Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    First define the transition from "boy" to "man".
    
    Bubba

    
    	You looking for a short-cut?

You use the words cause/make inferring that an external influence is involved. I
think you're right.

Girls (and I'm interested in what the women think) experience a far more 
powerful change during puberty. When a girl experiences her first menstruation 
it acts as a pyschological catalyst. The women gather round the girl and help
her deal with the new situation. Once kicked off the girl grows towards womenhood
like a flower blossoming. At least that's my perception.

Men don't experience that. When my balls dropped and I could no longer sing
soprano in the choir the men didn't gather round and help me. The physical 
changes weren't sufficient on their own. That's why I like Blys' use of an 
'initiation ceremony' so much. It's kinda like the older men gather round and 
help the boys understand what being a man is.

Their are some cultures who are (in my opinion) good at this. As an example
at a recent event in Munich (a new Ristorante opened up and we were invited)
it was incredible. Women, girls and boys (under the age of about 10) in one
room. Boys (over about 10) with the Fathers, Grandfathers, single men etc, in the
other. That's extreme, maybe, it's also not conclusive that some kinda 
'initiation' was taking place - but compare that situation with, say America or
England. 

     �What is it that causes/makes a boy to become a man?
    
    High school prom. :) Thats when they get their first taste of a life
    beyond what mom and dad tell them they have. And they might get a
    change to score! :)

Stoop low cowboy.

> And they might get a chance to score !

Here's a guy that values himself and others based on scoring. Here's a guy
that believes he's entered manhood when he scores. Wow. I bet he has pencil 
marks on his dick for the number of times he's scored. Wow.

    �Stoop low cowboy.
    
    Guess you were never 17/18 years old. Right! Guess you kinda were born
    with all you wounderful wisdom of life and ever lasting. Get down off
    your high horse and try to put your self rightous self in their shoes.
    That is if your over sized ego will allow it to happen. Or perhaps you
    just haven't grown up enought to under stand that mind set? Or perhaps
    you should take a lesson from yourself as a youth? That is if your
    able to. But that takes maturity do to so. So, I guess that leaves you
    way the hell out in the dark.
    

  >>The women gather round the girl and help
  >>her deal with the new situation. Once kicked off the girl grows
  >>towards womenhood
  >>like a flower blossoming. At least that's my perception.

	Sounds good, but I have no recollection of this whatsoever.
	I remember my mother handing me a pamphlet.

	Di

    re: .5
    Not pencil marks.  Real men use notches.
    

Ooops, looks like our cowboy hasn't scored yet. 

>    What is it that causes/makes a boy to become a man?

    In some cultures a boy becomes a man when he takes a wife. I've heard
    70 year old men called "boy" because they'd never married.

    In the general American culture I don't think there is a single
    identifying step that marks the transition. I'm not sure though that 
    their needs to be. 

    		Alfred

    'what is it that causes a boy to become a man?'
    
    Yes. (virtually everything)
    
    All of the above, and more.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    In some cultures, you have a religous party/cerimony. In others
    cultures, they hunt lions, tigers, and bears (oh-my). In some
    cultures... Its when you pick up a gun and go defend you country. I
    guess there is no real set example of when it happens. I am being funny
    when I mention the high school prom. Because there has been many
    articles written about it in mags and other local state side
    publications. Even movies called "Coming of Age", which are directly
    aimed at that segment of the populas.
    

    
    Bubba,
    
    > First define the transition 
    
     I can't.
    
    David

    
    > Now there's a warped dude
    
     I think there is a typical person. I recall my early years and I
    believe ( rightly or wrongly) that part of the passage to manhood
    was to have had sexual intercourse. Alot of dysfunctional motives
    went into this and we men have alot of damage control to do regarding
    this attitude..
    
    David

    I somehow managed to grow up with the notion that the overpowering urge
    to get laid before getting married marked one as an adolescent.  Being
    married was a commitment that was cemented by lovemaking; just getting
    laid was a thing you did to prove your manhood, hence it was proof that
    you were not mature enough to be secure in yourself.
    
    No, I did *not* formulate this later - this was what my parents really
    ingrained into my belief pattern.

    re .3, like .7, nobody gathered around me in support when I first got my 
    period either.  I got the pamphlet, and was cautioned that one does not
    discuss such things with other people.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re rites of passage: I _have_ heard some women claim that the "now you
    are a woman" bit (upon the onset of menstruation) meant a lot to them,
    but personally, I didn't - and don't - find that it coincides with what
    I'd consider a significant stage in a person's maturation. After all,
    it's a totally involuntary process: we can't tell when it will start,
    can't (short of surgery or the regular application of drugs to change
    our hormone balance) do much in the way of controlling it during the
    twenty or thirty years it chooses to hang around, and can't bring it
    back once it's gone. Its onset doesn't say anything about the lucky
    recipient's mental or emotional maturity - or even, necessarily, that
    she's physically capable of bringing a baby to term; just that she's
    now capable of conceiving one.
    
