Conference quark::mennotes-v1

 A nightmare of the highest order...

    RE: .0  Anon
    
    A nightmare, to be sure.
    
    (Can I offer two suggestions, tho, about a side-issue you mentioned?
    Pls have another HIV test 6 months after the first one - it will insure
    that you are ok, since it takes time for the virus to be detectable.
    Also, pls, pls, pls use a condem in the meantime - and all the time,
    hereafter, if you are with women whose HIV and/or birth control status
    is unknown to you.  I'm sure the last thing you want, aside from
    getting HIV, is to unwittingly pass it on to others before you have
    discovered that you have it, if such a thing ever happens to you, God
    forbid.)
    
    As for the situation with the pregnancy - it sounds as though the woman
    is going back on her original statement of not needing help from you,
    and I doubt that her requests/demands will stop anytime soon.  Babies
    cost even MORE after they are born, after all.
    
    If she wants help from you, insist that she be willing to purchase
    second hand baby items.  Babies grow so fast, expensive items that
    she purchases will last the baby a matter of weeks (in some cases.)
    New clothes aren't very practical even for couples with decent
    incomes.
    
    Did you mention possible other men in her life when she got pregnant?
    If so, insist that you will need bloodtest verification of fatherhood
    at the time of birth.  And, if you can afford it at all, seek the
    advice of a lawyer about your future obligations.
    
    Best wishes.

    P.S. When I was a single-expectant-Mom, it took me less than $20 to
    set up for the arrival of the baby.  (In pounds, that's what?  Less
    than 10 pounds?)
    
    I bought a second-hand bassinette for $5, an "infant seat" (for the
    home and car) second-hand for another $5.  And I bought a basket
    full of second-hand baby clothes for about $4.  I bought a couple
    of new "undershirts" for a few dollars more at a discount dept.
    store.
    
    I can't imagine what she needs 1000 pounds for (unless she is planning 
    an entire new baby layette with fancy furniture and matching wallpaper,
    or something.)  Such things aren't necessary for a new baby - nice,
    but not required.

Sounds to me like you have both done some very *DUMB* things...to put it 
mildly. (I Don't mean that vindictively, but I suspect you are maturing 
quite rapidly these days....)

Last reply had some good ideas, sounds like she is deciding to drain you 
dry since you have states some responsibility for the child. Be sure you 
are the father, continue to be tested for HIV, and be prepared to fight 
this hard. Her parents (through her) may decide to drag you into court for 
whatever they can get. Do you have friends who know her statements around 
wnating/not wanting a baby, birth control, or any other pertinent facts? 
You will want to write up,IN DETAIL!) what happened and when and where, who 
said what, and what the situation was. That will stand up in court better 
than your memory. Once written down, you have a clear statement as to facts 
as you remember them, and it is easier to defend yourself. She will be going 
on memories of what you said, and they are not as accurate.....a laywer may 
pick her apart if needed. 

If it never goes to court, then you have a detailed record of how not to 
act in the future.....

    Vic H

    I think this story demonstrates one important lesson - if you're
    having sex and YOU don't want children, then it's YOUR responsibility
    to make sure that none result.  (This goes for both men and women.)
    Assuming that your partner has "taken precautions" is a very risky
    gamble, as the author of the base note is now finding out.
    
    And in this day of HIV and other sexually transmissible illnesses,
    a condom should be used even if contraception is being handled
    through other means.  (I saw in the paper yesterday a description
    of a new "female condom" which is expected to be available shortly -
    this gives women the ability to protect themselves which they
    haven't had before.)
    
    Nobody thinks it will happen to them - until it does - and then it's
    too late.
    
    					Steve

    May I suggest - gently - that people replying to this noter go easy on
    the moralising about what has happened.
    
    He wants help  - not continual critical comments about how silly he has
    been.
    
    He cannot turn the clock back so lets try and offer constructive
    comments to deal with the situation that *has* happened, rather than
    providing a list of things to do/not to do next time.
    
    It's all good advice, but I am not sure he wants to hear it here.
    
    andy
      
    

    
    
    I agree with the previous noters concerning getting the tests
    to see if the baby is really yours. She may say that you are the
    only one, but then she is constantly changing her mind about alot
    of things. Talk to a lawyer to find out exactly what your rights
    and her rights are..... I don't think she is leaving you any other
    choice.
    
    If you are the father, why not buy the baby things (second hand)
    yourself. I know it is nice to have all new things, but babies
    grow happy on love not on what the nursery looks like. 
    
    Good Luck.......
    
    

    I donno. It seems one of those, 'Its my body' games. As in lets discuss
    the abortion route. Vs making you responsible for something for the
    next 18 years. I think that I would start making some sort of
    communications with a lawyer about now and get her to have test to see
    if both are true. If not, have fun relax. If both are true, in the
    states you first recourse is that if she knowlingly has HIV and doesnt
    tell you you can sue her for not. Or "Intentional Effliction of
    Emotional Diress". Seeing that there is so far no harm to you. Second,
    insofar as the baby act is going. Pehaps you should start fighting over
    custody of it and force her hand to either pay like hell for it. Or now
    pay like hell not to have it.

