Conference quark::mennotes

A "guy thing" I do is to keep driving in the same direction, even if my wife
insists that we're lost, and furthermore I don't stop to ask directions.  She
tells me that her ex used to explain the same behavior by saying that if he
kept driving for another 24K miles or so, he'd at least end up where he
started.  But most of the time, I *DO* get where we want to go, even if it
takes a few minutes longer to get there.  (She, on the other hand, is fond of
telling me to turn onto streets that go nowhere near where we want to go...)

			Steve

    No .. cycling through the channels is most assuredly not a "guy" thing.
    My daughters do it to the extent that it drives me up the wall - and -
    believe me - they ain't guys.
    
    Bubba

    Yeah, my daughter clicks through channels  too. Its dependent on who 
    has the remote control in their hand. The guy thing is that we usually 
    get to be the ones holding the controller most of the time, therefore 
    clicking through channels seems like a guy thing. The issue is one of 
    power I think. Why is it that the males get to control the T.V. in the
    household, most of the time ? 

     Jim

      <<< Note 15.0 by JURAN::VALENZA "Preserving our noting heritage." >>>

>    Okay, I admit it.  I will often hold the remote control and cycle
>    through the TV stations for long stretches of time.  I keep hearing

	Channel surfing is an equal opportunity sport, however ususally
	guys are too polite to start ranting and raving when the women
	wander through the TV offerings. Women, on the other hand, have
	no problem pointing out that they do not appreciate the "men's
	competition" portion of the sport.


Jim

re .4

		yea verily!!!

    
    
    
     I concur:-)
    
    David

    Okay, then, what about this asking directions thing?  It never even
    occurs to me to ask directions; if I am lost, I just keep going, except
    maybe I'll stop to open a map.  Even I moved to New England, with
    its incomprehensible and poorly marked road system, I *still* don't ask
    for directions.
    
    -- Mike

    I just saw something on TV about men being reluctant to ask directions.
    Sorry, I've never understood that.  I never hesitate to ask directions
    if I'm lost.  Maybe that comes from my military background - if you call
    for artillery or an air strike you kin'a like to make damned sure you
    know where you are and where you want the stuff dropped - otherwise it
    could ruin your whole damned day.

    Bubba

    Most men I know are hesitant to ask for directions. As I get older
    and more mature (or perhaps just feel I have less time to waste :-))
    I am getting more likely to ask when lost. I think part of it comes
    from being raised to be self sufficient. Boys are, or were, taught
    to make it on their own. Girls are taught that asking for help is
    ok.

    There are other guy things but I can't think of one at the moment. My
    wife often comments about something my son and I do by saying "must be
    a guy thing." I suspect that many women have a list of "guy things"
    that they really don't understand and men can't explain.

    Channel surfing, however, is definitely a universal thing. My wife is
    as bad as I am. :-) Of course having 3 TVs and VCRs is helping keep
    this little problem from getting out of hand. :-) Though I admit that
    unless there is some thing I really want to watch I'd usually rather watch
    what she's watching then watch alone. Yet an other guy thing? :-)
    
    			Alfred

    
    "Guy things I've noticed"...
    
    Big expensive toys. Its partly a marketing thing, but in general, men
    like larger, less frequent purchases. Audio equipment, cars, tools,
    etc. Women do accessories, clothes, make-up, jewelry, "collectibles".
    
    Men's "collecting" hobbies have resale value. Men's hobbies of stamp
    collecting, coin collecting, comic collecting, model-railroading, card
    collecting, have sufficient resale value so that you can actually look
    at your "hobby" as an investment. Women's "collecting" hobbies -
    Hummel, Goebel, miniatures, shadow boxes, curio's, animals, etc... tend
    to collect dust more than money.
    
    Most men steer clear of anything remotely "pretty" in the feminine
    sense, unless they can't avoid it - i.e. a loved one gave it to them.
    You'd rarely catch a man with  a lace photo frame, or needlepoint
    pillow. Men's clothing is tailored. No frills, no lace. Gone are the
    days of laced shirt arm ends, previously a sign of gentry. 
    
    Many men take sports MUCH MORE seriously than women do. Men are more
    likely to play an organized team sport well into their 30's and 40's.
    Men tend to bet on games, and watching sports events is a way to
    socialize. (How many women are organizing Super Bowl Parties?)
    
    Many men hold fewer grudges, while getting anger out in the open
    faster. Sometimes with a fist. (Its something I read somewhere...)
    Hence two boys can fight in a school yard today and shoot marbles
    together tomorrow. Two girls in a shouting match today will still be
    enemies in their 80's. (I'm exaggerating for effect...)
    
    Guys put each other down in jest. And women don't get it. I've heard
    men play the dozens (leave mom out of it), and the object is to deliver
    good lines. Insulting is part of it, but its an art form. A really good
    insult is admirable. A weak one gets you boo'ed. A lot of women I know
    can't stay sufficiently detatched to enter into this "sport". When
    women exchange insults like this, hair pulling may be next.

    After I moved to New England, I realized that most of the time it was
    an exercise in futility asking people for directions; the directions
    they gave always seemed to assume that you know the area in question:
    ("Go down to the next-to-the-last traffic light and turn left" or "Go
    two blocks past where the Necco factory used to be and turn right.")
    
    Alternately, they use landmarks and street names that never occur on
    any map: ("Take 93 to the lower deck, but don't get onto the expressway; 
    take the Longfellow Bridge exit off Storrow Drive.")
    
    So, I read maps, and if that doesn't work, I look for a firehouse. 
    Firefighters can give clear, concise, understandable directions --
    after all, they HAVE to know how to get somewhere.
    
    And yes, of course, I do channel surf -- in my family, it's much more
    a male thing...

    Directions in New England are given, as Andrew says, in a way that is
    incomprehensible to outsiders.  For the record, you are an outsider if
    you, both of your parents, and all four of your grandparents were not
    born in New England.
    
    I'm extremely reluctant to ask for directions.  But I usually consult
    maps before I go someplace new, and I always have good maps in my car. 
    If I become (apparently) hopelessly lost, I will break down and ask.  I
    view this behavior as a control thing.  I don't want to admit that I'm
    not in command.  And I do believe it's a "guy" thing, instilled by our
    societal style, which wrongly taught me as a child that "guys are
    supposed to be in control" while "girls are supposed to be dependant."
    
    -dick

    
    I channel surf.
    
    I will ask directions sooner than most men, but later than most women,
    when I find myself lost or unsure of how to get where I'm going.
    
    -Jody

    A friend of mine from Colorado once gave me the ultimate insult when I
    tried to give her directions to my place; she said that I had been
    living in New England too long.  After rereading my directions to her,
    I had to agree--they were terrible.

    I find it is helpful when the roads are long, straight, and clearly
    marked.  Last summer, I was staying with a friend in Lakewood, a suburb
    of Denver, and went into Denver to see a movie at the Mayan theatre.  I
    swung onto 6th avenue going east, took it to Broadway, and turned right
    and went south for a bit.  A piece of cake.  I have never lived in
    Denver, but just from visiting it several times I can make my way
    around with little fear of really getting lost.  Such is not the case
    with New England cities like Boston or Providence, with their spaghetti
    street layouts, and even though I have driven in these cities several
    times I still find them completely confusing.  When you live in a place
    that has at least a modicum of rationality to its roads, it is easy to
    internalize a sense of direction and make your way around without
    having to ask directions.  But when I am driving on roads that wind
    around every which way, I am hopelessly lost.  But I rarely ask for
    directions anyway.  I am more likely to ask for directions when I am
    walking than when I am driving, though, and in act I did that just
    recently when I was walking on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston, trying to
    find the Nickelodeon Theatre.  But that was the exception, not the
    rule.

    Colorado Springs doesn't have as desirable a street arrangement as some
    cities do, but it helps when a mountain range is to your immediate
    west.  If the mountains are on your right, you know you are going
    south; if they are on your left, you know you are going north; and so
    forth.  In Colorado Springs, people regularly use the mountains as a
    landmark when giving directions ("you'll be going towards the
    mountains, and then turn left at the light".)  But I didn't ask for
    directions much when I lived there, either.  Maybe that's why I have
    such a large map collection.

    -- Mike

    RE:15
    Only when they're loud and smell badly.;)

    Re .15
    
    Only if you deliberately let it rip is farting a guy thing to do. 
    There seems to be some "Gotta do the socially inappropriate thing to
    prove we're not knuckling under to what our mothers told us" drive.  I
    think it's a cultural thing, not a generic one.  As is the long
    resonant burp thing - I used to work with a guy who prided himself on
    being able to say a certain 8-syllable name in one continuous burp.
    
    -dick

    How about stiring you coffee with a screw driver? Or how about having
    your clothing orginized via the floor method. As in the dirtier the
    article is the closer it comes to the laundry basket? 
    
    Or keeping your shop like you keep you desk at work?:) Wounder how many
    of the guys do that? Wounder if their shops look like their cubes with
    the tools traced out on the walls?:) And hangers to hang them? 8)
    
    

re:15.14 (JURAN::VALENZA)
>New England cities like Boston or Providence, with their spaghetti
>street layouts,... When you live in a place that has at least a modicum 
>of rationality to its roads,...Colorado Springs doesn't have as desirable a 
>street arrangement as some cities do,

All of this assumes that straight streets laid out in a grid are desirable. 
I disagree. The most interesting cities are cities that do not have this kind 
of street pattern. Would you rather wander the streets of Denver or wander 
the streets of a city like Boston, or most European cities, or cities like 
Istanbul or Cairo?

Too much urban planning, where everything is straight and orderly, where 
nothing catches your eye as you walk down the street, where people live in 
one place and work in another and play in another and shop in another, has 
been the death of American cities. And all of this to make driving easier.

Mike

    I'll take the streets of Denver over the streets of Boston any day of
    the week.
    
    -- Mike

    re .20, what streets I would take would depend on the *stores* that
    were lining the streets.   Maybe that's a "female thing"!  Who cares
    about the streets?  It's the stores that matter!!!!
    
    Lorna
    

    I try to "get lost" every once in a while. When I move, or I start a new
    job, or I go to a new area for any reason, I'll try to take a random street
    to see if it will get me to my destination. If it turns out to be a dead
    end, so what, I turn around. If it takes me in the opposite direction, so
    what, I'll eventually hit some road that I'm familiar with.

