Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Must be because of all that violents we see now on TV where a women hits
a man just because he doesn't agree with her.

				LEC

    Was it Norman Lier (sp) who wrote a book about the feminist revolution
    of the early 70's? Welp... I saw him on the tube the other day and the
    remarks now are that not only are women aggressive, they play the same
    games as the men in the good ol boy/girl network and they are just if
    not more ruthless as the men. 

    
    
    Basenoter,
    
     Are you sure it's not just a case of just being  reported more
    ofte now. You know sort of a male backlash " See wymyn ain't perfect
    either, or where was the the video camera when my girlfriend pounced
    on me for leaving the seat up again" :-)
    
 David

    
    
    I think society in general is getting much more physically violent.
    Look at the toys that are still on the market for kids.  Now at least
    around here the latest rage are the super water guns that shoot like
    200 feet or somewhere around there.  Look at the Teenage Mutant Ninja
    toys.  They are all used in a violent manner.  Physical abuse is
    either being reported more or is actually happening more frequently. 
    
    As for women competing in the old boy network, sure we do.  We have
    no other choice though when it comes to our careers.  If we want to
    play with the big boys we need to play like a big boy.   I also think
    that there are a few generations of women who were raised with the
    thinking that they can do whatever they want to as long as they
    put their minds to it.  These women know how to compete.  The
    game is always going to be there, but the players will continue
    to change.  

    There have always been brawling women, if not perhaps in the same
    numbers as brawling men. Often it just didn't get reported - for
    example, the ever-popular Victorian era tended to ignore any behavior
    outside of that of the uppitiest upper classes, and would simply never
    mention that there were washerwomen in Whitechapel punching each
    other's noses...
    
    It does seem as if violent reactions are on the upswing, though. People
    have accused the economic situation, drugs, availability of handguns,
    and/or the loss of family values. [Digression re "traditional family
    values": I seem to recall a movie called "The Fighting Sullivans," in
    which a large and loving family was depicted as having a *wonderful*
    time fighting with anybody at hand, including each other. Those were
    the good old days, I guess.]
    
    I'm just worried that so many more people seem quick on the trigger. An
    argument that used to be settled with words, or at worst a brief
    scuffle, now often seems to result in gunplay. Hey, maybe all those
    Westerns really _did_ warp our collective psyche...
    
    -b

If Dan Quayle can blame the LA riots on Murphy Brown, I can blame violent
women on the Fabulous Moolah.

    
    -1
    
    :^)
    
    
    David
    

    re:.0
    
    There's one big difference - the women seem to go for weapons more
    often than men do, beer bottles, pipes, knives and guns, when they
    get in a "fist fight."  Men tend to duke it out barehanded.
    
    Some group studied fights in high schools and found that the girls
    (or women) were involved in more fights than boys (or men) were, in
    an average school year.  Some kind of weapon was used in a larger
    percentage of the female-female fights, than the male-male fights.

	re: 8

	I've read that in a *fight* between a man and a women, the
	women will usually go for some type of weapon (to make her
	feel more equal), but I hadn't read anything about any
	percentages of women vs women fighting with weapons in
	comparison to men.

	As for myself, if another women attacked me, I don't think
	I would know how to fight to defend myself. I would probably
	resort to pinching, twisting and poking. I don't know how
	to use my fists. 
	
	<sigh> I suppose I've have to go and take a boxing course
	at the local gym.


	kits

    
    I can attest to this......
    
    I am a woman and all though I have not done much *fighting* in my
    lifetime - I had one experience I'll never forget.  
    
    I used to play softball on woman's league a few years ago.  
    My best friend of whom is a softball fanatic, talked me into joining a 
    league and "playing for fun". To my surprise, I found that women in 
    sports per say are VERY competitive.  Most of the women that we played 
    with and against I can honestly swear that they had some type of male 
    hormone in their bodies and were incredibly agressive.
    
    All though I am 5'6", I am not a large women - not like these women
    anyways and weigh approximately 119 lbs.  Most of these women
    out-weighed me by at least 75 to 100 lbs.  I'm not saying they were
    obese - they were built like men!
    
    After a weekend of softball games in an out-of-town tournament, a few
    of us on my team decided to head to a local tavern for some
    *refreshments*.  My team had placed 2nd overall in the tournament and
    we felt pretty good about that, but were extremely tired.  An entire
    team of one of the other women's teams came in to the tavern with
    the same idea shortly after we did.  We had beaten them out of 2nd place
    and they were not too happy about this - needless to say a fight broke
    out between a women on our team and woman on their team and suddenly
    everybody started fighting.  I won't go into the gory details, but
    I ended up with a broken hand and badly bruised ribs, my girlfriend
    had her nose broken and at one point during all of this I literally
    saw one woman from the other team pick up a member from our team, over
    her head and threw her across the room.  There were no weapons used
    of any kind - just a basic "bar-room brawl", like some of you men have
    been involved in.
    
