Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    My wife is just starting a master's program, and one of her professors
    wears light makeup.  He appears to be het (wife and kids), and the
    makeup doesn't look bad at all.
    
    When I played "Officer Krupke" last summer in "West Side Story" I, of
    course, had to wear some makeup.  The director likes light makeup.  
    I liked the effect, actually.  But, forget it, I don't even
    like it when my wife wears makeup.  :^)  It's the natural look for me.
    
    						- Vick

    Well, I hate makeup on myself (smells funny, feels icky, looks weird
    from close up [though I admit it sometimes looks pretty good from a
    distance, or on photos or videotape]), and wouldn't like it any better
    on a man with whom I wanted to "get close," as the saying goes. 
    
    'sides, it just smears all over _everything_. ;-)
    
    But if I fell for someone who happened to like wearing makeup, I guess
    I could get used to it. (And get to be a pretty dab hand with the cold
    cream...)
    
    -b

	Make-up is the visual analog to cologne.  Either is intended to
	enhance anothers perception of oneself.

	A little bit is acceptable;  too much is offensive;  I prefer
	none at all.

	-Jim

    He speaks!!!!  Hi, Jim.  :^)  - Vick

    <this ought to start a lively discussion>
    
    should one assume that that is the purpose of the entry?

    Makeup is fine where what you need is the visual effect *only*.
    
    	For personal contact, if it is going to be closer than just
    looking, then, have you ever nibbled an ear and found it didn't taste
    the way you expected? Scent is a little different since you can detect
    it from a distance, and some of it is nice, so it doesn't come as a
    shock.
    
    	For myself, I get holes cut in the hair so I can see out, but I
    don't think makeup would be appropriate. I agree with .2 that it is
    sometimes needed for photos or videotape, but that is a defect of the
    media.

    re question:
    
    Anything that would make Richard Nixon look better is _by my definitions_
    evil.

    You'll find that historically in most cultures men wore makeup or
    dressed up to go into battle.  Still true today.  You had to look real
    vicious and intimidate your opponent.  
    
    Women still use this tactic judging from the vicious makeup jobs some
    women apply.

    	I wouldn't wear makeup just because I move pretty slow in the
    morning and find it hard enough to manage to get shaved before I have
    to be out the door.  Spending significant time on another useless
    morning ritual is _not_ what I want to do!
    
    	On women, I definitely feel that less is more.  I find that just a
    touch of the stuff is plenty; more is too much.
    

    Another deep discussion about a question that has been burning in men's
    minds for centuries. When do we discuss cartoon shows men like to
    watch? 

    No wonder men are getting the crap stomped out of them in the political
    arena. I can only shake my head in wonder.


    			Wayne

I would not wear makeup as I do not believe that my face needs any cosmetic
enhancement.

Rich

    Aha, at last, a question to which I can tryuly answer DILLYGAF.
    
    I think makeup, like lipstick, finger nail polish, hairspray, etc.,
    is a frivolous exercise for either gender.
    
    ed

    Don't care if people do or don't wear makeup.  Some women seem to 
    really over-do it though...  In an intimate setting, definately
    prefer no makeup (but then that's never really been an issue in
    my experience).
    
    /Greg
    
    PS - Wayne, who are the men getting the crap stomped out of them in
         the political arena?  I'm shaking my head in wonder too (albeit
         for a different reason I suspect).

    greg,
    
    	You can spend your time talking about makeup and dressing up, I
    have to go wash my face from laughing so hard.
    
    
    
    			Wayne

    > have to go wash my face
    
    Ok Wayne, I understand.
    
    Tears of laughter do tend to make one's mascara run (or so I've
    heard).
    
    /Greg

    Greg you are hysterical, do you also do stand up comedy.

    			Wayne

    > do you also do stand up comedy.
    
    No, I prefer to sit here and take pot-shots at you when you
    pop into each topic in the file to tell us how absurd you think 
    we all are for discussing......well anything really - see, we don't 
    know ahead of time whether any topic is sufficiently manly enough for 
    you cause you've never given us a description of what *you* want to 
    talk about...only what you don't want other people to talk about.
    
    It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
    
    /Greg
    

    A few years ago, some TV news show did a small report on Japanese
    men.  Some cosmetics companies were successfully marketing makeup
    to them.  Speculators figured we were about 5 years behind.  Guess
    not.

    
    
    I like men who look like men..(feel free to call that a sterotype!)
    call me conservative....
    I guess that that would cover men carrying purses, wearing pantyhose
    or skirts....I guess that a guy with mascarra would be a major turn
    off.....nail polish? come on.....
    ugh...
    
    cat
    

    In case anyone was confused, I don't wear makeup and I don't
    know any men who do wear makeup (unless you count using Oxy-10
    to help clear up acne).
    
    I don't think there is anything wrong with men using makeup
    if they want to.
    