    It helps me to learn my new surroundings, and it helps me figure out how
    to get to various places like gas stations, convenience stores, restaurants,
    etc.

    Of course if I'm in a hurry or I'm really truly desperately lost, I'll
    give in and ask for directions.

    - Jim

    Hmmm. I tend to prefer to blunder my way through, or puzzle it out
    myself from maps (though I might have to stop somewhere and _buy_ a map
    first - and yes, I have bought a map and gone back to the car and
    figured out the way myself, rather than simply asking the clerk for
    directions!).
    
    [Note: "New England navigation," aka "keep turning in the direction of
    your destination, and eventually you'll find a way through," works
    rather well among the twisting and turning New England back roads, but
    it fails horribly in the wide-open country out west. If you miss one
    turn there, it may be _days_ before you get another chance... ;-)]
    
    -b

    A city like Boston is quite clearly superior to nearly any
    sprawling mid-western metropolis when it comes to pedestrian
    convenience.  It's a matter of size.  You really *can* walk
    around Boston proper - without resorting to cabs or mass
    transit (though both are available).  Granted the layout is
    confusing for a stranger and maps aren't always a lot of help...
    
    Living there with a car, on the other hand, is much more difficult 
    (though I've done it, loved it, and will do it again).  I can see 
    why people hate to drive in Boston, but I find it easy - Boston
    was the first city I drove in, and I figured it was like that 
    everywhere :-) 
    
    As for asking for directions - I try to ask ahead of time if
    going someplace confusing (like Somerville, Dorchester or JP) - 
    but in much of Boston itself (Downtown, North End, Beacon Hill, 
    Back Bay, South End) I just need an address.  Once on the way, I
    do the "guy thing" and drive around in circles before stopping
    and asking a stranger for help :-)
    
    /Greg

Why is it that men on mediterranean beaches (or is it Mediterranean
men on beaches) seem to be forever adjusting themselves?

;^)

joyce

    I never get lost!!   (place "Home Improvement" growl here)

    re .25, maybe it's because so many of the women on Mediterranean
    beaches are topless or naked?   (from what I've heard)
    
    Lorna
    

   Most guys believe that they're supposed to know who to fix things.  This
   is a responsibility that guys have historically taken upon themselves to
   compensate for the fact that they never clean the bathroom.  A guy can 
   walk into a bathroom containing a colony of commode fungus so advanced
   that it is registered to vote, but the guy would never dream of cleaning
   it, because he has to keep himself rested in case a Mechanical Emergency
   breaks out.

  

re .27

Hi Lorna,

no, it doesn't appear to be restricted to, or more prevalent at the top-less
beaches.  Just anywhere on the beach.  I suspect it's also cultural as it's
something I've not noticed on New Zealand beaches.  What about yours?

regards,

joyce

>> Why is it that men on mediterranean beaches (or is it Mediterranean
>> men on beaches) seem to be forever adjusting themselves?

Well, you really gotta be a guy to understand this one.  It's the same
reason you see baseball players forever adjusting themselves.  Once you've
slid headfirst into third, everything's out of place!  ;)

>> Why is it that men on mediterranean beaches (or is it Mediterranean
>> men on beaches) seem to be forever adjusting themselves?

It's because you're looking Joyce.

The Italians, as an example, use hand-signs as part of their language. They 
can insult each other, tease each other, complement each other, all with out 
saying a word.

An example. Extend your arm towards a man, left or right it doesn't matter.
Now tuck the two middle fingers into your palm and clamp them in place with
your thumb. The little and first fingers should be extended. That's called
'Cornuto'. Your insulting the man by telling him that he's the kind of guy
who let's his wife betray him.

Have you noticed how mediterranean men will play volleyball right in front
of an attractive lady/ies even when the beach is empty. They'll keep rubbing
their hands over their bodies - pretending to knock the sand off - and 
adjust themselves all the time. They're displaying themselves. The effect is 
heightened if the guy wears a G-string or scampy swim-wear to emphasise their
manhood. 

.31> 'Cornuto'. Your insulting the man by telling him that he's the kind of guy
.31> who let's his wife betray him.
    
    Cornuto is the horn and it doesn't mean anything as specific as that.
    
    It's a general curse.  Giving the gesture a twist at the wrist, it
    becomes malocchio, the evil eye, a worse curse.

I don't know what part of Italy you come from Michael - but that's what my 
friends tell me 'Cornuto' means.

    Gotta go with .33 - cornuto is the sign given to tell someone he's a
    cuckold.  But there are two ways of giving the sign described - with
    the palm of your hand toward you or with it toward the object.  Cornuto
    is the first way.  With your palm turned away from you, it's the evil
    eye, a curse of banishment.
    
    -dick

    HA!  re .1.... men NEVER NEVER NEVER ask directions when they damn well
    know they are lost. why do they do this? Why do they refuse to turn
    into the nearest gas station and ask in order to avoid extra hours 
    of driving in circles?  And why do they growl at there s.o. if they so
    much as whisper...um..excuse me, but i think we're lost, you're going 
    the wrong way or whatever. 
    
    Would they not be considered "macho" if they did stop and ask? 
    I mean, really, who the hell cares if you ask directions or not? 
    It will get you to where you're going. 
    
    Ps: I did not read all replies so excuse me if this has been mentioned 
    already. 
    
            

>    HA!  re .1.... men NEVER NEVER NEVER ask directions when they damn well
>    know they are lost. 

 You apparently hang out with the wrong sort of men. I'm usually in too much
of a hurry to spend much time looking around. I'll stop and ask the first 
reasonable looking person I see.

    No wonder people never ask me directions; nobody thinks I am very
    reasonable looking.  :-)
    
    -- Mike
    
    (Actually, come to think of it, people do ask me directions, but only
    when I am not from the area myself and cannot answer their question.)

re .31

so what/how do men feel when that sort of "guy" thing is totally ignored
by the female population because no one's bothered to explain that it's
macho body language?  haha!  Worse, how is one *supposed* to respond?!

'cornuto' - Well, I'll take your word for it.  Not quite a gesture I'd like
to try out ;^)

regards,

joyce

    If I get lost (which I never do), I'd stop at a pay-phone and look for
    a map.  Guys love maps.

    When my wife and I get lost my wife would rather hunt around on our own
    for hours rather than ask for directions or stop and get a map.
    
    Someone else said that their husband would hunt around for hours, so
    I don't see this as a guy gal thing... just individual.
    
    Jeff

    Whenever my ex-husband and I were driving together, and got lost, he
    would start yelling at me, and telling me it was my fault, regardless
    of the actual situation.  It caused some miserable times for me.  To
    this day, if I'm riding in a car with a man, and we get lost, my
    reaction is to cringe, because I'm afraid I'm about to be yelled at and
    berated for my stupidity.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.34
    
    No, no, no!
    
    The evil eye is with a half twist of the wrist.

The Economist reported this week that Paul Gasgoine, a British soccer player now
playing for an Italian team, was fined $13,000 for belching during a TV inteview.

The moral of the story "When in Rome, don't let rip."

Here's a classic "guy" thing:

Did you ever see a guy walk down a street and bypass the opportunity to 
leap up and touch-tag an awning? 


:>)
C.

Re: .44

Leap up?  I usually have to duck to avoid whacking my head!

			Steve

    How many men have a chair in their home which everyone in the family
    knows it as being "Dad's Chair ?" You know, like Archie Bunker's chair.
    Mine is the living room chair. The wife and kids know better than to
    sit in it when I enter the room. My father and grandfathers all had
    their chair, so maybe its an inherited thing ?


    Jim

    I don't know if this has been mentioned earlier in this string.. I have
    read through most but not all of it.
    
    Boys usually throw rocks into the water when at beaches/ponds, girls
    don't as often.
    
    Also, I have noticed when a reatively light weight throwable object
    needs to be moved a short distance, often guys will toss it to one
    another.  Women don't, (usually), they get up, walk over, and hand
    the object to you.
    
    Jeff

    How about flatching under your blanket at night and whiffing the aroma.

re:          <<< Note 15.48 by AIMHI::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>

>    How about flatching under your blanket at night and whiffing the aroma.

I prefer 'flatching' in the bath tub, then biting the bubbles!

NOT.

(I think talking about such things is definitely a guy gene.)

    There's also the "Toilet Seat" in an up position?
    
    Most of all, why do guys make those ungodly sounds at full
    volume?  No words, just bellows, grunts, hoots, barks,
    strange sounds.  
    
    Another thing, if arranging something or designing something,
    why is it that if it fits there it goes vs. the asthetic
    value of placing it in the right place or making it functional?
    
    Joanne

    
    
    > "Toilet seat" in the up position
    
       I am one of nine children who lived in a one bathroom house. My
    sisters and Mother broke me of that habit real quick :-)
    
    > why do guys make those ungodly sounds at full volume
    
      Pure unadulterated manhood :-)
    
    David

    Toilet seats should be left in the position last used.
    
    Any other algorithm wastes time and energy.
    
    Why would anyone would sit down on a toilet without looking first?!

    >Toilet seats should be left in the position last used.
    >
    >Any other algorithm wastes time and energy.

    humm.. rewinding the counter of this algo. back to zero, we see that
    the seat must be down 'cause when we buy the seat it comes with
    its cover down (not sure of this, others can confirm).

    i think this question shows the deep difference between men and
    women , this seat syndrome has been with us since the modern days
    and has caused many a conflict in households between men and women.

    hope this helps.

    \bye
    \nasser

    re:.53
    
    No, no, no.
    
    The algorithm is to leave the seat as is after use, not as found before
    use.

    Mike, that's the best defense I've ever heard. Bravo!

    - Jim (A proud toilet-seat-leaver-upper)

    The seat 'should' be left down.  Why? Because its the thoughtful thing
    to do realizing that the next user might be a woman, or a man who needs
    to use the facility for a BM.
    
    UNLESS you have a five year old son who doesn't care which way the
    seat is.... and.... is perfectly happy to pee on the seat for the
    enjoyment of the next user.
    
    I have been working on breaking him of that habit.  Like having him
    clean the toilet each time I find a wet seat.
    
    A guy thing to do... sure is, but its gross in this case.
    
    Jeff

    Gee. I always figured one was supposed to leave the seat (and the lid)
    down to prevent the dog/cat/baby from drinking out of (or falling into)
    the toilet. 
    
