Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Funny you mentioned that. I went to a local PWP dance last saturday
    night. PWP stands for Parents Without Partners. And I was suprised!
    Big time! I was asked to dance, not once, not twice, three times!! I
    was shocked! I asked after that a few who said no. But It wasn't even
    15 min into the game and I was asked. I guess there are some women who
    clearly put their politics to work and not just a hollow jesture.
    
    

    Ability to recognize mutual interest is probably going to remain a
    skill that each one of us must learn for ourselves (if we ever _do_
    learn it). The process of expressing that interest, however, shouldn't
    cause as many hurt feelings as it seems to...
    
    What can be done to help - first, an expression of interest should be
    done in a non-threatening, not-overly-personal manner. (This leaves out
    things like X and his eight closest friends surrounding a woman on the
    sidewalk and telling her which parts of her body they particulary
    admire; it also leaves out anyone's walking up to a stranger and
    grabbing them while saying, "My God, I'd like to <***> you!") 
    
    Next, I'd like to see everybody learn to be more comfortable about
    giving _and_ receiving rejection. People get into so much trouble from
    either trying to be too nice or from taking umbrage unnecessarily...
    When somebody offers you a second helping of dessert, you don't
    (usually) have to think twice about saying "No, thanks" if you don't
    want any; it should be the same for an offer of dinner, or the next
    dance, or a hot and heavy weekend in Bermuda. [Side note: The
    rejections should also be non-threatening and impersonal, at least the
    first ones. "No, thank you" is fine; derisive laughter is not.]
    
    Don't know where the best place to try and teach all this would be. If
    we want to cover the most ground, maybe we should write to the makers
    of "Beverly Hills <zipcode>"... ;-)
    
    -b

    Oh. Forgot to say that I have not been out on the dance floor in some
    10+years.

    re .1, I think that women who frequent PWP dances become accustomed to
    asking men to dance after awhile.  Also, I think that there is a
    difference between having the courage to ask a man to dance at a PWP
    dance, and the courage to simply ask an acquaintance, from work, or
    notes, or whatever, for a date.  At least at the dance, the people
    attending have already put themselves in a social situation.  In other
    words, nobody who willingly attends a dance, should be too put out if
    they get asked to dance, whereas, a person might be put-off if a
    co-worker or someone they met somewhere called them up, out of the
    blue, and asked them for a date.
    
    Also, I don't think it's fair to suggest that just because a woman
    might not have enough self-confidence to ask a certain man for a date,
    means that she's not practicing her politics.  I don't think it's fair
    to label a deficit of self-confidence as not putting their politics to
    work.  
    
    I grew up in the '50's and '60's when girls were told that we weren't
    supposed to call boys on the phone or ask men out, or even to dance. 
    So, women my age grow-up while certain social rules are being practiced
    and we never get used to rejection.  Then we may spend a number of
    years married, then get divorced and suddenly find ourselves in a world
    where wer're also expected to take the initiative in dates and sex,
    only *we* never had a chance to get used to it - how to ask or how to
    take rejection.  Plus, my experience has been that some men can be very
    nasty in the way they reject women they're not interested in.  When men
    say they wish more women would take the initiative, they're only
    thinking about the women they consider desirable.  They don't seem to
    realize that some women they aren't interested in may decide to take
    the initiative, and that if they're too mean about the rejection, it
    will make these women reluctant to be so forward again.
    
    Lorna
    

    .4
    >Also, I don't think it's fair to suggest that just because a woman
    >might not have enough self-confidence to ask a certain man
    
    Geeze. Whip me with your keyboard. Smash me with your VT. Hot dam! Do
    I enjoy getting PC slammed because of this. Take a break. There are
    many men who have the same problem. And they get up the courage, walk
    across the emotional no-mans land. And get zapped in the heart with the
    NO word. Sounds sexist to me not to make that remark. Rejection is a
    way of life. Not just for wimmin either.

    George,
    
    I recently read an article on dating in the 90s in one of those
    women's magazines. One thing that was stressed was that men really
    didn't like women to ask them out and that women shouldn't do so
    at least for a first date. 
    
    So women are still getting very mixed messages in this department.
    
    Bonnie

>    I recently read an article on dating in the 90s in one of those
>    women's magazines. One thing that was stressed was that men really
>    didn't like women to ask them out and that women shouldn't do so
>    at least for a first date. 

 Did a man or a woman write the article? :-)

    Bonnie,
    
    	Never believe all that you read. Esp when its written for women by
    women. Or men for men. I am confused too. I think that makes it very
    difficult for me to understand the signals when I read one set that
    says go. And the other that says stop.
    
    Geo

   It takes a lot of energy for me to get up the nerve to ask a woman
for a date, especially in the work environment  It can be a very nerve
racking experience, trying to get a date.  But occasionally if someone
really appeals to me, and I also get some good positive feedback, and
the situation is right, I'll at least get up the nerve to ask her to join
me for a cup of coffee in the cafeteria.  One can really tell if there's
any hope at all after that point.  We all get rejected, in one way or
another.  But that's part of life.   But, if you don't at least try, you'll
never know.  What's worse, being alone or being rejected.  But, what a great
feeling when the answer is YES.  It makes it all worth the effort!

 Carl 

    

    re .6, you want me to whip you?
    
    You sound angry.  Gee, I'm sorry I said how I really feel only to get
    slammed in Mennotes like the other sensitive guys.
    
    The point I was trying to make is that if I were a guy my age I would
    have gotten practice at asking and rejecting ever since I was a
    teenager.  It's kind of tough to start taking the initiative at the age
    of 42, after growing up with different rules.  At least you men were
    always expected to be the ones to ask.
    
    I don't see why you have to be so nasty, George, when I just come in
    here and say how I feel.  
    
    Lorna
    

    In my humble opinion, it takes a great deal of courage, confidence, and
    self-respect to ask anyone out at anytime because regardless of what
    the answer is it tends to be nerve racking.  Either you get first date
    jitters or rejections blues, unless you've finally come to the point
    where you figure their loss.
    
    I've taken the initiative to make the first phone call or send a card
    or ask someone out and actually be thanked for it, or told that they
    admire me for having the confidence enough to do so. Makes it easier
    the next time.
    