    I have seen ads for "Clinique" (I think) skin products that
    are targeted at men, but I don't know if they are the same
    thing as the stuff I see women use.
    
    Oh - now that I think of it, I do know one guy who sells
    Nuskin(?) - or at least he used too - via this "network marketing" 
    company.  It's a collection of skin products...  I think he said 
    he uses some of the stuff.
    
    
    

    What it means to "look like a man" changes within a few years.  If you
    knew any man who had a pony tail or wore earings around 1975 you
    wouldn't admit it.

    I'd assume that most of the guys who wear makeup wear it precisely to
    look "more like a man", Joel Gray and Paul Reubens to the contrary.
    
    Ray

    I remember about 25 years ago when the idea of men wearing any thing
    on their hair except hair oil was considered efeminate.
    
    Bonnie

    Re: .5 Herb
    
    Of course my purpose was to start what I hoped would be a lively
    discussion.  Must you always be so circumspectly suspicious in
    appearance?  I was interested in the idea, and felt it worthwhile to
    ask others what they thought.  This is, after all, MENNOTES, and I am
    (or was, last time I looked) a man.
    
    Re: Wayne
    
    Thank you, Greg, for saying what I might have said.  I might have added
    that it is Wayne whose remarks are so absurd.  Consider, Wayne, how
    terribly narrow you must appear to anyone with any consciousness of the
    world about us.  Don't bother taking umbrage; I won't reply to your
    efforts to entitle your agenda through declamatory rhetoric.
    
    -dick

    re .24
    
    sometimes I am circumspectly suspicious in appearance
    sometimes I am blatantly     suspicious in appearance
    sometimes I don't appear     suspicious in appearance at all.
    
    The base note triggered my suspicious circuits. Sometimes the
    triggering matches up to intent sometimes it doesn't. Perhaps this time
    it doesn't match up. If this is one of those times, so be it.
    
    
    				herb

    
     Maybe men don't wear make up beacause it would like like hell once the
    5 o'clock shadow started poking through.
    
    TC
    

 re: .20

 Nu Skin is not makeup (though perhaps new products have been introduced that 
include some forms of makeup.) Nu Skin is skin care products (cleansers,
moisturizers, etc.) They aren't things designed to cover up what you look
like, they are things designed to improve skin tone, reduce wrinkles, etc.

    Nu Skin is also being investigated and sued all over the country for
    illegal business practices.  That doesn't bother me too much.  What I
    find very strange and repulsive is that Nu Skin is reputed to be made
    from human placenta.  Give me a break!
    
    
    Marv
    

    Placenta has been used in many beauty products for the hormones. I
    have owned several Nu_skin products and don't recall that as a specific
    ingrediant. 

    I, personally, don't like "makeup" on men, but there was a man I knew
    who put bronzing gel on his face so he'd look as if he had a tan.  It
    didn't look *that* bad, but he needed practice blending it in!!
    
    -Dotti.

    Can I ask what is "makeup" in this discussion ?
    
    Does it include hand/body/facial creames and lotions ?
    Does it include hair gel and spray ?
    
    OR, is "makeup" in this topic limited to things like
    eyeliners, lipstick, blush, eyelashesnail polish, etc
    that most people associate with woman
    
    
    I remember in Jr.High when David Bowie had the world in awe
    of all his personalities and costumes, there were many rumors
    of his being a homosexual/bisexual,etc ... primarily because
    he used makeup (most things associated with women)
    I remember all kinds of young Jr.High boys dressing like Bowie,
    Edgar Winter and Robert Plant ... there hasn't been nothing like it
    ever since
    
    Today the use of those things closely associated with women
    (makeup) is more limited in use ... men on TV, punkers and homosexuals
    
    

 Yep- Human placental extract is an ingredient in several Nu Skin products.

    RE: .31
    
    >Today the use of those things closely associated with women
    >(makeup) is more limited in use ... men on TV, punkers and homosexuals
    
    In the interest of accuracy, 'homosexuals' in the above excerpt
    should be replaced with 'cross dressers' or 'drag queens.'  
    
    

    	I have eczema and psoriasis. I have a red patch on my forehead and
    another on my cheek under my right eye next to my nose. Under normal
    circumstances I leave it alone and treat it with medication. When my
    wife and I go out, if the patch is very red, I use a base cosmetic.
    Most people tend to stare at the red spot and I get self concious about
    it, wondering if it's flaking or starting to 'clump'. When clumping
    starts, it looks like a lump of scales. 
    
    	I'm 6'2" 240#. Anyone who would comment in a derogatory manner I
    would tend to ignore. Anyone who would make an issue of it is less
    secure than I am. Anyone who would make fun of me, is a fool.
    
    Ken

> Yep- Human placental extract is an ingredient in several Nu Skin products.
    
    Umbilieveable.
    