Unfortunately, there isn't an awful lot that the basenote author can do other
than what has already been suggested.  Certainly insist on paternity testing,
don't accede to unreasonable demands for money, talk to a lawyer.  But unless
paternity can be disproven, the author is in for many years of added
responsibility, just like any parent.

There's no magic solution.

			Steve

    re.9
    Ditto!
    
    -j

    	Definitely buy the clothes and other items yourself. It has several
    benefits.
    
    1) If she is as irresponsible as it sounds she might be then any money
    supplied might not be spent on the baby.
    
    2) If it really does cost �1000 then you will know this, and will not
    feel suspicious and cheated. If you can get everything required for
    less money then you have saved yourself something.
    
    3) Unless you intend to entirely drop out of their lives now is a good
    time to get her used to the idea that you will be buying things for the
    baby and taking a serious part in its upbringing.
    
    	And don't take the "all new" idea seriously. Our three kids were
    mostly brought up on home knitting and sewing, hand-me-downs swapping
    with cousins of different ages, and jumble sales. It sounds as if you
    can't afford to do much better than we did.

    I agree with most replies here.  Before I'd give any money or goods,
    though, I'd want to have the paternity blood test results (wonder how
    much DNA testing would cost?).
    
    Good luck on your 6-month HIV test (*please* have one).
    
    Rathole on the "female condom"--FWIW, it's expected to cost 4x what the
    male condom costs (per CBS evening news, I think).  Aaarrghh!  Though I
    don't really see the logic in the pitch of "now women can protect
    themselves; they haven't had protection up to now."  C'mon!  We can buy
    male condoms!  If the male partner du jour refuses to use it.... how
    likely is it that he'll "allow" you to use a female one (and how likely
    is it that you'll even want to continue the activity with this
    neanderthal)?
    
    Leslie

    Forgot to say, the basenoter might want to suggest that releasing the
    baby for adoption is worth considering.
    
    L>W>

    
    
    Sorry to hear of your problems.  I would suggest both of you 
    sitting down with both sets of parents as well.  Hammer out 
    whether or not she actually plans on continuing the pregnancy.
    That right there seems to be a little uncertain from you note.
    
    Please heed the warnings on the testing for aids as well as
    for paternity.  
    
    Once the decision is made as to whether or not the pregnancy
    will continue then you have three options:  abortion, adoption,
    or you helping to support the child (emotionally, and financially).
    I would suggest getting legal advice now.  If she is set on having
    the child and raising it herself, get an agreement drawn up now
    as to EXACTLY what amount you would be willing (be reasonable) to
    give her to help support the child.  I would suggest getting a
    copy of the guidelines your jurisdiction uses to figure out these
    amounts so you can have a realistic expectation of what they
    will require of you if the child is yours.  Face it now, no
    matter what you feel you can afford doesnt count.  If the court
    has a formula, you are going to have to pay what they tell you
    to regardless of whether or not  you can afford to pay it.
    
    If you plan on being an active participant in this child's life,
    draw up a custody/visitation schedule before the baby is born.
    Again seek legal advice as to what you can reasonably expect to
    get.  At least this will show her that you plan on being a part
    of this picture for the child's sake.
    
    

    Let her have an HIV test done too, since she's been sleeping around
    without protection - HIV positive women who are pregnant are strongly
    suggested to have an abortion, for different reasons.
    
    If she's okay, the baby will be okay too. And if she will keep it,
    there is nothing you can do against it - you would just harm the baby 
    too. And if the paternity test indicates you are the father, I
    suggest you better work out a different state of mind. Because it is
    your seed, and you & her are responsible for the situation. Don't make
    the baby suffer, by going to court and trying to save money. Accept it
    as something that has nothing to do with its mother, but an individual
    person, that it is. And do everything in your might - do make life good
    for it. Because it is here now and you have to deal with reality now.
    If you want to make up your mistake, love the baby now - you don't have
    to be with the mother to love your kid. 
    Money is not the problem right now, because if you love someone, you
    will be able to shorten your needs in a sense of concentrating on that
    what is important : Life....food, clothes , shelter... until you are
    better off. 
    Sooner or later you'll come to this conclusion by yourself (I hope so).
    I wish you a lot of strenght, that you sure will need and also that
    love may conquer your grief and that you can accept what is not anymore
    to change.
    S.
    

    
    Your note has been on my mind recently - something here just doesn't
    hang together for me. So at the risk of being pedantic, and repeating
    a few things, I'm going to dissect away and try and work out what's
    nagging at me about this picture...
    
>	As a rebound reaction to the split between me & my girlfriend I started
>to sleep around and tried to start a new relationship with someone
>    .... - consequently I found myself sleeping with various girls.

    I can understand why you might have reacted like this to your
    circumstances - it's not a "solution" or even positive action, but
    at least you seem to have some insight into your own feelings
    and what you were really needing as opposed to what you went after...
    Whatever the outcome of this situation your "rebound" feelings
    probably won't go away for a while, plus you have a lot of
    stress around money, HIV, this pregnancy business.
    Why not take good care of yourself and go to a counsellor?
    Just talk it all over. It'll help you hold it together and make
    some sane decisions.
     
