Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    Oops.  That should have read What is the threat.
    
    Sorry.
    
    Ellen

    I dont think its a control issue, more likley it's a self confidence
    issue. He feels inferior. In either case control or inferiority
    complex, she should dump him , from what Ive seen that type of
    relationship will only led to grief for the women.
    

    
    re Ellen,
    
    There's a note in -mn- somewhere that talks about "knockouts" being
    tough to date.  You might find that informative.
    
    Probably more of a security thing than a control thing.  He may
    feel that someone who is too attractive will generate too much
    competition form him to contend with.  Someone who is too independet
    may be too apt to leave at the first provocation/opportunity.
    Relationships and marriage are becoming *very* risky buisness for
    the male of the species these days.
    
    Also someone who seems in control of their own life can stir up
    all kind of emotions to someone whose own life seems out of control.
    Envy, intimidation, fear that the one in control won't understand
    if they find out how out of control your life is.  Especially if
    you are male.  After all, aren't men supposed to have *everything*
    under control *all* the time, or at least put up a good act.
    
    If your friend really is concerned about this the first thing she's
    going to have to do is get past the male stereotypes to the *person*
    inside.  Maybe that persion isn't salvageable, but maybe with just
    a little work and understanding........
    
    fred();

    
    Thanks Fred,
    
    I think I can understand someone having these feelings.  Do you think
    they ever get beyond them?  Also, I would really appreciate you
    elaborating on why it's "very" risky for men to be in relationships or
    marriage.  I really don't understand.
    
    Ellen

    re-.1
    Because we stand the most too lose! The women will usually get the
    house,kids,car  in the event things don't work out. The man usually
    can expect to recieve only the bill for said luxurys.
    
    -j

    
    
    I dont think it is he that wants to control her life.  I think
    he was not brought up by women in his life who were in the
    position this woman is today, and he knows nothing else.
    I've been told that I intimidate men.  To me I find this very
    funny cause I'm only 5'1" and weigh in at a hefty 105.  So
    my size does not intimidate.
    
    However, I've learned from these men that they had not had
    a role model that was like me.  The women in their lives were
    not like the women are today.  I think it is very intimidating
    for men to know that women no longer need them as a sole source
    of financial support.  Most younger women today were raised
    to be very independent and do support themselves.  
    
    In this situation, it is the mans self-esteem that needs some
    work.  He needs to figure out just what it is that intimidates
    him.  Then find out the reasons why.  

    re .4
    
    To .5 I would add the fact that all it takes these days is the
    *accusation* of sexual or physical impropriety to, if not put a
    man in jail, bankrupt him and ruin his career.  Pregnency, whether
    planned or unplanned can put a *major* dent in a man's financial
    status for the next 20 years.
    
    Contrary to the mainstream of publicity, there is a high degree of
    emotional investment in relationship/marriage for *most* men.  It
    doesn't take getting your testicles ripped off by some woman or
    the courts very many times to really make a fella gun-shy.  I don't
    know what the situation/history of the man-in-question-here is, nor
    much more about the woman-in-question-here, but she could well now
    be paying the price for some other woman's activities.
    
    Traditionally the "glue" that has held a relationship together was
    a certain amount of emotional/physical dependence of the male for
    the woman and a certain amount of emotional/financial dependence
    of the woman on the male.  If you take one side or the other of
    that away (which it may appear to the man-in-question here) then
    the other party is left on very shaky ground.
    
    How do you overcome this situation?  I don't have any quick answers.
    It will take a certain amount of risk and investment on her part.  
    She should decide what she wants out of this and go in with her eye's
    wide open.  What I have presented is only one possibility.  On the
    other hand, there is a proverb that says, "beware of the strong, silent
    type.  They may just be silent".  If the woman-in-question believes that 
    this relationship is worth a little time, risk, and investment, then, 
    if I am right, the payoff could be tremendous.
    
    fred();

    
    Thank you all so much, I'm learning a great deal and beginning to
    understand that there is a real fear for a man.
    
