Conference quark::mennotes-v1

>    As a child, to what extent did your parents or guardian reinforce
>    any gender specific roles? That is to say:  "this is a man's job ..
>    that is a woman's job".

Constantly reminded (primarily by my father) that there are certain things
that women do and there are certain things that men do - and - until I
left home ... never the twain shall meet.

>    Were you ever admonished that "men don't do such-and-such"? Example?

ABSOLUTELY!  I remember (well) wanting to stay in the kitchen and help with
the cooking but was [promptly] told that I was to handle the milk barn and
the women would handle the kitchen -- at the same time I could never 
understand why it was "men's work" to clean the fish, dress out a dear,
skin the squirrel, pluck the chickens ... etc ... seemed to me like that
should be part of cooking!!

Never could understand why I was expected to help my mother clean the
house when that was supposed to be "woman's work" and the men would stick
to the farm-type work. 

This also extended [heavily] to my method of dress.  If a shirt looked
effeminate - I was told so - in no uncertain terms.  Once when I was 13
I saved my money to buy a pair of red trousers.  My father told me that
red trousers were "for women or queers".  I was DEVASTATED - took the
trousers out to the fire barrel and burnt 'em ... post haste.

>    How old were you when you finally discovered that women can do some of
>    the things that you previously thought was "man's work"?

At the ripe old age of about 16 I saw my first woman barber - cutting a man's
hair.  I was flabbergasted.  Just couldn't understand how a man could let
a woman cut his hair. Then ... my father started going to the female barber -
he had a difficult time explaining that bit of inconsistency (I was at least
getting somewhat 'brave' at 16 and started to question some of this stuff).

Then, at 18 I saw my first woman Marine - stereotypes really went to hell in
a hand basket after that.

>    Did you "accept" it as the way things were and then find yourself growing
>    out of it (assuming that you did) or did you question your parent(s)
>    position on matters such as this?

You had to know my papa to know that you didn't question him one hell of
a lot.

>    If you are in the process of raising any children ... or have in the past
>    had children ... in all honesty ... are there any gender specific roles
>    that you may may have given your children?

Yep.  Guilty.  I've told my two girls that if they want to serve in the armed
forces of the United States, that's fine and dandy, but, I don't want to see
them in a combat (front line) role.

Don't get me wrong - I don't fault my parents - that was their generation,
and, their generation is disappearing (my father passed away last year).

Bubba

    > As a child, to what extent did your parents or guardian reinforce
    > any gender specific roles? That is to say:  "this is a man's job ..
    > that is a woman's job".
    
    The boys had to help with the yard work, and put out the garbage.  The
    girls help in clean-up after meals.  One particularl occaision that
    sticks out is a hot-summer day on which me and my brothers had to rake
    the sand and thatch out of the lawn while the girls were allowed to
    play in the pool.
    
    Other than that I can't recall any differences in which my parents
    treated myself or my siblings.  We were all expected to do our best,
    and my parents would never accept "I can't do it" for an answer until
    after we had made an honest attempt.
    
    I'm not in the process of raising children (I'm single), but I
    occaisionally deal with them in karate class.  Though there are more
    boys in class than girls, I expect the same effort from each of them.
    
    Rich

    I never heard the "that's a man/woman s job" from either of my
    parents but I had two grandmothers that forbid men into the kitchen
    except for special circumstances. To the best of my memory I never
    gained entry into my maternal grandmothers kitchen.
    As far as man/woman work goes my parents always practiced the theory
    if you noticed something needed done it was your job. Why cloud the
    picture with all the gender crap. If the real world were as nearly
    screwed up as this notes file makes it out to be we'd have all
    been committed long ago.
    
   -j Who has had ZERO gender war experiences outside of MENNotes.
    

    Jerry,
    
        I'd have to answer no to most of the questions posed.  I was never
    really told this is a woman/mans job or told how to dress or not dress. 
    The only thing I ever remember being gender related was being told big
    boys don't cry. 
    
                                                         Capt.  Scott

    When I was growing up I was always responsible for mowing the
    lawn, taking out the garbage and shoveling the driveway.  I
    have five sisters (no brothers) who were supposed to help my
    mom with the housework.  Generally speaking, my mom did most
    of the stuff in the house and I did most of the stuff outside
    the house.  My sisters would help if there was a bad snowstorm
    and when they got big enough to move the lawn-mower, they started
    to help me with that too.