    >As one of the crisis points" of late, one of the girls I had slept
>with found out she was HIV+.... 
    
    As others have said, get retested. And keep getting retested for
    as long as the specilist staff think is reasonable.
    Meanwhile, get into condoms (these are NOT OPTIONAL).
    And stay honest with any other partners about your possible HIV
    status...
             
 >	The time when we had sex was a premeditated action, we did have sex
>after the pub but I did not come then, the next day the notion of intercourse
>was, as I said, premeditated and Judy even took a bath to freshen up first.
    
A small point about birth control:- withdrawal before you come is not
    effective as a method of birth control.
    Get real about this, whatever else happens.
    
>After we started petting and kissing I was actively encouraged to have sex. At
>no time before, during or after this was contraception mentioned, and her
>manner led me to believe 100% that she was on the pill.

    Well, guess you've learned about that now.
    Assume nothing.
    If she doesn't mention it, you should. It's a joint act y'know...
    It needn't ruin the atmosphere (contrary to myth) and most women I 
    know would think highly of you for having bothered to ask.
    
>	What also seemed odd was that, after intercourse, whilst walking into
>town Judy suddenly told me that she had had an abortion before, and that it
>had hurt her incredibly emotionally - I wondered then why she had suddenly
>mentioned this. She also said that if the same thing happened again she could
>not do the same thing...

    This is where I started to feel really uncomfortable.
    
    This may sound really callous but basically I feel like you were 
    being set up for the news that was going to come later....sort of 
    emotional preparation. Which means that she may have already been
    pregnant and was looking for a "willing" father...
    
    >	When she phoned me she said "I hope you don't think I have trapped you
>or anything" - again, an odd thing to say I thought. 
    
    Sounds like she was preempting the expected male reaction in such
    a situation - many men accuse women who get pregnant (deliberately
    or otherwise) of trying to trap them into a commitment they wouldn't
    freely make.
    However, it shows that she's done more emotional preparation around
    your possible reaction and how to manipulate that.
    
    >She did say at that time
>that she expected nothing at all from me, and that she would assume the burden,
    
Well fine. If she meant that and had gone on to make her own decision on
    her own that's one thing - changing her mind and increasing demands
    for money doesn't hang together with the above statement.
                                                             
>    - she seemed to swing between wanting/not wanting to have the baby. 
>    Therefore I suggested to her that her best bet would be to get 
>    *professional* counselling to help her decide for
>sure, *exactly* what to do.
    
    Good suggestion. Her resistance to counselling is not, I think,
    realistic - it's pretty easy to get, and you DON'T need a
    referral from a doctor.
    
    > Furthermore, she has now
>worked out that getting items for the baby will cost around 1000 pounds!
    
    Has she told you *exactly* what she'd be getting for all this money?
                                                                       
    > She
>claimed that the *minimum* figure to be provided, when a man is taken to court
>in such cases is 30 pounds a week
    
    Ah - veiled legal "threats" huh?
    
    I hate to say this but I feel that you're being somehow "blackmailed".
    Emotional "hints" around abortion beforehand, a changing story,
    refusal to seek help, a completely irresponsible sex life (hers)
    and ever-escalating monetary demands sound like an almost
    professional case of emotional and financial blackmail to me.
    
    Are you sure she's pregnant?
    Are you sure you're the father?
    How far along in the pregnancy is she?
    
    I know you feel your problem is a monetary one but until these
    facts have been firmly established then you can't move on to a
    solution of any kind. Go along to her doctor with her and discuss
    the pregnancy - get a blood test run - and if she's resistant
    to either of these things I feel it would be fair for you to refuse
    to discuss financial support further until you know the facts.
    Please update us on what's happening....

    'gail
             
    

    Basenoter, I am assuming you are from the UK...
    
    If so, get yourself down to the Citizen's advice bureau ASAP. They can
    provide you with basic legal guidelines to clarify your position, and
    will also refer you to an appropriate solicitor if it is going to go
    that far.
    
    The 1000 pounds figure you were given is bullsh*t - I am pregnant at
    the moment, and although we have been lucky with hand-me-downs, the
    money we have spent barely touches 300 pounds. It is also not your sole
    responsibility to provide these things; SHE has made the choice to
    continue the pregnancy and to take responsibility for the child. Also,
    please don't spend any money until (like the other noters suggest)
    paternity has been proved. It sounds to me from what you say in the
    basenote that it was highly likely she was pregnant before you even
    came on the scene. Have you checked back from the date she is due to
    see if the date of conception more or less tallies ? 
    
    I'm sorry if I seem to be repeating a lot of what other noters have
    already said, but there is a lot of good advice in here. I totally
    sympathise with the sh*tty situation you have found yourself in, and
    hope you can resolve it without too much pain.

I think you should be tested !  You might not even be the father !  Especially
if she has been sleeping with others.  She's proably just picking on you and
saying that your the one !  After all she wasn't using any kind of control for
a long time & been with others !!

Good luck !

S.

    I wonder whatever happened to him....
    
    and her
    
    Lorna