    In short, I'd say it's about as much of an indication of adulthood as a
    guy's first wet dream - though not, I gather, as much fun...
    
    At any rate - I _do_ think it might be a good thing if there were some
    sort of recognized rite of passage for young'uns. But before deciding
    what it should be, I suspect one would have to come up with a personal
    definition of just what it should signify. If it's to indicate "now I
    am a man," what does _that_ mean in the way of responsibilities,
    privileges, and (if any) minimum required abilities? If it's to mean
    "now I am a member of society" (perhaps a wee bit easier to define), it
    might mean "now I can get married/vote/drive a car/drink and smoke/sign
    contracts without anybody's help/go to grown-up prison if I break the
    law" - i.e., all the stuff that currently happens as soon as one
    reaches ages 14/16/18/20/21 (varying by state, and by type of
    privilege), but with (one would hope) some spiffy ceremony associated
    with each stage. [Something better than the "drink 'til you puke"
    ceremony that went with the "last night before reaching legal drinking
    age"...]
    
    Suggestions, anybody?
    
    -b

    
    
    -1
     
     It is hard to explain let alone define it before implementation. I
    have a six year old son that I see every couple of weeks. I tend to
    think in terms of " I will not make the mistake my parents did." I do
    not have a conscious plan of" I must do this and this in order to
    ensure that he becomes a man." Perhaps I do this because I myself have
    not been initiated to the fullest.. My Fathers religious initiations
    were completed,or, atlest I was given his blessing. I do not know what
    it is I am supposed to do to initiate my son... What makes a man a
    man. We are born with the hardware,but there is no clear understanding
    as to what the software is to consist of..
    
    David

    That's quite an attitude you've got, ::PNEAL.

Let me ask you a question.

Would you send your daughter to the prom in the knowledge that one, or perhaps 
more, guys are lurking in the background waiting. They're waiting for your 
daughter, or somebody else's daughter, as their entrance ticket to manhood. 
They pounce, score. And it's all over. Your're daughters embarrassed. Mortally 
embarrassed. She slept with the guy because she thought he liked her. You, and 
your wife, have to pick up the pieces.

Would you send your son to the prom and say 'Hey boy, try and score tonight, 
that way we can drink together as men'.

- Paul

    .21

    Many parents today know that their sons and daughter have had sex or is 
    having a relationship long before they go to the high school prom. 
    And face it lad, sounds like your really reaching for something that is 
    rather exaggerated..  
    
    

    
    864.21
    
     Paul,
    
      I do not think anyone is suggesting the *score* attitude is right.
    
    david

    
    
     Ladies,
    
     Please open up a seperate topic for the discussion of "      "..
    
    
    David

    Boys become men when they accept the responsibility for their actions
    regardless of the consequences.
    
    
    I've found, in my lifetime, a handful of men who, without hesitation
    accept full and unencumbered responsibility for everything they have
    done, are doing, and will do in the future.....I've also found a much
    larger number of boys who sleaze around making excuses for everything
    gone wrong in their lives and others, blaming everyone else for their
    failures and unreached expectations. 
    
    Sorta sums it up.... 
    
    Ken

	Boys become real men when they become man enough to cry and grieve in
	front of other people as an adult.

 that's a circular definition

    How is that a circular definition, Doctah?  I see it as a pretty good
    one.

So if a man doesn't cry or grieve, he's a boy ? I didn't see my Father cry 
or grieve until my mother was dying of cancer but I always considered him a man.

Paul.

    A boy becomes a man when he becomes secure enough about himself to be 
    compassionate towards others.
    
    Jim

What's this, the "Official Sanctimonious Topic?"

RE:32
    >What's this, the "Official Sanctimonious Topic?"
    
     No its not. So why don't you start one ?
    
    Jim

    to contue on .23
    
    There are condums being passed out to students in/on high school
    grounds.

    Re .34
    
    > There are condums being passed out to students in/on high school
    > grounds.
    
    So what?  We all know that boys will be boys.  I'd just as soon see
    them stay out of the AIDS hospices, thank you.

    .35 I was trying to add, poorly to the original remark about school
    kids and sex and proms. And face it you give out condoms, your
    admitting to the fact that school kids have sex before prom time. And
    it is to them a passage of boyz to men.
    
    

    re:.21
    
    No, of course not.  I'd lock her in her room until she's 40, for her
    own good.  Then, maybe I'd think about letting her date.
    