    Something that has helped me a great deal in taking initative and
    getting to know someone is doing things with them in a group
    atmosphere.  It allows you to see the *real* person (it's kind of
    difficult to lie or make yourself out to be something you aren't in
    front of mutual friends).  Once there is some sort of feedback...he
    sits nexts to me each time we go out, we talk more to each other more
    than others, etc., then depending on the circumstances I may make some
    sort of initative.
    
    I think overall considering the other person as a person with feelings
    when approached and being approached is the key.  That means that just
    as we want the ability to be able to say no, we should give them the
    same option.
    
    Shilah
    
    

    re .13, but, didn't it ever occur to you that if the men you socialize
    with, in these group setting, were interested in going out with you
    they would have already asked, given that traditionally men have always
    been the ones expected to ask.  What I'm trying to say, I guess, is
    that despite the fact that it may take a lot of courage for either a
    man or a woman to ask someone on a date, I truly believe that when men
    are really interested in going out with a particular woman that they
    somehow get up the courage to ask.  Therefore, if I've known a guy for
    awhile and he's never asked me out, I just assume that if he had any
    interest he would have before now, so why should I make a fool of
    myself by asking out an obviously uninterested person.  
    
    Traditionally men have been the ones expected to ask women out, and
    they may not think it's fair, and they may complain about it, but I
    think when they meet someone who really appeals to them, most of them
    get up the courage to ask her out.
    
    As far as giving someone the right to say no, I think everyone already
    has the right to say no.  That goes without question, but just because
    they have the right to say no doesn't mean it won't hurt.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    The big thing I have against "asking someone out" (thank God I don't
    have to do that anymore) is that if you ask someone out, and they
    wanted you to ask, then GREAT.  If you ask someone out and they
    aren't really interested, then they tend to treat you like scum.
    After a few of these rejections, then it becomes difficult to not
    start wondering "what's wrong with me" when the "asker's" intentions
    and feelings were the same in both cases. ( This same scenario also
    applies to several other situations ).
    
    The "get to know someone first" approach can also have some serious
    drawbacks.  I have had more than one friendship with a woman ruined
    because I asked her out and she wasn't interested.  May have been
    my perception ( long and serious self analysis of the situation,
    however, still indicates that it wasn't just a perception ) but
    it seemed like I suddenly became some sort of threat to them.  I
    spent my high school years setting beside one particular "knockout"
    in band class that I would have given my eye teeth (and a few other 
    body parts) to have dated, but I was terrified of the consequences 
    if she said "no".  There was no escaping being in proximity to her
    after that without some serious impact on a lot of other things
    I cared about at the time, and my experience with asking other girls
    in that (small town) school had been rather traumatic to put it
    nicely.  I found out later that she probably would have gone out 
    with me, but I just couldn't take the risk.
    
    During my honky-tonkin days, after my divorce, at first I was
    terrified of asking and being rejected.  I blamed it on a lack
    of being able to dance, so I concentrated on learning how to dance
    rather than on "shopping" and became a fairly decent ( at least
    that's what I'm told ;^) ), but I still had a lot of problem with
    the rejection.  I started studying human relationships ( at least
    those of the bar crowd) and came up with some pretty interesting
    revelations about what women *say* they want and what really
    "flips their switch".  When that happened I stopped putting
    women on pedestals and started looking for what was really going
    on.  What I found was not all that pretty.  I developed a 
    probably somewhat arrogant attitude that "I *am* a decent person
    with a lot to offer a relationship, and if they are too dumb
    or psychotic to recognize that, then that is indeed *their* problem".
    I developed a rule that if I asked twice and was turned down twice
    then I wouldn't be back.  It was funny to watch them come out of 
    the woodwork after I graduated from college and got a job with Dec,
    but by then I'd already found a "keeper" and been caught 8^).
    Together for 10+ years now.

    fred();
    

    .9 and .10
    
    It was written by a man for women. Further he had interviewed a number
    of men and they all said the same thing.

.15 is quite right about the "get to know them approach", but left out one
important fact - eventually you tire of causing your friends to always act as
if they have their guard up around you and you decide that it more important to
have friends that feel comfortable around you.

re .16 (the survey)
Was the sample statistically valid, or just random?

Rich

    Rich
    
    It was just one of those articles, not a survey. But would tend to
    reinforce women's nervousness about asking a man out.
    
    Let me give you a personal example. Recently I replied to an entry
    in singles. I'm not looking to date right now, as I'm in a relationship
    and my divorce is not yet final. However, there was an entry by a
    man my age in the file and I sent him a brief note. I got no reply
    back. Now granted that may not be considered a big deal by most men
    or most women, but it defitely discouraged me from wanting to do so
    again, and a lot of it was based on the old 'women don't *do* that
    taboos of my youth.
    
    Bonnie

    >I truly believe that when men are really interested in going out with 
    >a particular woman that they somehow get up the courage to ask.  
    >Therefore, if I've known a guy for awhile and he's never asked me out, 
    >I just assume that if he had any interest he would have before now, so 
    >why should I make a fool of myself by asking out an obviously uninterested 
    >person.
    
    I don't think you can ever safely assume that.  Some very good men are
    terrible cowards when it comes to women.  I had a friend in college who
    was quite handsome, but didn't believe it.  He never had dates.  There
    was an equally attractive and intelligent woman who hung out with us.
    We'd tell him she was interested in him and that he should ask her out,
    but he never would.  After about a year of this, one night, around
    midnight, she knocked on his door and said "can I spend the night with
    you?"  They've been married for over twenty years and have a lovely
    family.  I myself was the same way.  People would tell me such-and-so
    was interested in me, but I'd never believe them either.  Then there
    was the woman who invited me to her house to study for a Russian test.
    After studying for awhile she went and changed into her night-gown.
    I had the hots for her too, but I just figured that meant that she was
    trying to get rid of me.  I know better now, but now it's too late :^)
    
    					- Vick
    

    I don't see how there can be any sensible reason for sending him
    another note until he responds.
    I see that as a personal example of appropriate initiation and
    appropriate lack of follow up on your part.

    Herb
    
    I had *no* intention of sending that particular person another note,
    but I also have very little interest in sending any other person
    a note either. I don't particularly like feeling foolish,
    
    Bonnie

    I hope you understood my reply as an attempt at supportiveness.
    (not preachiness!)

    yes, I did, thankyou. 

    re: .14
    
    �re .13, but, didn't it ever occur to you that if the men you socialize
    �with, in these group setting, were interested in going out with you
    �they would have already asked, given that traditionally men have always
    
    But, of course, it occurred to me.  And men have asked before.  The
    point I was trying to get across is that I don't always wait nor expect
    the man to make the first move.
    