    The issue of intimidation is something that has been said to me on 
    occasion, and I've never really understood what exactly that means
    by nature I'm shy.  I do appear confident, and for the most part 
    handle the challenges in my life.  The ones that I feel I can't, I
    handle them at home alone until I can get a perspective on them and
    deal with them effectively. Is it intimidating to a man for a woman
    to seem to be in control of her life (really?)
    
    The role model issue is enlightening also, I had not thought of that at
    all.
    
    It really seems such a shame to me that so many men and women are
    hurting and being hurt for past mistakes and fear of future mistakes.
    Is the answer really just to shrug our shoulders and  move on to 
    someone else thinking that it's his/her fault?  How is anything really
    going to be resolved if we continue to interact with each other in this
    manner?
    
    If I seem to be getting philosophical, I appologize, I really do want
    to understand.
    
    Ellen

    
    
    re -1
    
    Our past mistakes (if the lesson was learned) are what make us
    what we are today.  How can anyone not acknowledge the fears
    associated with such?  If one truly has learned the lesson from
    making the mistake, then they now know what not to repeat. 
    

    Ellen,
    
    I'll agree with much of what has been said already. I don't believe it
    is a control issue. I believe it is a self confidence issue on his
    part. 
    
    Some men do want to control women, just like some women want to
    manipulate men. IMO, in both cases, it is because of a lack of self
    confidence. If a person, male or female, is secure with themselves,
    they do not feel the need to control others or feel intimidated by
    them.
    
    Although you corrected it in .1, I'll go with your original question
    "What is the treat?" concerning intelligent, attractive women. 
    The treat for a man who is secure is a relationship that can be far 
    more rewarding than otherwise. While, like most men, I am visually
    oriented and definitely appreciate an attractive woman, I personally
    believe the sexiest thing about a woman is her intelligence. Only an
    intelligent woman can keep my interest in the bedroom and out. 
    
    Let's face it, no matter how much we think we might like to, we can't
    spend our whole lives in bed with another person. If you can't talk to
    the other person about the weather, politics, global warming, world
    affairs, etc., etc. then the relationship will not last long regardless
    of how great the sex might be.
    
    If your friend is really interested in this guy I suggest she have a
    talk with him and be fairly blunt. She'll need to be willing to work
    with him to build up his self confidence. That does not mean she should
    play dumb to make him look good. He would see through it, and she would
    feel cheapened. I suggest she look for areas where he excels and try to
    do those things to let him get comfortable with the idea that he is just
    as good a person as anyone else. His talents may just be in different
    areas.
    
    A good, lasting relationship doesn't just happen. It takes a lot of
    work. If they are attracted to each other then they already have the
    incentive to work on the relationship. Remind your friend not to be too
    serious, though. An occasional joke and a lite moment can go a long way
    towards keeping things in perspective.
    
    I wish them luck. 
    
    Feel free to contact me off line if you so desire.
    
    Mike
      

    
    RE.                 <<< Note 793.8 by JULIET::WILKES_EL >>>
    
    
    >                   -< Where does Love fit in? >-
    
    	Love comes in on the emotional part of the emotional/financial 
    "glue".  This is why many women get very insecure when "he never 
    tells me he loves me" because that is part of the woman's security 
    in the relationship.  The financial part is why many women seem to be 
    attracted by the size of a man's wallet than anything else, and why 
    more marriages break up over monetary problems than any other. 
    
    >Is it intimidating to a man for a woman
    >to seem to be in control of her life (really?)
    
    Not so much *control* ( because control to me carries a connotation
    of power--ie have power over ) as *dependence*.  Because the 
    dependence of a woman on the man is, traditionally, part of the 
    male's security in a relationship.  Again contrary to popular 
    publicity, a large part of a male's identity/phyche is to be a
    provider/protector.  If she is too independent, then she takes
    at least part of that identity and security from him.  
    