    Oh, there are lots of ingredients in makeup that don't bear close
    examination. I read that fish scales are used to give many lipsticks
    their sheen; like, how 'bout them sexy fish lips?
    
    -b

    Heavy metal dudes work almost as much on their makeup as their hair,
    dudes.
    
    Ray Dude

    Kris
    
    as I said previously, it is commonly used as a source of various
    human hormones such as estrogen. Lots of companies not just Nu_Skin
    use placentas for this purpose.
    
    Bonnie

    I have no doubt.  "Umbili_eveable" was a bad attempt at even worse
    humour.

    Re: .31
    
    My intent was to discuss the use of makeup as it is normally understood
    for enhancing women's facial appearance, i.e., lipstick, mascara,
    eyeliners, pencils, blushers, etc.  But I don't feel empowered to limit
    the discussion to only those items.
    
    I wouldn't normally consider gobbing on heavy makeup to go after the
    male equivalent of the Nefertiti look -- would that be the Ramses look? 
    No, I thought not.  :-)  But I'm not convinced that a judicious and
    discreet application of, say, mascara would be harmful to a man's looks
    or to his general appeal.  I know women who use mascara to darken their
    pale-blond lashes; surely a man wouldn't be unjustified in doing the
    same?  This isn't really a serious departure from the "natural" look,
    yet if done correctly it could be wonderfully enhancing.
    
    -dick

    Isn't it curious that it's mainly women who wear makeup in our culture,
    whereas if you look at other cultures, specifically more primitive
    ones, you see that it's the men doing all the making-up...
    
    Also, it's generally the case that the male of the species is the showy
    one (take a peacock as an example), so why is it so different today?
    
    Paul. (Who prefers women without, or with little makeup... the natural
           look! True beauty always shines...)

    
>    Also, it's generally the case that the male of the species is the showy
>   one (take a peacock as an example), so why is it so different today?
    
	Just conjecture, but perhaps women wear makeup Because men
	are naturally the "showy" gender of the species . . . .


	-Jim (who also prefers women with little or no makeup; can't
	      say as I believe my own statement, above)

    
    	::WIECHMANN,
    	hi ....i see it the other way around....
    	that men are the shown gender...not the showy....

    AS a woman who wears makeup only because in the office it looks "more
    professional" (coming from one of my former managers who yelled at me
    for not wearing tons of it caked on) -- I can't for the life of me see
    why a man would want to wear makeup.
    
    It makes your face feel so icky.  There are a few occasions when I feel
    that it has made me look more beauitful, but I figure that beauty
    should not be artificial.  My husband didn't marry me because of what I
    look like in makeup and dressed to kill.  It was just part of the
    package. 
    
    I don't see anything wrong with men wearing make up.  Whatever makes
    you happy.  Besides, lots of entertainers wear makeup, especially
    actors and rock singers.  It is acceptable for them ... although to be
    quite honest, I would be totally distracted sitting in a meeting
    checking out some guy's eyeshadow or blush or mascara.  It is too
    foreign a concept for me in this type of work setting ...
    
    Tammi

    
    I think that men are, in fact, the peacocks of the species (as the
    males in many species are....peacocks, ducks, species of frogs, lions,
    etc - the male is more "attractive" oftentimes, more "beautiful", or
    visually eyecatching).  Up until the middle ages men often wore more
    jewelry, richer and more sumptuous clothing, and women wore dowdier
    things.  I don't wear makeup because I'm allergic to most of it, and
    even though it looks good it's not ME really, and I'm just not about
    "classic socially-approved beauty".  I nearly majored in cosmetology in
    high school, though, because I enjoyed making people beautiful.  Some
    of the differences in looks were nothing short of breathtaking.  
    
    Truth be told, a little goes a long way in my opinion.
    
    And I think men would look great in eyeliner and a little bit of cheek
    blush.
    
    -Jody
    

>    And I think men would look great in eyeliner and a little bit of cheek
>    blush.
    
    Sort of that "Boy George/Devine" look, Jody?
    

    
    well I never thought either of them was particularly attractive to
    begin with.  Actually, I think many men are by and large more
    attractive than women naturally are (no offense meant to anyone!).  Men
    often have rosier cheeks and lips naturally, more attractive hair, than
    women.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    -Jody
    

	I'm not convinced that women should wear make-up. Why do they?
	Most look better without it. No, men should not wear it and I
	would not. 

			Alfred

    re .48, you probably haven't seen most women without make-up and, if
    you did, might change your mind!
    
    Lorna
    

    FWIW - I quit wearing makeup about 6 weeks ago.  I've had more
    compliments NOT wearing it than I did wearing it.  
    
    Karen

    I, for one, prefer au naturelle, with respect to make-up of course.
    
    ed

>   I, for one, prefer au naturelle, with respect to make-up of course.

