    you to comprehend?
    
    > I for one am not cheating.
    
    Goody for you.  Did you read *any* of what I said in .28 after you
    worked out the fact that I had written a number?  If you did, how did
    you manage to overlook my having begun the very next sentence with the
    word "If"?  Obviously, I am not saying all men cheat.  Or at least it
    seemed obvious when I wrote it.  As I said, my mistake.
    
    -dick

    Ok Dick, I was a bit smart in my reply to you. Sorry.
    
    Yeah, I do have trouble extrapolating from explicit statements.  That
    is I read in my own interpretation of them.  I read in that virtually
    all men cheat even though you used the word if.  I know you didn't
    say it, but the note felt like you were implying it because of the
    tone of the note.
    
    Anyway..... yes it is amazing what people read into what you THOUGHT
    you said.  But that is the nature of human communications..... its
    frought with misunderstandings and people reading in things you thought
    you didn't say due to their OWN interpretation.
    
    Anyway... 
    
    
    Jeff