    I was floored, I couldn't believe that this was happening at the time
    and I surely couldn't believe the kind of fighting taking place.  It
    wasn't the "womanly" way of fighting with scratching, hair pulling,
    etc., it was fists, face smashing and furniture bashing.
    
    Needless to say - I quit playing ball after that on women's league's
    and started playing co-ed.  It was much more fun, and the only brawls
    that took place were arguments over who got the most out's on the team
    meaning they had to buy the beer.
    
    -Lynn
    
    

    In the study I saw, "weapons" included book bags and full cans of
    soda.
    
    It was anything besides just hands.  Might have included feet, too,
    I forget.

    re: .10
    
    Who won?  :^)

    re: -1
    
    Well considering that there were only 5 of us on my team and the other
    team had their *entire* team there - it certainly wasn't us.
    
    It wasn't really a win or loose situation though - but we did get our
    share of a good beating that night (ha, ha).
    
    -Lynn
    

Lynn,

Considering these women might really be 200lb men, I don't think I'd get in
the ring again without a 10 pound bat with me.  

Stick to co-ed, drinking is more fun than winning or getting your head bashed
in. 8^)

David

    
    
    -1
    
     Good advice :-)

    re .10, god, what a horror show.  I'm so glad I've always hated sports.
    
    re .9, okay, you practice boxing.  I'm gonna practice running.
    
    Lorna
    

	I'd like to take this opportunity to plug a wonderful co-ed
	softball organization in Nashua.  Emphasis on fun and socializing,
	although sometimes someone remembers what the score is.

	Contact Martin Dickau (CLT::DICKAU) to get on the list.  Games
	are most Wednesdays at the Westgate Village softball diamond
	(Martin has directions).

	One of the things I miss most since moving to Chicago . . . .

	-Jim

    
    re: .14 
    
    I'm not the fighting type and hadn't planned on fighting that night,
    but it was the kind of scenario - "either fight or get beaten to a
    pulp."
    
    I agree - co-ed is much more, especially since the game is played
    for fun and it really doesn't matter who win's or looses....just
    as long as *I* don't have to buy the beer (h, ha).
    
    -Lynn
    

 I don't agree with the idea that sports bring out the fighters, but
 I do believe you can have to many rats in the same cage. (studies have shown)

 I also don't believe co-ed is better but I'm sure it is more fun.
 
 Remember fighting only take place when communication breaks down. (WW1,WW2)
 The problem is that people have not learned to take the time to communicate
 but it takes no effort to show you have more power. (life goes on) 

 LEC
    

    
    
    > when communication breaks down ( WW1,WW2 )
    
      Britian Talked alot, even got a fancy piece of paper,gosh come
    to think of it so did the U.S.S.R.  Maybe comm or lack of comm
    is not necesarily the key to avoiding fights.
    
    
    David

    	For WW1 have you looked at political maps of Africa before and
    after, and wondered if ownership of colonies might have been a motive?
    
    	You would hardly have fought the war in Africa (nasty hot place,
    and too far from home), but whoever won was going to take most of
    central Africa in the peace treaty.

Well when it comes to history about these wars I'll take the back seat.

As I understand history - it was the events that took place that started the
wars with very little communication between. I just feel with better 
communication we could avoid most. Case and point - the Gulf War

Sorry I used the wars as my example - I was really taking about fighting.

	LEC

    
    
    Monahan,
    
      The suggestion was made that " A breakdown in communication" was the
    source of wars. To debate that greed is not a motive would be insane
    on my part. But that greed has something to do with communication as
    related by the previous author is a straw man arguement.
    
    
    David

>798.23

Your suggestion that my view point is a "straw man arguement" shows
your own myopic view.  This is the problem with people who can't communicate.
They always try to vilify the other persons view.

Good example on how a war can start. No greed here. 

Now - where is that yellow brick road? "ha"

LCE

    
    
    > your own myopic view
    
    
      Is not is not you straw man you.:-) But seriously Cook the fact that
    I chose to disagree with you verbally, and also to explain the
    difficulty I have with your arguement, is proof that I am not a person
    who cannot communicate. And if you disagree with this I will punch your
    lights out :-)
    
    David

    	Poor communication can be a cause for a war, but it can also be a
    technique for starting one. In the case of the Gulf war, the U.S.
    needed to control the growing military power of Irak and its imminent
    capability to deploy nuclear and biological weapons. In this case I am
    inclined to believe it was a technique, but that is just my personal
    opinion.
    