    Those who don't have a dog, cat, or baby, or don't care what they drink
    from or fall into, could certainly make their own house rules about
    this (apparently) major issue. ;-)
    
    -b

    I was always taught that one leaves the seat and the lid down because a
    toilet isn't the most enchanting pool to look into.  To the contrary,
    sometimes (as when the water isn't working) it is rather disenchanting.
    
    -dick

    Yes leave it down. You could accidentally drop your tooth brush or comb
    into an open commode.

    Jim

    lets talk about something say.. different !....why do you think more
    men like chess and women dont? why are there so many more men chess players
    and very few women? is chess a man game? it does not require force,
    so what is the woman excuse? 

    hope this helps in changing the subject ^)

    \bye
    \nasser
    who_is_looking_for_a_woman_chess_player_for_fun_and_games :)

    re .63, maybe the woman thinks it's boring.
    
    Lorna
    

    
     How about when guys talk about things using numbers, contractions, and 
    acronyms. For example, a conversation that my girlfriend recently walked in
    on, " Well, my three 0' five H.O. was only pushing two hundred at fifty
    five hundred." translation - My 305 high output engine only produced
    200 horsepower at 5500 rpm.
     
     She just walked away kind of bewildered mumbling something about the
    things guys talk about, and that was before we even got into the
    conversation about the fine entertainment on the USA channels "Up All
    Night."
    
    Tony
    
     

    
    
     Tony,
    
      :-)
    
    David

    RE: .65
    
    Ya know, Tony, the metric system is gonna just kill manly talk like
    that!!
    
    jt

    Awhile back, I was talking with a salesman in a stereo store, and he
    mentioned that, on average, women have more acute hearing than men, yet
    men purchase something like 90% of all hi-fi equipment.
    
    So how did stereo equipment become such a "guy thing?"
    
    
    

    
    Hi, let me know what you think of this:
    
    Yesterday on the dutch news they mentioned that carsalesmen always
    talk to the men even when the wife standing next to him. They were
    bothered by this because women usually make the decision for the 
    looks, color and idealism of use. The males however usualy want to
    know how much fuel it uses or engine capacity.
    
    The salesmen were told this way that they discriminate women and
    through that miss out on certain sales.
    I believe that this is true! People just never realized it!
    
    Mork from Ork
    

    Yes, numbers! Scores of pro ball games and stats on individual players,
    teams, etc. Numbers of preformance of cars, computers, etc. Seldom
    preformances of stocks. Funny people cannot understand that economics
    and money are two words that go together well. But start talking
    numbers and economics and you glaze the eyes and brains with slumber.:)
    Mention numbers and money of pro-ball and you get them sitting on the
    edge of their seats.:) 
    
    

Re: .68

The most recent issue of Stereophile had an article on exactly this.  There
were two main theories proposed:

	1.  Most of the stereo equipment, especially the high-end stuff,
	    is considered ugly by women.

	2.  Because most men have hearing losses in the high frequencies,
	    manufacturers emphasize equipment which has a lot of "sizzle"
	    in the treble.  Women, whose high-frequency hearing tends to
	    be better, often find it painful to listen to equipment that
	    men think sounds good.

I'd also add that men seem to enjoy spending lots of money on collecting
"toys" to show how superior they are, and women find this pursuit pointless.

				Steve

    In _The Drifters_, one of James Michener's characters speculates that men 
    who focus money, time, and attention on intricate and powerful stereo
    equipment may do so to compensate for their lack of understanding of 
    and/or control over their relationships with women.
    
    ;)
    aq

    RE: .71
    
    I can't agree with either of those idea's. I think that the reason
    just comes down to the fact that women seem to not be interested in
    the "sonic" qualities of music. They are interested in the music,
    but if the bass is alittle too boomy or the midrange weak, they
    don't care. It bothers me if the sound of the song is wrong.
    
    Marc H.

>	1.  Most of the stereo equipment, especially the high-end stuff,
>	    is considered ugly by women.

 Could be. My wife LOVES the look of bang and olufsen stereo equipment.
I think it's overpriced and I never have any idea how to work the stuff. :-)

>	2.  Because most men have hearing losses in the high frequencies,
>	    manufacturers emphasize equipment which has a lot of "sizzle"
>	    in the treble.  Women, whose high-frequency hearing tends to
>	    be better, often find it painful to listen to equipment that
>	    men think sounds good.

 Seems like a poorly thought out theory, given the fact that most modern
hi fidelity stereo equipment is equipped with a treble control. Except
on a B&O unit, it may be difficult to find. :-)

>I'd also add that men seem to enjoy spending lots of money on collecting
>"toys" to show how superior they are, and women find this pursuit pointless.

 Interesting concept. I buy things because I like them, not because I'm
in some sort of imagined competition.

>    I can't agree with either of those idea's. I think that the reason
>    just comes down to the fact that women seem to not be interested in
>    the "sonic" qualities of music. They are interested in the music,
>    but if the bass is alittle too boomy or the midrange weak, they
>    don't care. It bothers me if the sound of the song is wrong.

 I know my wife is not "all women," but she listens to songs whereas I listen
to music. I'm far more interested in the aural qualities than she is; she is
more interested in the lyrical content then I am (typically.) She doesn't
care for instrumentals, I do. Maybe it has to do with women's apparent
greater concern with language...

    re .74
    
    Mark, B&O *is* grossly overpriced if musical bang for your buck is at
    stake.  Their aesthetics are great but sonically they suck.  When
    talking about high end start with Krell or something and work up.  A
    lot of those boxes are really ugly.

    RE: .75
    
    I agree....I think you are on to it.
    
    Marc H.

    I dunno.  I assembled my stereo based on specific criteria that I
    myself established with intent that it would produce sound that I
    would enjoy hearing without bankrupting me.  I wouldn't have a B&O
    system if you gave it to me - I'd sell it and by decent equipment.
    
    My wife also doesn't think much of instrumental music.  She thinks a
    lot of lyrics are downright dumb, but she doesn't feel that wordless
    music speaks to her.  I can buy that.  De gustibus non est disputandum.
    She is also pained by listening to sopranos.  Says it hurts physically.
    
    Question:  Is the wordless/with-lyrics thing sex-linked?
    
    -dick

    Personally.......
    
    
    	I like talk radio....8^)
    
    Ken

    I think it's a matter of how much money a person has and how they
    budget what the money they have.  For one thing, men (on average) still
    earn a lot more money than women, so that means they have more money to
    spend on stereo equipment, and can, therefore, spend more on it.  The
    other thing is that most women may have something else that they would
    rather spend their money on than stereo equipment, such as a nice piece
    of jewelry, for example.  Most times in the past when I might have
    spent money on expensive stereo equipment, I've bought antique jewelry
    instead.  The way I see it, I can still listen to the music on cheap
    equipment, and then have the jewelry, too.  If I spent all my money on
    expensive stereo equipment, I'd have no money left for jewelry or
    clothes.  Of course, if I could afford it all, I'd like to have it all,
    but I can't.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .72, it's funny, because the guy I dated who had the best stereo
    system, was also the one who was most into control?  
    
    I don't miss him, but sometimes I miss the stereo.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

My wife is very much into music, being an amateur musician herself.  She
is very particular about how a stereo system reproduces sound and notices
things that I don't, such as the "blatt" of a trumpet.  She is intrigued
by toys (indeed, she won't let me replace my laserdisc player unless I can
find another one with a display door that hides the disc tray, whcih she
thinks is neat), but doesn't see the point in spending $1000 on a set of
speaker wires, as some men seem to.

I don't agree with those who say women aren't interested in how things sound,
though I imagine that most don't get caught up in the "tweek" mentality some
men do.

				Steve

    �For one thing, men (on average) still
    �earn a lot more money than women, so that means they have more
    �money to
    
    Yha know, there is this ol song that seems to begin to wear on yha that
    gets to the point that one wants to throw up. Please cut out the cliche
    or I will do some Bible thing-ie on you about eating the apple. 

    Re .83
    
    Got a problem with facts, have we?

    RE: .84
    
    What does the reply's logic, if any, have to do with explaining why
    men seem to enjoy Hi-Fi?
    
    Marc H.

    No problem. Just getting tired of it. As in many of us are reminded on
    a hourly basis and its just an ol song. And If you look up the stats
    you will find that women who entered the work force in the 80's have
    equaled and/or surpassed their mail counter parts. And if someone wishs
    to discuss things with people openly vs polorization you have to
    lighten up Some. Or as the feminist would say, "you just dont get it"

    re .85, what it has to do with it, is that there are probably a lot of
    women who would like to have expensive stereo equipment, but don't
    because they can't afford it.  
    
    There are more men who make enough money to have expensive stereo
    equipment, than there are women who do, and that might have something
    to do with why more men seem to have expensive stereo equipment.  Get
    it?
    
    Lorna
    

>    
>    Got a problem with facts, have we?

What facts are those?  And their sources?  Sounds like somebody gave their
opinion about how they think people are paid.  An opinion, though.

    RE .88
    
    Statistics, such as those in the United States Census figures of 1990,
    indicate that males average higher pay for a given job than females. 
    They also indicate that males hold a higher percentage of high-paying
    jobs than do females.  It's pretty clear, then, that women *on average*
    have less discretionary income, given that it costs a woman just as
    much as it costs a man to rent an apartment or buy a car or visit the
    grocery.
    
    Facts enough for you?
    
    -dick

    re .86, well, I didn't enter the workforce in the '80's, I entered the
    workforce in the '60's, and since I'm a secretary, I don't have very
    many male (or mail) counterparts.
    
    Take your own advice and lighten up, yourself!  Gee, if it bores you
    just ignore it.  
    
    Lorna
    

>    re .85, what it has to do with it, is that there are probably a lot of
>    women who would like to have expensive stereo equipment, but don't
>    because they can't afford it.  

I have seen some women that do indeed want an expensive <something>.  What
goes unsaid a lot of times is that they bought some other expensive 
<something> instead.  I know a woman that owns her own home but complains
about not having things like this (and the fact that some men have them>.

I think the reasons there is a discrepancy is much more involved in the
old 'men make much more money than women' "fact".

>    Facts enough for you?

Opinions, still (except the wage study pointer).

