Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Interesting scheme. It includes a hint that there will be "another
    time," but without committing to it...
    
    I'm most comfortable with just splitting the check, which I tend to
    assume is the default financial arrangement unless the invitation was
    _explicitly_ "let me buy you dinner". (Or unless I did the inviting, in
    which case I'll offer to pay the whole tab.) If, as I reach for my
    wallet, my companion says, "No, no, allow me," I generally accept with
    thanks, but in that case I'll plan on reciprocating. Thus, I'd have no
    problem at all with the scheme you outline in .0. Um... well, except
    for the part about making notes as to whose turn it was. That seems a
    little too bean-counter-ish or compulsive or something. I agree it's
    probably tidier than hissing, "No, it's _your_ turn, remember? I paid
    at Burger King last Tuesday," under your breath while the waitron
    stands there tapping the charge-card plate, but it just ain't...
    _social_. So, if you want to do it, be discreet about it. ;-)
    
    -b

    Depends on the circumstances, but isn't that the way it always is.
    
    When I initiate, I pay.  When he initiates, I do not assume he pays,
    unless the invitation has been extended to do so.  With previous
    relationships, depending on 'where' we were in the relationship,
    sometimes he would pay, sometimes I would pay, sometimes we'd scrounge
    together to come up with money for the pizza. :-)
    
    No, I don't think it is wrong as such to want to share the expenses.
    But, I'm also one of those 'old-fashion' gals that likes to have the
    door held open for me, even if it is my treat. :-)
    
    Shilah

    Shilah I couldn't agree with you more.  You said it beautifully.
    
    Karen

    I prefer alternating bills, rather than splitting them.
    
    Or sometimes, one will pick up the dinner, one the wine and the
    tip, it's a particularly expensive place.
    
    It's best to come prepared to pay for the entire thing, though,
    just in case.

    Answering only the topic title, because it's a female dominated society
    we live in.
    
    			Alfred

    .2 Shilah
    
    You may well be an exception, but I think the typical male experience
    is that HE takes the initiative about 95% of the time, which makes your
    "Whoever initiates pays" rule dramatically unfair. It also seems like
    your heaping abuse on top of pain. Not only does the guy have to put
    his ego out there, taking that initative 95% of the time; if his
    initiative succeeds, then he is "rewarded" with the full tab! If you
    are interested in making connections, overcoming loneliness, getting
    people together, then a more appropriate rule would be "Whoever gets
    asked pays"! Then there would be an economic incentive to pick up the
    phone!

    Depends on who has more $$. If I'm seeing someone who makes very little
    $$, it doesn't make sense that we stay in all the time because she
    can't afford a half share, so I pay more. The occasional treat from the
    other person is welcome, though.
    
    If we both make a reasonable amount, I prefer the make it even out over
    time approach to the one that involves dividing every bill by two.
    
    I look back with nostalgia to the days when I was seeing someone who
    made a lot more than me and paid most of the time...
    
    	Andrew.
    

    I believe that the greatest sin a salesman can perpetuate is that of
    false expectations.  This *does* carry over to my personal life.  I
    have no reservations about asking someone to dinner and say "my treat"
    (and insist on it at times) if I want it to be ... or say "your treat,
    my treat or Dutch - makes no difference to me".

    I freely admit to being different with a male guest and a female guest. 
    
    I guess that I'm from the old_outdated_male_pig school and when I take
    a female_lady_wimmin out to dinner I always get the check .. why? 
    BECAUSE I WANT TO!  I have yet to have one word of dissension from my
    female guest ... then again I don't date the true feminist type of
    female.

    Bubba

re: .6
    
�    You may well be an exception, but I think the typical male experience
�    is that HE takes the initiative about 95% of the time, which makes your
�    "Whoever initiates pays" rule dramatically unfair.

    Hoyt, I didn't state that it was a rule.  In fact, I stated that if HE
    initiated, I still did NOT assume that he was paying, unless it was
    perfectly clear.
      