    	Not that this has anything to do with women brawling, except that
    it was a woman that was chosen to deliver the misleading communication.

    David
    
    I think.............. I have no comment

    LEC    

    
    
    > I think.............. I have no comment
    
    
      Lec,
    
       There you have it, this unwillingness to communicate is undoubtedly
    a declaration ow WAR!!! Prepare do defend you silence, I attack at
    dawn, or maybe evening, depends on what kind of makeup I decide to
    wear :-)
    
    
    David the Terrible

  Dave

    In this case it depends on your definition of communication.  Telling
    some one you are wanting to start a war and fight is not communication.

    Also making comments that simple insults the other persons view is to me
    simple the bullets.  It is not that I'm unwilling to communicate,
    I just don't agree with your definition of it and I'm not willing to 
    ASCII/text fight over it. Part of communication is learning to listen.

    But really - I have enough bullet holes in me.  I want to get back to the
    subject of woman acting like men.  I find this subject very interesting.

    I have always felt that men are no better or worse than women but often
    men are place in situation that often brings out the worse in the human
    race.  I feel as women take on the same rows as men, they will do about
    the same thing.  The good news is that men will not be carrying as much
    responsibility and will be come less aggressive

    LEC the Lion Hearted
      

    
    
     -1 LEC,
    
    
      Lighten up would yah. i put enough smiley faces on my responses to
    choke a horse! Regarding my def of comm, I suspect that it's not
    really this , but my insistence that comm or the absence of com is
    not the end all start all of wars. But if you choose to disengage at
    this point, so be it! Kinda ruins your point tho'
    
    
    David

       I have a 12 year old son that lives with me.  I have a 10 year old
       daughter who lives with my ex wife.

       My ex-wife got my son one of these 'Soaker 200' water guns (I didn't
       have a problem with this.) and gave it to him at a little birthday
       party we had for him last weekend.  My 10 year old daughter was
       there along with my ex-wife's husband and my ex-wife.  The first
       thing he did of course was to fill it up (it holds a couple of
       quarts!) and take it outside.  We all followed him out and of
       course he squirted all of us with it.  When he squirted his mother,
       she ran away.  When he squirted me I charged him, took it from him
       and squirted him back. My ex's husband did the same thing as I did. 
       When he squirted his little sister she went in the house, got a
       bucket of water, charged him and drenched him with the bucket of
       water.

       I don't know if this is a microcasm of our culture but I have taught
       my daughters that they don't have to take any crap from people.
       They don't have to be victims.  My 10 year old, Emily, does not play
       the frightened fawn role.  When someone attacks her she retaliates.
       I don't know why the stats on females violence is going up so
       quickly but I suspect it's because females are standing up for
       themselves.

       As an aside, I found that I had to spend a lot more time with my
       daughter to teach her the rules of 'return in kind' than my son.  I
       have such a small sample I don't care to speculate too much but she
       tended toward 'over retaliation' more than my son. Hmmmmmm.

       patrick

    
    -1
    
      Wow what a coincidence. My son attended a birthday party a couple
    of weekends ago, and at this party a Soaker 200 was being used. My son
    dished it out as well as he took it. Occasionally when they would
    squirt above the neck ( clear violation of  Supreme Command of all
    Dads in attendance) the child would cry " Foul, foul, you have broken
    the rules" where as the girls participating in the battle would not
    complain but rather turn to the judges without saying a word and get
    the judgement. The girls also cloobberd the snot oughta the boys once
    there parents gave themt he order to fight back. Gee I wonder if this
    is proof that wymyn could be better soldiers?? My son had a blast up
    until the when another youngin got hot and popped him with a right
    cross, m x still has'nt forgiven me :-)
    
    
    David

    
    Re: Cook & Dyben
    
    I was merely stating a scenario that had taken place that I had been
    involved in - I apologize for creating an argument.
    
    I do have to disagree with "Cook" though - this situation had
    absolutely nothing to do with communication, lack of or other wise.
    This *fight* had to with ego's and hurt prides.
    
    Certainly wasn't "lady-like" (ha, ha).
    
    -Lynn
    

    
    
    Lynn,
    
    
      Were not arguing. But yes you did start it all :-)
    
    
    
    David

    
    Ok David -
    
    I'll take all blame today, but that's only because as of 4:00 PM today
    I"M ON VACATION!!! (ha, ha)
    
    -Lynn
    

    
    
    > I'll take the blame today,
    
    
      Thanks kiddo! I'l save up more blame for when you get  back from
    vacation :-)
    
    
    David