I had been a supervisor here at DEC with both men and women reporting to me.
I got to see the salaries of those people; I also got to hear the women
complain about men getting paid more than women.  I asked if they themselves
felt they were 'underpaid' and some said yes, they were.  The funny part is
that those 'underpaid' women were actually getting paid MORE than the men.

I beleive this is another one of those "if you tell someone something long
enough, it becomes a fact".

-Joe

    re .91, as I had said in my first reply, I think it's a combination of
    the two.
    
    Lorna
    

    �I entered the workforce in the '60's, and since I'm a secretary, 
    �I don't have very
    
    I could have flipped burgers, pumped gas, stocked shelves. I went back
    to night school. I am sure you have the time as many good people do to
    make a better life for themselves.:) 
    
    Peace, Love, and Handguns

    RE: .87
    
    No...I don't "get it" because it isn't true. My Hi-Fi system was built
    from homemade and second hand parts, because it was the only way I
    could afford good sound on my budget. Your argument is wrong.
    
    Marc H.

    re .92, it's not just a case of women in equal jobs getting paid less than
    men. The fact is that women, on average, make less money than men. 
    It's usually because women - for whatever reason (that's not the point
    here) - tend to hold lower paying jobs than men do.  Secretaries,
    receptionist, waitresses, childcare workers, etc., all make less money
    than truck drivers, or most maintenance workers or garbage men, for
    example.  
    
    Lorna
    

    .96 If you wish to pre destine yourself to comeriserate(sp) with others.
    Then fine, the world is a bad-bad place and you have your cross to bare
    with the rest of us. If you wish to do something about it, then get off your
    pity pot and do it. 
    
    

    re .94, you know, George, I am not complaining about anything here in
    this note, so I don't know what your problem is.  For the most part, I
    have and have had a very good life, and I am certainly not complaining
    about it here.  All I was doing was giving my opinion as to why more
    men seem to have expensive stereos, than women.  I can't understand why
    you seem to feel such animosity towards me, but can only imagine that
    it's a combination of your having no interest in, or understanding of
    feminism, and your having been hurt in the past by women.  I'm sorry
    that your negative experiences have closed you off to learning a better
    understanding of the world and people around you.
    
    Peace, Love and may you someday actually learn to spell,
    
    Lorna
    

    re .95, well, just because you built your own hi-fi system doesn't mean
    all the men in the world have.  But, you certainly must be resourceful
    and clever at electronics.  Good for you.
    
    Lorna
    

>    here) - tend to hold lower paying jobs than men do.  Secretaries,
>    receptionist, waitresses, childcare workers, etc., all make less money
>    than truck drivers, or most maintenance workers or garbage men, for
>    example.  

This implies that there are no male (receptionists, waitrons, childcare
workers); it also implies there are no female truck drivers, garbage 'men',
maintenance workers, etc.  How do THEIR salaries compare within those
groups?  Does a male secretary make more than a female secretary (etc)?


-Joe

    Lorna,
    
    No problems. Just getting tired of this old song. Like someone saying
    that womens place is home in the kitchen. And that is wrong idea. And
    your constant slamming of this pity pot seems a real issue that you
    wish nothing to do about execpt complain about. Nothing personal at
    all. More facts? How about that in 1969 three times the amount of money
    to put the man on the moon was spent on cosmetics alone. 
    
    Geo
    
    ps I always have room to improve inspelling

>    Statistics, such as those in the United States Census figures of 1990,
>    indicate that males average higher pay for a given job than females. 

I'd prefer getting data from a financial area (IRS) than the census 
(considering some of the stories told about people's love of filling
them out).  Also, were very specific salaries listed (as off a W-2 form)
for very specific jobs?  How broad were the categories given?  I would
not consider comparing a consulting engineer's pay with a software
engineer II's pay if they were both pigeonholed under 'software engineer'
or 'computer programmer'.

>    have less discretionary income, given that it costs a woman just as
>    much as it costs a man to rent an apartment or buy a car or visit the
>    grocery.

Depending on their individual tastes, of course :-)

Depending on their individual tastes, of course :-)

	I guess then spaggetti o's are out, huh? ;-)


Glen

> I'd prefer getting data from a financial area (IRS) than the census 
> (considering some of the stories told about people's love of filling
> them out).

People have more reason to lie about their income on tax forms than
on census forms.

Getting back to the question of stereo equipment, perhaps the question
should be "why do men spend a greater percentage of their disposable
income on stereo equipment than do women?"  Assuming, of course, that
they do.

    In another company, when the female Finance/Payroll person left, a male
    (younger and with less experience) was hired at a little more than 1 1/2 
    times her salary.  When he left, a female of roughly comparable age/
    experience was hired at a little more than 1/2 what he had been paid.
    
    Here at Digital, I've only known of a few male secretaries.  I've often
    wished I could see their salaries, reviews, years experience, edu,
    proficiency, etc.
    
    aq
    
    
     

 I think Lorna hit the nail on the head tens of notes ago. Many women prefer
clothes and jewelry and such to stereos. end of story.

 There are men who make X and spend Y on stereo equipment, and women who
make 2X and spend Y/4 on stereo equipment. It's a simple matter of priorities.

>
> I think Lorna hit the nail on the head tens of notes ago. Many women prefer
>clothes and jewelry and such to stereos. end of story.

And the wiser of two things to buy.  Those items are portable and can be
enjoyed/used much more :-).

> There are men who make X and spend Y on stereo equipment, and women who
>make 2X and spend Y/4 on stereo equipment. It's a simple matter of priorities.

Of course, there are some people that make X$ and spend 2X$ on steroes :-)

    and women have big stamina to shop, men get tired quickly shopping.

    when i was a little kid i used to have to go to the mall with my mother
    and sisters to buy me a trouser, they spend the whole day in the mall !
    they never get tired ! i collapse on the floor after one hour in
    exhaustion , but they just keep going , i find this is an amazing thing,
    i get bored from the mall after like 5 minutes from being in it, yet
    many women seem to shop there all day from one shop to the other
    with no problems !!

    i think this is another one of the deep difference between men and
    women. make sure you make a note of it. 

    \bye
    \nasser

    Mark, I can rationalize the X & Y and the 2X on the
    basis of chormosome, the Y/4 must be the result of
    stray hormones.
    
    ed

    How about this one.... The guys with the sneakers that stink sooooooo
    badly! WoW! Talk about guy things to do. I re-read some yuck yucks that
    were written in another file. And remember this guy who showed up to
    workout with me, and had the worse case of rotten foot known to the
    human nose! It was soooo bad, you could melt a driveway in the middle
    of a raging Nor-eastern snow storm!:) 
    
    Lord only knows how he made it thru gym class in high school. But, I am
    certain that there were many folks checking around to see if some small
    animal didn't curl up and die someplace close of the sneakers.:)

    I knew a guy who bought some heavy-duty odor-eaters for his sneakers
    once.  He disappeared without a trace. ;^).
    fred();

    1. Browse through tool departments. I always do this after my wife has
    dragged me through a fabric store going "Oh, feel THIS material!"
    In turn, I take her to the tools and go, "Wow, heft this 10 pound
    sledgehammer". 
    
    2. On Father's Day: The sales all center on either clothes (mainly
    shirts and ties) or stepladders and buckets of paint. (Keep the man
    working around the house). 
    
    3. Buying lots of tools we will probably never use.
    
    4. Letting the wife mail out anniversary and birthday cards to the 
    relatives.
    
    5. Setting off fireworks. Especially cherry bombs. Ever use a 1/4"
    firecracker on a frog? A real guy thing there. Also plinking frogs with
    BB guns. My sister never could get into the enjoyment of frog plinking.
    
    6. Writing your name in the snow while taking a whizz. It would be very
    interesting to see the ladies try this one. 
    
    7. Buying good hunting hounds.
    
    8. Buying various kinds of rifles. "Let's see, I'll NEED  a .243 for
    woodchucks (so what if you live in downtown Boston), a .270 for deer,
    a .30-06 for black bear and a .375 H&H magnum for grizzlies". "Oh,
    yeah, better throw in a .44 magnum revolver in case I can't stop a
    grizzly bear attack with my .375 H&H magnum".

    
    hefting biggish rock cod from the hold of a leaky tub
    is a guy thing, even if they're being caught by the fishmyn's
    mother.z
    
    

    
    
    1.) Teaching my son how to play baseball.
    
    2.) Waking up to a panicked SO saying " I heard something go check it
    out please" then you walk down to the fridge grab a beer and tour the
    house looking for the pseudo prowler.
    
    3.)Being the official taster tester for the SO's new and improved
    recipe( smiling even if you don't like zuccini spaghetti):-)
    
    4.) Always wash your hands in the litchen sink and use the best dish
    towel possible to clean with..
    
    
    
    Short list,
    David

    Re .112
    
    > 5. Setting off fireworks. Especially cherry bombs. Ever use a 1/4"
    > firecracker on a frog? A real guy thing there. Also plinking frogs with
    > BB guns. My sister never could get into the enjoyment of frog plinking.
    
    I never could get into blowing up frogs or plinking at them, either.  I
    don't think it's a real "guy" thing, I think it's a real "cruel" thing.
    
    	"Though the boys throw stones at frogs in sport, yet the frogs do
    	not die in sport but in earnest."
    
    				- Plutarch

I sigh over the Sears tool catalog with the best of them, but this past weekend
I saw something which was even a bit "too much" for me.  It was in a catalog
called Griot's, which sells expensive tools for fixing expensive cars (at least
the copy writer seems to keep referring to how this and that is useful for
Porches; not sure how they'd work on my car.  Anyway, the header on one of the
pages said "Own the largest automotive hammer collection on your block!"  Is 
this supposed to make me rush to the phone and buy the dozen or so different
specialty hammers they offer?  Are there men who would get excited at this
prospect?

				Steve

    From "Steel Magnolia":

    Pee in the sink. Hopefully take the dishes out first.:)

    re .115, I agree with you about a real "cruel" thing.  Fortunately,
    there are some guys who aren't into real cruel things.
    
    Lorna
    

    >.115 and .118
    The note is for guy things, remember? You want cruel, take a zoology
    lab and pith your little froggy. This is where you stick a needle under
    the base of the skull and wiggle it back and forth to break the cord to
    the brain. Bet there's a lot more froggies dying in those labs than
    being plinked by BB guns. Maybe you two should get together and try to
    stop these frog murders in the labs.
    