    I think I was generally granted a bit more latitude than my sisters
    when it came to things like curfews and going off to do things on my
    own.  I used to think it was because I was more responsible than my
    sisters but for a while now I've been thinking the *reason* I was
    more responsible was because my folks *expected* it of me and gave me
    the opportunity to prove myself.

    Also, my dad seems to have been more interested in seeing me get
    a college education than any of my sisters, though he was very
    supportive of my one sister who did express an interest in going
    to business school.

    Other than that, I don't recall any strong attempts by my parents or
    relatives to enforce gender roles (none of the "That's for girls!" or
    "Only boys to *that*!" kinda thing - my folks didn't make any racist,
    sexist or homophobic comments either, that I recall....I think all
    those things are related).   

    I've never been shocked or upset at seeing a man in a role
    traditionally held by a women or a women doing a job usually done
    by a man, though I have been surprised at learning a particular
    person's gender and I do notice sexist patterns in the way I treat
    people (but I seem to be able to adapt quickly if the person I'm dealing 
    with reacts to my sexism - I'm trying to work on this....).

    If I were a parent, I'd encourage my children to follow their dreams and 
    not limit themselves to stereotyped gender roles.

    /Greg

    When I was ten and the oldest of 4 children my mother died. Dad
    did everything and I always thought all men did. There were not
    men's jobs or women's jobs. Everyone did everything around our 
    house. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, you name it.
    
    We're raising our son the same way. Once in the first grade he
    came home and said something to the effect that boys became doctors
    and girls became nurses. Both my wife and I ha long talks with him
    about that one. He doesn't hear that kind of talk around our house.
    
    		Alfred

    >As a child, to what extent did your parents or guardian reinforce
    >any gender specific roles? That is to say:  "this is a man's job ..
    >that is a woman's job".

	Both of my parents worked out of the house and for a number of
	years when I was younger, they worked the same job; I remember
	them working piece work making shoes at Porter Shoe in Milford and
	for a while, my father drilled gun barrels and my mother made trigger
	mechanism for M16's at Harrington & Richardson in Worcester. My
	mother eventually got her GED and went to nursing school, my father
	is still a machinist. They both cooked, laundry was handled by either
	and both did it badly ( everything went on hot!!! ). Housecleaning
	was my mother's work, my father handled car and yard stuff. The house
	was always a disaster but then so was the yard. They handled money
	together though my mother wrote all checks. Both came from alcoholic
	families so neither is particularly emotional,supportive or 
	nurturing. They were both born in 1942 and I was born in 1960; 2 kids
	fleeing screwed up families having one of their own. To the best of
	my recollection, there were no specified roles let alone gender 
	specific ones. My mother stayed home briefly after each child.

    >Were you ever admonished that "men don't do such-and-such"? Example?

	This is not "men" specific, but I was as a child extremely upset
	because I knew that a playmate was going to be severely punished for
	an act that we mutually (all us kids) had done. We basically were 
	attempting to blow up hairspray cans in a big fire and it got out
	of control. My father was very upset at my crying. I was probably
	about 9 or 10. His attitude was that it wasn't any of my business.

	I baked cakes and cookies and stuff when I was 11 or so with my
	younger siblings so we'd have something for dessert. My parents
	weren't big on dessert but they always served what we made. We 
	never burnt anything though things got a little messy sometimes.
	Both my brother and I did our own hemming eventually. We were too
	impatient to wait. 

    >How old were you when you finally discovered that women can do some of
    >the things that you previously thought was "man's work"?

	I always knew that my parents worked for wages with which they fed,
	clothed, and supported us and themselves and also to indulge in some
	of life's luxuries; like the drive-in,takeout pizza, a special sewing
	machine or a new bandsaw, and to prepare for retirement. You did what
	you had to do. No gender specific roles. Granted though the reading I
	did as a child/pre-teen/adolescent placed men in the hero/protector of
	civilization role and women in the princess/victim of evil role. Except
	for Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler and those are a whole other set of role
	models.