    �man or a woman to ask someone on a date, I truly believe that when men
    �are really interested in going out with a particular woman that they
    �somehow get up the courage to ask.  Therefore, if I've known a guy for
    
    True they do.  Just like I do.
    
    �awhile and he's never asked me out, I just assume that if he had any
    �interest he would have before now, so why should I make a fool of
    �myself by asking out an obviously uninterested person.  
    
    And as I mentioned in my note, if I have only know this guy a little
    while, say we have seen each other at a party or group outting two or
    three times, I don't consider that knowing him 'awhile' and based on
    the feedback I may either give more feedback that I'd be interested in
    getting to know him better or give an opening for getting together
    again...'we'll have to discuss this over dinner sometime'.
    
    �Traditionally men have been the ones expected to ask women out, and
    �they may not think it's fair, and they may complain about it, but I
    �think when they meet someone who really appeals to them, most of them
    �get up the courage to ask her out.
    
    So whoever said traditions weren't meant to be broken?
    
    Shilah

    	I dunno about the magazine article.  I _do_ know that this man
    would be extremely flattered if a woman took the initiative to ask him
    out, since he's not too good at picking up on subtle hints.  A woman
    trying to give me a hint should probably do it with a 2 x 4.
    
    larry

    >    I recently read an article on dating in the 90s in one of those
    >    women's magazines. One thing that was stressed was that men really
    >    didn't like women to ask them out and that women shouldn't do so
    >    at least for a first date.
    
    Guess I am (well was ;->) in the minority then.  I was just a little
    to shy to ask many women out.  I did, fortunately, get asked out
    on occasion.
    
    Hamp

    
    
     > Whoever said traditions weren't meant to be broken?
    
     Shilah,
    
        I like that...
    
         Carl
    
       P.S. Please excuse if I babble too much.
    
    
    

    re: .29
    
    Thanks.
    
    :-)

    re .19
    
    Unfortunately SINGLES is a poor place to meet people.  Most people
    there are chasing after dreams, or posturing for those that are.  The
    few honest souls get lost amongst the rest.  Ads from women under 35
    generally get 80 responses, men are lucky if they get 8.  Most people
    (of either gender) don't answer the replies that they aren't interested
    because they don't want to lose the little bit of anonymity that the
    notes file gives them.
    
    A few months ago I attempted to start a dicussion on what is romance. 
    There were a few good contributions, but after that it turned to men
    (attempting to) posture for women before the discussion died out.
    
    Finding a mate will probably continue to get more difficult as people
    see their options broaden.  There will probably be greater numbers of
    people that spend their life searching for ideals having forgotten that
    everything in life involves making compromises.
    
    Though computer networks offer an easy way to communicate, they don't
    solve the problem of how to meet that attractive person that you had
    brief conversation with while waiting for something and while you
    occaisionally see each other in passing nothing more than "hello" is
    exchanged between the two of you because neither got the other's name. 
    There are benefits of not finding out a person's name right away - you
    take some time to get to know them a bit without letting any preconceived
    ideas of what you read on the network from interfering.
    
    Rich

    .12
    Lorna,
    
    	Nope! Not into whips. Just lifting me weights!:) Enough pain there.
    Gotta love it. But, you are agian assuming that everything is equal
    agian. When, to the most casusal observer, it aint so. And...... after
    being out of the tribal ritial of mating/dating for 10+ years, there
    is much one does not assume. Right! We all have been bopped on top of
    our heads about wimmin and such in the 90's. Got to face it in person
    when your out in the mating zone. Nasty? Me? I think you should
    re-read some of your nasty grams. Not what many would call user
    friendly messages. Right.
    

    	RE .32....please,not another near slanging match:-(
    
    Re some previous....I too would appear to be in the minority & find it
    very flattering to be asked out since I am also not one for subtle
    hints & need clearer signals to take the bait..
    
    Kevin

    re .32, well, I don't think I'm nasty, but you do.  You don't think
    you're nasty, but I did in one instance.  There you have it!
    
    I think each of us is just so different from each other that neither of
    us has any idea of where the other is coming from.  I have an idea that
    I wouldn't recognize the world if I could view it from your eyes, and
    that you wouldn't recognize it if you could view it from mine.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .32, it strikes me that, if you think I've written nasty grams, in
    this conference, when *I* think I've just been stating my opinions like
    everybody else, that maybe anytime a woman dares to state an opinion
    that disagrees with a man, that maybe you think it's nasty.  Maybe you
    just think it's nasty for a woman to disagree with a man.  Guess what,
    George?  Tough.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I have to agree with you. Very often when I see women just disagreeing
    with men here, their words are labelled 'nasty grams' or 'men
    bashing'.... It appears to me, that unless women make nice and defer
    to men, then some men will react negatively to them, in ways they
    wouldn't to another man.
    
    but that is, of course, only my humble opinion..
    
    um, maybe, that is I think, as it were...
    
    Bonnie

    re Bonnie, thanks.  (Now, for god's sake don't get too strident!) ;-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re Lorna,
    
    Yes Mam!

    Lorna,
    	
    	I dont give a rats ass about what you write or dont write. If you
    and Bonnie want to whip out your redoric and start hitting us on the
    top of our heads agian. Building your cross's. Fine. Want to have a
    decient descussion about personal experiences. Fine. Want to tell me
    off. Go ahead. Make my day. Life is never fair for men either. But its
    your who are not reading these notes. That your option. I do think that
    your getting off the original topic with this though. 
    
    Have a swell day.

    re .39, I can assure you that I'm not interested in making your day.
    
    I can tell you're very angry and that you just don't understand where
    I'm coming from.  I'm sorry.  I'll leave you alone.
    
    Bonnie, you didn't whip out your redoric again, did you?
    
    
    Lorna
    
    

    >you just don't understand where I'm coming from.
    
    I really don't care where you came from. Your welcome here just as much
    as hopefully am. I am not as angry as you wish to make this discussion.
    I think that you took a cheap shot at what was an honest reply. And
    good, you win. You successfully got a rise out of me. So, lets
    be friends, stop with this game play. And continue on. 
    