    Or frogs that get squashed under the wheels of your car on a warm
    rainy night when the hop out onto the pavement to get warm and flatten.
    Road froggie pizza.:) 

  >>  Road froggie pizza.:) 

	Road toad ala mode.

    Well, I refused to touch the frog in biology class and I brake for them
    when they're in the road, and don't recall ever running over any.
    
    And, besides, I think there's a difference between hurting something
    for an important reason (such as teaching students anatomy), and hurting 
    something just for the hell of it.
    
    Gee, when someone referred to killing frogs, for the hell of it, as
    cruelty, someone else responded by saying that, well, afterall, this
    *is* a topic for guy things.  Does that mean *cruelty* is a guy thing? 
    
    (Something tells me that if I or some other woman had said that cruelty
    is a guy thing, the men in here would have been up in arms.)
    
    Of course, not that I disagree.  From what I've seen of the world
    cruelty does seem to be a guy thing.  (Not all guys, but always guys!)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: 15.112 by MYOSPY::CLARK
    
    > 6. Writing your name in the snow while taking a whizz. It would be
    > very interesting to see the ladies try this one.
    
    Actually, any woman can do this... if her name is Dot...
    
    RE: blowing up frogs.
    
    I never got into frog murder, but gypsy moths were a differet story...
    we used to fry them with magnifying glasses and squish 'em with our
    bike tires and stuff. 
    
    And I'd do it again if I had the chance.
    
    - Jim

Lorna, I'm real happy about your note - at least I can relate to somebody out 
there.

	"Does that mean *cruelty* is a guy thing?"

In general I don't believe it is. What I find disturbing about the last few 
replies is the notion of killing something - animal, insect or whatever - for 
the fun of it. Granted, some of the replies might have been in jest but that's
some sense of humour. 

	"From what I've seen of the world cruelty does seem to be a guy thing"

Men do perpetrate acts of cruelty - unfortuneately - and Men are capable of 
doing things to others of horrific proportions in the name of the cause or 
flavour of the month but don't exclude women. There's been some major bitches 
around in the past 80 years or so without going back through the History books. 

I do believe however that Men in general aren't cruel by nature. So it's not
a "guy thing". 

- Paul.

    
   >> Of course, not that I disagree.  From what I've seen of the world
   >> cruelty does seem to be a guy thing.  (Not all guys, but always guys!)

	Laughable.  Women have their own methods of being cruel.
	It's usually not quite so overt, but it's there.

    re .125, well, personally, I'd rather have somebody gossip about me
    than beat the crap out of me, but each to his/her own!
    
    Lorna
    

   >> re .125, well, personally, I'd rather have somebody gossip about me
   >> than beat the crap out of me, but each to his/her own!

    True, but the way the cruelty manifests itself is a separate issue.
    Cruelty is not a "guy thing" - was my point.
    

        Lorna,

    Do you dodge flocks of misquotes too?:) What about those butterflies
    that you smack in the grill of your car? Do you stop for them too? Have
    many rear end accidents?:) 

>    Do you dodge flocks of misquotes too?:) 
    
    
    Well, I can't speak for Lorna, but I know that I personally try to
    dodge as many misQUOTES as possible!
    
    Daniel

Cruelty comes in many forms.  And yes, women can dish it out real well.

Recently, a woman got mad at me for something I wrote in email.  So mad, in fact,
that she didn't answer my messages for 3 whole days.  Didn't answer email, didn't
answer work phone, didn't answer home phone.

I had no idea she was even mad at me.  I thought maybe she had literally died,
or was in the hospital.  When I finally got a message three days later, she
told me I hadn't heard from her because she was so upset by what I had written,
and to please back off.

I was really mad !  First of all, I didn't really know why she was so mad.
Secondly, I had gotten so worried about her well being.

To me, it's *cruel* to wait 3 days before telling me you're mad.  The uncruel
thing is to tell me right away.  Give me a chance to apologize or to explain
myself.  It's cruel to cut me off completely like that without giving me a chance.

(sure, if someone is being persistant or abusive, then sometimes cutting
someone off is a good move, but in this case her *first* reaction to anger was
the cut off.  I'm pissed!)

/Eric

    re .130, well, at least she didn't go over to your house and shoot you,
    which men seem to be doing more and more often, when upset, to the women 
    in their lives.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: blowing up frogs w/cherry bombs
    
    My ex-husband once came close to blowing up our beloved cat with a
    cherry bomb.  He put the cherry bomb in an empty bedroom (in an
    ashtray) then lit it and encouraged our cat to sniff the smoke from
    the lit fuse (which he did.)
    
    I walked into the room and saw what was happening and yelled and
    stomped (sending the cat scurrying out of the room) just in time.
    The bomb went off and hurt my ears, but at least the cat was safe.
    
    By the time we split up, both our cats would hiss when my ex would
    simply walk into a room.  They were great judges of character (or
    the lack thereof.)

    Getting away from 'cruel' things and into annoying yet endearing things
    that 'my guy' does...like taking off underwear, spandex, shorts and
    sweatpants all at one time and leaving the unique looking pile inside
    out on the floor, or balling a pair of socks up and then putting it in
    the laundry...

    
    your guy wears underwear?  that's been a novel concept for some guys
    I've met.
    

    re last few
    
    Ah yes, let't turn this into (yet another) male bashing exercise.
    
    fred();

fred();, what 'last few' are you referring to ?

- Paul

    
    .134, .133, .132, and .131
    
    fred();

I don't consider that male bashing fred. 

Blowing up cats isn't a 'guy thing' - that's cruel - she's just bitching about 
her ex-hubby and in that context too right.

Shooting women isn't a 'guy thing' - what do expect if guns are available to
everybody and anybody. Expect pathological nuts to get hold of them and blow 
people away that's what.

Dropping clothes where you take them off isn't a 'guy thing' - that's a slob
thing.

Wearing no undies (I only wear boxers - sexy huh ?) isn't a 'guy thing' - that's
dumb. The danger of catching JT  in the zip is too painful to imagine. Brings
tears to my eyes just thinking about it.

So why's that male bashing fred ? Has nothing to do with men.

- Paul.

    
>Blowing up cats isn't a 'guy thing' - that's cruel 
>Shooting women isn't a 'guy thing' 
>Dropping clothes where you take them off isn't a 'guy thing' 
>Wearing no undies (I only wear boxers - sexy huh ?) isn't a 'guy thing' 
    
    Q.E.D.
    
    fred();

    Blowing up frogs isn't a 'guy thing,' either (I hope!)
    
    It did come up in the conversation, though.
    

	"All you're doing is proving my point"

Sure, but my point is that they're bitching about non "guy things" which you 
can't consider male bashing. It's just bitching - which women are very good at.

Now that's a typical 'guy thing'. Have you noticed that when women start bitching
men turn a deaf ear. 

Procrastination is another good example of a 'guy thing'

	The wife: "Have you taken the trash out yet darling"
	Hubby:    "Sure have honey"
		   thinks 'I wonder what's on TV'
	
5 minutes later

	The wife: "When did you take the trash out darling ?"
	Hubby:    "Oh, just a little while ago light of my life"
		   thinks 'this is a great game'

5 minutes later

	The wife: "Darling you HAVEN'T taken the trash out - I thought .."
	explosion + ensuing chaos as the wife attacks hubby with a kitchen knife.

	Hubby:    thinks - 'oh shit I guess I'd better take the trash out now'

Well maybe that's not a 'guy thing' - more a me thing.

>    re last few
>    
>    Ah yes, let't turn this into (yet another) male bashing exercise.
>    
>    fred();




	A guy admitting he feels annoyed or insulted ?  Now *that*'s not a guy
	thing at all.


	/Eric

Who wants easy access ? It's a lot more fun when the woman pulls your boxers down
....with her teeth !!!!

- Paul.

    RE: .138
    
>> The danger of catching JT  in the zip is too painful to imagine. Brings
>> tears to my eyes just thinking about it.
    
    Repeat after me:  "Button-fly, Button-fly, Button-fly!!!"
    
    ;-)
    
    - "jt"

    >.123. Thanks for the reply. 
    >.122
    Braking for frogs? Are you kidding? This is a good way to get rear
    ended. This reminds me of a ride I had last fall. The driver swereved
    every which way to keep from running over a chipmunk. Almost put us
    in the trees doing it. I was so mad I wanted to belt him. Idiot will
    probably kill himself trying to avoid running over a chipmunk some day.
    
    As to frog plinking being cruel: Not if you get them with a good head
    shot which isn't easy with a BB gun. We used BB guns because our
    fathers wouldn't let us use 12 gauge shotguns with number 6's. Those
    are reserved for rabbits.
    
    Take a trip to a slaughter house and see where your Big Macs and
    Chicken McNuggets come from. (HINT: They aren't from animals that die
    natural deaths).
    

Little boys with guns in their hands and nothing between their ears except 
air plink frogs - not men.

Personally I make a distinction between killing to serve a need and killing 
for sport or enjoyment. I'm a lactose vegetarian by choice because I don't 
want an animal to be destroyed to satisfy my needs. There are enough ways to 
sustain oneself without having to eat meat. However, I accept that other 
people choose to eat meat and that as a consequence animals will be destroyed.

Plinking frogs doesn't serve any basic need - it's a senseless act of
destruction.

- Paul

P.S. ::Clark - If I did eat meat I wouldn't eat a Big Mac - that's s..t food. 
Thickens your arteries, puts layers of fat around your heart and liver and 
makes your breath smell. No thank you. You should take more care of your body - 
it's the only one you've got and the road is long and hard.

    re .147

>I'm a lactose vegetarian by choice because I don't 
>want an animal to be destroyed to satisfy my needs. 

    Good.  That means more for the rest of us.

>P.S. ::Clark - If I did eat meat I wouldn't eat a Big Mac - that's s..t food. 
>Thickens your arteries, puts layers of fat around your heart and liver and 
>makes your breath smell. No thank you. You should take more care of your body - 
>it's the only one you've got and the road is long and hard.

    Funny how the life expectancy has skyrocketed now that we have all 
    this "unhealthy" stuff around.

    fred();

    re .147, I agree with you (although I'm not a vegetarian).  Thanks for
    your refreshing reply, proving that cruelty is not always a guy thing.
    
    Lorna
    

 Wow- .147 pegged my piety meter.