    >Did you "accept" it as the way things were and then find yourself growing
    >out of it (assuming that you did) or did you question your parent(s)
    >position on matters such as this?

	My interpretation of their position as a child was "You're fed,clothed 
	and housed, take care of the rest yourself!". In actuality, I believe 
	now that they are just your average children of alcoholics and they 
	would have met most needs that I had as a child if I could have 
	articulated that need. 
	
	I did have to grow out of coming to the rescue (actually therapized out
	if it) and the assumptions I made from reading adult magazines got 
	trashed by being in real relationships. (Only 30% of women have orgasms
	from vaginal intercourse. Surprise, surprise !!!)(HITE Report)

    >If you are in the process of raising any children ... or have in the past
    >had children ... in all honesty ... are there any gender specific roles
    >that you may may have given your children?

	I would have a hard time not imparting the Code of Chivalry to my
	sons.  I still find myself attempting to be the man "Doc Savage"
	was; incredibly brilliant and super strong, incapable of fatigue and
	resourceful in every situation; non-emotional, cool and calculating.
	I would not want to dump that on anyone but I find I still use those
	benchmarks on myself. I actually admire those qualities in women also
	so I'd probably mess all my kids up equally. As a child, I felt the 
	world was a lonely, cruel place where only the fittest survived.
	Independent and self-sufficient at all times. I have not had the 
	breakthrough some have had 're-parenting my inner child' so I would
	have to be careful parenting actual children.


	As an aside, I'm racking my brain trying to remember the pulp fiction
	character along the lines of Doc Savage, who had all his facial 
	muscles frozen in some duel with an enemy so he could no longer 
	express emotions with his face. Talk about a metaphor for society's
	expectations of men. Do you remember 'The Penetrator' (ex Green
	Beret, expert sharpshooter now in a battle against organized
	crime in America), 'The Destroyer' (same stuff, details about guns
	and armament didn't seem as good), the pulp series starring a martial 
	arts expert/ninja battling crime. At one point, I read these constantly.
	What heroes and role models for boys and men !!! I don't know if
        women read that type of pulp fiction ?
    
    	Ray Hayes
    

    

    Re .7: Hey, I was a _big_ "Destroyer" fan! Up through about book #50,
    when I lost energy, that is. I never thought of Remo, that pale piece
    of pig's ear, as a role model, but I named my cat "Chiun". ;-)
    
    Then again, I never consciously picked role models by gender-
    identification, possibly because it never occurred to me, and possibly
    because in the books I read there were so few female protagonists who
    seemed to be involved in activities that I thought were fun. I
    identified with Mowgli more than Alice-in-Wonderland, the Hardy Boys
    more than Nancy Drew and friends, and even the rather nasty heroes of
    Edgar Allen Poe more than his (sometimes equally nasty, but usually
    victimized) heroines. I wanted to do the rescuing, not be rescued; go
    on the quests, not be the object of one; slay the dragon - or *be* the
    dragon - rather than the helpless victim. (There are actually quite a
    few fairy tales, myths and legends in which women hold a great deal of
    power, but for some reason those didn't get nearly the same attention
    in the schools I went to as the male-as-hero-female-on-pedestal kind.)
    
    Hey, there's a question. Did any of you men ever admire and wish to
    emulate a particular woman, whether a live person or a fictional/
    mythical character? Are there any men out there who would rather have
    had Alice's adventures than Mowgli's, or Anne-of-Green-Gables' than Tom
    Sawyer's? I'm not asking if you ever wanted to _be_ female, just
    whether any female characters impressed you as being so gifted or
    clever or lucky or brave that you'd want to be like them...
    
    -b

    
    I started a new topic 727 to talk about the hero stuff I'd entered in
    725.7. Hopefully I haven't sidetracked this note.
    
    	Ray Hayes
    

    As a child it never occurred to me that there was a distinction between
    male and female work. There was work that was done, and work that
    needed to be done, period. As the 2d eldest of 6 (and the top 3 are
    boys) I knew how to clean, iron, do dishes, change and wash diapers as
    well as garden, cut firewood, do carpentry, feed the chickens  -- and
    did all this as a regular part of life.
    
