Conference quark::mennotes

    I "encouraged" my daughters toward math, reading, understanding how
    things worked, and putting the &%^�#@ dishes into the dishwasher.
    
    ed

>    I told both of my daughters that while they were in high school (and/or
>    junior high) they WOULD (daddy's law) take home economics - they would
>    learn to sew - they would learn to cook - they would learn to type.

    For what it's worth, my father made sure all his sons knew how to cook
    and sew at least enough to get by. And he sent two of us to secretarial
    school to learn to type. Our Jr High got out a month before the public
    schools did and so we went to typing class every school day for a
    month. These are valuable skills for men as well as for women.

    I don't have a daughter myself. I have wondered just how I would raise
    one but I'm not sure one really knows until faced with the reality of
    it.
    
    		Alfred

    I am trying to get my daughter in/onto the family pc. Have you tried to
    play Big Bird and Little Bird delevers mail to the pals aroud town
    lately? :) 
    
    I am hoping to get my daughter to understand that there are no bounds
    anymore. IF she wants to hold a male traditionally held job someday. I am 
    behind her all the way.
    
    I am also having fun reading the classics to her..:) Like 'Bongo the
    Bear' and etc. Remember that bears say they love you with a slap.:)
    
    Peace 

    My daughter wanted to take drum lessons in 4th or 5th grade.  I thought
    that it might be seen as a traditionally guy thing, and she had no
    trace of rhythm whatsover, but I encouraged her.  She quickly took it
    as a challenge, and became the best drummer her excellent teacher had.
    She's taking auto repair in high school, and has to fight the teacher
    because she's delicate and very feminine, and he's a real sexist guy
    who asks her to get him a cup of coffee all the time, makes comments
    about her, etc.... She has his grudging respect, because she can weld
    with the best of them.
    My boy is taking home economics.  I'm glad, he should be
    self-sufficient.
    I catch myself sometimes.  I tend to ask him to take the trash out, and
    tend to ask her to set the table, and forget sometimes to switch things
    like that.  Doesn't seem to be a big thing, though.  Their mother does
    the minor car repair things, like check the oil.  I always read them
    stories at bedtime.
    My girl is very comfortable with bringing anything up with me.  I'm
    sure she'd give me an appropriate admonition if I was sexist and it got
    in her way.

      <<< Note 16.0 by MORO::BEELER_JE "America is being held hostage!" >>>

>    Do you find yourself gently pushing your daughters into what some may
>    characteristically 'feminine' things?  Examples?

	NO!

	I was very dissapointed when I found out that se was taking 
	"home ec.". I am currently in the process of building her a 
	competition pistol so that she can shoot IPSC matches (Practical
	or Combat shooting scenarios). 

	Mom is signing her up for "hand to hand" training.
	
	Of course when she wanted to take ballet, that was OK too.

	Survival skills like cooking, ironing etc. are also on the agenda.

Jim

    I tried to get my daughters into shooting ... no way they wanted
    anything to do with guns.

    I tried to get them into hunting.  No way.  I was thoroughly defiled
    for killing Bambi - one year they even took my doe permits and
    destroyed them before I got to use 'em!

    I tried to get them into fishing - plain ol' float fishing.  They
    wouldn't bait the hook - when they caught something they wouldn't take
    it off the hook - they wouldn't put the catch on the stringer - when we
    got home they wouldn't help gut or scale the catch.  Oh, they had zero
    problems eating it!  Forget it.

    So .. I reconciled myself to the fact that I had girls and treated them
    thusly.  They love it .. and .. well .. truth be known ... so does daddy.

    Bubba

    Sounds more like you started treating them like people, who have their
    own opinions and want to make their own decisions...  That's how my
    father always treated me, and I still think he walks on water. ;-)
    Heck, some of my fondest childhood memories involve those
    father/daughter chats in which he would teach me how to use a slide
    rule, or listen to me expounding at length on deep, philosophical
    issues - without even snickering when I'd wax profound about things of
    which I had no personal knowledge whatsoever. It's a priceless gift,
    being listened to...]
    
    -b

    My first 3 children were boys.  The fourth was a girl and given her
    older brother's inclination for "all boy things' I was sure she would
    be a real tom boy. 
    
    No way.  From day one she was all girl and we did nothing to encourage
    her either towards typical feminine/masculine things.  She just acted
    out being a girl, dolls, tea sets, clothes, and quieter, less
    aggressive behaviors.
    
    Now she's a teenager and is again typical (somewhat to my regret).
    Boys, the phone, boys, clothes, boys, makeup, boys, ballet and horses
    are her interests.
    
