Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Many years ago I came across a bunch of still younger boys. One of them
    was beating up the youngest of the bunch. The younger one seems a bit
    "out of it" (perhaps mentally challenged - I don't know but that's how
    it seemed at the time.). Naturally I tried to break up the fight.
    Someone was getting hurt. 

    The older boy was quite upset with me. He tried to explain that it was
    "alright" for him to be beating up the younger kid because he was his
    brother. I found this shocking. My brothers and I fought but not to the
    point of pain and almost never in public. All the other kids in the
    group agreed that because they were brothers it was "ok" to beat
    someone up. I made sure the younger kid had time to get away but I've
    long wondered what happened later.

    The long and the short of it is that I'd not be surprised to find that
    there were a lot of cases of this kind of disfunctional behavior. Lots
    of people seem to believe that one is "entitled" to do what they want
    to family.

    			Alfred

    kids who get abused are probably going to abuse somebody else
    when they are kids, a younger sibling
    when they are adults, their own kids

    I haven't read this notesfile for months, but what a coincidence that I
    open it up today and find this note, especially where this is a major
    issue for me right now.  
    Both I and my younger brother are truly a part of this statistic.  My
    stepbrother, who is 31, 5 years older than I, has returned home to my
    parents house as of a couple months ago.  Luckily I don't live there
    anymore.  He abused me and my younger brother for years, and noone
    did anything about it.  Neighbors knew, but did nothing except forbid
    thier children, our friends, from entering our house or even yard.
    My parents did not want to acknoledge it, especially as they had to
    fight to win custody of us from a foster home that our mother who had
    custody of us put us in.  It stopped when I moved out to get married.
    I moved back home less than a year later, but he in the meantime also
    got married and lived at home with his wife.  His wife for the most
    part got the abuse, so I was more or less protected and just lived with
    his constant threatening of me.  But I had nowhere else to go at that
    time, so I lived with it for a couple years and then moved out again.
    He got divorced and still remained at my parents home.  I had to move
    in temporarily again for a couple months when I was 25.  He threatened
    me right in front of friends who were helping me move in.  A few months
    later, I bought a condo and moved out for the last time.  Last year he
    met a girl and travelled around the country for almost a year with her.
    My life was so peaceful.  I made a vow to never set eyes upon him
    again.    He moved back to my parents house again a couple months ago.
    
    Its tough during holiday season, and with Thanksgiving coming up, my
    (step)mother is expecting I'll be there for the holidays as usual.
    I've skipped all of them for the past year when he was visiting, I
    sat down with her and told her why.  She said she "just realized
    this past summer when she was seeing a therapist for a couple months
    the extent of me and my littles brothers abuse.  She understood for
    a while.  Now she doesn't again, and she's making ME feel guilty for
    avoiding the rest of my family.  We had a fight this morning about it.
    
    Anyways, sorry for the dumping, this definately hit a nerve.
    
    But, YES, it DOES happen.  A lot more than people think.
    
    Also, my friend's ex-girlfriend and a brother were also victims of an
    older siblings abuse.
    
    /gina

    Gina,
    Do what you need to do for yourself.  If it is not safe to go to your
    parent's house for the holidays then don't.  You don't have to put
    yourself in a position where you will be abused.  You are not
    responsible for your family or for making their holidays happy.  You
    are only responsible for you and making yourself happy and for keeping
    yourself safe.
    
    Karen

    thank you Karen for the positive input...
    
    I'm really don't think I am in any danger of physical abuse anymore...
    
    It's just when I think back, it makes me physically *sick*, as well
    as upset, angry etc. and totally stressed out.
    
    The effects last a looooong time.

    I ask this in ignorance, and won't be surprised if I'm way off base.
    
    Would it be useful for you and your brother to kick the $hit out of
    your step sometime? It seems like it could be mutually therapeutic.
    This isn't really the same thing, but I was a minor terror up through
    about eighth grade, when someone who REALLY knew how to fight beat me
    up badly and put me off that stuff forever. I was a much better person
    for it. Maybe your step could benefit from this service?

    Gina -- emotional abuse is just as devastating as physical abuse;
    if you're in danger of emotional abuse during the visit, then I
    suggest that it's unsafe -- just as unsafe as if you were physically
    threatened -- and I'd suggest that you have the right to keep yourself
    safe from abuse: you don't have to go if you don't want to.
    
    					andrew

    Hoyt,  
    	I think that approach could be very dangerous.  I think there's
    probably a big difference between what you were in the eighth grade and
    what Gina's step-brother is, always has been, and probably always will
    be.
    