    Some work fell along sex lines, based more on skill then anything else
    -- my mother cooked and my father did the carpentry. But my father was
    a super-efficient cleaner, and when he zoomed the vacuum under your
    feet as you took a break, you got the message.
    
    But then my father was pretty strong-willed and independent. A
    Princeton graduate and a decorated war veteran, he chucked it all for
    the life of a carpenter in the country.  What's a little housework to
    that?
    
    Thank God I never had to bear the silly burden of sex-specific work. 
    Nor will our 3 kids. 
    
    

    Good questions, Bubba (and -beth).
    
    My parents met in the Navy.  My mother left the service after they
    married, but it may have cut down on the man-job / woman-job thing. 
    
    There was no overt verbal reinforcement that I can remember; just the
    usual cultural pressures. I admit it took me an unusually long time to
    realize how to gain boys' respect (it's not enough to knock 'em down,
    you have to do it in an approved fashion). But many boys and girls go
    through similar traumas with their own sex... 
    
    Housework of all sorts was pretty well divided between my brother and
    me, though Mom did the laundry.  Mom did the cooking for the most part,
    too, which was too bad since she's an awful cook; when Dad took over it
    was a relative treat (except for blackeyed peas with ham hocks).
    
    My mother is kind of flighty; my father is a typical stoic-or-joking-
    or-irritated father.  I learned pretty quickly from watching girls   
    (: >,) and my teachers and my mother's friends that I couldn't
    generalize from her; I guess it took me longer with my father, and I
    still retain a certain amount of impatience with "sensitive men".
    
    The end results were me and my brother, who is, how you say, a MANLY
    man -- body-builder, sticks jaw out, doesn't talk much, played
    football, majored in law enforcement, Navy pilot. 
    
    I would try REAL hard to not give gender-specific rules to kids, but I
    bet that's no surprise. 
    
    Ray

	RE: .8

>    Hey, there's a question. Did any of you men ever admire and wish to
>    emulate a particular woman, whether a live person or a fictional/
>    mythical character?

	Yes - Grace Murray Hopper. I almost joined the Navy because of
	her. And she did help make me want a career in computers.

			Alfred

    
    I never heard that work was specific to gender, it was work and
    it had to be done. My mother stayed home to take of us, but we 
    were always told that it was a mutual decision. That type of 
    decision has be between the 2 people involved not according to
    social pressures. There were 2 boys and 2 girls we were all 
    treated the same, very unusual in the small town I'm from. 
    
    My son was bought with the values. I really get tired of hearing
    that boys are easier. Granted he will not come home pregnant, but
    I tried to teach him to respect every woman and to do his part to
    make sure that she did not get pregnant. 
    
    I think he has those values, he seems to be doing well.
    

    I think my father stuck to gender specific roles more than my mother
    did.  I can never remember my father doing anything that could be
    traditionally considered women's work.  He never cooked, washed
    clothes, ironed, cleaned the house, or spent much time with me and my
    brother when we were little.  But, in addition to doing all the
    traditional women's work, my mother always mowed the lawn, shoveled
    snow, kept a vegetable garden, and would do various small home repair
    type jobs.  My father always worked outside of the home and my mother
    never did.  I always felt that, to my father, it was a matter of pride
    to him that his wife never had to work outside of the home, as though
    he would have been ashamed of it if she did.  I don't know what he
    would have done if he had been married to a woman who had wanted to
    have a career of some sort - even teaching or nursing.  Or, maybe, he
    would have thought that would have been the only excuse for a wife to
    go out to work.  I think he had some sort of an old-fashioned idea that
    only drunks and lazy good for nothing types couldn't manage to support
    their families.  At least that's the impression I was given.  My father
    was older, born in 1901, so that's one reason for the type of ideas he
    held.  I think, for the most part, I grew up thinking of men and women
    as having very set gender based roles.  I didn't question it for years
    mainly because it seemed to take years for me to finally want to do
    something or behave in a way that women weren't expected to.  I now
    think it was a disadvantage for me to have been brought up in such a
    traditional way, totally unprepared for being an independent, single
    woman in the 80's and 90's.  Because of this I've brought up my
    daughter much differently.
    