    Conversly that is why so many women go in for breast implants, because
    part of the security and identy of a woman is the /physical part
    of the relationship and current popular publicity is that a "woman"
    has large breasts.
    
    >It really seems such a shame to me that so many men and women are
    >hurting and being hurt for past mistakes and fear of future mistakes.
    >Is the answer really just to shrug our shoulders and  move on to 
    >someone else thinking that it's his/her fault?  How is anything really
    >going to be resolved if we continue to interact with each other in this
    >manner?
    
    I think I have found an answer in that the "threat" here is 
    *insecurity*.  He cannot feel secure in the relationship for 
    (whaterver) reasons.  He may well be carrying a lot of emotional
    baggage from a previous relationship.  (To use an old cliche "once
    bitten twice shy".)  Then again he may indeed be a major head case.
    As I said before, I don't have a whole lot of information to go on
    here.  So if she is indeed serious about this realationship she 
    should keep her eyes open.  If case 1)insecurity, then she will have
    to help him define and overcome that insecurity some how.  If case 2) 
    headcase, she should run like %$#@.  She should keep her eyes open.
    
    fred();

    re:intimidating women
    
    	I'm among those men who also find a bright woman a real pleasure to
    be around.  A woman who's in control of her life is fine with me!.  I don't
    want to feel that I'm responsible for someone elses happiness, and anyone
    in control of her life realizes that she, and she alone, is responsible
    for her own happiness.  Bimbos need not apply here (not that they're 
    beating the door down, anyway!).
    	I _do_ get intimidated by the 'knockouts', though.  I don't think that 
    that they're approachable by mere mortals like myself; if I was so 
    fortunate as to get a date with one, I'd eventually lose out to some 
    blow-dried yuppie with a BMW...  why bother?
    
    
    larry
    In control of my life, and of very little else...

    
    Maybe I should clarify one thing here.  When I talk about "dependency"
    I am not talking about the barefoot and pregnant kind of dependency.
    I too prefer women who can make intelligent decisions and have
    conficence in themselves.  What I mean is the "life would be a 
    serious b**ch if you weren't around" type of dependency.  A type
    of dependency that would make working out problems more attractive
    that running to divorce court.
    
    fred();

    You could always give her my phone number...
    
    OK, direct answer to a direct question: I'm afraid my best guess at the
    guy's problem is that he's crazy.  He's got an incredible ego fixation
    and keeps baiting her and backing off so as to prove he's clever enough
    to manipulate.  It keeps him in the power seat -- the thrill of
    seduction over and over again.  But he's too much of a screw-up to
    actually try to prove he's anything worthwhile outside of his head
    game.
    
    God knows there's too many crazy people around for me to feel sorry for
    all of 'em.
    
    Ray

    some of these comments make quite a bit of sense. But, if this guy is
    insecure how in the heck do you help him feel more secure without
    jeopardizing your own needs?
    
    Example.  The phone rings. Insecure guy picks it up.  Says it's for you. 
     It's a friend asking for some help on a math problem.  You give friendly 
    help and say good-by, good-luck.  Then the insecure guy accusses you of
    wanting to pick up on the caller.
    
    I have a feeling of what's going on in the insecure's mind....he thinks
    that the male caller would like to jump your bones and is just waiting
    for the right time.  Mr. insecure feels that his girl would oblige the
    caller.  Why?  
    The girl never gave Mr. Insecure reason to believe such
    a thing.  Mr. Insecure concocts these happenings in his mind over and
    over 'til he believes it's real.  He ends up pushing his girl away. A
    girl that never wanted anyone else in the first place.
    
    What the heck can you do with such an insecure guy? Is this when you
    have a headcase?
    

    re:.0
    
    Either he's the psycho date from hell or she's not telling you
    something.

    
    I don't want to complicate a situation that is probably already short
    on data, but it probably depends on what you mean by intelligence. 
    
