Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Give federal funding back to Planned Parenthood.  Because of their low
    funding, they have moved their focus from distribution of information
    (on birth control, disease control, abortions) to campaigning for 
    abortion rights.  This is a real shame.
    
    					- Vick

    Herb, this is a hard one to answer and I'm tempted to answer it from my
    own personal viewpoint.  There is so much that comes into this.  
    
    One of my first thoughts is that of abstinence.  If a person doesn't
    want a child, don't have sex.  But of course that isn't possible or
    realistic.  I *sometimes* feel that a move towards more traditional
    values in the area of dating, sex etc., would be a good thing. 
    Education is a must for our children.  I am really beginning to believe
    however that the Puritan values our country has is hurting us more than
    helping us.  Children growing up don't get all the facts about sex. 
    Sex in this country is viewed as being shameful and dirty.  We are also
    a country of instant gratification.  Kind of the attitude, "I want it
    NOW and the hell with consequences".  So what happens when our instant
    gratification results in an unplanned pregnancy?  All sorts of issues
    come up, abortion, adoption, keeping the child, do both parents really
    want the child, who is going to be financially responsible etc?
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that attitudes might need to be
    changed, thinking about the consequences of our actions BEFORE we act,
    and deciding what risks we really want to take.  Each of us has our own
    individual responsibility and we each need to be accountable for our
    actions.  Maybe if more people felt the consequences of their actions,
    there would be fewer unplanned pregnancies.
    
    Karen (who is ducking to avoid incoming missles)

    	My suggestion:
    
    	Both parties would regard themselves as being personally
    	responsible for preventing accidental pregnancy.  Both
    	parties would use their preferred methods of birth control 
    	regardless of the fact that the other person is also using 
    	some other method.
    
    	Two methods would have a far greater chance of catching any
    	mistakes or B.C. failures (since it's doubtful they would
    	both fail at the same time.)

    Re. .2
    
    Well said.
    					--Eric--

RE .2

>    One of my first thoughts is that of abstinence.  If a person doesn't
>    want a child, don't have sex.  But of course that isn't possible or
>    realistic.

Abstinence can be very possible and realistic.

Rich

(Who's somewhere around 2 years of abstinence)

    re .5, abstinence may be a possible and realistic course for some
    people, but it isn't for everyone.  I, for one, hope I never have to go
    two years without sex.  To be honest, I can't even imagine how anyone
    could be a happy person under such conditions.  If some people want to
    live that way, fine, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect
    everyone to consider this an option.  Personally, I'd be miserable.
    
    I agree with Suzanne in .3, that both partners should be equally
    responsible, and I think this country needs to get rid of it's
    puritanistic attitudes and stop pretending that most people don't have
    sex, and get more and better sex education into the school systems.
    
    Lorna
    

Education

I openly and honestly talk with my kids about sex, STDs, pregnancies,
sharing their bodies with another etc.  My kids and I have investigated
everything from condoms to vasectomies and sponges to tubaligations.  I
personally chose a vasectomy ten years ago.  While I know when the time
comes for them to make a decision about sex I won't be around at least they
will be informed.

Patrick

    re .5
    
    When I talked about abstinence, I thought about married couples.  If
    children aren't wanted in the marriage, and it's agreed upon by both
    people, then abstinence isn't an answer.
    
    Other than that, yes, abstinence can be very possible and realistic.
    
    Karen

    RE: .2
    
    Karen, maybe most adults can understand the "consequences" of their
    actions, but what about teenagers and young adults ?
    
    Go into the cities and tell teenagers and young adults that they
    need to be responsible and understand the consequences of their
    actions ... that message is failing every day in cities across
    our country
    
    Sex education in 1992 has been reduced to handing out condoms in
    Public Schools ... so I can agree that kids aren't getting all the
    facts, they get that condom and a pat on the back for using it
    
    

    re .8,.2
    
    aha when you said "that isn't possible"
    you were thinking in terms of one member of a partnership abstaining!
    (is that right?)
    
    but then you said
    <if children aren't wanted in the marriage, and it's agreed upon by
    <both people, then abstinence isn't an answer
    why wouldn't it be an answer?
    
    or did you perhaps mean "then abstinence isn't necessary" 
    (because some other form of birth control would have been agreed to?)
    
    
    				herb

    I had similar questions around "responsibility" for twixt 12 & 20.
    Not really sure what "responsibility" MEANS either. I hope it isn't in
    some punitive sort of sense.

    re .9
    
    Maybe adults can understand the consequences of their actions, but
    adults don't always own the responsibility of their actions.  Look at
    the number of lawsuits in this country and tell me it isn't so.
    