 And women's fashions. :-)

re:        <<< Note 751.49 by DELNI::STHILAIRE "well...maybe just a sip" >>>

>>    re .48, you probably haven't seen most women without make-up and, if
>>    you did, might change your mind!
    
I guess I'm not most women then. I've never worn make-up in my life..I think
it's awful and time consuming and useless (and probably expensive). I think
if women had never started wearing the stuff nobody would have noticed.

I think it's equally silly on men, but I don't have to worry about my 
husband wearing it since most of his face is covered with a beard, and I
think all men should have beards :-).

Jenna

    Jenna,
    	Just as I haven't seen most women without makeup, you've
    never seen me with a beard!  It's really scruffy!  I'm sure most women
    look better without makeup than I'd look with a beard.
    
    larry
    who_tried_a_beard_once

    Re: -1;
    
    I think you'd be surprised how many men (in the UK) prefer women
    without war-paint. There are many of us who feel that "painted" women
    must be out to hide something, especially if it isn't just a touch to
    enhance the looks, but a plaster of foundation, loads of eye stuff and
    bold lipstick. Not that I'm saying every woman uses so much, you
    understand, but there's a lovely fresh look about a lady "au
    naturelle", especially the lovely Southern Irish girls I've met, whose
    pleasant speech and good carriage also serve to enhance their natural
    beauty (oooooer, that sounds a bit "classical").
    
    Virtually all of the men I know (when we get onto the subject)
    disapprove of more than a trace of make-up, feeling that it imparts a
    "tarty" look to a woman.
    
    Maybe European tastes just differ from the American ones on this
    subject; they do in lots of other things.

    My wife, has been a professional cosmetician, owning a number of Beauty
    salons specializing in skin treatments, and makeup. She was also a
    marketing manager for a MAJOR cosmetics company. As she says,
    
    	Makeup, properly applied, should not be identifiable as a discreet
    	addition. It should  simply enhance a women's best natural features.
    
    q
    

    
    RE .56 I agree.
    
    I prefer the natural look but I've also found over the years, 
    to my amazement, of the number of woman who think that they 
    must wear makeup otherwise they think they look unattractive.
    
    From a social point of view I believe that woman feel that they
    must wear makeup to appear attactive.
    
    A small amount of makeup applied well has an enhancing effect for
    the cheekbones et cetera but too much as .56 said makes a woman look
    like a tart.
    
    So ladies forget the social stigma, if there is one, us blokes think
    you look great without it.
    
    JN.
    
    

    When you say that you think women look better without make-up, I'm
    curious what age women you're thinking of?  Do you mean women under 25? 
    Under 30?  look better without make-up?  I'm just curious if you think
    women over 40 look better without make-up?  How about women over 50? 
    Over 60?
    
    Lorna
    

    
>    When you say that you think women look better without make-up, I'm
>    curious what age women you're thinking of?  Do you mean women under 25? 
>    Under 30?  look better without make-up?  I'm just curious if you think
>    women over 40 look better without make-up?  How about women over 50? 
>    Over 60?
    
    IMO, women in the following age range look better without makeup ...
    
         0 < Their Age < Death  (or 125 whichever comes first)
    
    
    Greg
    
    

    Greg

    I think you don't know when women are made up subtly what a difference
    it makes to their appearance. Make up base to smooth out skin flaws,
    blush to brighten sallow skin, color to bring out light eye brows,
    or bring forward receeding eyes.... these are often things that
    men don't even notice. Yet, I've been at times with men who say they
    don't like make up, but tell my how good I look when I do my usual
    subtle make up job, or comment on other women looking good, when
    I notice that they have on make up but, again that it isn't obvious.
    
    So my take on it, is that most men object to *obvious* dramatic
    make up, and actually like women with lighter amounts on, but simply
    don't realize it is make up.
    
    Bonnie

    And then there are the men who may not notice subtle makeup on a face,
    but definitely notice it when it gets rubbed off on their shirts... ;-)
    
    Come on, is it so difficult to believe that some men really _do_ prefer
    women without makeup? Admittedly, most of the complaints seem to be
    against _excessive_ makeup, but there are plenty of men who would
    prefer a woman au naturelle to one who spent a lot of time to _look_
    "naturelle", or who don't want to smell "eau de Max Factor" when they
    get close...
    
    At least, I hope so. ;-)
    
    -b

    How/where do women learn to apply "warpaint"?  Isn't this a slumber party
    activity or do you actually go for some type of class?  Since slumber
    parties tend to be female activities (with the males trying to crash...)
    wouldn't it follow that makeup (unless having a theatrical background)
    would be one of those female rites of passage?

    
    I learned to apply warpaint in high school - went to a vocational
    school and spent 2 weeks in cosmetology.  I got tips from books and
    magazines, and trial and error! (plenty of error, in my time!)
    
