Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    This seems to be the section of the article with the most valid points. 
    Is that why none of us are fighting about it?
    
    Ray

Because men want it this way?  Seems that way sometimes.   This is an
attitude thousands of years old - it's hard to shake or even recognize it
for not being "the way it has to be".

			Steve

    I think this one is for the most part self-explanitory except to add
    that it is yet another indicator in the imbalance of the attention
    paid to *women's issues* over "men's issues"
    fred()

    in re .3
    
    Then why aren't you guys talking about it for heaven's sake!?!

    	When it comes to health issues, I have no idea why so little
    	information is given about the research done on men.
    
    	Almost NO health studies are done on women (which is a scandal
    	that has hit the media in the past year or so.)  Even BREAST
    	CANCER studies are done with male subjects, not to mention all
    	the heart disease studies, etc.
    
    	When the info was released about Aspirin helping prevent heart
    	attacks, for example, they were only able to say that it prevents
    	heart attacks in men (since ONLY MEN were the subjects of the
    	study.)
    
    	The only studies done on women are the "social" ones (and these
    	are usually done as "sensationalistic" yellow journalism garbage,
    	such as the study that women over a certain age had almost no
    	chance to get married.  Although this study was totally debunked,
    	it wasn't "news" as much as the first faulty findings were, so
    	the true figures ended up on the back page somewhere.)
    
    	Getting back to the health studies, people have the wrong
    	impression if they think that all the studies are done on women.
    	The opposite is true (or very nearly so.)  Researchers claim
    	that women's bodies are too complicated, which is why even
    	breast cancer studies are done on men instead of women.

    Suzanne is entirely correct. Almost all medical research is done
    on men, and very little is known about the differences between
    the two sexes as to applicability. 
    Bonnie

    The discussion purports to be about why men are more at risk, not
    about the disparity in populations in medical studies

    That's all well and good but it doesn't address the problems pointed
    out in the base note.
    
    Ray

    RE: the lack of health research done using women as subjects
    
    The point was raised because of a comment in .3 which implied that
    the "imbalance" in health issues was in "the attention paid to
    *women's issues* over 'men's issue.'"
    
    This is a topic about health - I was merely pointing out that the
    imbalance in "the attention paid" to this issue is that men are
    the objects of nearly all the health studies, not women.

    Perhaps "men's health" isn't the best name for this topic (if
    the intent is to discuss why men's health isn't being addressed
    in a big way).  The reason I say this is because men's health
    most certainly IS being addressed in a big way.  Virtually any
    medical journal or major news magazine article on medicine will
    report yet another study or finding regarding men's health.

    There are entire magazines devoted to men's health and fitness.

    The base note also talks about work injuries and says no one cares.
    I would be hard pressed to believe decades of OSHA regulations are
    the result of a government entity that doesn't care about men's
    safety in the work place.

    I do agree that issues like suicide, rape and domestic battering 
    where men are the victims, are things that are virtually ignored.
    This is a tragedy.  But I don't know what to do about it.  It would
    seem logical, when wondering where the counseling, crisis-lines
    and shelters for men are, to look at how women got these things.
    My perception is that women recognized there was a problem and
    organized and protested and demanded that something be done about it.
    Does anyone know if the services for women were provided in some other 
    way?  Yes, I know many are tax-funded, but someone had to lobby for
    that money.

    How come our government of mostly male elected officials hasn't
    responded to these things?

    For what it is worth, I've heard that there *are* a few cities now
    that have crisis-lines for men who have been raped or sexually abused.
    If anyone is interested I can look up references.....

    /Greg

    Greg,
    
    Men who are raped or battered are ridiculed in this society.  There is
    a definite shame factor in men reporting rape or battery.  There are,
    however, more and more men opening up about these types of issues,
    including men who were sexually abused as children.  There are more
    books being published that are dealing with these issues.  But there is
    still the undercurrent of men being laughed at, humiliated and shamed when
    they report these crimes.
    
    Karen

    Why isn't anyone studying the reason men don't live as long as
    women (and why adult men have an alarming rate of suicide)?  Simple. 
    They already know why.
    
    Men bear an unfair amount of the political, legal, social and economic
    burdens of life in our society (while being pressured to live up to
    the image of the fearless, unemotional tower of strength that our
    society defines as "manly.")
    
    If our society shared these burdens with the other half of the human
    race, men would probably live longer (and without this kind of stress.)
    
    It's so hard for our culture to give up on the idea of men carrying the 
    demands of this much responsibility and "power," though, even if it's 
    killing men (and it is.)

    Men die younger; men get murdered; men die by their own hand; men get
    more dangerous work; men are expected to sacrifice themselves for
    "women and children"; and men get little sex-specific support.  I think
    that accurately sums it up.
    
    My take:
    
    Men are instructed to expect power and possessions. This is groovy
    'cause traditionally we have a shot at more power and possessions, but
    it causes excruciating pressure. Since we've been trained to be "in
    charge", we're trained to try to wrest staus from other men, across a
    range from physical violence to stinging insults to friendly banter. 
    Men are more likely to be murdered or have heart attacks because men
    view other men as there to be knocked down (and know that they're fair
    game themselves), until they've proven themselves worthy of inclusion
    in the young boy's gang or the Old Boys Network.  Think elephant
    seals...
    