    I have another daughter (the other half of a twin set-a boy and a girl)
    who is anyting but they typical girl. Her twin brother is placid,
    passive, and gentle.  She is training to be a marine, and goes on
    search and destroy missions hourly. 
    
    The one benefit to having daughters is that it has helped me to
    understand females more, and to make my wife aware that there is most
    definitely a difference between the sexes. She now acknowledges that
    my comments about "feminine behavior, attitudes, feelings, etc." have
    some credibility because they are manifested right in our own family.
    
    Lastly, my daughters have brought out the stereo typical
    "protector/provider" feelings I have. There is a special bond between
    fathers and daughters that is different from the bond between fathers
    and sons. My daughters cause me to be more whole, more complete by
    being aware of their individuality and their femininity.
    
    So there are my opinions of what my daughters do to bless my life.
    
    Paul

    
    Speaking as a daughter....
    
    I have taken all the classes you are requiring for your daughters.  The
    home ec courses were requried (as were wood and metal shop) and were 
    definitely beneficial.  Taking typing also has great benefits (for 
    computer classes and for term papers)
    
    BUT, and this is where I worry about your *demand* that they take these
    classes: what would you advise your daughter to do if home ec and
    chemistry had a time conflict?  or typing and Spanish?
    
    I would encourage you to work with your daughters to pick the courses
    that will benefit them the most in the long run.  You can always learn
    to cook or sew later in life with adult ed (or through trial and
    error :^) but not having the college core requirements is a tough hole to
    climb out of if college is a goal.
    
    Just my 2 cents,
    Barbara

      <<< Note 16.6 by MORO::BEELER_JE "America is being held hostage!" >>>
>                              -< Hey .. I tried! >-

	Well Bubba, a year or two at a good military school might
	straighten them out. Don't try for VMI though. ;-)

	Seriously, teach them the things they want to learn. But remember
	to teach them the things they NEED to learn.

Jim

    Tonight it's my wife's and her girlfriend's night out.  Meanwhile,
    little 4 yr old Sarah and I are having a "Daddy date", going to grab
    something to eat, some dessert then the playground!
    
    Ron

    
    
    Er, Ron.......perhaps you should skip the dessert. ;')
    
    
    
    yer welcome,
    
    
    Mike

>  
>    Er, Ron.......perhaps you should skip the dessert. ;')
>

	Might as well, 'cause "desserts" spelled backwards is...

   

    re:.11
    
    Ron's a regular Ward Cleaver.

    
    
    	Since I'm not a regular reader of this conference I'm
    	guessing this is as good a place as any for this..
    
    	What does a grown daughter get for her dad for his
    	50th birthday?  When my mom hit 50 a couple of months
    	ago, it was easy, I made her a beautiful tiger eye necklace.
    	But somehow that doesn't seem appropriate for my dad.  =)
    	I want it to be special though, unique.  It is the big
    	50 after all.  I asked him what he wanted and he just told
    	me boring things like flannel and dress shirts.  He has
    	personalized mugs, I got him a personalized plate for his
    	65 pickup for father's day, for his last birthday I made
    	up a coupon for a dinner for just the two of us.  
    	I'm running out of ideas....Money is a problem too, I'm poor.  =)  
    	I need ideas for something that's unique but won't cost me a fortune.
    
    	Please drop me a note at GOOEY::JUDY if you can think of
    	anything. 
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	JJ

    
    re .15
    If he likes jewelry, maybe a tiger-eye ring to go with your mother's
    neclace ( I'm assuming they are still married ).  Or maybe one of
    those big rings that hook in a bull's nose to lead them around :^}.
    f();

I think that what makes presents special is that they could have been given
to just one person by just one person.  So what really matters is what you
and your father are like, and I don't know either of you that well. :-)

But I am getting close to that age, so here are a few ideas on what I might
like.  Maybe this would jog your imagination, so you can come up with ideas
like them that would suit your father.

I don't like a fuss about birthdays ending with zero.  I'd rather get the
message that this is one birthday in a series; you have been there for
others, and you will be there for others.

I think every man should keep a journal.  I already keep one, but if I did not,
I might like one.  If I were giving someone a journal, I'd make it one of
those beautiful bound blank books you get in bookstores.  Then I'd throw in
a lined spiral book (or whatever he uses for work) to actually write in, for
as long as he thinks the other one is too beautiful to use.  And maybe a 
book on journaling, like Tristian Rainier, Linda (?) Hagen or Christina 
Baldwin.  I wish I could recommend a book on journaling written by a man, 
but I have never seen one.

