Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    <is there some unwritten rule>
    yes 
    <Where were the fathers>
    probably at home drinking/watching televison. The Celtics were on.
    
    <what keeps the fathers from being involved>
    fear of embarrassment?
    belief that at the primary levels a mother has more to offer?

    In Acton, which is a middle-class, upper-middle class suburb of
    Maynard/Route 128, I used to see a fair number of fathers in primary
    school, and -more recently- a lot in secondary school. 

> ...it seems that for the most part, men still abdicate this role to the 
> women.  Why is this? 

conditioning; men learned how to be men from their own fathers, and their
own fathers probably didn't go to PTA (or PTO ;-) meetings.  In the daily
routine, eat, work, commute, errands, chores, sleep...I'm sure there's an
active unconsciousness (is that a contradiction in terms?) or call it an
ability to avoid *noticing* that they are really abdicating the role.  Much
easier to take the responsibilities you see other men taking; much harder
to decide that if your children are important to you then a PTA meeting is
deserving of your time.

This ability to self-delude is endemic to our society.  Welcome to another
example.  Fixing it means shifting the cultural values in substantial ways;
which is *NOT* saying that the cultural values *should* be that men have to
go to PTA meetings!  It means that the cultural values that let people avoid
noticing their real choices and their real actions must be confronted and
changed.  Whether that is best done by pointing out all of the millions of
examples, or by Naming the problems as avoidance and denial, or in some other
way, isn't clear to me.  Naming is the best we've got so far.  It has been
shown to be effective in helping individuals re-examine their choices.  I
think that your pointing out your observation of who attends PTO meetings
as a method for raising consciousness, is good.

DougO

    Men are *very* involved at my son's school. I know a lot of fathers
    there. I think it really depends on how high a priority education has
    in a family though. The higher the priority to less likely it is the
    woman does it all. Though even in families where the father is active
    it seldom means just the father is active. So there are probably a
    lot more mothers than fathers involved.
    
    There are also different ways fathers get involved. I don't attend PTO
    meetings but I've served on the school board. I don't give reading help
    but I have helped coach the basketball team and teach a computer class.
    PTA seems to be "a woman thing" very often but other activities seem
    to have better representation from men.
    
    			Alfred

    Unwritten rules, shifting cultural values around, where are the slime
    ball uncaring fathers, .... drinking beer, watching the Celtics....
    
    I'm sure there are many reasons why fathers DO or DON'T attend.  The
    lack of their presence at such an event doesn't make them less of a
    father than some of the males they did attend.  Perhaps them not
    attending knocks them down on the scale of fatherhood but perhaps they
    make up for that decline in other areas... perhaps of even more
    importance.

    Perhaps many of the women were divorced, and have a restraining order
    on the fathers for even being on the same planet as their children. 

    A year ago last Christmas, I went to Keene N.H. to help a friend avoid
    false arrest. He went to see his daughter sing in an Christmas Pageant.
    I watched his ex, who was standing a mere feet from me, walk out of
    the auditorium, head out across the street, and call the cops. There was
    no TRO's of any nature. But she was going to have him, that rasputian,
    arrested. And thrown in jail...... 

    We slipped out the back door, like thieves, in to the night. He cried.
    I guided him to his car. 
    
    Perhaps if there was less anger, less of the power plays, and the egos
    involved. Children would grow up knowing both parents. As I have said
    in the past. Children are not exclusively either mom or dads. They are
    on loan to us from God. And then they turn 18 and belong to someone
    else.
    
    Peace

    There is no question in my mind that there might be a few fathers of
    Nashua primary school kids who are under court order not to be near
    their kids -some of these fathers probably deserve such a court order
    others of these fathers probably don't. There is also no question in my
    mind that some of the fathers who were not there had useful/important
    things to do.
    Some of the fathers were probably at home drinking and watching
    televison.
    And some of the fathers were likely dealing with a conscious or
    unconscious fear of embarrassment.
    And some of the fathers likely believe that at the primary levels a
    mother has more to offer
    Where do we go from here?
    I think there is an implicit praising of the fathers who attended.
    There seems also to be an implicit expression of concern that not
    many attended/attend.
    I think it's unfortunate that another snarling session is underway
    already. (i think .5 & .6 are snarling)
    I wonder whether the notion "I did it, why didn't any others?" already
    sets up a frame of reference that some find antagonistic?
    It sure would be refreshing if this can be continued without any more
    snarling.
    
    				herb
    
    p.s.
    As one of the fathers who sometimes sat at home drinking, I feel
    comfortable saying that is one of the things that some of the fathers
    were doing.

    reg. note 769.6
    
    I just read it and tears filled my eyes, because I now exactly how that
    guy felt. I have seen my daughter twice at the local mall since July of
    1991. The pain of being away from your children is so bad that I could
    not even begin to explain how much it hurts. It does not matter if the
    exiled parent is male or female it just HURTS !!!! deep inside!!!!!.
    