 Maybe I should say "little boys are self righteous- not men." :-)

	Even if I can live longer by not eating meat I'm not sure it's
	worth it. I like meat. :-)

	I think it may be a guy thing to do things that we know (or at least
	suspect) may be bad for us because "it's fun." As the saying goes,
	"you only live once - but if you do it right once is enough."

			Alfred

Hang on Alfred, I never said anything about giving up women...

    There is a BIG difference between killing animals as sources of food
    (big Macs'/Chicken McNuggets) and killing animals for the hell of it.
    I wonder that some have trouble seeing the distinction. 
    
    Last Fall I was operating a log splitter in my back yard.  A couple
    of 12 year old neighborhood boys were watching.  A fat toad jumped
    out from under the wood pile.  The next thing I knew one of the boys
    was in the process of fying the toat alive on the muffler of the log
    splitter.
    
    Yup a GUY thing to do all right... sure wasn't a little girl doing it.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    The toad.  I saved it before it got too fried... it happily hopped away
    in the woods after I chewed  the boys out throughtly.  "Didn't they
    REALIZE about the ecosystem and the strain earth is under etc etc.?"
    
    Its funny THEY should have been teaching ME about stuff like that. I
    am 50 won't be around as long to see the ruins.
    
    Yup, guy stuff all right.
    
    Jeff

    Oh yeah.  When I was a kid I DID shoot frogs too.  More out a sense
    of hunting than because I wanted to watch the frogs suffer. But I 
    was WRONG to do it, and I know it now.  So, I do understand the 
    hunting urge all right, but not the frying urge.
    
    Jeff

    .147
    
    Paul,
    
    What about all those goood chemicals they put on the foods you eat. And
    if you say you grow your own. Good, remember that the soil that you
    grow them in might have some good nuke waist in it. 

    re .153
    
>    Yup a GUY thing to do all right... sure wasn't a little girl doing it.
    
    Even though it was a boy doing this in this particular thing, I don't
    think "guys" have a corner on this type of behavior.  I've seen little
    girl do things just as cruel.
    
    fred();

    Actually the last time I went 'frogging' was with my future WIFE, she
    didn't seem to mind shooting them at the time either.
    
    Jeff

    Jeez, glad I didn't mention frog baseball. Now, I will NOT kill a snake
    for "fun" or target practice. Anything that eats rats, mice is A-OK
    with me. Is it still okay to shoot rats and mice? How about rabid
    raccoons?
    
    ALL food is chemicals and those particular organizations of
    hydro-carbon chains is what your body uses. If it isn't usable
    chemicals upon digestion it isn't going to be detected as nutrition
    by your body.
    
    I have friends who are vegetarians and will not eat anything that has
    eggs in it. They are both just as sick just as often as anyone else so
    I don't buy it that it is necessarily healthier. Give up cheeseburgers
    and pepperoni pizza? HA! Figure the odds. I do think there is a chance
    they might be healthier looking corpses someday due to all those
    vitamins being so good for your skin. This is a constant debate even
    among nutritionists, medical researchers, etc. I am just biding my time
    until someone "discovers" that salads are bad for you and we should all
    eat more chocolate and pizza. 

Being a vegie doesn't equate with being a health freak, a nut, a desire
to live longer or a way of living which restricts the enjoyment of life - 
for me anyway. Could it be that in America vegetarianism has negative 
associations ?

Sure there are chemicals in the food I eat (hopefully not any nuclear waste)
and the alcohol I drink doesn't do my liver any good - I know. What I try to
practice however is damage control and preventative maintenance. I try not 
to get drunk too often, I watch my food consumption and I exercise regularly.

I'm really a hedonist at heart - I just don't believe in killing or torturing 
animals for fun, sport or senseless destruction. 

- Paul.

    .159
    
    Did you know that the FDA has an allowance of so many part of rat per
    ton of grain that goes into the booze you drink? :) Never mind the
    parts per million of rat that goes into those veggies that you eat
    too.:) Parfa rat anyone?:-)

    .159
    
    Guess that all goes to show you that you cannot go around expecting not
    to eat some little animal someplace. And that all things that apear to
    be, are not always what we are told they are.:)
    

    Re .160
    
    No, it's not so many parts of rat per ton of grain.  It's so many parts
    of rat excrement, so many parts of insect corpses, so many parts of...
    
    It all comes out in the end, anyway.

    re .159, I can totally identify with your last paragraph.
    
    Regarding vegetarianism, I think it does have some negative
    connotations for many people in the US.  Most people in the US tend to
    eat a lot of meat, so anyone who doesn't might be considered sort of a
    new age health freak, or a nut, or something, by many people.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    Hey! I can relate to that. Being green with a lizards tail, from doing
    too much Joe Wieder magic potions has its draw back. Esp when you
    cancle the subscription to the mags. You get the operator on the other
    side to wave her magic wand and.... >POOOF!< your a toad. Or a wart.:)
    
    I use to be married to a vetarian. Execpt she wasn't in it for the
    cause of stopping the killing of little animals.
    
    Welp.... Back to doing my single tail dumbel press's.

    Maybe we need a constitutional amendment forbidding the discrimination
    against vegetarians?

    fred()

    
    George,  Aw, geeze, right in the middle of trying to eat a bagel. 
    Don't you have _any_ decency 8^}.
    
    fred();

    re .164, George, you confuse me!  Did you say that you're a lizard?
    
    Lorna
    

George, it's not a cause just an act of conscientiousness - on my part.

- Paul

    
    I was reading recently about restaurants in China that specialize
    in rat cuisine.  All sorts of stir-fried rodent goodies are on the
    menu, with the critters in question being considered a delicacy.
    Rat is a "hot" food in the Chinese gustatory lexicon (crab, for
    example, is a cold food and must be tempered with lots of ginger
    and garlic to prevent chilling the diner).  Apparently rat makes
    the diners sweat profusely, so the restaurants are filled with
    people stripped to the waist.
    
    Oh, the relevance to this topic?  Rat restaurants cater to a
    predominantly male clientele.  Apparently rat is a "manly meal."
    
    Ron

    Re. last few entries....
    
    SET MODE = MONTY/PYTHON
    
    "One strawberry tart without so much rat in it....."
    
                           ;^) ;^) ;^) ;^)
    				--Eric--
    
    P.S.  We now return you to the rathole in progress. ;) 

    re .169, maybe the women just don't feel comfortable with being
    "stripped to the waist" while they eat.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    What if it was a large 6 foot rat stripped to the waist? Would you be
    upset?:) 
    
    Pass the spam and parfa rat please.:)
    
    

    A man winked at me this morning, and it occurred to me that this
    is primarily a "guy thing" to do.  One that I find devastatingly
    charming, too.  This, of course, will put me in even better stead
    with the radical feminist contigent.  8^)    

    Diane

    Rat?  Its all in your mind.  Properly prepared I suppose its as healthy
    a meal for you as most other meats.  Don't eat it raw... could get
    tapeworms... my cat does from eating them.  You would think I didn't
    feed him, but obviously he thinks rat is an appropriate suppliment to
    his meals... to each their own.
    
    Rabin coons ok to shoot?  Give me a break.  How does shooting a
    dangerous sick animal equate to killing frogs for fun?
    
    Hey, you want to shoot frogs go to it...its not against the law, yet,
    anyway.  For me... I think its wrong.
    
    Jeff

    RE: .173  Diane

    > A man winked at me this morning, and it occurred to me that this
    > is primarily a "guy thing" to do.  One that I find devastatingly
    > charming, too.  

    Well, I've seen lots of women wink (perhaps they meant something
    different by it, though.  Who knows.)

    > This, of course, will put me in even better stead with the radical 
    > feminist contigent.  8^)    

    I don't know any radical feminists, but I can't even begin to imagine
    why it would bother anyone for you to find winks charming.  They really
    are charming (IMO) - most of the time, anyway.

    Best luck in this endeavor, though.

    > A man winked at me this morning, and it occurred to me that this
    > is primarily a "guy thing" to do.  One that I find devastatingly
    > charming, too.  
    
    I too have seen women wink at men. In fact I was attending a wedding
    and the bride winked at me as she walked down the aisle. I was not
    an expected guest and she wanted to let me know she saw me.
    
    		Alfred

   >> Well, I've seen lots of women wink (perhaps they meant something
   >> different by it, though.  Who knows.)

	Yeah, that's why I used the word "primarily".  I've seen 
	women wink, too, but many more men than women.

   >>I don't know any radical feminists, but I can't even begin to imagine
   >> why it would bother anyone for you to find winks charming.  They really
   >> are charming (IMO) - most of the time, anyway.

	Well, I can't help if it your imagination is lacking.  8^)

   >> Best luck in this endeavor, though.

	What endeavor is that, pray tell?  Geez, just when I think I
	know about all of my endeavors, I suddenly have a new one.  No
	rest for the weary.  


	Di

    A wink is the same as a nod to a blind horse.:) Sounds like a title to
    a Rod Stewart album....:)

    RE: .177  Diane
    
    > Yeah, that's why I used the word "primarily".  I've seen 
    > women wink, too, but many more men than women.
    
    I've seen about the same number of winks from men and women, so
    I guess our experiences differ.  (Big surprise, eh?)  :>
    
    >> I don't know any radical feminists, but I can't even begin to imagine
    >> why it would bother anyone for you to find winks charming.  They really
    >> are charming (IMO) - most of the time, anyway.

    > Well, I can't help if it your imagination is lacking.  8^)
    
    Your projections and wishful thinking aren't, though.  :>
    
    >> Best luck in this endeavor, though.

    > What endeavor is that, pray tell?  Geez, just when I think I
    > know about all of my endeavors, I suddenly have a new one.  No
    > rest for the weary.  
    
    Who said it was a new one?  :>

    
   >> I've seen about the same number of winks from men and women, so
   >> I guess our experiences differ.  (Big surprise, eh?)  :>

    Yeah, maybe you're a lot cuter.
    
   >> Your projections and wishful thinking aren't, though.  :>

    Wishful thinking?  Hmmm, how _do_ you come up with this stuff?  It's
    a truly amazing thing to watch.
    
   >> Who said it was a new one?  :>

    Let's see - I think that was me.

    RE: .180  Diane
    
    People (men and women) wink for a lot of different reasons, as
    Alfred's note suggested.  Another example is to wink at people
    standing nearby after making a humorous comment to someone.
    Folks in my group (men and women) do this very frequently.
    