I've got shoeboxes of photographs scattered around in closets.  Somebody who 
knew me well could collect those most meaningful to both of us and mount
them in a frame or book.

I've got a few small figures which some people call spirit animals, or guides
or totems.  If you can make a necklace, could you make a guide?  Do you know
what kind of animal your father would identify himself with?

Are you a calligrapher?  Could you do a scroll of things you remember doing 
together?  Leave a lot of room at the bottom for the future.

Do you know anything he has wanted to do, but never got around to?  A fishing
trip?  An Outward Bound weekend?  A day in the Big City?  Maybe you could
get together with your mother and sign a Permission Certificate.

    What I did for my dad one year was give him a day of just him and me. 
    I don't know what your father's interests are, but if a bad day of
    fishing beats a good day of anything else for him take him out fishing.  
    
    Picnics, or what have you sounds good to me also.  Skiing was also a
    sport he enjoyed until his mid-60's.  Just a day of a daughter and a
    father day seemed to be what my dad enjoyed with all of us.
    
    Meg   

    Meg,
    
    What a slick Idea!

    I only wish I could have given him more of them. :-(
    
    Meg 

    Just a Thought but how about a Video of pictures from when you were 
    a baby and on through the years. there are many places out there that
    will take your photos and put music to them. Then you and your Dad can
    plan a special evening at home and just be with each other and
    remember.  My daughter is just 19 months, and I already did this with
    some old pictures.........tear jerker for sure..
    
                                 Bob

    re: .21
    
    Bob,
    
    I think you are right on target with the video pictures.
    
    I bartended a wedding some months back, and that is exactly what they
    had done with the video  - they had taken the pictures of the father
    and daughter through out the years, put them on video, and showed it
    while the father and daughter were dancing to "Daddy's Little Girl"
    
    The father had not known about it, and many of the guests became
    emotional.  It was one of the best things I have seen in all of the
    functions that I have done.
    
    john

  I have four daughters!  That's right!  Count'em..1,2,3,4. The oldest is 16,
 from there 14,12 and 10.  I have never in any way pushed them towards what would be 
 be considered "female stereotype".  They are quite independent and move towards
 what interests them.  I like it that way!

    re-reading this note... Lost of water has passed under the bridge here.
    I can say that Eva is growing and developing emotionally, and
    physically. She is still dad's little girl. But, she is becoming her
    own. And its nice to watch. I guess I am a very lucky man.

    
    My baby turned 16 this year.  A blond, blue-eyed, 6'0" whirlwind.
    She is becoming quite the volleyball player.  The school work still
    needs some work, but has improved dramatically in the last year. 
    Have to keep the double-barrel cleaned and oiled ;^).
    
    fred();

 .24> I can say that Eva is growing and developing emotionally, and
 .24> physically. She is still dad's little girl. But, she is becoming her
 .24> own. And its nice to watch. I guess I am a very lucky man.
 
      Ironies to think about...
 
      George Rauh is raising his daughter with what appears to be the same
      "model" as Suzanne Conlon's father did with her.  I wonder if little
      Eva's "articulation skills" will be as good as Suzanne's  :-)

    George Rauh's daughter will probably adore him, regardless.  :)

    My Dad and I are still so close - it's been one of the best aspects
    of my entire life.

    It showed in small ways sometimes - like when he went on long business
    trips and I was the only one who wrote him letters from home.  My Mom
    called him on the phone, but he kept getting these letters from me in
    my childish scrawl, filled with pictures and jokes.  He got the biggest
    kick out of them.

    He also told me about the time that we flew across the country (when
    I was three) and he met our airplane after going there ahead of us.
    He said that a stewardess was carrying me and I looked tired and bored,
    but then my entire facial expression changed when I spotted him.
    He said that I struggled to get out of the stewardess's arms and ran
    to him with this look on my face (like I was seeing heaven or something.)
    He said it was the best feeling in the world to have a young child look
    at him and run to him with so much adoration (even though he was used
    to the excitement he'd generate when he came home from work everyday.)

    He also told me that when he used to wake me up in the morning (when
    I was a baby), I would smile at the sound of his voice before I opened
    my eyes to see him.  (He always likes to tell me that I was a baby who
    would smile before I even opened my eyes when I woke up.)

    George - your daughter will have a lot of loving memories of you, too,
    when she grows up.

    Some of my favorite childhood memories of Dad...

    On the weekends, I was always the child he took with him when he had
    errands to run (like going to the hardware store or doing some other
    sort of errand.)