    

    My experience has been that it isn't just women who get accused of
    delivering nasty-grams just because they disagree with someone in this
    conference.  Nor is it just on matters relating to women.  I'm not
    convinced it's a sexist thing, maybe more a male ego thing having to
    do, no doubt, with the way males use communication to establish
    hierarchy.
    					- Vick
    
    P.S.  I think we should refrain from pointing out or poking fun at
    someone else's spelling errors.  It is obvious to anyone that George 
    does not want to take the time to polish his replies, nor do I think
    he should feel required to.  I've never had any trouble understanding
    what he's saying.  I have a brilliant friend who had one of the brain
    fevers as a child, suffering selective brain damage which made his
    spelling abysmal.  But he can run circles around me in any debate and
    has a memory for facts and quotations that I would kill for.  So I
    never look at spelling as an indicator of intelligence, or even
    education.

  RE. .2 -b

  I haven't gotten to the rest of this string yet, but just *had* to stop and
  reply to your note -b. Yes, yes, and a *big* yes. I absolutely *love* your
  examples too [chuckle].

  wanna write some'ore, but gotta read the rest of this first, it might have
  some answers to some questions I have (-:

  �ks, m�chelle �ī

    re .41, but, George, I am *not* playing a game.  I am just giving
    honest answers, too.  I'm not angry (in general) and I wasn't out toget
    a rise out of you.  I was just writing my thoughts in the file, that's
    all.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .41, also, I *do* care where you're coming from, when you give your
    points of view.  I'm interested in trying to understand everyone's
    point of view.  
    
    I think it's very mean for you to make statements such as "I don't care
    where you came from."  Thanks a lot.  I'm glad you take such an
    interest in other noters.
    
    Lorna
    

    - Vick
    
    If you were referring to Lorna's use of the word 'redoric' - I took
    it as a silly, or a tease, not a put down on anyone.
    
    Bonnie

  (sigh)...

  Okay, I managed to finish reading the replies to this string.

  WRT men asking womyn out, etc....

  I have spent a good part of my life working with men.  And, this is going to
  porbably sound *really* generalistic,  buuutttt... one thing I have observed
  is that 'most' men rarely realize  it when womyn stop and take notice.  It's
  almost like they're oblivious or something like that. Given this generaliza-
  tion,  it wouldn't surprise me one  bit if there  was some  guy who I'd been
  hanging out with, say for years, who really wanted to date but was afraid to
  ask.  Why? Cause,  if he doesn't think I'm interested, then he just might be
  too afraid to ask. I've missed out on some pretty good shots at possible re-
  lationships because of this...

  ME:  'You know, I've always thought you were really attractive...'

  HIM: "Yeah? Well I did too. Funny, I would've asked you out, but..."

  ME:  'Yeah? Well me too...'

  HIM: "(sigh) Too bad I'm married now..."

  [giggle]

  Well, it's too late for those now. One thing for sure. I figure if I wait
  around til the guy I'm interested in gets up the courage to ask me out, I
  could be waiting around forever.  It's not that I'm gorgeous ('; an stuff.
  It's just that most of the men I tend to be attracted to are usually very
  soft spoken and somewhat shy (plus...i tend to be just a tad bit unconven-
  tional). Of course, here-in lies my delima. Usually if the guy's shy, I'm
  afraid that if I ask him out, then he'd be  'put off' by my  'forwardness'
  (and/or unconventionality). Oh well...Go figure...I know I haven't yet (';

  BTW, I agree that it's quite nerve-wracking asking someone out (be it a man
  or a womyn who is doing the asking). Even with an Ego of Steel a 'NO' deli-
  vered in a 'nasty' way can be quite a blow.

  just my 2�
  �ks, m�chelle �ī

    I have no idea how to tell when a woman is attracted to me.  I usually
    end up going by what I feel as opposed to what my chances are when it
    comes to women.  Rejection gets easier to handle but those backhands
    and clawmarks are murder.
    
    So clue me in - how do you tell when a woman is attracted to you? 

    I hope Jody's right and the party on the 29th helps vent some
    of this pressure...

    re:.48

    For me, they usually say something like "you're not as big a jerk
    as I imagined from reading your notes."  A compliment, I presume. ;^)

Yeah, Mike, but that only works for folks who get to surprise people by 
not being as obnoxious in person as in notes! ;-)

DougO

>    So clue me in - how do you tell when a woman is attracted to you? 
    
    Well, Kris, you've certainly come to the right place. MENNOTES is
    _rife_ with experience and sensitivity.
    
    I tend to go by physical indicators -- being lunged at with no visible
    weapons in hand, being smothered in kisses, long deep dips while
    dancing, or quietly being leaned against with head tilted upwards and
    eyes half-closed and mouth half-open (pause to listen for a snore).
    
    Verbal cues might include "I think loud-mouthed skinny guys with big
    noses are REALLY SEXY" (if she goes on to say ", don't you?" rethink
    the relationship), "You don't have to sleep on the floor, you know",
    and "Just what the hell is wrong with you, anyway?"
    
    You might also want to bone up on Thurber and White's research into
    Recessive Knee Syndrome in their monograph "Is Sex Necessary?"
    
    Dr. Ray

    Besides that I mean.

re: the last few

	I'm also curious as to what behavior implies 
	interest.  Usually the signals are subtle- there is
	something I refer to as 'acculturation' where similar
	gestures, and postures are displayed between two 
	folks while in conversation.  This is 'body
	language' sort of stuff.
	
	Then again, I get confused real easy.  I asked out a woman
	I had met on an AMC weekend, because of all the 'clues' I
	thought I'd seen and heard, and she rearranged some other
	plans so she could make it on the evening I had available.
	So, I thought this was really positive.  Then, during the
	course of the date, I saw an equivalent number of 'not 
	interested' clues.  So, I guess I simply don't get it (yet).

	Well...maybe the ongoing conversation in this string between
	Lorna and George shows they're actually interested in each
	other?..shouting "Ask me out!!"......NOT!  8^)

	Mark

	

>    Besides that I mean.
    
    Tough audience. 
    
    Past those hints (garnered from the Ann Landers book "When Petting Goes
    Too Far"), I don't think you could do better than your "proceed until
    backhanded" approach.
    