    Weakness can't be shown; letting your guard down lets the other guy get
    too much power; men who can't take it aren't real men and are only
    deserving of mockery. Thus no crisis line, no battered men's shelters,
    difficulties in letting go.
    
    I don't think society has to work this way; I think some societies
    don't.  But the more society turns to the Good Old Days when men were
    men and women were widows, the worse this stuff gets.  I do NOT believe
    that men are here to sacrifice themselves for women because I do NOT
    believe that women are inferior to men.  But they're in an inferior
    position now, and I want that changed.
    
    In some ways (these exact ways, as a matter of fact), having the power
    is a sucker's game.  That's one of many reasons my feminism isn't
    altruistic. The slightly increased chances at success in a field with
    fewer competitors, and at having dinner cooked for me every night, are
    NOT worth these prices for me. 
    
    Some ingrained "manly" habits -- bristling and growling at new males in
    the pack, for example -- have been tough for me to break.  Some of them
    I enjoy too much to want to give up -- not only because they're
    "masculine", but because they're traits I enjoy.  Some ingrained
    "womanly" habits have been hard for some women to break, judging from
    some of the stories told here.  Let everyone have access to the full
    set and be willing to pay the price for their choices.
    
    Ray

    re .13, .14
    thankyou for expressing your thoughts; they are rather similar to mine
    
    
    				herb

    Susanne; Not to start WWIII over this one. In a marriage, you expect
    your partner to help with the chores as we are expected to do so. And
    when that partner decides to go for the ride vs being a working partner
    it adds burden to the functional partner. I have had this happen to me
    as much as it has happened to others of the opp gender. I think the
    worring about playing the hunter, breadwinner, and good SO sometimes
    makes for the extra worries. It makes one worry even more so when
    you have put yourself thru night school, offered your SO that chance
    too, to which she refused, and your trying to make up that difference.
    Bottom line, in a relationship outside of work there exist more of that 
    in-equality than in our work enviorment. I wish there were more like
    you with your attitude than those who are in the traditional role
    of let the man do it all. Do the future financing, do the hunting in
    the corp, do the equal parenting, house painting, cleaning of the
    house, going to school nights, balancing the books, maintaing the
    car/fleet, etc etc. And because your doing it all..... You get
    corn holed by the courts. Your not able to see your children agian.
    Your accused of abandoning the family for the all mighty dollar, for
    your job, for some other figure that is not what your intentions were
    set out to be. Perhaps I should shut up and stop rambling.

    I like the way you put it in .16, George.  I agree (except for the
    "Perhaps I should shut up" part). 
    
    It seems important for men not to blindly walk into marriage-traps like
    that, but I guess that must be one of those easier-said-than-done
    things, since it involves shifting the standards of attractiveness...
    
    Ray

    Thanks Ray! I didn't know how much sence I was making there. It happens
    to both sides. I guess because we do not talk and communicate like the
    women do it adds to our stress factor and makes us older faster. 
    
    I have worked many hours in the 40 and in outside interest. And find
    that when I take a vacation after many hours of heavy work of both
    interest, I develope a cold. I have been told that because I have been
    under the gun for lenghty peroids and the fact that the body comes to a
    temp rest that your open to sickness. I once met a man who worked for
    some umpteen years with the Boston Globe. Two months after he retired,
    he recieved a crippling stroke that rendered him to a nursing home. 
    Because for many of us, that our work becomes our mistriss, we pay that
    price.

    I'll ask one question:

    		Who would take me seriously and help me if I said," A women
    beat me up, raped me ( because I said no), and humiliated me in front
    of my kids"? This did not happen to me but to someone I know.


    			Wayne

    	RE: .19  Wayne
    
    	> Who would take me seriously and help me...
    
    	I would, and so would most people I know.
    
    	If you didn't have evidence, though, the law isn't likely to
    	take you seriously.  Women aren't taken seriously by the police
    	and the criminal courts EITHER unless they have evidence (or at 
    	least the serious injuries to prove that such an attack took place.)
    
    	If you wanted to get a restraining order against your wife for
    	physical abuse, the court would grant you one.  A man I know did
    	this (without being abused.)  He heard his wife was going to get
    	a restraining order against him, so he beat her to it (and it
    	stuck.)  This happened in the early 80's in Colorado.

    Welp..... Threre was a man from Exeter N.H. who was not taken serious
    at all by anyone. He WAS PAYING for her class's in martial arts. And
    he would come home to getting his body slammed around one night, and 
    thrown out of the house, and the was slapped by a restraining order.
    He checked in to find a few ribs were broken. And no one gave a rats
    butt. He moved out of state, and a year ago this month took his life in
    Washington State. No one will listen, no one cares. What of these second
    class citizens?
    

    
    he wuz a man.
    
    men have to be able to take it. if they can't, they are expected
    to terminate themselves with a minimum of fuss and bother.
    
    that is left to the females and agitators...