    I can give you a very specific example of this.  When I was visiting
    Boston (I live on the West Coast), a gentleman invited me out for an
    evening. I did NOT assume he was paying.  So when he came to pick me up
    at the hotel, the subject came up of "Where would you like to go to
    eat?"  I said, "Someplace it isn't going to cost me more than $20
    hopefully"...he said that wasn't necessary it was his treat.  Still I
    didn't drop it there...I paid for parking that evening in Boston, as
    well as drinks at the club we went to.  So see, my rule, is NOT
    "Whoever initiates pays".

�    It also seems like
�    your heaping abuse on top of pain. Not only does the guy have to put
�    his ego out there, taking that initative 95% of the time; if his
�    initiative succeeds, then he is "rewarded" with the full tab! If you
�    are interested in making connections, overcoming loneliness, getting
�    people together, then a more appropriate rule would be "Whoever gets
�    asked pays"! Then there would be an economic incentive to pick up the
�    phone!

    It's not fair of you to point fingers until you know the whole story,
    or the person.  I know it takes a great deal of courage to ask someone
    out, and I don't expect that person to be 'rewarded' with the tab. 
    Perhaps, as you mentioned earlier, I am the exception.  So, next time
    I'm in your area, wanna do lunch?  MY TREAT.
    
    Shilah
    

    re .8, in situations like this (dining out) I love MCP's, so you might
    not even get complaints from some women who are often considered to be
    feminists.  :-)  (And, it's not just that I want to be a feminist when
    it suits my best interests and not when it doesn't.  It's more that I
    don't make much money and if a man I like enjoys my company enough to 
    want to treat me to a meal in a fancy restaurant, it makes me feel
    good, and I don't see anything wrong with accepting.)
    
    re .0, seriously, though, my major complaint with your tactic is that
    you seem to keep score of who pays the most often.  This seems to
    indicate that you are preoccupied with making sure that nobody gets one
    more thing from you than you get from them.  I have been in a
    relationship like this in the past and find that such nit-picking and
    keeping score can become extremely tiresome.  If I  notice, after some
    time in a friendship or relationship,  that I seem to be the one who
    usually dishes out the cash, then I'll say something.  But, I'd rather
    give the other person the benefit of the doubt to begin with, rather
    than assume that every person is out to use me.  That seems a bitter
    attitude to me.
    
    In my real life, I have 3 male friends that I see on a regular basis. 
    Two of these men have jobs where they earn from 3 to 4 times my salary. 
    They both enjoy my company and seem to enjoy taking me out to eat in
    nice places, and I enjoy their company and enjoy being taken out to
    places I can't afford to go to on my own.  Everybody seems happy with
    this, 
    
    On the other hand, my third male friend has been having consistent
    money problems of his own since I've known him (due to his divorce
    settlement) and he and I usually go dutch, and once in awhile I even
    treat, and sometimes he does.  But, he and I never get to go to the
    more expensive places that my other two friends take me because neither
    one of us can afford it.
    
    If I had more money or if my closest male friends where poorer, I'm
    sure I'd feel differently.  But, when I'm out with a guy, and we both
    know that he makes 3 or 4 times my pay, I have no qualms about having
    him treat, especially since I'm really there because I like the guy and
    enjoy his company, not for a free meal - that's just an added benefit
    to being close friends with two highly intelligent, interesting,
    well-educated men.
    
    Lorna
    
    the one w 

    
    If I invite, I pay.
    
    Alternating paying if you are dining out together several times is nice
    also.
    
    If he invites, I may ask if he's paying at some point, but will always
    bring enough to split the bill if he wishes to do that at that point.
    
    Each paying our own way is always an option.
    
    If they make substantially less than I do I will often pay whoever
    invited.  If they make substantially more than I do, I may request they
    pay if it is a particularly expensive restaurant, or may request we go
    to a less expensive restaurant if they wish to split the bill or expect
    me to pay.
    
    -Jody
    

    Once upon a time I was working on a demo for a customer. There were
    4 of us involved. Three men and the salesperson who was a woman. When
    lunch came we went out to eat and of course the salesperson paid. One
    of the men, a real southern gentleman asked the other two of us if it
    bothered us that the woman picked up the check. We looked at him like
    he had three heads and said "No, the it's the salesperson's job to pick
    up the check" and it didn't matter one bit that she was a woman. But
    of course he was so brainwashed that men should pay that it was hard
    for him to relate to.