    Herr Doktor Professor Davis

    Well, there must be some cue I pick up on, because there I was,
    watching the worst movie I've seen in 6 months, Bugsy, and I turn
    to my date and say "she's really turned on by that" and my date
    says "no, she's completely disgusted by that - look at her face."

    Within 10 seconds, Bening is all over Beatty, most definitely
    turned on.

    So I guess what I'm saying is, if you look at someone and she looks
    either disgusted or terribly excited, she might just be attracted
    to you.

    There's also the possibility that Bening just wasn't doing a very good
    job of masking her true feelings during the scene...
    
    But it's nice thinking of all the people who might've actually been
    attracted to me.
    
    Ray

>    So I guess what I'm saying is, if you look at someone and she looks
>    either disgusted or terribly excited, she might just be attracted
>    to you.
    
    This was my strategy when I was nine and I tried to impress June P. by
    turning my eye lids inside-out.  She married someone else.
    

    
    I love this string.  
    
    I am speaking mostly theoretically here, because my track record at 
    deciphering whether a woman is interested in me is not great (as I
    demonstrated above).  But it seems to me that a number of the guys
    complaining in this string, seem to want it established in the head of
    the woman up front, ahead of time, and once and for all, that she is
    or isn't interested.  Then, presumably, he can ask her out, the romance
    will proceed on schedule, marriage, no doubt, will follow, and then
    there's something about sunsets and romantic music fading off into
    infinity.  Whereas I don't see where a woman should be required to
    be very interested at all before accepting a date.  I thought that
    dating itself was the methodology via which men and women could come
    to discover whether or not there was much mutual interest, attraction,
    compatability, whatever.  Why feel betrayed just because, after going
    on a date with you, a woman seems less interested than she did when
    she accepted the date?
    						- Vick

re .59

No, you've got it wrong.  We aren't looking for a fast, painless track to the
final goal.  What we're commenting on is the fact that when a woman is interested
in a man that she tends to show it in non-obvious ways and that we can't be
expected to be mind readers.

Rich

re: .59 GOOEY::BENNISON

Hi Vic-

	I'm a little perplexed by your opinions, and want to make some
	sense of them from my perspective.


	I agree that its nice to establish up front whether or not a 
	woman is interested [in going out on a date].

	I don't follow about the 'romance will proceed on schedule, 
	marriage, no doubt, will follow.' part.  Personally, I date
	in order to make friends and to socialize.  I don't particularly
	ask someone out because I want to marry them- rather I ask
	a person out to have dinner, see a movie, hike, or ski.

	In the example I posted earlier in this string, might it help
	if I pointed out that this woman in particular stated in no
	uncertain terms that she was a very direct sort of person, and
	addressed issues head on rather than through innuendo and
	suggestion.

	So, I don't feel betrayed, as you suggest, rather simply confused.

	Maybe it doesn't get any better than this?  Any other points of
	view available from other noters?

Mark

    .44
    
    Lorna,
    
    	I too have been trying to give an honest answer to it all. But
    when you make some comment that one group of people have it tuff. Look
    agian. There are many more. And that was my reply. Even though you and
    Bonnie think there is some humor in making comments of being sweet and
    nice. I feel that is like me saying to you nasty things like go bake a
    cake. And I don't say naughty things like that to you or Bonnie. Gee,
    I am not playing games either. But somehow I see you other wise. But
    I am more than willing to kill off this conversation for more
    constructive logic than this sniping/bantering. You both have given allot
    to the notes and I dont want to duke out on the keyboard with you or
    Bonnie.
    
    With much respect
    George

  [giggle] (again (-: )

  Well, lemme see...

  What you've all said so far makes perfect sense (to me that is). I know that
  I tend to be a somewhat reticent conversationalist if I'm interested in a
  guy (you know the old, "it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought
  a fool" syndrome). Plus, most people whom I've met through notes conferences,
  mail, etc, have been totally surprised, or as one guy put it, "I thought you
  would be *so* different, you know, shy, quiet, this nice, sweet little
  thing..." Oh well... My noting style is just one facet of who I am.

  Anyway, all that aside, one possible approach is to ask someone out, even if,
  to you, they don't appear to be 'all that interested'. I dunno. For me, if
  I'm not interested in someone, I try and drop 'subtle' hints like, "I'm not
  available for dating until after the turn of the century [wink]". Or, if I
  talk about some failed relationship, or make some (joking) comment about
  joining a nunery, then you can probably bet that I'm not interested. But
  really, if someone does ask me out, and I'm *really* not interested in going
  out with them, then I try and be honest without being a real jerk.

  On the other hand, if I am interested (sheesh, what are my cues...), I dunno,
  some eye contact. I may sit in and listen to a conversation, and, if it's
  something that I can join in on, then I'll join in. I'd probably tell this
  person a little bit more about me than I would when just making small talk. I
  may casually say, "we oughta get together for coffee some time", or something
  like that. I'd probably ask this person more about them, like, "So, do you
  have any children?", "What kind of work do you do?", etc. All in all, this
  can sound like small talk, yet I rarely ask and/or reveal anything about my
  personal life to anyone whom I'm not interested in.

  Then, of course, there's that middle ground stuff, ya know. Like maybe I just
  haven't given it much thought. My response to that is, "Ask me".

  I guess it's kinda like the old saying, "Ya never know 'til ya ask"...

  �ks, m�chelle �ī

    Re .61: I'm a bit puzzled that you find it confusing that a woman would
    give "I'm interested" signals before a date and "I'm not interested"
    signals during the date. I don't find it confusing when men do it to me
    (annoying, frustrating, disappointing, maybe even insulting, but not
    confusing!); it's just that whatever sparked the initial interest
    apparently wasn't supported by further acquaintance. Part amicably, and
    look for someone else. (It's so easy to give advice when one is not
    currently involved in such a situation!)
    
    -b

    
    	well, if style is anything to go by....
    	i have a great example of that.
    
    	awhile ago Z telephoned me to ask if i'd be in my office 
    	til 5:00, i responded affirmatively....he arrived we met...
    	and i've been enamoured ever since....
    
    	now he's tied up and i'm celibate....
    
    	moral of the little story...
    	
    	the direct approach works best.
    	and too much time spoils the broth (so to speak)
    
    	::RDAVIS....are you taking notes? ;-)

    re:.59

    Well, if women would do what us guys do, you know, bark and howl
    when someone really cute walks by, then guys would know when to
    turn around and start making smalltalk.