    > Wishful thinking?  Hmmm, how _do_ you come up with this stuff?  It's
    > a truly amazing thing to watch.
    
    Just funnin' with ya, Diane.  :>  Couldn't resist.

    
  >>  People (men and women) wink for a lot of different reasons, as

	Gosh, I learn so much from you, Suzanne.  I'm forever grateful.  8^)

    
    So glad I could be of help to you, Diane.  :>
    
    (Funny you should use the term 'mentor' since I do actually work as
    a mentor to several engineers at Digital as part of my job.)
    
    See ya...

    
  >>  (Funny you should use the term 'mentor' since I do actually work as
  >>  a mentor to several engineers at Digital as part of my job.)

	Lucky them.  (wink, wink)

    Well, they did each *ask* for me (individually and quite specifically) 
    as a mentor.  (It's part of our business here.)
    
    I liked your winks, though.  They were charming.  :>

    Well, for some reason, I find winks annoying, whether it's a man or a
    woman.  I think it looks stupid.  (This has nothing to do with being a
    radical feminist, since I'm not as proven by the fact that I like to
    have doors held for me, and have let men buy me things.)   :-)
    
    Lorna
    

Well, getting back to the original topic, one of the guy things we use to do
when I was in the Navy was to sit on the fantail (back for you land lubbers)
of the ship and throw AlkaSelzer tablet up in the air.  The Sea Gulls would
grab and eat them.

I'll leave it to your imagination what happened about 3 minuits after the gull
ate the tablet.   Yech!  I still don't beleave we used to do that,  but the
military does strange things to the mind.

Just my passing perversion,, :-)

GONZO

    .187
    Hope the guls didn't have to go to captins mast.:)

>Could it be that in America vegetarianism has negative associations ?

 Definitely, largely due to the almost religious fervor associated
with the practice.

>>Could it be that in America vegetarianism has negative associations ?
>
> Definitely, largely due to the almost religious fervor associated
>with the practice.

    Not only that but it's associated with not eating meat. :-) But the
    common (apparent) attitude among many American vegetarians that those
    who eat meat are "bad people" is probably the source of a lot of 
    antagonism.

    		Alfred

    
    Guy thing to do : 
    
      Spit into the urinal before peeing.
    
    

    Guy thing?  Flush the urinal before/while peeing so your tinkle will be
    inauduble.

    How about tinkling in well lit alleys drunk out of your skull? 
    
    Or chalange limo drives for a free ride when there is a car load of
    people?
    I have had toooo many close calls with this! :)
    
    How about just spitting chewing tobacco in public!

    Actually, I've always wondered why so many guys seem to have difficulty
    *flushing* a urinal...yech...
    
    Daniel

    Re: seagulls  
    
    I too was in the Navy (4 years as an enlisted man on a carrier).  Some
    of the laundry guys got hold of a cat and spun it 'dry' in an
    industrial spin dryer on the ship.
    
    I bring this up as a further illustration of mans' un 'kind' ness
    to other creaters.  It STILL enrages me to think of what those guys
    did to that cat (and this is 25 YEARS later).  If I had caught them
    in the act I would have gotten beaten to a pulp by them but I would
    given it my best shot to beat the sxxx out of them.
    
    I don't don't consider spin drying cats or throwing Alka Seltzer
    Tablets to seagulls (to watch them blow up their stomachs) guy things
    to do.  I consider those things just plain cruel and a further
    illustration of mankinds ability to pick on creatures weaker than
    themselves. 
    
    Jeff
     

    Difficulty flushing:  There are only two hands.  One to hold the
    cigarette, the other for........          none left to flush with.
    
    
    

    re .195, I agree with you.  Cruelty of the type you describe is
    horrible, and I would appreciate if people could refrain from giving
    any more explicit examples.  It's really sickening to read.
    
    I know this is Mennotes, and I'm a woman, but this Notesfile is open to
    all DEC employees, and I would prefer not having to read about such
    disgusting examples of man's cruelty to other living creatures.
    
    Lorna
      

 Next unseen is an option available to those who are not comfortable
with any given passage.

WRT Cruelty:

I do not dispute that these things are cruel, just citing an example.  I another
noter said, Next Unseen is the best option.  

Also, I do not do things like this any more.

I think that the "Guy" things we do change with who we are and where we are in
pur lives.  

Anyway, just rambling,  sorry if I offended anyone's delicate constitutions.

GONZO

    
    Is it a 'guy thing' to seek snarfs?  :>
    

 Not at all.

If vegetarians have a hard time in America, I wonder how they fare in a place
where people *really* eat a lot of meat -- like Argentina.

    re .198, well, since I'm not omniscient, I sometimes don't realize that
    a particular reply is going to offend me until I've already read it,
    and by then it's too late.  It's possible to next unseen past replies
    by particular noters I might not like, but I can't always predict what
    reply by a noter, I don't usually try to avoid, might be especially 
    offensive.
    
    One thing this topic has done is remind me why I never wanted to have a
    son.  Thank god my only child is a girl.  If I had had a boy I probably
    would have dropped him off by the side of the road somewhere to fend
    for himself.   (Hope that admission doesn't offend anyone's delicate
    sensibilities!)
    
    Lorna
    

    Sorry Lorna, didn't mean to upset you, really.  And I agree you can't
    know it offended you until it offended you.  Next unseen is too late.
    
    Now, talking about cruelty to children, (smile).  I assure you Lorna
    not all boys do those sorts of things (beat on animals) and its not
    the wimps and sissies who don't.  Don't give up on MANkind yet Lorna.
    For every case of cruelty there are hundreds of acts of kindness you
    don't hear about.
    
    The the noter who talked about the gulls.  I know what you mean.  We
    do grow out of certain behaviors.  (I admitted that I have shot frogs)
    so am hardly a complete saint myself.
    
    When in a setting like that.... a bunch of guys sitting around on the
    fantail chewing the breeze and some joker pulls out an Alka Seltzer
    Tablet and tosses it in the air for a gull to eat.  That DOES pose an
    interesting social problem if you object to that behavior.  Do you
    do the 'guy thing' and go along with it and maybe toss a few tablets 
    yourself, or do you walk away, or do you actively object, thus risking
    your social standing with the group?  On a closed society like a ship
    that is no small risk.....getting the stigma of being a softie or wimp
    etc.
    
    As I said, I think that in my case my anger would overcome any social
    common sense.  I can't stand seeing weaker, or innocent creatures being
    taken advantage of like that.
    
    I think that most guys would recognize that guy thing or not, it is a 
    wrong thing to do whether they admitted it to the group or not.
    
    Jeff
    

Regarding seagulls and Alka-Seltzer tablets - has anyone actually SEEN this,
or are you just retelling a story someone else told you?  I've read a number
of times that this doesn't really happen any more than "fill in your favorite
child actor or singer" died after swallowing a bunch of Pop Rocks, that the
worst that can happen is that the seagull belches.

				Steve

    �worst that can happen is that the seagull belches.
    
    or pass over captins mast!:) Bombs Away!! AAAH! Got one of them
    suckers!:) Direct hit! Wait till I get back to land and tell the other
    gulls of how I hit that bald guy.;)

Ok, ok, ok, ok, ok - what's a snarf ?

>Ok, ok, ok, ok, ok - what's a snarf ?

    i cant believe you dont know what a snarf is? you must be a new
    DECeeee?

    ok, i explain a snarf, a snarf is used mostly by experienced noters
    who have been around more and they use it on notes with significance
    numbers, usually numbers like 100, 500, 1000, or even ones with x69x
    and x66x and may be x50x in them. (although the most popular snarfs
    are used with x000x and x69x ones).

    very experienced noters might have collaborators to them who make a notes 
    just to get close to the snarf number, then the lead noter quickly
    comes in and write the note and get the snarf note for themselves.

    there are many combinations to the above, but with time you'll get
    the hang of it.

    hope this help.

    \nasser

Hey, Nasser - where've you been man ? 

Thanks for the explanation - sure helped. No I'm not a new hand. I've been 
around DEC since 1981 - August 3rd 9:30am to be exact. I just never had the
time to note before. My last job was done away with in a re-shuffle so since 
then I keep my frustrations at bay (= checked) through noting.

- Paul

    RE: .203
    
    Well, actually, I find a comment like yours more offensive than a story
    about shooting toads.
    
    Marc H.

    re .210, yeah, so?
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .211
    
    Just putting things in perspective for you. Feeling bad about hurting
    animals is certainly O.K., but to not want a human life that is a gift
    because of its sex surely is far more of a deep hurt. 
    
    Marc H.

    re .212, well, fortunately, my only child, is a beautiful female, and
    we're thrilled with each other, so don't shed any tears about the
    situation.
    
    Personally, I don't see anything wrong with someone saying they would
    prefer to have children of one sex over the other.  I just don't happen
    to like little boys (in general), while I love little girls (in
    general).  As my mother used to say, most boys don't really turn human until
    they get to be around 18 or 20.
    
    Also, just to clue you in, Marc, I really don't need you to put
    anything in perspective for me.  How presumptuous of you.  (Do you
    think that just because you are a man that you should be able to put
    things in perspective for women?  I've noticed men often seem to feel
    that way.)
    
    Lorna
    

    Your mileage may vary, Marc.  That's okay.  In China, parents are still
    reportedly exposing girl babies because they are worthless.  In India,
    parents have set their own homes on fire to kill daughters asleep
    inside because they were a liability - dowry, you know...
    
    -dick

    RE: .213
    
    Lorna...you have *NO* clue as to what type of person I am. You
    have *NO* clue as to what type of family I have, or, what type
    of relationship I have with my wife. I see now that anymore
    comments with you would just be a waste of time.
    Good Bye.
    
    Marc H.

    re .215, what are you talking about?  I didn't say anything about your
    family or your wife!  
    
    Also, let me remind you, that while I don't know you, you don't know me
    either, but I agree that exchanging any further comments would be a
    waste of time.
    
    Lorna
    

    >As my mother used to say, most boys don't really turn human until they
    >get to be around 18 or 20.
    
    And sometimes not even then.
    