    			Alfred

>If you
>    are interested in making connections, overcoming loneliness, getting
>    people together, then a more appropriate rule would be "Whoever gets
>    asked pays"! Then there would be an economic incentive to pick up the
>    phone!

 Do you really want an economic incentive to decline the date?

    
    Years ago, I was really big on going dutch. A few years ago, one of my
    older sisters told me to drop it, said it was tacky. In some ways I
    agree. I believe in reciprocation. And when I take someone out, I pay.
    If I say "let's hang out", I go dutch. If I'm asked out, I usually pay
    half as a means of establishing independence and removing any sense of
    obligation. If I let him treat, in my mind, I owe him. So, I usually
    reciprocate by picking up the tab for a movie or a show or by fixing
    dinner or having him over. 
    
    Please keep in mind, fixing an elegant dinner at home has the same
    time/effort/cost equivalence as going out. At least it does when *I* do
    it. With that in mind, I'd say that I typically "treat" 50% of the
    time.

    
   >> Does "taking turns" seem too wierd? Fair? Uncouth? Politically correct? 
    
    8^)

    Hoyt, my friend, in my opinion it lacks charm.  That's all.
    If you're not interested in begin charming (and I know that's not
    the case), keep writing it down in your little book.

    Diane (who treats at least 50% of the time, sans book)

    Show me a woman that will pick up the tab on the first date
    and I will show you a goddess. ;)
    
    It may happen somewhere but I have yet to see it. Maybe after the
    2nd or 3rd date the woman will offer to pay. I'm sure it just depends
    on the woman.
    
    
    		-Jim-

    re .16, show me a woman who will pick up the tab on a first date and
    I'll show you a desperate, lonely woman, with a high-paying job!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
    so what the hey, I guess I've been a desperately lonely highly-paid
    goddess at times.....
    
    -Jody

    Re .16, .17: Or a woman who asked the person out. Or who has an expense
    account. [Or whose date discovered that he'd left his wallet in his
    other pants. ;-)]
    
    Well, gosh, it looks like there's no clear win for Hoyt, is there. If
    he offers to pay all the time, he goes broke, _and_ antagonizes that
    percentage of his dates who find it patronizing. If he offers to take
    turns, he risks being thought stingy; if he offers to split the bill,
    he may be thought tacky. If he waits for somebody to ask him out, he
    may run up a lengthy video-rental bill. 
    
    I guess the absolute safest, most-likely-to-minimize-rejection
    technique *for a first date* is for the inviter to expect to pay the
    whole tab. (I would hope that people who like each other well enough to
    have a second date would be able to work out little details like where
    to go and who should pay what... And if they can't, I'd consider it a
    lesson well learned.)
    
    All this talk about fiscal accountability is making me peevish. Heck,
    if you see somebody you want to get to know better, just go _talk_ to
    them...
    
    -b

    re.17
    
    She wouldn't be lonely for long.
    
    	-Jim-

    re .18, maybe so.  I've certainly been desperately lonely at times but
    still can't afford to take men out to dinner in really nice
    restaurants.  Somehow McDonald's just doesn't seem to cut it for a
    first date.  
    
    re 19, I would think it would depend on the woman, wouldn't it, or
    would you go out with anybody who would offer you a free meal?
    
    Lorna
    

    re.21
    
    I'd go out with any woman that had the courage to ask me out. There
    are even less of them then woman that will pay for the first date. :)
    
    
    			-Jim-

    
    When he asks me out for a dinner date- he pays.  When I ask him- I
    pay.   This ties in with Jim's "if any woman has the courage to ask
    me out"---same goes for men.  Men don't ask me out, since I usually
    initiate a date sequence, I pay for the first date (entire evening),
    along with flowers or some other token to let them know I think they're
    special.
    