    I generally don't wear it these days, though.  But I like making up
    other people (for evenings out or drama purposes).  It's like taking
    paint from a pallette and putting it on a canvas - like art!  I can
    vary the results from subtle to overwhelming (meow!).
    
    
    -Jody

    re .61, Bonnie, I think you're right.
    
    Lorna
    

    my wife has never worn makeup and looks just fine. (I am 54, she is
    over 21, we have been married 25 years)
    
    
    				herb

I don't think I've ever looked at a woman who didn't wear makeup and feel
that she would look better with it, but I've certainly seen many women who
were wearing it who I thought would be better off without it (or with less,
anyway.)

My personal preference is that if I can tell from more than six feet away
that a woman is wearing makeup, she has too much on, and I find this
unattractive.

As for men wearing makeup - well, just compare how your favorite actor appears
in films with how he looks in real life.  Chances are he looks better in
the films, and that's largely due to makeup.

				Steve

    Well, speaking only for myself, I see myself both with and without
    make-up, and I definitely think I look much better with it.  If I
    didn't I wouldn't waste the time putting it on, or the money buying it! 
    As a matter of fact, sometimes I think it's amazing how *much* better I
    look with just a little make-up added, than without.  I think it makes
    a world of difference.
    
    Do any other women feel the same about themselves?
    
    Lorna
    

re .61
    
>    I think you don't know when women are made up subtly what a difference
>    it makes to their appearance. 

    I'm sure it is true that many times I do not know (and also appreciate
    the change).
    
    
>    So my take on it, is that most men object to *obvious* dramatic
>    make up, and actually like women with lighter amounts on, but simply
>    don't realize it is make up.

    I agree with this somewhat also.  
    
    I think knowledge is a key element.  To use an extreme example, I may
    think a women who has had plastic surgery (breast implants, etc) is
    attractive if I do not know about the surgery.  However, when I know
    that she had implants I no longer find the her as attractive.  For me
    makeup works the same way, even subtle treatment.        
    
    A find the fact that a women is comfortable with her natural self is
    much more appealing than the possible positive effects of tampering
    with that natural self.  
    
    I can set myself as inconsistant here because I see diet and exercise
    as "natural" attempts at taking care of oneself while makeup and
    surgery are "artifical attempts ... that's a line easily argued.
    
    Greg
              
    PS - I think the same holds for men who get treatments for baldness,
    use steriods to build muscles, or etc.                                 

>My personal preference is that if I can tell from more than six feet away
>that a woman is wearing makeup, she has too much on, and I find this
>unattractive.

    	I agree with you on this one. A woman can wear all the makeup
    she wants but if I can tell it's there it's probably too much.

>As for men wearing makeup - well, just compare how your favorite actor appears
>in films with how he looks in real life.  Chances are he looks better in
>the films, and that's largely due to makeup.

    I don't know. Isn't most of the make up actors wear mostly to
    compensate for lighting effects? Or for extreme close ups? 

    			Alfred

    re: .68
    
    I think I look *prettier* with makeup, but I don't generally want to
    look *prettier*.  I doubt that makes sense.  I mean, many women want to
    look prettier, but I don't.
    
    -Jody

    re .69, I think there's a big difference between adding a touch of
    blush and mascara, and having cosmetic surgery!!
    
    Lorna
    

    re .71, I think I can understand why you don't want to look "prettier"
    or at least I have some ideas.  For one thing, there's a big difference
    in our ages, you're still under 30, while I'm over 40, and perhaps
    already seeing the effects of middle-age when I look in the mirror. 
    For another thing, you have above average intellect, education and
    talent, whereas I'm more of an an average smuck, in all aspects of
    life.  I think it may be more understandable that average people, with
    neither exceptional looks or intelligence might hope to be a little bit
    prettier, (might hope to be smarter, too, for that matter!)  I would
    guess that you might think of yourself as being above such lowly
    desires, as wanting to be prettier!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
    
    Lorna.
    
    You asked me what age group I was looking at when saying I thought
    that woman looked better without make-up. Well thats a difficult
    question to answer in a specific way but as far as age group is
    concerned I think I can generalise and say up to about the mid 40s
    early 50s. That doesn't mean to say that woman look better with
    makeup after that age, it just means that I pay less attention to
    woman of that age group. Barbara Cartland is a good example of an
    older woman who would, IMO, fair better without make-up.
    
    I pay most attention to woman (the way they look) about 3 to 4 years
    either side of my own age, I'm 26. 
    
    I have a question for our respected elder generation.
    
    If you have been married to the same person for 25/30 years, see that
    person every day and lived with them for this amount of time then how
    does your partner look to you ?? Do you notice the differences ?
    
    Its fair to say that you're perhaps not as fresh today as you were then
    but what do you see when you look at your partner ?? Or yourself for
    that matter ? I've looked at myself in the mirror everyday for
    god knows how long (I'm not vain but I need to shave) but I see no 
    real difference. When I look at a photo of myself from 6/7 years ago 
    I look totally different.
    