    I think, looking back, what I resent the most about the way my parents
    treated us when we were kids is that there were certain things that
    nobody ever expected me to know how to do - like working on cars, or
    carpentry work, or anything to do with plumbing or electricity.  I was
    brought up to just believe that men took care of that stuff.  My father
    was a carpenter and it used to bother him tremendously that my brother
    had no interest in learning how to do carpentry, but it never occurred
    to my father to try to teach *me* anything.  I resent that so much now. 
    I mean, I have no interest in learning any of that stuff at this point,
    but maybe if somebody had tried to teach me that sort of think from the
    time I was a little kid I would have developed an interest.
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  re .7, Porter Shoe, in Milford, Mass?  Oh, God, that brings back
    horrible memories of a summer job that I stuck out for only 2 weeks
    back in high school!  What a sweatshop, what a hell-hole.
    

    Bubbah! (howdy stranger!)
    
    guess I have to plead guilty in raising my kids with some
    stereotypes...(you say you're not surprised??!!)
    
    I happen to like little boys looking like little boys. I don't buy
    my son pink shirts. He doesn't wear hair spray. He won't have an
    earing or wear his hair in a ponytail, at least not until he's
    18 years old...
    
    As for my daughter, I guess there aren't too many things that I won't
    let her do as far as appearance goes, or at least she hasn't come up
    with anything too wild yet. Purple hair is definetly OUT!
    Both my kids know that they can BE anything they want if they put their
    minds to it. I never teach "only men can do this or only women can do
    this", but I definetly draw the line at appearance!!
    
    So I'm old fashioned. I like the differances. I have always believed
    that there are BIRTH differances between men and women (TIME just did
    a big article saying that there is proof of that now), and I have
    always found it amusing that there is so much effort put into trying
    trying to turn humanity into a one-sex-species!  
    
    As far as whether you'd want your daughters to be in combat, 
    I think it only fair that if men can die on the front lines, then so
    should women have the same responsibilities in defending their
    country, so I would be very proud if my daughter decided to take up a
    spot on the front line, though I would rather she run for congress!!
    
    I think that in NOT teaching your kids equally how to run a house
    as how to replace the brake pads on the car, then you're short-changing
    them, male or female.. I think they need to know how to be independant
    first, and then work from there..
    
    cat
    
    
    

    
    	My mother was total house and my dad total work. Most of the people
    I lived around were the same. Stanley parties, etc. were typical of my
    neighborhood. It's funny, my father in law thought that my area of town
    was so bad, he wouldn't let his kids ride a bus through it....8^).
    
    	I do most of the laundry in my house, always have. Used to go to
    the laundramat every Wed. until we got a washer & dryer. My wife was
    home (running a day care) and got to do some of it but usually I did
    it. She cooked 99% of the time. She did the house keeping.
    
    	Now she is a full time manager at a large NE grocery chain. I still
    do most of the laundry, I do 90% of the cooking, my daughters (yeah)
    try to keep up with the housework. My wife has to take time to
    straighten everything out but overall roles have changed.

    	I'm an equalist. I don't believe that men or women are dominant.
    Tho marriage has taught me that being bigger and stronger is not always
    'righter'. I've taught my daughters that they can do anything they wish
    except play professional football in the NFL. 
    	
    	My son was playing with Legos the other day and one of them was
    deformed. My wife asked him what he was playing and he explained. When
    she asked him who the deformed figure was, he said....'the woman'. He
    didn't know why, that's just the way it was.....I told my wife that
    there were no females in his pirate set so it was only logical that the
    one different was a woman. We discouraged him from calling the deformed
    piece the woman and rather he called it a 'shot up guy'. He's nine....
    and the term different is being formulated at school. Little girls this
    and little boys that.....just the way it is. They sit, we stand...etc.
    
    Ken

><<< Note 725.17 by MCIS5::WOOLNER "Photographer is fuzzy, underdeveloped and dense" >>>
>                          -< what's a Stanley party? >-

A party where everyone stands around drinking screwdrivers and getting, errr,
hammered ?????? :-) :-)

Yes, I know... YOu saw that one coming....