    We both know every man is a potential rapist!

    In my opinion, the transition from boyhood to manhood has nothing to do
    with scoring or crying, a boy becomes a man when he starts to accept
    and welcome responsibility.
    

.38> ...when he starts to accept and welcome responsibility.
   
Good .. add to that .. so that it reads:

"accept, respect, appreciate, honor and welcome responsibility". 

Good show, Z-man.  Right on.

Bubba

    
    In giving this question considerable thought, I keep coming back to the
    question "What is a man?".  Someone that has had intercourse, has the
    ability to vote, drive a car, fight for his country in a war, provide for 
    a family, take responsibility for his own actions??? It is almost like 
    asking what is a good person?  Kind, gentle, sympathetic, honest, 
    trustworthy???? The answer is so multi-dimensional and means something 
    very different from person to person and culture to culture.
    
    Further, in todays times in Western Society I think the delineation between
    Men and Women roles is not clearly defined. When I thought about the
    question "What is a man" - providing for a family?, fight for his
    country?, fix the car?, et cetera - I can do all of that as a woman.
    
    So maybe the original question should be:
            What is it that causes/makes a child to become an adult?
                                           -----              -----
    
    I propose that it is the 'environment' one is maturing in with their
    'parents guidance', that a child becomes an adult (however the environment,
    parents and the individual might define what makes an adult).
                
    /Kim                                         
                      

	"accept, respect, appreciate, honor and welcome responsibility". 

I like it, and I want to shout "hooray that's the answer" but it's too easy. 
I want to add a real life complication and look at the answer from a different
perspective.

Say a guy gets married. It's a mistake but he doesn't know that at the time.
After some years together, for whatever reason, he leaves the marital home.
It was a hard decision, or maybe he was forced to leave. The complication - 
he has a child, or more than one, which he leaves, or is forced to leave 
with his wife.

Within your definition he'd be a man if he went down saluting, lived in a
hole to keep the alimony payments up and saw his kid or kids at the weekend. 
The guy would be a boy if he fought back and stopped the alimony payments
because his ex-wife was spending the money on herself rather than the kids (or
whatever reason appeals to you more).

I like Kims' response which in my words would be, the circumstance (or the
environment) makes the man - how he reacts tells you what kind of man he is.

Paul
  

    .26   Good explanation Ken.  I wonder, how many accept full
    responsibility for EVERYTHING they have ever done?  I know that
    there are a few things I did as a youth which I would not even
    consider doing now, and, which I regret having done.  Responsible?
    Hell yes, but some things don't come easily do they?
    
    There are so many things in life that one has marginal control over
    at best.  Such as, the loss of a job in tough times.  You could
    say that you are totally responsible for the job loss, but, are you?
    I think the answer is yes you are... at least PARTIALLY.
    
    Whats my point?  You can't say a boy is a man when he accepts
    responsibility for everything he does because I questions whether
    ANYBODY EVER FULLY accepts FULL responsibility for everything they
    have ever done.  Its like so many other things... its a shade of gray.
    We are ALL 'growing up' (hopefully anyway) till the day we die.
    
    Jeff

    Many adults like to shove responsibility upon a child to the point
    where some kids are old men before they become adults. I guess there is
    no real formula about how to raise a child cause no two kids growing up
    under the same set of parents ever turn out exact duplicates. And its
    sad to see these young old men and women when the have lost that spark
    of youth too. 
    
    This not is starting to sound like the foundations of building a new
    Boyscouts troop. :) Esp when it seems that there are a few folks who
    flapped their arms when the coming of age was when they had sex.:)
    
    Kids are kids, and when they become adults they still can be kids.
    No doubt. But to me I hope that my daughter has a good child hood as
    much as I have had. And that includes making mischeif. Thats what
    Halloween is about. There are a few folks who might agree with me that
    during the teen ages years kids need a constructive way to let off
    steam and frustration. Otherwise, the constant pushing towards adults
    might lead to the drugs and aochol abuse. 
    
    I guess this could start to lead into a rathole and I better stop.

    
    re .43
    
    It sounds to me like you toilet-papered a few trees in previous years.
    As an adult, I hold you responsible...

    	In the past couple of days I thought about this topic alot.
    	Last night I started to chronicle some things that affected
        my life and if there is a point where boys become men:
    
    
	I remember playing in my back yard with little toy soldiers 
	and trucks and tanks. Green and brown. I remember making roads 
        with sticks that left little mounds of dirt os that the road 
        was defined. I remember playing with cowboys and indians on 
        horseback, plastic with a mold at the bottom so they would 
 	stand up. I took a stick and made fences and forts and used 
        sticks for cover......I was just a little boy.