    JN.
    
    

    
>    re .69, I think there's a big difference between adding a touch of
>    blush and mascara, and having cosmetic surgery!!
    
    
    So do I.
    
    We could set up a continum of activities to improve ones looks that run
    from very natural (picking the apple instead of the cupcake) to the
    very artifical (plastic surgery) ... applying makeup lies somewhere
    towards the middle of the continum.  For me it's on the same side as
    plastic surgery ... from the sound of your notes I'd say for you it is
    not on the same side ... that's great ... hey different strokes for
    different folks.  
                                                               
    I'm lucky I'm in a relationship where we share virtually identical
    philosophies about this .. wash and wear body care ... it works for us
    ... and Emmy and I are the only two people in the world to which my
    opinion on this stuff make one hoot of difference (as it should be).   
    
    Take care,
    Greg
    

re .73:

What the world needs -- makeup for the brain.  It doesn't make you smarter,
it makes you *look* smarter.

    Lorna
    
    I definitely think I'm prettier with makeup on and my hair set..
    maybe this is a topic for womannotes tho...
    
    Bon

    re .77, it would be funny to see what men would think if, for just one
    day, all the women who work at DEC came to work without any
    make-up...just washed their hair, brushed it, let it dry natural, washed
    their face and dryed it, and brushed their teeth.  No make-up.  I think
    the guys might get a surprise.  Ha-ha
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .78: Surprise is right. "Hey, you washed your hair!"
    
    ;-)
    
    -b

    me too, Lorna, me too..
    
    I remember seeing a picture of Joan Collins without makeup and the
    difference was *amazing* you'd never know she was the same woman.
    
    Bonnie

    That 'beautiful' and hugely sexy Caterina Witt is extremely enticing to
    look at.
    Until it seems clear that she is heavily pancaked with makeup. Real
    turn-off for me.

    In the mornin', when we rise
    In the mornin', when we rise
    That's the time
    That's the time
    I love you best
    
    (i.e., no makeup and a wonderful mess.)
    
    						- Vick

    re .82, yeah, but you're talking about a woman you're already in love
    with.
    
    The point is not that men, in happy relationships, who love their wives
    to pieces, love them best, or just as much, without make-up and with
    messy hair.  The point is that I think that when men say they prefer
    women without make-up, that they have no idea how many women wear
    make-up, and I think that there are a lot of women walking around
    Digital, that many men may consider very attractive, without having any
    idea just how much effort they put into their looks.  
    
    Lorna
    

    I think the women would be more suprised than the men, Lorna.  The
    only thing about seeing someone without makeup on is that the
    expectation of appearance has been set.  The reaction would be no
    different if the hairstyle changed.
    
    My sister is a model and wears makeup as part of her job.  She does not
    wear makeup when she's not working.  Neither do her coworkers.  All
    look much more appealing without makeup.
    
    I suppose if you (the general 'you') are butt ugly, anything which
    covers up parts of your face would be considered an improvement but
    this is an exception.  Certainly not the rule.

    re:.83
    
    Bingo.

	I think women are most attractive when they seem comfortable with
	themselves.  I know women who are very self conscious without
	makeup, and women who think they look like "a clown" when wearing
	any makeup at all.

	If wearing makeup or not wearing makeup makes someone feel good
	about oneself, then it makes them more attractive.

	-Jim

    re: .73
    
    I'm glad you put the smiley on that one, Lorna.
    Cause for one thing, I think you *are* pretty, and would *still* be
    pretty even sans makeup.
    And I think you may be selling yourself a wee bit short on the
    personality/talent/smarts department.
    
    I think the reason I don't want to be prettier is because to me it
    feels *threatening* to be seen as a veneer, an attractive surface that
    people can then project ideas, expectations, and assumptions on.  I
    want to leave as little room for that as possible.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    I also feel I look better with makeup, just eye makeup though.  I
    absolutely hate the feel of any makeup on my face, so forgo foundation,
    blush, etc.  My eyes are fairly small without makeup and some neutral
    eye shadow with eyeliner and mascara really bring them out and brighten
    up my face.  Most guys I have dated notice the difference with and
    without eye makeup but aren't phased by it.  I, however, am extremely
    self-conscious!
    
    -Roberta
    

    As a man I don't see nothing wrong with a woman using a "bit"
    of makeup as a nature helper. Even if most women don't need it, 
    certainly not all the time. 
    
    Me I find that the greatest nature helper of all is a nice smile 
    and a friendly disposition.
    
    Also, I have noticed that women who wear makeup habitually ruin
    their faces. To the point were their skin looks dead without it,
    make up is no substitude for a bit of sun light and a good diet.
    
    	Gil

    re .89, some people need cosmetic help even to have a nice smile.  But,
    maybe braces, etc., meet with your lofty approval?
    