    

I think he meant a gathering where everybody in the neighborhood got together
to work on somebody's big project; adding a deck or replacing a porch or
putting shelves in the garage...'Stanley' meaning, everybody brought their
tools along to help (Stanley being a particularly popular brandname for many
hand tools).  Kind of like a pioneer community raising a neighbor's barn,
'cause the neighbor would return the favor; and those kinds of ties build
a stronger community, or in Ken's case, neighborhood.

DougO

    Aha!  Thanks, you've made it *plane* now....
    
    I appreciate the Phillips of humor, too..
    
    More a "tap 'er where?" than a Tupperware, huh?
    
                                  (meanwhile, back at the wrench...)
    
    <|-}
    Leslie

    Stanley party?  My mom used to have those.  Stanley makes stuff like
    glass cleaner, floor wax, silver polish, etc, stuff for cleaning around
    the house.
    
    As a child I sat through many of those parties.  And Princess House and
    Tupperware, too.
    
    And recently, when cleaning my bumper, I grabbed some Stanley plastic
    cleaner, 20 years old, and it worked better than the STP stuff that
    had just run out.  Seems they made some pretty good stuff.

    re .15 Cat
    
    For the most part I completely agree with you Cat.  I think gender role
    differences ARE appropriate and an advantage to Society.  The catch is
    when people have values forced on them when it goes against their
    nature.  But I agree, little boys should be dressed like boys, girls
    should be dressed like girls and taught to behave gender appropriately.
    That does not mean that a boy who wants to sew or a girl who wants to
    play ball should be discouraged.  Whats wrong with two different sexes
    anyway?  To hear some people talk they would have a complete uni-sex
    culture.  All that does is confuse people.  The catch is the definition
    of 'gender appropriate'.  Most boys WILL act like boys and girls like
    girls whether we try and condition them or not.  Studies have been done
    on this and the studies find that girls tend to act in female ways and
    boys in male ways regardless of parential attempts to cross gender
    them.  With some digging I could find references to those studies.
    
    Jeff

    Re .22: Sigh. Here comes the "dress like boys/girls" thing again. That
    is so incredibly culture/locale/time-specific as to make very little
    sense to me. Sure, we may be more comfortable dressing as we see those
    around us do, but that doesn't make it any better for Society (or, if
    you think it does, please explain how). Heck, the only advantage I can
    see for Society regarding clothing styles is that, the more often they
    change, the more people have to be employed to make the new styles.
    And, by that logic, clothing for men _and_ women ought to incorporate
    every possible style, so as to maximize the job possibilities for the
    clothing industry.
    
    I don't disagree that there are gender-specific trends in behavior, but
    there's still no definitive proof as to how many of these are a result
    of upbringing and how many are innate. (And, since I don't think
    anybody is ready to raise some children in a completely a-cultural
    environment to see what would happen, we'll probably never know for
    sure.) What I don't understand is how it would be of value to society
    to have these trends be guidelines. Where _is_ it an advantage? I'm
    interested to know in what ways you think this is helpful.
    
    I certainly _don't_ want to enforce a world of unisex appearance and
    behavior, but people vary so much anyway I don't see that as much of a
    risk. It's just that any time one says, "Men should be men and women
    should be women," I have to ask, "But what do you _mean_? In this
    particular case, which behaviors are for men and which for women?
    And _why_?"
    
    -b

.23> ...we may be more comfortable dressing as we see those
.23> around us do, but that doesn't make it any better for Society.
    
    Perhaps it's called "traditional values"?  Remember?
    
    Bubba

    >Perhaps it's called "traditional values"?  Remember?

    How far back do you want to go?   What is the generational
    "cut off" point, beyond which the customs are *too* old-
    fashioned to maintain?

    The problem here (as in so many other areas) is a general
    intolerance on the part of those who favor tradition, for
    those who are or wish to be different.

    I can empathize with such intolerance because traditions
    invoke powerful feelings in most of us.  We don't want our
    customs to be lost in the generations to come.

    At the same time though, I think that its the values underneath
    the surface trappings that are most important.  What does it
    matter what we dress like if we still love our neighbors and
    contribute towards the betterment of society?  Were the founding
    fathers of the US, lesser men because they wore stockings and frilly
    blouses?   Were the "Rosey the riveter" types of WWII any less important
    or patriotic when they tossed aside their knee length skirts and donned
    overalls in the factories?