    That's the reason we do it - courtesy.

	<----------Mikey

	 We don't bark and howl because it's not ladylike  :-)

	 I prefer to give their butt a little pinch or brush up
	 against them.    

re: .64 DTIF::RUST

Hi -b

	Well, I came up with about the same explanation as you did.
	We did, in fact part amicably- about the only 'argument' we
	had all evening was who paid for what- which is pretty standard.
	And yes...I keep on looking.  I don't think I could get annoyed
	or insulted or anything from a single date situation- just confused.

Mark
	
	

    
    	or there's the subtle approach of notifying a nice young man
    	that he's dropped something on the floor...
    
    	sometimes the subtleties work best.

>    	now he's tied up and i'm celibate....
    
    Now THERE's a success story for ya...
    
>    	::RDAVIS....are you taking notes? ;-)
    
    Actually, I'm perfectly satisfied with the results of the unambitious
    techniques I outlined to Kris.  I don't heal as quickly as he does, I
    guess.
    
    Ray

      The way I see it, one has to look at the situation in the proper state of
      mind.  First of all, I will never know whether a woman is just being
      friendly but not interested or friendly and very interested.  People
      react in different ways, a smile and hello from an totally outgoing
      extroverted self-confident person could have a totally different meaning
      compared to the same greeting from an shy insecure introverted person.
      This is a matter of personality.  Once I finally get the nerve to ask
      a woman for a date, it is strictly to get to know her better, leading to
      either a brief acquaintance, a friendship or a possible relationship.
      The best piece of advise I can give to anyone is be yourself, and don't
      push a relationship before it's even begun!
    
                     Just my honest opinion
    
    
                                Carl 
       
                     
    
       Carl   

    
    	<Slowhand>
    
    	yup, that just about sums it up, doughnut, ::RDAVIS?

>    	yup, that just about sums it up, doughnut, ::RDAVIS?

    Well now, I've been known to twitch a little.
    
>                              -< say no more.... >-

    Oops, sorry, missed the title...
    
    Ray

        On 'interested' vs 'not interested' clues...

        I have the same issues about knowing when a woman is interested in
        me. The only 'clue' that I've ever really counted on is laughter. This
        is when asking a woman out with whom you've got some contact. If in
        the process a everyday conversation, we can get to laughing about 
        life,work, etc. then I generally feel that there's some ground for
        going out and at least having some good conversation and fun. I feel
        more comfortable asking someone with whom I've shared a good laugh.

        We've all become so sensitive to clues that I think sometimes we're
        giving up at the first sign of ambivalent feelings. The woman I'm 
        dating steadily now is very different from women I usually date. She's
        older, more sophisticated, etc. but applying the rule above I asked 
        her out and she said 'OK' and we've had some good times together. There
        are days though, when I can tell that her needs that are getting met
        by the relationship are outweighed by those that aren't being met or
        one need that isn't being met has become really important. I know this
        now because I started getting those 'not interested' clues sometimes but
        'interested' other times and I finally had to ask her. That was probably
        the best thing I've done. She told me the things she really liked about
        me, the things that gave her that "This is a big mistake..." feeling.
        It was good to hear that stuff; honestly and with no bull.

        The other part of the 'interested' vs 'not interested' game is 
        vulnerability. You're alot less vulnerable to getting hurt asking
        someone out when you know they're more interested in you or even
        more infatuated than you. You're more in control. I'm totally head 
        over heels in love with this woman I'm dating and she's slowly getting 
        there as she gets to know me but waiting for her to get there is 
        nervewracking. At least for me.  I feel totally out of control; all I 
        can do is let it happen. Being a "cause and effect", "just tell me the 
        rules", "leave me alone with the manual for a while" kinda guy, this 
        is really hard and it's causing a certain low grade anxiety which I can
        attribute to that reversal of roles: I've always dated women who've let
        me know they were really interested. I didn't have to risk too much.
        In this situation, I feel like I'm risking alot.
    
        I think I noted in here once, that sending flowers is one thing I do if
        I'm unsure about whether a relationship is going anywhere or not. I sent
        flowers to the woman above just before she was embarking on a long 
        business trip to wish her well and let her know I'd be thinking of her. 
        She responded with a card, "Thank you for the lovely flowers, 
        Cordially .....". Cordially???? I figured things were going downhill
        but she came back and asked me out a couple times and we had alot
        of fun. It's been really nice since then so we'll see what happens.
        Keep communication lines open...
        
        Ray Hayes
                

re: .66

>    Well, if women would do what us guys do, you know, bark and howl
>    when someone really cute walks by, then guys would know when to
>    turn around and start making smalltalk.
    
    
    Usually I bite my finger or palm and whimper.... but if you've got yer
    eyes open, it's hard to miss.
    
    -Jody

    Jody,
    
    	But do you bark or howl or whistle?:^)

    
    	think it'll work for me, ::RAUH???

    .77 Beats me! Give it a try!:_) I know that primal screaming will give
    you lots of power when your lifting in some cases. I got a real cute
    story about it in the Flex files. But I would think that it would be
    about as useful today as whistling or barking or bay-ing at someone.
    Signals? Outside of the body languages of some nice looking woman
    looking into my eyes is about how someone gets my attention. Wink!
    Wink! Nudge! Nudge! :)

    
    			<STARE>

    
    
                         |||   |||
    			<S T A R E>
                           .   .
                             ^
                             O
    
    
     
    

    George:
    
    My barber trims my eyebrows, no extra charge.

    I think me eyebrows are a taken back by the person who is staring me
    in the eyes!:)

>    	awhile ago Z telephoned me to ask if i'd be in my office 
>    	til 5:00, i responded affirmatively....he arrived we met...
>    	and i've been enamoured ever since....
    
    See, what did I tell you, Z?  It has to be genetic. 

    Whenever a woman is staring at me I assume that my hair is standing up.

    When my ex use to stare at me in court. My fur on the back of my neck
    would stand up. But thats not that same feeling....:)

    
    	mebbe your fly was down.....
    
    	these things happen, you know, ::RAUH.