    In the car, he taught me to sing all his favorite songs (from when
    he was young.)  We sang together in the car for years and years,
    as I was growing up.  (What wonderful memories I have of the singing!)

    When we were shopping with my Mom in a big city one time (Boston),
    we got tired so we let my Mom continue to shop while we sat together
    on a bench near a central escalator.  After about 10 minutes of
    watching hundreds of people go by, my Dad turned to me and said,
    "Aren't People wonderful?  They come in all shapes and sizes..."  :)

    I also remember the things that Dad taught me (and this also happened
    a lot while we were in the car.)  One day, I told a children's rhyme
    to him that contained the 'n' word (I was 5.)  He explained to me
    why I should never use that word (and he explained it to me in a way
    that I would understand as a 5 year old.)

    I remember going to the movies with my family in the evenings when
    I was a small child.  My father would carry me out of the theater,
    and I would pretend to be asleep because it was so nice to be
    carried by my Dad (even when I was 4 or 5 years old.)

    Almost every photograph of me as a small child was taken with my
    father.  I'm holding his hand or he's carrying me or we're looking
    at each other (interacting in some way.)

    This is how I remember my young childhood.  He was holding my hand or
    carrying me, or else we were talking or singing together.

    It's an amazing collection of wonderful moments.

    I remember reading someplace (don't ask me where) that father/daughter
    relationships as described herein tend to produce very successful well
    adjusted daughters. YMMV
    
    Steve

    .27  Suzanne, I thought your father was the primary care giver of you
    when you were growing up???
    
     - like when he went on long business
     trips and I was the only one who wrote him letters from home.  My Mom
     called him on the phone, but he kept getting these letters from me in
    ect.

    I do my best to make sure she gets both sides of the picture. I have
    already spoken to the local day care providers, names with held
    purposely, about playing rap music that uses womens names in derogotry
    levels, I have tried to clairify issues about womens basket ball, base
    ball to where she has been told that men are sexist and will not allow
    her to play at a national level. We have baseball gloves, bat, etc. I
    know she has a shot attention span, I do what I can. Thats all I can
    ever do. Never force her to do what she doesn't want, yet be open to
    address many issues, true or false and clairfy them to my best. 
    
    
    Most of all, I am very thankful that I was able to get custody, that
    the work I did wasn't an waste. And I do what I possibly can to allow
    her mom to involve at every level of Eva's life. For as I have said,
    and will repeat. Children are not exclusively moms nor dads, they are
    on loan to us from God Almighty for 18 years. Then they are their own.
    
    

    RE: .30  
    
    .27  Suzanne, I thought your father was the primary care giver of you
    when you were growing up???
    
    > - like when he went on long business
    > trips and I was the only one who wrote him letters from home.  My Mom
    > called him on the phone, but he kept getting these letters from me in
    > ect.
    
    Dad *was* my primary care-giver when I was growing up.  He still went
    on long business trips occasionally.  (Not every year, but every few
    years he'd have to go away for 6 weeks or so.)
    
    He was still my primary parent, even when he wasn't there.
    
    Many families have situations where primary parents go out of town
    from time to time.  It doesn't change a thing in the child's view.

    Two of my Dad's sisters (who lived together) came to visit us once 
    when my Dad had to go out of town overnight.  They asked if I could
    go back to their house (two hours away by car) for a week one summer.
    They were going on vacation from work and wanted me to spend the
    week with them.  It was a 'last-minute' idea during their visit.

    I remember one of my Aunts saying (in the car as we were driving away),
    "Your poor Dad.  He's going to be so upset to come home and find that
    you've gone away for a week.  We'll call him every day, ok?"

    It made me realize that THEY knew that he was my primary care-giver
    and that he was going to feel somewhat 'lost' to find me gone when
    he came home.  (He was.)
    
    We called him a lot and I still had a great time with his sisters 
    (my Aunts) on their vacation. I was very happy to go home again, too.

    Thanks Suzanne, for those entries. Sometimes I wonder about it all. If
    mine cares or not. Sometimes she give me signals that she would miss me
    and other times....:) ...nope!:)
    
    Tonight she is with her mom for an over nighter. The will go out to
    Pizza Hut or Burger King for a whing-ding.:) 
    
    One Saturday morning, I was very tired, and fell asleep after I had
    made her breakfast. Toons were on, and I felt her tucking me in with a
    blanket. It was nice. I don't know what I would have done if I had
    never found her or her mom after the kidnapping.
    
    

    George, your daughter does care a great deal, I'm sure!!
    
    Kids don't always show it, but the other things you've said about
    her make it clear that she cares very, very much!