    Lorna
    

    I've always wondered how women can be so picky about a mans appearance
    when they wear a "fake" face  each day yet a man wearing makeup has
    points againt him for wearing a fake face. I guess the gender gap
    between men and women is built largly on double standards.
    
    -j
    

    I saw a woman in an evening gown this past weekend who had on no
    makeup whatsoever.  She looked terrible, IMO.  Maybe if she were
    in jeans, but not a fancy evening dress.

    -j
    
    I don't have any problem with men wearing makeup if they  wish.
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    	I was in a corporate office office in Waltham yesterday. A woman
    walked in with a beautiful red and blue suit. Hair was straight....
    sort of stringy.
    
    	No make up, no nylons, legs not shaved recently. A pair of butt
    ugly black low cut shoes. 
    
    	A very, very expensive shoulder briefcase and matching handbag.
    
    	I have a hard time understanding whysomeone as attractive as this
    woman is, would not use a minimum of color on her lips at the least and
    take the time to shave her legs for a meeting considering that her
    skirt was hemmed to the mid-knee. I'd be willing to bet that her suit 
    cost at least $300 and the bag set $500. 
    
    	The guy sitting next to me was one of those ruggedly handsome,
    tanned guys with an "athletic" build. I couldn't say 100%, but I think 
    he was wearing makeup to cover a scar under his lower lip.
    
    	Is it vanity for the man and an independent stance for the woman?
    
    Ken

I almost never wear make-up because I am allergic to scent such as perfume,
detergent, soap, make-up....anything with scent added.  I can wear some of
the scent-free hypoallergenic stuff, but only for a few hours, and never 2
days in a row or I break out in hives.  So once in a while I wear make-up
if it's a special occasion, but usually I just don't bother.  And personally,
I don't care if anyone thinks I'd look better with it, although that's
probably correct, since it's not them that has to deal with the hives.  And
the opinions that count (mine and my husband's) are that plain is fine.

    > 	I have a hard time understanding whysomeone as attractive as this
    > woman is, would not use a minimum of color on her lips at the least 

    Personally, I have a hard time understanding why you think it is
    relevant in such a business situation whether a woman is "attractive" 
    or not. She is trying to do a job, dammit, not find a mate!! 

    Do you feel that men should also try to look as "attractive" as possible 
    at work? If so, attractive to whom? 

    June.

    <Do you feel that men should also try to look as "attractive" as possible 
    <at work? If so, attractive to whom? 
    
    Yes, i do.     
    
    I think both men and women have a general responsibility with some
    exceptions to be both neat, and clean.  If we are representing our
    company in dealings with another company or with the public I think we
    also have a responsibility to be at least presentable with a level of
    "respectability" but certainly not male or femal "prettiness')
    comparable to that of public figures such as politicians or t.v.
    personalities. 
    
    All of which I believe you know perfectly well (dammit).
    
    As far as attractive to whom...
    That suggests to me that you are indignant about something
    perhaps you could indicate what is causing that indignation and why you
    don't understand the answer to that question yourself?
    I hope you'll agree that if there isn't agreement on an implicit
    understanding of the answer to the question "attractive to whom", that
    this exchange isn't going to be much more than a shouting match.
    
    
    thankyou for escalating the volume level.
    
    				herb

    There's a difference between looking as "attractive as possible" and
    looking "neat and clean and ... respectable". Some people may decide
    that the former requires makeup, but the latter shouldn't. In fact,
    putting on makeup would seem to me to be counter to looking "clean",
    since makeup is foreign matter applied to the skin...

    I think you are nit picking.
    That surprises me.

    
    re. -1 , -2
    
    I think it was far from nit-picking ... I agree that "neat and clean"
    can can be quite different from "attractive".            
    
    Greg
    

    ok

    re:.96
    
    The nerve of that sexyst male-type-person to notice what she looked
    like!  Poke his eyes out for that!

    I don't believe .98 was nit-picking - notice that the original quote was
    as "attractive *as possible*", which implies "appearance to the nines",
    if you will. Going all out for looks and just trying to look reasonable
    are in different categories.

    Also, at the root of the word "attractive" is the verb "to attract" -
    it's reasonable to infer that wanting to look "attractive" (whether "as
    possible" or not) is different and can have different parameters than
    wanting to simply look neat, clean, respectable, etc. - which have more
    as a goal the desire to fit in, and not to repel, than to attract.

    This is silly.
    The first person to say "as attractive as possible" is the author of
    .96
    The person she challenged never said that.
    My response to "as attractive as possible" was what I said.
    Instead of saying "yes"
    perhaps I should have said
    "yes, in the sense that ...
    
    
    <Do you feel that men should also try to look as "attractive" as possible 
    <at work? If so, attractive to whom? 
    
    Yes, i do, at least in the sense that ...     
    