    My failed relationship with a very intelligent woman, was made somewhat 
    uncomfortable, but her trying to apply her theories of relativity and
    all the other wonderfull theories of life itself, to day-to-day
    situations e.g. how the the grass grows in the garden. My time would be
    spent thinking how long I could leave it before it needed cutting. When 
    you apply this type of intelligence to life it sure gets tedious and 
    nothing is that black and white as far as I'm concerned. Intelligence to 
    me is more around commonsense.
    
    I guess I'm a bit insecure and I like to feel needed by my partner. If
    they really are that independant, carry out their own life with ease
    and control and make it plain they could do the tasks of your day as well
    if they had a few more hours in the day, it's real easy to feel redundant.
    
    Maybe as previous replies have stated, it's not intelligence at fault, 
    but control.
    
    Sorry can't get the last 7 years down any shorter.
    
    Steve

    
    Where is she ? Intelligent ... ?  Attractive ... ?
    
    Please, where are you ? Is that you Ellen, or a friend of yours ? 
    Can we go out for a dance ?
    
    No, I really don't believe! Is the shortage of MEN so severe in the
    States that an attractive and intelligent (TOO as you said, whatever
    it means) woman has to lose precious time of her life with a pre-historic
    specimen ? Oh God, what happens out there ?
    
    Oh, I see. The problem is that X-cromossome is a small Carl Lewis and
    therefore the Y has no chances. Much more women than men leads to this
    kind of situations.
    
    Promise me one thing : don't waste your time with such jerks, no matter
    how cute they are, unless you want to feel miserable for the rest of
    your life.
    
    See you (?)
    
    J�lio

    
    	Re .0 -
    
    	You bet it's a control issue.
    
    	But not necessarily in the context of him controlling her. I
    think that he's intimidated by the control she has over her own
    life, because his life is out of control, comparitively speaking.
    
    	I also believe this is the basis for men feeling threatened
    by attractive women. The fear is not of the woman, per se, it's
    more a fear of the loss of control an attractive woman, er,  
    "represents".
    
    	Some of the more objectifying advertizements for women's products
    crack me up, because of this "irony". It's like the woman pictured
    really needs whatever it is being advertized, above and beyond what
    she's so clearly endowed with naturally. So, with *this*, she perhaps
    just crosses that line to where she - all the more probably - scares 
    them all away.
    
    	I understand that you dont understand this. My wife told me
    that she didnt understand this in men when she was dating. A woman
    goes to the gym, is wearing quite...admirable dress and has herself 
    looking, to her, the best she's ever - and when it comes time for the 
    man that she's with and wants to respond, he backs off! And she's left 
    feeling "Wha!? I dont get it!!? These men supposedly all want someone
    attractive and here I am *very* attractive and...I get nothing from
    him"

    	Perhaps the fella you desrcibe just has a fairly loose grip
    on his own life and fears "losing himself" completely. He's willing
    to put his big toe in the water, but the crocodiles swimming around
    in there scare him. I suspect that he's going to *have to* take his
    complaint of "intimidation" one level down to what it really is,
    and tell her about it; how he really feels, how he's too scared to feel
    really comfortable; that he's "out of his comfort_zone" with her.
    
    	It's entirely possible that she'd respond to that compassionately.
    It's also entirely possible that she'll leave him to try to find
    someone less "intimidated" by her. However, someone less "intimidated"
    might just be a womanizer or she might find herself in the same
    boat again, as she begins to really get to know the next person.
    This says a lot for having compassion, if and when this guy is able
    to honestly share his true feeling with her.
    
    	That of course, would require a little getting past his ego.

    	Hope this helps!
    
    	Joe

    
    Thank you all for your concern and your honesty.  I have decided that
    in my situation it's best to accept that for whatever reason, things
    did not work out.  My friend has read your responses and has decided to
    try and work things out with her SO.
    
    I've learned a great deal about this subject from you and will remember
    the next time I interact with a man to be perhaps a little more sensi-
    tive.
    
    Again, Thank you