    Gina,  
    	I think you are doing the right thing by avoiding contact, if
    not for your physical safety then for your emotional safety.  You
    sound emotionally healthy in that you are looking after your own
    happiness.  Stick with it.  Good luck.
    						- Vick
    
    

re: .1, Alfred

> Lots of people seem to believe that one is "entitled" to do what they want
> to family.

I wonder if part of the rationalization for this comes from the fact that
while many parents openly oppose corporal punishment outside of the home
(e.g. by a teacher in school), they will occasionally indulge in a spanking
at home. I think kids may become conditioned to the idea that certain things
are OK in the home and family that aren't OK elsewhere.

I'm not indicting an occasional spanking, but I do think that that behavior
fosters a certain attitude.

-Jack

    In getting back to one of the initial questions asked, "What about the
    19 million other cases".  I did not think there were this many children
    in the United States, are these multiple happenings, within the same
    family??  Is it a world wide number??

    	With a population of something like 250 million, and a life
    expectancy of about 75 a blatant generalisation would give one fifth of
    the population (that is 50 million) under the age of 15.
    
    	Anybody with decent demographic statistics could probably correct
    this to a figure of 60 or 70 million. Anybody preferring a lower age
    than 15 as the limit of childhood could guess by scaling down pro-rata,
    but I would guess you have more than 19 million under the age of 5.

I'm not sure if this answers the basenoter question, but it relates to it.

My younger brother has put me in hospital twice over the past ten years, and
attacked me on numerous other occasions.  I might add he suffers from
psychological problems (he feels persecuted believe it or not!). 

Most violence is domestic and rarely surfaces. It's a taboo subject 
and one which most families are ashamed to admit - it implies dysfuntionality
within the family.

Wendy

>My younger brother has put me in hospital twice over the past ten years, and
>attacked me on numerous other occasions.  I might add he suffers from
>psychological problems (he feels persecuted believe it or not!). 

>Most violence is domestic and rarely surfaces. It's a taboo subject 
>and one which most families are ashamed to admit - it implies dysfuntionality
>within the family.

>Wendy

    Wendy, Thanks, I think you and others have answered some of the 
questions the show raised with me. I am the product of a stable family, 
little or no trauma as a child due to alcohol, drugs, etc,.... Traditional 
family of stay at home Mom, hard working Dad, etc. I just can't concieve of 
the numbers the show mentioned, and I guess it is my naivitivty that causes 
me to question them.

    To Wendy, Gina, and others who answered as victims, I wish you peace 
and safety and hopes for a better tomorrow from those who would harm you...

    Vic

    Vic -- 
    
    I don't see it as naivet�, you just weren't exposed to it as a kid. All
    of us, regardless of the situation we grow up in, tend to think of our
    upbringing as "normal," for a very simple reason: we're working from a
    data sample of one.  
    
    I didn't have more than one family, so I couldn't make comparisons.
    Until I started doing some self-help work, I naturally assumed that
    my upbringing was typical.  It was more typical than I thought, but
    it turned out to be less than ideal.  I was given some faulty values
    to live by, and I needed to correct those values as an adult.
    
    I'm glad that you grew up in a more stable and protective environment;
    I'm glad for you, and for your children (if you have any), because all
    of us tend to pass on what we learned as children.  You stand a much
    better chance of passing on the laudable values you learned as a kid.
    
    					andrew

    
    Well, my brother terrorized all of us -- my sisters, me, my mother,
    grandmother.  (He's 12 years older than me, 15 months older than my
    older sister, and 6 years older than the sister closest to me in age.)
    He sexually abused my sisters and me, and frequently threatened bodily 
    harm.  He never sent any of us to the hospital, but kept us all afraid
    for a long time (still does).  As long as I've known him, he has been 
    violent.  Just a couple of years ago, at a family picnic, he threatened 
    to kill my mother when she said something he didn't like.  I don't talk 
    to him much beyond "weather talk", and I don't take any more crap from 
    him (thanks Model Mugging).  Why do we still have contact with him?  He's 
    the single parent to a little girl; believe it or not, he seems to be
    the better choice when compared to the mother, who is also abusive (and
    has had abusive boyfriends).  We only stay in touch with him so that we 
    can keep our eyes open and be there if his daughter needs us.
    