    I think both men and women have a general responsibility with some
    exceptions to be both neat, and clean.  If we are representing our
    company in dealings with another company or with the public I think we
    also have a responsibility to be at least presentable with a level of
    "respectability" but certainly not male or femal "prettiness')
    comparable to that of public figures such as politicians or t.v.
    personalities. 
    
    All of which I believe you know perfectly well (dammit).
    
    As far as attractive to whom...
    That suggests to me that you are indignant about something
    perhaps you could indicate what is causing that indignation and why you
    don't understand the answer to that question yourself?
    I hope you'll agree that if there isn't agreement on an implicit
    understanding of the answer to the question "attractive to whom", that
    this exchange isn't going to be much more than a shouting match.
    
    
    thankyou for escalating the volume level.
    
    				herb

>    	Is it vanity for the man and an independent stance for the woman?
    
    Yes to the first clause, maybe to the second (it might just be typical 
    engineer-in-a-suit geeky absentmindedness), and both cases seem pretty
    harmless.  I agree with a couple of the other noters that it seems odd
    to think in terms of "attractiveness" when you're really talking about
    "corporate uniforms" -- can't get much more unattractive, though I
    understand the occasional need to wear 'em.
    
    Ray

    re.93
    I can assure you the day I start wearing it snowballs will rain
    in hell.
    
    -j

    So have none of you gentlemen who openly disdain makeup for men ever
    used a product such as tinted Clearasil?
    
    			Steve

    Re .97

    > All of which I believe you know perfectly well (dammit).
    .
    > That suggests to me that you are indignant about something
    .
    > this exchange isn't going to be much more than a shouting match.
    .
    > thankyou for escalating the volume level.

    Herb, do calm down! I am really baffled by your note. I simply expressed 
    my honest opinion, which is that a woman's attractiveness is not relevant 
    in a work situation. Looking clean, neat, etc may well be, but I don't 
    think that is the same thing as looking attractive. I don't know why that 
    hit such a raw nerve with you, but it obviously did. 

    .103 put it well:

    > Also, at the root of the word "attractive" is the verb "to attract" -
    > it's reasonable to infer that wanting to look "attractive" (whether "as
    > possible" or not) is different and can have different parameters than
    > wanting to simply look neat, clean, respectable, etc. - which have more
    > as a goal the desire to fit in, and not to repel, than to attract.

    Now, I don't think it is necessary for a woman to wear makeup simply to 
    be non-repellant, but that was the impression I got from .94. After the 
    "minimum of color on her lips" comment, Ken went on to mention a man 
    "wearing makeup to cover a scar under his lower lip". I don't think the 
    two things are comparable, because I don't regard a woman's mouth as a 
    blemish that must be concealed. 


    .102> The nerve of that sexyst male-type-person to notice what she looked
    .102> like!  Poke his eyes out for that!

    Thank you. You seem to have grasped my point very well!  ;-)

    Seriously, though, I think there is a difference between _noticing_ what 
    another person looks like, and looking them over so thoroughly, from their 
    "sort of stringy" hair right down to their "butt ugly black low cut shoes" 
    that you are able to estimate the price of what they are wearing and
    carrying! I just can't help wondering whether the appearance of any males 
    at the meeting would have been "noticed" in such detail, or judged so
    harshly if it was noticed.
    
    June.

    P.S. To answer the question in the basenote, I would like men to be free
         to wear makeup if they want to, and women to be free _not_ to wear 
         it if they don't want to!

    re.107
    Nope, never had a problem with zits I think keeping my skin clean
    helped avoid ever having to deal with them.
    
    -j

    I wear my zits proudly.  They're a sign of my indomitable youthful
    idealism.
    
    Ray

    Ray, I gotta tell ya, I really like that personal name.  :`)

    RE: .111  Mike Z.
    
    Mike, I gotta tell *you* (w.r.t. your personal name)...
    
    	I didn't think I'd live long enough to see you and I on the
    	same side during a U.S. Presidential election.
    

    Pretty weird, eh?

    Presidential election?  Geez, and I was going to ask what happened to
    the real Bruce Springsteen.

    re .114, the real Boss is on tour this summer, and I'm sure his
    performances will be much more satisfactory than that of whoever gets
    elected president! :-)
    
    re .110, that's how I feel about zits, too, Ray!  I can't *really* be
    middle-aged if my face still breaks out on occasion.
    
    re .109, some people get acne regardless of how clean they keep their
    faces, so don't be so smug.  If you never had zits, it's not because
    you washed your face, it's because you were *lucky*.
    
    Lorna
    

    I didn't read smugness into .109. More a simple matter of fact
    statement that keeping skin clean _might_ have contributed to his lack of
    zits
    
    c.f.
    <I think keeping my skin clean helped avoid ever having to deal with them.>
      ^^^^^			  ^^^^^^
        
    my emphasis
    
    
    				herb