    Generally speaking I think we are preoccupied with the superficial.

    /Greg

.25> How far back do you want to go?   What is the generational
.25> "cut off" point, beyond which the customs are *too* old-
.25> fashioned to maintain?

If I could answer those questions I wouldn't be peddling computers
for Digital ... that's for sure.

There are times when I simply rebel at what appears to be a conscious
effort to "normalize" any and every thing - anything that remotely
resembles what is commonly called "traditional" values is scoffed at.

There are some traditional values which may be worth maintaining?

Bubba

    I believe there _are_ values worth maintaining; I just don't believe
    they involve fashion.
    
    But "boys should be boys" and other such tautologies tick me off
    because, of themselves, they don't _say_ anything. I mean, what else
    could boys possibly be? Any trait I can think of that would make me
    think less of a male-type person would make me think less of a
    female-type person, too, so it's a trait that makes them less...
    perfect, not less "boy" or less "girl".
    
    That's how I see it, anyway. It does *not* mean that I want people to
    all act and dress exactly alike, far from it; and there's certainly no
    fear of that happening any time soon. I'd just like it if people could
    be freer to discover their own preferences without being told that it
    makes them less of whatever it is that they are.
    
    -b

    RE: .27
    
    Ditto.

    Let me try and re-phrase "boys should be boys and girls girls"  I am
    not saying each person should dress the same or be exactly the same.
    What is wrong with pride in being what one is.... a man, a woman, a
    boy or a girl, and identifying with the TYPICAL characteristics usually
    associated with ones gender and age?  I am NOT saying there can be no
    variation from the norm or personal preferences.  I see many people
    trying to uni sex Society.  People are flapping around trying to get 
    ahold of something to identify with and be proud of.  There used to be
    SOME gender related 'safe havens'.  Such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts
    etc.  Now even organizations which were founded to serve specific
    genders (Boys' Club, Girls Clubs) must be 'uni sex'.  Kids, boys and
    girls... IMO need a few areas where boys are off limits or girls are
    off limits... now 'nothing' seems to be sacred anymore.  Mens Clubs are
    getting sued for descrimination etc.  (No, I am not a member of ANY
    gender specific organizations).  I think the balance has gone too far
    the other way... 
    
    Jeff 

> effort to "normalize" any and every thing - anything that remotely
    
    I'm all for men being macho if they want to be.  And women being macho,
    too.  And men who dress macho (cf. the Castro) not talking or acting
    macho.  And so on.  But appealing to macho on the basis of its being
    "traditional" -- how is that different from trying to "normalize" men? 
    
    You seem to be aghast at possible takeover by some gray androgynous
    template.  Not only don't I see that as a real threat, I don't see a
    real stroke for individuality in having only TWO gray templates, one
    for men and one for women. 
    
    Why not let the traditional values which are worth maintaining maintain
    themselves, on the basis of their value?
    
    Ray

    re .30, for some reason that seems to be too threatening for most
    people.  Many people seem to feel most comfortable when things stay the
    same (just like they was in their grandpappy's day).  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .31   Right.  Of course they usually mythologize their grandpappy's 
    day, in effect, pining for a return to the way things never really 
    were at all.
    
    /Greg

While I was reading the first several replies, I found myself wondering where
and when the authors grew up.

When I was five, in 1950, I was growing up in a middle-middle class family 
in a small town in Illinois.

Men and women could hold any kind of jobs, although male dancers were 
probably sissies.

Men did not cook, except outdoors.  Men did not help with housework, although
I had to help with the dishes.  

The most important thing in a man's life was to be a man.  Men did not cry,
or show feelings, or have feelings, or apologize.  Men would always choose 
independence over connection.  Men liked to watch the Fiday Night Fights.
Men did not wear long hair or sideburns or fancy clothes.

Most of this I got from my dad, but school and movies and books all made their
own contribution.

When I was about 10 I started giving my dad a hard time about the more 
superficial stuff in the paragraphs above, like long hair and boxing.

It was not until my mid-40s that I realized how much I had internalized 
all the deeper stuff and never really examined it.

I don't have children.