    .86
    
    Couldn't happen. Walking out of the Superior court in Manchester N.H.
    I was aproached by a street walker. She was gorgous, and was ready. I
    was so depressed I doubt that IT was 100 mile close by. I think that
    IT took a vacation and certainly no one was home.:)

    
    	ah well.... unfortunately it was a totally opposite situation
    	when *i* walked out of manchester superior court....
    
    	there was a distinct smile on my face.

  	so what positive signs would a man like a woman to make
	if she is interested in him?  


	kits

    Say  "Hey, I'm interested in getting to know you better.  Wanna
    go out sometime?"
    
    Hamp

    re .90, I'd like to hear a more subtle suggestion.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	....a subtle suggestion would be to get him to retrieve a
    	fallen item on the floor....
    	if the back side is a knockout....well....need i say more.
    
    	already the interest is established.
    
    	to make it a blatant point....pat the bending over figure....
    	and comment on it as being a sight for sore ideas.

repl .91

Subtleties can be missed.  The most accurate way is to do as suggested in .90

Rich

    
     reply to .89
    
     If she was consistant in communication.   For instance, if she was always
    approaching me and causing some sort of interaction. A piercing eye
    opening glance, or an appealing gesture. 
    
                     Carl 
    
         
    

    >Subtleties can be missed
    
    or mistaken.  ;->
    
    Hamp

    re: .90
    
    Why should the woman feel any less vulnerable saying something like
    this then the man?
    
    I think women should wear a little light bulb on their forehead that
    blinks faster the closer they get to someone they are attracted to.
    No, not just attracted to, but also want to get involved with.
    Lets take the guesswork out of this.  :^)
    
    				- Vick
    
    P.S.  Frankly, I think it's hopeless.  I remember a party I went to
    once where we were all lolling around on the floor and this babe crawls
    over to me, smiles, looks me in the eye, takes my chin in her hand and
    says "I think you're cute."  I called her next day to ask her out and
    she turned me down.  Jeez.  :^(
    

    Well, Vick, I think you're kind of cute myself but I'd never ask you
    out.
    
    As regards the little light bulb, one of the hotsy-totsiest ideas that
    Samuel R. Delany came up with in his novel "Triton" (which incidentally
    also protrays my idea of what a non-sexist society would look like,
    although it's told from the point of view of a sexist) was a hand
    signal used by men, women, teenagers. and "certain genetically modified
    higher species of mammal" to politely signal sexual interest.  The
    signal could, of course, be politely ignored, although (as in our own
    culture) it was common to explicitly deflect interest by talking about
    one's S.O.s or homo/hetero/a-sexuality or offensive personal habits.
    
    For those of you who want tomorrow's politesse today, the signal
    consists of a V, thumb-forefinger-and-middle-finger on one side,
    ring-and-little-finger on the other, easily and casually restable on
    chair backs, shoulders, thighs, etc.
    
    Ray

>    For those of you who want tomorrow's politesse today, the signal
>    consists of a V, thumb-forefinger-and-middle-finger on one side,
>    ring-and-little-finger on the other, easily and casually restable on
>    chair backs, shoulders, thighs, etc.

    I'm no Trekkie myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if Delany's future
    historical trend started from the notorious Spock-porn...
    
    Ray

    
    	::BENNISON,
    	so you're cute, huh???
    
    	<STARE>
    	i'm interested.

    I was back then.  :^)
    
    Some women think I am now, but I didn't believe it back then and I
    don't believe it now.  Remember, I'm the one with the bad body-image.
    :^)
    
    - Vick

    
    	there's something wrong with ::BENNISON's response, folks???
    
    	can you say negativism???

    >I'm the one with the bad body-image.
    
    Welp! We could whip you into shape in the Cruel Spa!:) 

    I got a good body, just a bad body image.  :^)  
    
    - Vick

.83>    See, what did I tell you, Z?  It has to be genetic. 
    
    Well, you know how much I hate to brag ...

.91>    re .90, I'd like to hear a more subtle suggestion.
    
    Smile and say "hi."
    
    That's got to be the safest way to find out if someone's interested.

    re .106
    
    But how are you sure that they are not just being friendly?
    
    I'm not kidding; I have run across so many occurances of it that I now
    assume that they are just being friendly and that a woman would have to
    say so explicitly to make me think otherwise.
    
    Rich

    The body language will clue you in.
    
    If she flashes an honest smile back, you're in, if it's a forced
    smile, steeeerike 1.

    
    i find a rushesque "hah. haryu" works when there isn't
    much time for talk.

    How about, "Excuse me but I couldn't help but notice how the flouresent
    light reflects so softly in your eyes, the gentle way you carress your
    keyboard, how sinfully well your curves show through your business
    suit, how exotic you look in Reeboks."
    
    Either that or "I'd work up a thirst just to drink your bathwater."

Today's _FOX_TROT_ comic strip (Boston Globe, pg 27) has a perfect example of a
woman attempting to drop a hint to a guy.  The last frame shows a woman saying:
	Now I want something that says, "I want you, I love you, I need you,
	ask me out, please, please, please." But only subliminally.

Rich

  re. 108

  I have a *dumb* question... How does one determine whether the smile is
  "genuine" or not? (';

  re. 111

  Obviously we DECcies aren't the only ones afflicted with this problem (';

    
    	heard this on the radio this morning...
    
    	" i hope you know CPR, cuz you take my breath away."

    
.112>  How does one determine whether the smile is "genuine" or not? (';
    
    The answer is in her eyes.

	The answer isn't in her eyes.  The answer is how
	she responds once you get up the nerve to approach her.
	Her eyes and her smile and the way she stirs her martini 
	and the way she dangles her shoe off the end of her foot 
	are all just hints, or maybe just unconcious habits. 	

	The whole exercise is one of risk assesment.  You can only
	decide how much rejection is going to hurt, and what the
	approximate odds of rejection are, and what the potential
	benefit is, and make a decision.  Her eyes and her smile and
	the way she stirs her martini and the way she dangles her shoe
	off the end of her foot are all just hints, or maybe just 
	unconcious habits.

	And, always remember that her (and your) interest could
	change at any time.