	I remember being able to leave the yard...not too far, within
        sight of my mom. We lived next door to a grocery store and the
        back yard was sandy dirt. I remember my mother giving me some
        pennies and going to the drug store across the street for candy.
        I remember the big car hitting me when I came out, two big men
        in suits, showing badges, FBI, where did I live? I wasn't hurt,
	more scared of the badges. I was 5.

	I remember playing baseball until dark, sitting on my porch and
        listening to the Red Sox. hating Mickey Mantle and all of the
        Yankees. Burning Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris baseball cards.
        Even those rookie ones. I remember being a Boy Scout and going
        out on my own in the woods to earn a merit badge. I was a boy.

	I remember a girl with red hair. She showed me things I'd heard
        about, never seen, never touched. I felt great, but I didn't
        understand. I remember getting interested in girls, but not having
        them too interested in me. I remember trying to impress them in 
        Junior High by being a football player, swimmer and runner. I 
        remember Audrey telling me that two plaids never matched. I had
        never known I was poor. I remember getting an indoor bathroom
        in 1963. My first shower in my house. Jay Anderson hung himself 
        and he was the first dead body I'd ever seen. I remember crying 
        because the President was shot. Everyone still called me a boy.

	I remember getting tall, being athletic, and having girls after
        me. Taking advantage of them, using them? Or were they using me?
        Switching girlfriends at my camp. Chasing every girl that would
        come within sight. Staying up late, sex, cigarettes, talk, and
        a job that paid $1.15 an hour. I remember bouncing a ball off the
        beach house with John Roberts the day before he left for Viet Nam
        in August. I remember seeing him in his casket with a Purple Heart,
        a Silver Star in his USMC Dress Blues in Oct. I was a boy.

	I remember graduating from high school and going to work. And 
        getting my draft notice. I hardly remember joining the navy. I
        was terrified. I was engaged. I went to Boot Camp. I got a Dear
        John 5 days before I went home. I remember flying to Viet Nam,
        landing on an aircraft carrier, meeting Bob Hope and Anne Margaret.
	I remember doing crazy stuff....I was still a boy.

	I remember the grim times being shot down, not being hurt, feeling
        lucky. Four years in the combat zone ...being immortal.....
        I remember the Chaplain saying "Your father has died, you fly out
        tomorrow." I remember my mom looking so bad, my brother and sister
        so little. I remember someone saying, "You'll have to be the man 
        of the house now." I was still a boy.

	I remember being married, I don't remember falling in love. I must
        have done that the first time we met because I did feel different 
        from the moment I met her. I remember the first time I saw my 
        daughter......so little. How fast all this had happened. Now she's
        about to graduate from high school and there's two other lives 
        besides hers.

	I don't remember when I turned so gray, when those laugh lines 
        became wrinkles............I don't remember when I became a
        man.


        Ken   
                                                                  

    And the wheels they go round and round
    the painted ponies go up and down
    we're all on a carosel of time....:)

    what causes a boy to become a man? 
    
    -puberty

Ken, thanks for sharing that.  It was beautiful to read, very moving.
I was in a trance as I read it, like I was there experiencing it all.

/Eric

    
    -1 
    
      It was like listening to the narrator of the Wonder years, fantastic
    Ken....
                                                    
    David

    Ken,
    
    Ya know, the good thing about this country is that (except for the war)
    my youth wasn't that much different from yours (I'm 26).  The more things
    change, the more they stay the same, eh?
    
    I wish I could describe my life as eloquently as you did for yours. 
    Maybe that's what it means to be a man; to be able to look back at
    the path you've taken, and understand and accept the good and the bad
    that you've been through; and learn and grow accordingly.
    
    You're gonna get a HUGE head, but I'm going to go back and read your
    reply again, it was great!
    
    Jon

    re .45, interesting to read, but I couldn't identify with much of
    anything, even though I think we're of similar age, probably because I
    was a girl.
    
    You remember all that, but you really don't remember falling in love? 
    Falling in love is what I remember best.
    
    
    Lorna
    

.51>     Falling in love is what I remember best.
	...
>	 probably because I was a girl.

In our culture, most boys and men learn not to pay attention to their 
feelings.  Mostly we notice that we have a feeling after it has caused us 
to do something surprising.

Like Ken, I can remember being in love, but not falling in love.


As to the base note, I have no idea what makes boys become men.  I think I 
am a man, although I can't give you a definition, and I suspect I would not
pass some people's criteria.  I know that I have still many boyish aspects, 
some of which I like and some I don't.

I could not tell you when I stopped being mostly a boy, although I suspect 
it took twenty years or so.  I think I was a boy when I was 15 and 
not when I was 35.