    Hoyt- It sounds like someone has taken advantage of your financially
    and left you with a sour taste in your mouth.  There are
    people who will/do love you for who *you* are, and wouldn't care if you
    were penniless.  From what I've read in these files you have a lot to
    offer.   If you're skeptical, I'd recommend impressing your first dates
    with walks in the park and conversation.
    
    Tami
                                            

    Some men play hard to get, I play hard to want.  :^)

    So Lorna, where are those desperate, lonely, rich women?

    Whoever feels richest pays.  If we're at about the same level, I like
    alternating 'cause I'm terrible at arithmetic and 'cause it's nice to
    assume another get-together.
    
    (By the way, this is for get-togethers with friends of either sex.)
    
    Ray

    re .24, *I* don't know where they are!  They're not contacting me!
    (since I'm a straight woman)  However, if I do run into any, I'll pass
    along your name (and node, if applicable.)  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

>    Some men play hard to get, I play hard to want.  :^)

 Ditto. ;^)

    Depends on the people.
    
    If I invited a woman on a date, I always paid, I did the inviting.  It 
    was what I was used to, I never gave it a second thought.  When my
    fiance and I started dating, she was uncomfortable with that, though
    she didn't say anything at first.  When we started to spend more time
    planning things together, it was important to her that we split the
    cost.  Then she found she couldn't help trying to keep track of what
    we were spending.  It was important to her that we split things evenly,
    but she felt like she was thinking about it too much.  Our solution was
    for each of us to put aside 20.00 a week in an envelope.  If we don't
    use it, it accumulates, if we do go out, we bring the envelope and pay
    out of it.  It's worked very well for us.
    

    
    I usually pay for everything I initiate (meals,concert tickets,etc.)
    and split what is mutually agreed upon. I make 3 or 4 times what the
    women I've been dating usually make so I try to make it clear early
    on that if I suggest something that is expensive, they shouldn't be
    worrying about the cost. It gets a little gray if I know she doesn't
    have any money and she begins to suggest doing some expensive things;
    then I start to feel a little taken advantage of but that's only
    happened a couple times and those relationships didn't survive through
    the times when I just feel like staying in and watching a movie.
    
    I'm traditional in that I don't usually expect a woman to pick up a tab
    completely.
    
    
    

    re .28
    
    That is a *great* idea.  I think I'll use it in the future.  Thanks.
    
    Karen

  I don't know about desperate, but I've been known to offer to pay on a first
  date. The problem I've run into, is, some of those men settled down into
  this nice little niche, and I ended up always paying! ('; This happens a lot
  with friends I've had too. Hmmmm, they must think I'm rich or something (I
  wish I were [then again, don't we all]).

  For me, money was not the *big* thing, it's whether I had a nice time or not.
  Paying was kind of a nice way to remove (in my mind) any feelings of
  obligation, and... I never had to worry if what I was ordering cost *too*
  much (-:

  iks, michelle

  ps., I've been known to ask men out too. I figure, they've sweated it for
       years (taking the chance that she might say 'no'), so, why not? Haven't
       been turned down yet (guess I'm lucky (^: )

    
>    re .18, maybe so.  I've certainly been desperately lonely at times but
>    still can't afford to take men out to dinner in really nice
>    restaurants.  Somehow McDonald's just doesn't seem to cut it for a
>    first date.  

    Picnics however do make great first dates and tend to be less
    expensive. My first date with the woman now my wife was a picnic that
    she invited me on.

    		Alfred

    re .32, that's an idea.  All things considered, though, I still think
    I'd rather have the guy take me out to an expensive restaurant.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .34, oh, no!  Really it wasn't.  It was more along the lines of a
    semi-humorous/semi-rude comeback!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    This is interesting....
    
    The last guy I dated was an artist who made about half of what I do
    so we ate at home a lot (he liked to cook).  When we went out, I
    usually paid.
    
    The guy I'm dating now probably makes two or three times what I do.
    We've been alternating with paying the check but I'm concerned about 
    how to work this as time goes on because he does seem to prefer "nicer" 
    restaraunts and I doubt I'll be able to afford to continue paying every 
    other check.  I don't know if it is a help or a hindrance that there's no 
    tradition to fall back on here either.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    /Greg

    Greg-
    
    How long have you been dating?  I would suggest just being open 
    with him about the finances.  Compromise on the "level" restaurants
    you go to.  Then, for a special occasion (IE: when you want to do
    something extra nice for him), you splurge on the nicer place since
    you know that will please him.
    