	-Jim

    
    	::WIECHMANN brought up a good point....
    	you have to weigh the consequences (good & bad).
    
    	what tends to frustrate me more is to not go through 
    	with something and get annoyed with the `what if's'
    	it's better to know one way or another than to not know
    	at all.

  and...

  a smile could appear to be a grimace
  a wink could really be because they have something in their eye

  and, vic� verc�... (';



  As far as "whatif's", yeah, me too. I hate the o'l "whatif's". Also, another
  one that rates right up there with me are the "ifonly's", ya know what I
  mean? Like, "ifonly" I woulda said "hi" or something like that...

  (sigh) oh well, as they say, "hindsight is always 20/20"

  As far as foresight goes, I can be quite myopic at times ('%


  So much for figuring it all out... I say go for it. The worst she can do is
  say "No", right? I know, I know, those rejections can really bruise the ego.
  But just because she may not be interested, doesn't mean there aren't those
  out there who are. Yeah, and finding them can be pretty tough sometimes, but
  it can be fun too. Kinda like an adventure, eh?

  Oh well, enough of my ramblin'...

  I do have one question, and since this is the 'dating' topic... (';


    What do you guys consider dating to be?

  Kinda vague, huh?

  Well, let me try to rephrase that...


    Does dating, for you all, mean 'wine and dine', or some such thing? Does it
    mean doing 'romantic'-like things? You know, all the stuff that used to go
    with 'courtship'?

    's like I have male friends who I'll 'catcha bite to eat' with or 'we'll
    hit a flick', but I don't consider that dating, cause 'we're *just*
    friends' (iknowiknow, guys hate that expression, right?). Anyway, if we're
    romantically interested, in, say, getting to know eachother better (read,
    date), then the rules seem to be different...

    
  I dunno, just throwing s'more thoughts out on the table...


  �ks, �ī

>  �ks, �ī
    
    A date is not an event.  It is a state of mind. 

    Some years ago I read an article about dating. Called it a mating rite.
    Just like there is the pagentry of football, church, auto racing. There
    is this pagentry/rite called dating. In Playboy years ago there was
    an article called, "the Mating Ritual of Uga-Bug" and of course it
    paralled the rits of becoming a man in Africa as we do for the high
    school prom. The bottom line. Not much of a differnce. Uga had to go
    hunt a lion and he became a man. Adolecents of American, welp.... While
    they are in high school the hunt a young woman. And as they say, "were
    off like a prom dress!" 
    
    Mating rites of adults haven't changed much. When I went to the PWP
    dance. I am still reminded of those stories. And I become sadden when its
    to become a side of beaf looking for another side of beaf. Not what 
    value sets we have, or what we hold dear to our hearts and souls of
    life. Its, does he/she have a cute ass, big pecs/brest, and money.
    
    

    
    	i think too much is stated in the dating rite.....
    
    	i'm much of the mind to meet people before i start thinking
    	well, maybe there's romantic potential. 
    
    	there's nothing more fascination, for me, than to meet someone
    	with similar or opposite views on life, liberty and the pursuit
    	of happiness.
    
    	men are people first then possible mates later.
    
    	but that doesn't mean one should ignore the basic needs for 	
    	lustful companionships....;-)
    
    	right?

    Yes, perhaps too much is of the mating rite. And after a number of
    beers, what have you's. All of us look hansom or pretty. And we all go
    home and share some body fluids together. They we find that we have
    been leading with the loins agian. And we are in deep sh*t because of
    some complicated thing of this or that. And we all wish like hell that
    it wasn't happening. 
    
    Or.... We wake up in the morning. And find our fated date lying in arm
    next to us. But do we wake em up?? Or do we knaw off our arm to slip
    out? :)
    
    

   <-------------::RAUGH


		do you do this often ??

		maybe you should stay out of the local
		watering holes     :-)


		kits
		

    
    	yes, please do as kits says...
    	
    	you'd really blow a hole in my one night out!

    >you'd really blow a hole in my one night out!
    
    Gee. Sorry about that!:) Guess its too many of them redneck bars. So,
    fret not if thats not your kinda place. Sides kit, aren't you in
    someplace in Colorado?? So its Denise who has to worry!:) 

>    Or.... We wake up in the morning. And find our fated date lying in arm
>    next to us. But do we wake em up?? Or do we knaw off our arm to slip
>    out? :)
    
    The real bad ones are the ones where you chew off *both* arms so it
    won't *ever* happen again.
    

    hummmm..... Both ARMS!! Holly tha mollie! Mhan! Must of been something
    real ugly! :)

    .114> The answer is in her eyes.
    
    .115> The answer isn't in her eyes.
    
    Is it in <hir> face?
    Oh no, that's just <hir> charms
    In <hir> warm embrace?
    Oh no, that's just <hir> arms!
    
    Anybody have *all* the Shoop Shoop lyrics?
    
    Leslie

>        <<< Note 743.118 by BRADOR::HATASHITA "Hard wear engineer" >>>
>
>  �ks, �ī
>    
>    A date is not an event.  It is a state of mind. 
>

   You got that one right (';

   �ks, �ī

    >It is a state of mind.
    
    So is Texas and Kentucky. Their states and states of minds. :)
    
    >A date is not an event.
    
    So if its not an event of time, places, and things. What is it besides a
    state of mind or mindless??:)  Humm...... Animal, veggie, minerals.....
    Ha!! I know! Minerals! Dimonds, gold, stuff like that! .........
    Welp... Back to the dungon...

    I would like to contribute an opinion (woman's) for the men in this
    file to consider as it is something that I have recently observed
    (personally) and find it most interesting.
    
    This discussion centers around "fear" of rejection and I'm the first to
    admit that this fear is very real.  Just as all fears are real.
    
    However, it has been my practice to feel the fear and then do it
    anyway.  The reality of life is never as bad as what the immagination
    tries to communicate to us.  And I haven't met anyone who has died from
    either rejection nor embarassment.
    
    Staying in your comfort zone in dating (or for anything else in life),
    to me, is like visiting Disneyland and riding the merry-go-round over
    and over again because you know what to expect from the ride.  (In
    dating you can date the same type of women over and over again and feel
    safe, but that safety can lead to an ending of the story "And they
    Lived ""Boringly" Ever after.)  The roller coaster ride can appear to
    be intimidting and yes fear can set in.  But if you acknowledge the
    fear and "do-it-anyway" the ride may change your perspective about what
    you want to experience in future visits.
    
    Hope I'm not being too abstract here. 
    
    el
    
    ride will leave you with an experience you will never forget