    My daughter told me to my face that she wants nothing to do with me,
    all I wanted to do after that was to just crawl into a little ball 
    and DIE.
    
    There are many fathers that would love to attend functions for their
    children but they legally can't.
    
    Lenny

         While I personally attend the PTA meetings etc out here in
         Colorado I do notice that there are more women than men.  I
         assumed that this was due to the fact that there are a lot of
         single head of household families out there and most of them are
         run by women. In my experience before I had custody of my son for
         example I didn't attend these meetings for several reasons:

	 1.  I didn't know about them because my ex-wife didn't tell me.
	 2.  If she had told me I might not have gone at one time because
	 of the tension between her and I.  (We have resolved this and it
	 would not be a problem today.)

         I know that it's hard to work all day and then have to find the
         energy to get your butt to a school meeting, at my son's school
         they try to involve parents in other ways. I have daily
         communication with all my son's Teachers via his 'Assignment
         Notebook'.  I sign it for him every day as do his teachers.  If he
         misses an assignment or turns one in late I know about it.  When
         the teacher conferences come around there are no surprises.  It's
         a way to involve parents in their childrens day to day school work
         without their having to get in their car and go to the school.

	 patrick

    Keeping track of the kids' education is work.  It's a job that has to 
    be done.  Since while my kids' have been in school I have worked
    full-time and my wife hasn't, and also because she was, prior to having
    children, a high school teacher, it was always understood that tracking
    the kids' education was more part of her job description than mine.
    I think this is the way a lot of families work.  In my community they
    don't have PTA meetings, so I've never been.  I have gone to most of
    the night time events.  I have occasionally gone to a day time event,
    particularly if my wife couldn't do it.  I admit that I never know the
    names of my kids' teachers.  My wife not only knows all their names and
    abilities, but also the names and abilities of all the teachers my
    kids are likely to have in the near future.  
    
    					- Vick
    

    p.s. 
    Another reason why (particularly in primary schools) only one
    parent might attend would be that the other parent was at home
    babysitting the other pre-primary school children. The idea of 'taking
    turns' in this scenario is offset in some people's minds by the
    advantage of continuity if the same parent is always interfacing with
    the school system.

    I agree with .11.  Many times its not necessary to have both parents
    attend, the info can be shared later.  After a long day at school my
    kids always preferred to have at least one of us at home as opposed to
    a babysitter.  I also know a lot of fathers who work 2nd or 3rd shift,
    my husband did both of these shifts during the elementary school years,
    necessitating an occasional sitter for these school meetings.  A lot of
    this information can also be obtained from neighbors or a simple call
    to the school.  Most of the info discussed at these meetings is sent
    home at some point anyway.
    
    

When my kids were in grade school, I wasn't a regular attendee of PTA meetings,
however I was a regular participant in all of the activities that went along
with it (fund raisers, spring festival, playground improvement, etc.). Someone
needed to stay home with the kids while the meeting was being held, so their
mother attended the meetings and I stayed home.

I agree with DougO regarding the conditioning, however. When I was in grade
school it wasn't called PTO. And it wasn't called PTA. It was called the
Mothers' Club (early 50s).

-Jack

    There are many fathers who are active members of the Boy Scouts, Girl
    Scouts, church orgs. Etc. These activities must count for something?
    One gentleman I know of was all of the above. And his ex was into men.
    Lots of men. Even had a child thru mutual acquaintance. This man raised
    the child as if it was his own. And the state, the ex, etc, have made
    this man a visitor in the lives of his children. Even the child that
    isn't his.....

    I also agree with Vicks reply that the fathers are probably home
    watching their children.  A few years ago, a group of parents in my
    neighborhood (including myself), got together to fight the school
    committee to get busing for our children. (They wanted to have the
    children walk to school - over 1 mile - starting in first grade). 
    Anyways, the majority of the members of our group were men.  Usually
    the parents would take turns attending the meetings (father one week,
    mother the next).  And for the lucky couples who had a relative living
    close-by, both parents attended together.  I always noticed that the
    fathers were just as involved as the mothers.  But my community is
    probably a bit different from Steve's community -- the cost of living
    is a bit lower in my area, therefore the father is usually the main
    bread winner and the mother either works part time or not at all. 
    Also, all of my neighbors are all married -- I am the only single
    parent in my neighborhood.
    
    I also noticed that usually when a hot topic came up at either the PTO
    or School Committee meetings, then both parents tried to attend --- the
    more parents, the better off your position is -- but it all depends.
    
    Well, that's my 2 cents . . . 
    Debby