    CK

    Any time I find myself in a (potential) position of possibly picking up
    the tab - in a place which is much to expensive for my wallet - I have
    absolutely no reservations about saying "That's a little expensive for
    my budget" ... I most assuredly have done it before (there are some
    *very* expensive eating places in the Los Angeles area) and will most
    assuredly do it again.

    There's nothing wrong with a little old fashioned honesty.

    Bubba

    PS - /Greg, the next time we go to the "Country Gourmet" in Merrimack,
        it's your turn to pick up the tab, it's been nearly two years
        and you should have been able to save enough money by now. :-)

    Mike
    
    I think that Lorna has established her own domain quite independantly
    of yours.
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    And anyway, Mike, she did say "*semi*-humourous/*semi*-rude".
    
    Kris

    RE: .37 (CK?)
    
    Thanks - that's not a bad idea.  We've only been seeing each other
    for a short while so it hasn't become an issue.  I want to avoid it
    becoming an issue.
    
    RE: Jerry - it isn't that I am being dishonest with him.  It hasn't
    come up.  It hasn't been a problem up till now but I can forsee it
    possibly becoming a problem.  That's all...
    
    Oh - I'll be glad to pick up the tab next time.  The "Country Gourmet"
    is a bit out of the way for both of us though.  Anyplace in central
    MA. you'd like to try?
    
    /Greg
    

 yeah, The Pillar House. :-)

.42> Oh - I'll be glad to pick up the tab next time.  The "Country Gourmet"
.42> is a bit out of the way for both of us though.  Anyplace in central
.42> MA. you'd like to try?

Not exactly "central" ... we'll meet at Anthony's Pier Four ... the
Doctah will be joining us ... Thanks!  (Any other MENNOTErs that
would like to join in ... SCHULER is picking up the tab at Anthony's!)

Now, if anyone sees me at Anthony's, during DECworld, in the presence of
two very good looking female_lady_wimmins ... PLEASE watch your language
... they are customers.

Bubba

>Now, if anyone sees me at Anthony's, during DECworld, in the presence of
>two very good looking female_lady_wimmins ... PLEASE watch your language
>... they are customers.
    
    Need help selling anything, Bubba?
    
    Kris

    > Need help selling anything, Bubba?
    
    > Kris
    
    If you think about it, Kris has hit upon a pretty good idea...  How
    could Bubba leverage a sale via an "informal" get-together at
    Anthony's?  It would/could be like Mennoters becomming a part of
    Bubba's sales team.  Depending upon the customer, how could Bubba prep
    the Mennoters who will be meeting him at Anthony's?  Bubba better lead
    the  brainstorming on this...

.46> Depending upon the customer, how could Bubba prep
.46> the Mennoters who will be meeting him at Anthony's?

I get along quite well with my customers ... and want to keep it that
way ... 

Discussions of sex, politics, religion .. is out of the question.  My
customers are run the gamut ... as one would expect.  When I'm with
a customer there is one and only one thing on my mind - that of providing
a products and services with a Digital logo attached.  No valuing differences,
no women's rights/men's rights/gay rights/abortion/gun control/etc.. the
customer is always right - like it or not.

Speaking of services ... yes ... there are some that the MENNOTES community
could provide at Anthony's ...

Well .. some suggestions.  Make sure that your uniform is well pressed,
neat, clean.  Have the best of manners, make sure that our orders are
taken promptly, make sure the water glasses are filled - the wine is
served promptly  .. clear the table rapidly, effectively and with the
least amount of interruption ... that way you will receive a substantial
tip.

Bubba

    Beware Oriental waiter bearing smile.
    
    :-)

    Actually, I was thinking along the lines of technical support, i.e.,
    testimonials from the actual users of DEC products, how they are used
    inhouse and how they increase productivity, etc.  You get into the
    other stuff, you kill  the potential sale I would think...