    -- Mike

    >.203. You stated if you had had a son you probably would have dropped
    him off beside the road. From your comments I bet if you had a son he
    would probably leave on his own will without any urging from you. Do
    you hate all men or just a select few? Such a cruel statement. Sure
    feel sorry for any boys that try to date your daughter in high school.

    re .218, your reply makes me laugh.  You're replying to the woman whose
    husband once said, "You could find something appealing about a wino
    passed out in the gutter!"  To which one of my girlfriends, who was
    with us, burst out laughing, and said, "I know!  Lorna *loves* men!"
    
    I like men.  I'd just rather have somebody raise'm til they get old
    enough to be interesting.
    
    Lorna
    

    >.203. You stated if you had had a son you probably would have dropped
    >him off beside the road.

 If a man said such a thing about daughters in =wn=, who wants to take bets
on how long before the lynch mob arrived?

My wife doesn't want to have boys and neither did her mother. 

My grandmother didn't like girls - she thought they squeeled and giggled too
much.

I don't care what the sex of my child is as long as it's healthy.

Lorna is entitled to her opinion - and she's entitled to express it - so can
we cut the hate mail and get back to some good discourse - please.

You pay your dues you take your choice. Each to their own - let's respect that.

- Paul.

P.S. Do I get points for snarfing 220 ?

Sxxx somebody beat me to it - can you believe that. Just when you see the winning
post...

Damn.

There's a big difference between expressing a preference for children of
a particular sex and saying you'd abandon your child if it was of the
wrong sex.  Besides being reprehensible, child abandonment is illegal
is the civilized world.

    Well, I doubt I would have really abandoned my child if it had been a
    boy.......unless I had caught him being mean to animals, and then I
    might've considered it!
    
    Lorna
    

    help with what?
    

    Lorna, if you'd had a son, he *would* be nice!!
    
    As for me, I didn't know what it would be like to raise a son until
    I had one.  I figured that little boys don't like to hug or be touched
    at all, so I got in all the hugging possible in the first few years.
    
    My son is still an excellent hugger to this day (and I still get one 
    from him almost daily.)
    
    I would love to have had both (a boy and a girl,) but I'm happy to
    have had a child like my son.

    If I may suggest...  it appears that Lorna subscribes to a slight
    variation of the bunghole theory of child-rearing:  Put the kid in a
    barrel, feed it through the bunghole until its 18th birthday, and then
    drive in the bung.

    Hey sometimes I wish that I could have payed someone to take my son. But 
    they say that's against the law. ;.)... I tried when they were little, 
    but those rug rats kept finding home...... 
    
    Anyways, I think boys are harder to raise, I always wanted boys until I 
    had one of each...Don't get me wrong I wouldn't trade him for anything
    in the world except he could be little again and not hit those teenage
    years, or hurry past these teenage years. It's those alien years....
    TEENS. 
    
    A MILLION DOLLARS WOULD DO.... ;.)
    

    I have a friend who has/had a little girl. She went thru those teen
    years.:) And she use to slam, kick, STAB with her finger nail file,
    the hollow core bedroom door. He (dad) replace this lovely door at
    least three times. Then he bought a solid core fire door. Wood of
    course. Welp..... The door lasted sometime. But what abuse it took!
    Anyhow, when he gave his daughter away in marraiage... He gave her that
    last door that took the abuse. Better to take out your hostility on the
    inamate door than something else. :) 
    
    I have seen my dad bend a quarter inch roll poker in half! And then
    when my sister was still standing mouthing off, streighten it out! I
    don't know how easy it is to raise a teen. I know I have something too
    look forward too. I hope that I have the paitents that my dad
    had/has.:)
    

    
    
    Hmmmm, so much for guy things.
    
    

.232> ...so much for guy things.

    Nope.  I did one two nights ago.  Went out, got drunk out my skull. 
    Woke up the next morning in someone else's bed ..   I think I had
    fun .. don't really remember.

    Ladies don't do that kind of stuff ...

    Bubba

    I had a buddy in school who got drunk out of his skull, and late, late
    that night crashed on the floor of my dorm room, fully clothed.  Woke
    up the next morning (or perhaps afternoon), and went to the men's room,
    only to find that he'd lost his skivvies.
    
    He was a dorm hero for weeks!
    
    Ladies don't do that kind of stuff ...
    
    
    Jon

    Cultural differences problem: skivvies?

skivvies are underpants or undies (male variation) or panties (female variation).

    RE: .233
    
>    Ladies don't do that kind of stuff ...
    
    Ladies don't but some women do. :-) The guy thing is to talk about it.
    A woman wouldn't admit to it while guys brag about it.
    
    		Alfred
    

    	Took a groom out for his last night as a bachlor. Did all the strip
    joints in the North End (San Franciso). He got to touch Carol Doda's 
    cement chest (she of the famous first implants). We were all smashed
    and I came up with a wonderful guy idea..........since the best man was
    a SF cop....we'd handcuff the groom to second base at Candlestick Park.
    Problem was...we forgot what we did when we all woke up at 10:30 AM the
    next morning.....All of us got showered and cleaned up, donned the
    light orange tuxes with black slacks.....lookin' spiffy. Wedding was
    due to start at 1:00 PM sharp. At 11:45 I got to the church and made
    sure everything was fine........then I called the best man and asked
    him if he'd seen the groom? Then it hit me! I got to Candlestick around 
    12:20 and he was still sleeping!!!!!Just a coat for a blankie...The cop
    showed up around 12:35.....groundskeeper let us get him into the
    showers, Best man showed up at 12:45......SFPD showed up at 12:55 and
    took us at supersonic speed to the church.....we got there 8 minutes
    late.......Of course I got blamed for everything............
    
    Women would never do that........
    
    Ken

    re .238
    
    I think your bottom line is fairly accurate. No, most of us wouldn't do
    that.

    re .238, nope, never done that to one of my girlfriends.  Never even
    thought of it.  We usually go shopping or out to lunch.
    
    Lorna
    

    my friends had the good taste not to leave me in that mattress cover
    hanging from a mesquite tree the night before my wedding
    
    
    the did it a month earlier
    
    Texas Aggies ... gotta love 'em!
    
      Annie

>    Nope.  I did one two nights ago.  Went out, got drunk out my skull. 
>    Woke up the next morning in someone else's bed ..   I think I had
>    fun .. don't really remember.
>
>    Ladies don't do that kind of stuff ...



If ladies don't do that kind of stuff, then you were in bed wi


 

.242> If ladies don't do that kind of stuff, then you were in bed with
    
    Damned if I know.  If you find out let me know.  I want to know how I
    did.
    
    Bubba


 

>>           <<< Note 15.19 by CADSYS::BELANGER >>>
>>                         -< I hate cities like Denver >-
>>
>> re:15.14 (JURAN::VALENZA) 
>>
>> >New England cities like Boston or Providence, with their spaghetti
>> >street layouts,.
>>
>> All of this assumes that straight streets laid out in a grid are desirable. 
>>I disagree

A *very* belated comment:

All this assumes that streets of cities like Boston were *not* laid out as
grids. That is an incorrect assumption. In almost all instances they *were*
laid out in a grid, at least in as much a grid as the confines of geography
would ensure -- it's the simplest way to divide up and sell land.

The old streets of (downtown) Boston follow a grid within the old Shawmut
peninsula. As land was filled, parallel streets grew up on the new land. As
*big* chunks of land were filled (like Back Bay or the South End) whole new
grids of streets were created. As the "streetcar suburbs" grew in areas
that were annexed later, grids again appear everywhere. And forget the old
cowpath myth. Boston was always a business and government center, not a
farm town, and people decided where to put the streets, not cows. (That's
really just as true in farm towns, too)

It's not the grid-like pattern that is the problem (there is a current
theory that even suburban housing should be done grid-like and that
meandering suburban streets are anti-social). It's the scale of buildings,
the mix of uses, the scale of the streets themselves (hopeless multi-lane
barriers or something that people have a fighting chance to get across)
that are the keys.

Check out Jane Jacobs' classic "The Life and Death of American Cities" for
a description of all this.

    re: streets
    
    I grew up in Providence, so did my parents.  One fine day, we went
    looking for a store on Westminster St.  We were looking for school
    supplies.
    
    No sweat, we all knew where Westminster St was.  We get there, and
    find out that the addresses only go up to something like 500, and this
    store is supposed to be 800-something.
    
    Well, to make a long story short, after more than an hour of checking
    and double checking, we finally stopped by the police station.  They
    informed us that Westminster Street is actually two pieces, one down-
    town, and one up towards Federal Hill.  Viewed from above, you can see
    that it was one street at one time, but got broken up by 95 and related
    construction.
    
    How nice.
    
    And Boston is even worse.  Half the time you'll run into a one-way
    street that wasn't one-way last time you were there or was one-way in
    your direction.  A street map is a necessity in Boston.

    	You'd love the villages in this area. Typically they are built on
    hills, and *the* street goes in a spiral to the church at the top.
    Short passageways with steps connect different parts of the spiral, but
    with a car, you can drive up to the church and then reverse back down
    and you have seen the whole village.

    re: 245, streets in two pieces.
    
    That, too, is not uncommon in Boston. Then there's the phenomenum of
    completely unrelated streets with the same name!  Biggest example:
    Washington Street 1)The main one that stretches from downtown allthe
    way down through Roslindale and Hyde Park 2)the one in Dorchester 3)the
    one in Brighton. Reason being, of course, that Dorchester and Brighton
    were once independent towns.
    
    Brighton has another weird street naming problem. Starting at the
    Brookline town line (where the street is Winchester Street), within the
    space of 4 blocks the same street has 4 different names -- it's been 20
    years since I was a cab driver and knew all this, so I'm a bit foggy on
    the names, but I think it went Kelton, Warren, Arlington, and Sparhawk.
    (Warren and Arlington are also examples of completely different streets
    in different sections of the city with the same name, and that's
    without even differentiating between Warren Ave and Warren Street!)
    
    Kit

    
>    space of 4 blocks the same street has 4 different names -- it's been 20
>    years since I was a cab driver and knew all this, so I'm a bit foggy on
>    the names, but I think it went Kelton, Warren, Arlington, and Sparhawk.
    
    I live 50 yards off Kelton ... and have to try to describe this in
    directions ... "yes, it really is the same street ... yes, I know I
    told you 4 different names ...etc".  One of the joys of living in town.
    
    Greg
    

    I once got directions that went: "Take I93 south to the lower deck;
    take the lower deck to the central artery; take the central artery
    to the Southeast Expressway..."
    
    These "three" routes are different names for stretches of the
    *same road*!