    I made my case for education.  I don't know if I put in in MENNOTES,
    but I watched a documentary last week called "Sexual Survival".  One of
    the issues this documentary brought up was a comparison between what
    American kids are taught and what Danish kids are taught as far as sex
    education goes.  Danish children begin their sex education in
    elementary school.  They are shown movies, sex is discussed openly,
    they are even taught how to put condoms on correctly.  In this country,
    we have parents fighting to prevent our kids from even THINKING the word 
    condom, much less teaching them what they need to know about sex.  The
    taxi's in Denmark even have billboard signs on top showing the word
    AIDS, with the "I" being a penis with a condom.  That would never fly in 
    this country.  Lorna and I both agree that a big part of the problem in
    this country is the Puritanical views around sex, that sex is bad and
    dirty.  Seems to me that we need to work on changing this kind of
    attitude so we can get good and comprehensive sex education for our 
    children.
    
    Karen

    re .10
    
    Herb,
    I guess my line of thinking there is that maybe in a marriage where
    both people really love one another, that isn't having all sorts of
    problems, but the two people know that they don't want children,
    abstinence isn't the birth control method of choice.  That's what I
    mean about it not being realistic or possible.
    
    Karen

    re .13
    yup, that's what it seemed like you probably meant.
    
    
    				h
    

    I took a bus home the other day.  The bus-driver talked to a teenage
    boy about his date.  The boy told the bus-driver that he was crazy
    about one girl, and he was not "getting any" with this girl.  The
    bus-driver (probably the boy's father or uncle) told him not to stay
    with this girl if he did not get any.  He said: "You should get other
    girls, as many as you can when you are still young."  The boy promised
    that he would do that.  Both never talked about responsibility, or
    pregnancies, or STD

    Would it have been Ok if the driver said "and make sure you use
    a condom?"

I think that the majority of "unplanned" pregnancies in this country happen
among teens.  And that's a very complex problem.  A lot of these girls live in
relatively poor neighborhoods and grow up feeling hopeless and unloved.  They
get pregnant *on purpose* (which is why I quoted the word unplanned--maybe
"unwise" would be a better term), just to have somebody to love who will love
them back.

Making a significant dent in these pregnancies is going to take more than
better education and attitudes.  These girls already know that they can't afford
to raise a child, and that the fathers are unlikely to help (or have an income
which will be of much help, even if the law catches up with them).  They don't
care.  It might take the complete elimination of poverty and oppression in this
country to make a difference.

                                                       -- Mike

    
    I reckon that unplanned pregnancy is only one of a host of sexually
    related problems that plague our society - and the only way to 
    start to sort out these symptoms is to get to the roots and look
    at the puritanical, repressed, closetted way our societies
    deal with sexual activity.
    
    We need to talk, to communicate, to open up those subjects that
    we whisper about - everything from gay issues to S&M, pornography,
    to sex within marriage, sex outside marriage, age of consent -
    and stop burying our heads in the sand and deliberately
    misinforming ourselves ("Of COURSE *my* son/daughter doesn't have
    underage sex"...yeah right. No-one's does....)
    While we continue to split sex off as a taboo subject within
    our relationships and our society, there will be problems.
    
    Then, hopefully, we can get to a point where we can *educate*.
    Intelligent, detailed, guilt-free sex education NOT ONLY in
    schools but for everyone who feels they want it. Free, and
    publically available regardless of race, social class, gender 
    or orientation - take away the stigma around admitting that you
    may not know everything about the subject in a society that
    has done a good job of giving many of us performance anxiety
    in abundance...
    And, naturally, free contraception.
    
    And *then* I reckon we'd see the number of unwanted pregnancies
    fall - along with a drop in the rate of HIV transmission, STDs,
    marital sexual problems, non-marital sexual problems, kids
    committing suicide because they feel they're gay, young
    women killing themselves because they think they've got a disease
    when their periods start because no-one ever told them about it
    (that was what started the Samaritans phone-counselling organisation
    off)...
    And I suspect that this would impact the "gender wars" somewhat
    also.
    
    'gail
     
    
    

re .6

Since you are a single woman you probably have a greater number of people
offering you sex than I do as a single man.

Rich

(one of the "benefits" of being male is that very few people ask you for sex.)

    .12 
    Karen,
    
    	What is said about sex education goes with the story of if its good
    enough for me, its good for the children insofar as sex ed goes. Hence
    they are playing with a loaded gun, and don't know how to put on the
    safty when they children become more sexually active.

    What is also sad, is that a local chapter of Act-up was handing out
    condoms and etc to the local high school students in Manchester N.H.
    last month. And they were out and out rejected for their actions. I
    felt that their cause was certainly one with great merrits. And praise
    them for their boldness. We need like them.

    re .19, I would think that one of the benefits of being a man is that
    traditionally you're expected to ask when you want it.  (instead of
    just try to be appealing and hope the guy gets the idea)
    
    Lorna
    

re .22

Recent news has made many men more hesitant than normal about asking for it.
Besides being expected to ask for it is no bargain.  We can't reliably read
minds, and there is a significant amount of stress from the possibly of rejection
of even asking a woman out.

Rich

    
    Free birth control for all men and women.  Publically available at all
    hours.
    
    Education of children AND adults that there need not be shame in sex. 
    It is a natural event.
    
