Conference quark::mennotes

    There is a man who was Mr. Olympia in the early 70's. His father died,
    his mother called him to ask if he would be present at the funeral and
    to give her support. And Arnold told her that he had to train for the
    next competive show. And he did not have the time.
    
    There are many men and women who throw themselves into their jobs after
    a divorce. The job and they become one. And there is nothing left
    execpt these two elements to their lives. I have met a number of these
    people in my day. 
    
    There are men and women who are hard core in their persuit for their
    sheep skins, (college degrees). And live in a poverty level, some I
    have met collected food stamps and recieved social aid as they worked
    some part time job and their family(s) lived at levels below poverty
    levels. 
    
    Yet, there are a number of folks who are probably like .0 destription
    that would make Mecivlian (sp) look like Mr. Rogers.

>    Would you be willing to sacrifice even your marriage and personal
>    relationships for the pursuit of success?  Is it worth it to pursue
>    success at all costs?  Or is it not even worth pursuing sucess if you
>    don't succeed?

    First you have to define success. I define success for me as having a
    good marriage and personal relationships (especially with my wife and
    son.) So if I sacrificed those things I'd be a failure. :-)

    Now assuming you mean career success. No I would not. If I would then I
    would have long ago. Clearly if I were willing to give up a wife and
    family I could work 12 hour days and be a real expert at lots of stuff.
    I could take the risks involved in consulting and try that route. I
    know people who have and made lots of money at the price of a poor
    family life. It doesn't appear worth it.

    I'll give up somethings. I gave up a lot of time and energy to go back
    to school part time and get my Masters. But I doubt I would have done
    it if I hadn't been able to still find time for my family. I think one
    needs to find a balance. People who give all they have into a career
    often find they have nothing left when they retire. Or they never
    retire so that all the pleasure they get from the work is all the
    pleasure they get. Seems too limiting to me.

    		Alfred

    
    No, I wouldn't let a career dominate my life.
    
    But if a relationship was interfering with my ability to support
    myself, or was impeding my creative joys in life, I'd certainly look
    into what could be done about it.
    
    -Jody
    

    A wiseman once said:
    
    "No amount of material success can compensate for failure in the home."
    
    What is success?  It has several definitions, and perhaps everyone of
    us is successful in their own way.  To use only one yardstick, wealth,
    position, etc. for all the measures of success of faulty.
    
    Bill Clinton successfully won the Presidential Election. Is he
    successful? He has a long way to go yet to prove either his worth,
    merit or success as a President.
    
    Am I successful?  By some measures, most definitely, by others no, but
    then I don't plan to be measured by certain yardsticks. 
    
    My 2 cents
    
    A rather unknown Robert Frost poem ( I believe)
    
    I am nobody.
    Are you nobody too?
    There's two of us.
    Sh! Don't tell anyone.

    One time during a period of extreme family emergency, I had an
    employer tell me that if I took time off I was fired.  I told
    him that another job would be easier to find than another family,
    and left.

    In a large part, the success I have obtained has been because of
    and for my children.   Without them I probably would not have had
    the motivation to return to college.

    fred();

    A man I knew was going to night school. Was a family man, very
    interested in his children and his now ex wife. Was working here in Dec
    and was doing night school to advance himself in this company. Sounds
    like a famular story? Anyhow she told him to stop going to night school
    because she was threatened by the fact that there might be a night
    school woman interested in him. And that she would not have some 'night
    school whore' take her man from her. Well there was allot of talk
    between the two of them and she divorced him based upon that premis.
    
    There are many other things that men and women will do for the
    betterment of the family and not apreaciated for their labors. 
    
    My ex felt that I spent too much time with work and with night school
    too. Felt that this was more important that her and our daughter.
    Hummm. Well I am very certain that the story is the same when you
    reverse gender. 

    re .6, I guess it all depends on what someone is looking for in an SO,
    or husband.  I wouldn't want a husband or SO who never had time for me,
    and was never around no matter how much money he made, or how many
    degrees he had.  I agree with Alfred's reply.  It was very well put.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .4
    
    He was a very wise man indeed.
    
    The poem is by Emily Dickinson - I can't quote it, but it goes on to
    say something to this effect:
    
    	How dreary to be somebody
    	How public, like a frog
    	To tell your name the livelong day to an admiring bog.
    
    aq
    

Check out Fortune - March 8, 1993 - there's an interesting article about
success - it's called 'The New Unemployed'.

Here's a taster ...

	"Terry Cantine, 49, was product marketing manager for a Sun Valley,
	California company called AVX Filters when she got the ax last 
	September...Says Cantine:"My life was my job, but now I'm finding
	out how wrong that is."

Or...

	"Says Kmetz, 46: "I have no career aspirations. I don't want to move up,
	At my age, I'm not very hopeful about finding another good job. For me,
	the American Dream is dead." "

Or ..	

	"The trouble is, you are what you do. If you are unemployed, then
	what are you ?" - Edoardo Leoncavallo, 56 - he's unemployed too.

I know where I want to achieve success in my life.

- Paul.