    Increasing tremendously the budget spent on birth control research. 
    I'll bet that if there can be a norplant for women that works on most
    of them (there are some women norplant - the hormonal implant - won't
    work on for a variety of reasons), there can be a norplant that can
    work for all of them.  There may even be a possibility for a reversible
    chemical implant for men.  The keys are: no side effects, total
    reversibility, and total ease of use without lost time, effort, and
    pleasure.
    
    -Jody
    

    Recognition that unplanned children are a huge huge drain on many
    societal resources.

    Unplanned children are people, and are valuable. If you insist on
    talking about societal resources, they are the societal resources who
    will pay your pension!
    
    Technology indicates that in Western society the current level of
    production (standard of living) could be maintained with up to 90%
    unemployment. If that is your model, then 90% of the next generation is
    unneccessary, and unplanned ones should obviously be the first to be
    discarded.
    
    	The least drain on societal resources is no people.

    I believe that there is a very substantial correlation between being
    the product of an irresponsible coupling and being a societal drain.
    I do not have figures to prove it.
    Annecdotal 'evidence' to the contrary will not be convincing.

    RE: .25
    
    Can you get any more callus than that ??

    
    webster's ninth
    
    callous:
    1
    	a)	being hardened and thickened
    	b)	having calluss
    2
    	a)	having no emotions
    	b)	feeling no sympathy for others
    
    I doubt that you can find many people who cry more for the plight of
    unwanted children than I do. It is more than sympathy I feel, it is
    empathy.
    
    	

    re:  Herb's "callousness"
    
    I don't see that as callous at all, Christopher.  I similarly see the
    drug problem as a huge drain on societal resources.  That doesn't mean
    I don't have sympathy for the victims in either case.  But it might
    help us arrive at a solution if society in general realized the impact
    that the problem was having on their pocketbooks, on their quality of
    life.  Since we are asking "How do we solve the problem."  Looking at
    the societal impact seems more productive than sitting around feeling
    sorry for people.
    					- Vick
    

RE: .24

An aside on BC technology:  there has been recent research on a sort of birth-
control "vaccine" based on a signature protein found on the head of spermatozoa.
The vaccine causes the body (male or female) to have an immune response to the
presence of sperm.  It is equally effective in male or female and a version for
rats was found to be 99% effective and 100% reversible (after about six months
of not taking it).  Of course, it'll be most of a decade before a human product
could make it to the market.

                                                -- Mike

    RE: .30
    
    Vick, I do not beleive this issue has anything to do
    with sitting around and feeling sorry for people (slight paraphrase)
    
    I (still) read Herb's statement as callous for the following 
    
    - it takes direct aim at pretty helpless group
    
    - it appears prejudice; prejudice in that these 'resources'  are
      readily available to certain classes of people, while 
      other classes are seen as only 'draining' same said 'resources'
    
    As for solutions, sure tell me what is has cost me, and what it 
    will continue to cost me ... but is that all ??
    
    I personally don't think so, there is also the human side
    which requires personal involvement on a very emotional level.
    As long as our pocketbooks remain the only concern, the
    solution to many social problems will remain something of mystery
    
    i think i've got off the topic ... 

    .32
    I think you misunderstand both Herb and me.  We are saying that
    the "pretty helpless" group should be helped by you and me via the
    government, instead of being ignored, as they presently are, by and
    large.  We aren't saying that they are to blame for society's problems.  
    We are saying that therein lies a problem for our society and we should 
    solve it.  That's what I'm saying anyway, and that's how I took what 
    Herb was saying.
    
    					- Vick

    me too
    

    RE: -1
    
    could you then please elaborate further on your statement
    in .25 so I can 'understand'
    

    no
    

    By the way, it is my opinion that this is one reality that cannot be
    changed.
    
    It will always and forever be the case (well at least as long as
    moral proscriptions to birth control -let alone abortion- remain in
    force) that there are unexpected pregnancies some of which will end up
    as unwanted children.

    Actually it's probably even longer than that. I'd guess there will be
    unwanted pregnancies at least as long as boys lust after girls and
    girls lust after boys.
    
    
    				

    in re the last paragraph..
    
    'twas ever thus...

    And in Mexico City, there are an estimated 1,000,000 (? could that
    POSSIBLY be true?) homeless children.
    Many South American and Central American city have scores of thousands
    of homeless and parentless and OH SO UNWANTED children.
    
    			herb
    

Recap...

Almost everyone agreed in this string that Education was the key to providing
the best solution to the problem(s) of unplanned pregnancies.  Getting in the
way of this solution was our countries "Puritan values" as well as the attitude
"I want it NOW and the hell with consequences" (.2 good reply, Karen). In .37
herb stated "I'd guess there will be unwanted pregnancies at least as long as
boys lust after girls and girls lust after boys".

So, how should we Educate ourselves?  How do we get a handle on Lust?  Is there
such a thing as the Sanctity of Life?

It would seem that Denmark has the right idea...  I would think that a campaign
in this country would be possible, something like "Make Love before having Sex",
love yourself to protect yourself, love your partner to protect him/her, loving
your progeny starts with WANTing them, etc.  Coupled with this would be the
proper information/curriculum for age groups and schools.