    Cq

    	Re .15.
    
    	Nice to hear you keep in touch as a kind of Guardian Angel to
    your Niece but knowing that your brother used to do these things to
    you & other members of your family,do you think he should have charge
    of his daughter even though you state it is a better choice than the
    mother?? If the authorities were aware of abuse to you & family by your
    brother,would they still allow him to  be "caring" for his daughter???
    
        I am just concerned that your niece may well be suffering (as you 
    did) without being bad enough to be "sent to the hospital".It could
    still be happening.
    
    	Sorry if this sounds like I am butting in,I am not but simply
    airing a concern from reading your note.
    		
    

    
    No, I'm not sure that she's alright.  I'm almost certain that she
    isn't, even if there is no sexual abuse going on; he's a nut case.  
    I don't think he should have charge of his daughter, or any child.  
    He'd try to kill me (and I do not mean this figuratively) if I 
    tried to interfere.  I have more guts now than I did a few years 
    ago, though; maybe I'll talk to DSS.  He has had heavy involvement 
    with DSS in years past; I'd rather not go into the gory details.  
    
    Cq

       <<< Note 680.17 by GNUVAX::QUIRIY "All rights reserved, � 1952" >>>


Don't forget that if you call DSS your name does no have to be given.  The
person investigated doesn't know who filed the report.

    <Well, my brother terrorized all of us -- my sisters, me, my mother,
    <grandmother.  (He's 12 years older than me, 15 months older than my
    <older sister, and 6 years older than the sister closest to me in age.)
    <He sexually abused my sisters and me, and frequently threatened bodily 
    <harm.  He never sent any of us to the hospital, but kept us all afraid
    <for a long time (still does).  
    
    Do you have an opinion/information on where he learned how to behave
    that way to the females in his family?

    
    My brother has already been extensively investigated, with regards to
    his daughter.  However, at the time of the investigation, none of us
    (my sisters and I, and our mother) "came forward" to tell our stories.
    We were not asked.  (My own story, in particular, was less clearly 
    remembered at the time.)  We did not talk about our stories amongst
    ourselves, at the time, at least not directly.
    
    I don't believe I have anything to offer DSS that they could work with; 
    I have certainly not seen or heard anything incriminating.  I also don't
    know how I could talk to DSS without revealing my relationship (if not my 
    name), thus putting myself, my sisters, and my mother in what I believe 
    would be grave danger.  I'll do some investigating.
    
    Cq

    <He sexually abused my sisters and me...>
    
    You and your two sisters might want to consider suing him for the
    sexual abuse he perpetrated against you. I believe there is no statute
    of limitations for civil suits.
    

    
    I (or someone else) could probably write a book about how my brother
    got to be the way he is.  He learned to behave the way he does in the
    same places that we all learn: in the home, in school, from his social
    group, etc.  For one thing, he was never stopped.  He hates himself, 
    he hates his mother, he hated his father and desperately wanted his 
    father to love him.  Etc.  I don't know what kind of father my father 
    was, from experience, because he left us when I was a baby.  But, I 
    believe he was cold and cruel and manipulative.  (Well, he was able to 
    be all three on the few occasions I had to meet him.)  I don't have many 
    details and I'd rather not speculate.
    
    Cq

    I have interpreted your notes 'moniker' as saying you were born in 1952

    Do you mean something else by that? (maybe i shouldn't ask?)

    Why relevant? Just curious, i guess.
    It would make your brother the 51 yr father of a young child. 

    I apologize for my frankness, but I believe your niece is in jeopardy.
    
    <We only stay in touch with him so that we can keep our eyes open and
    <be there if his daughter needs us.
    
    How do you expect to determing if his daughter needs you?
    
    Since he sexually abused you and your sisters, I think you know that he
    is abusing his daughter -unless there has been very dramatic
    intervention that you would know about.
    
    Your mother was living in the same house with him and wasn't able to
    keep an eye out for you and your sisters.
    
    Marilyn VanDer Mere's (sp?) -Miss American 1959, i think- father had
    sex with her -as well as with an older sister- at home two or three
    times a week from the time she was 5 until the time she was 18 and her
    mother STILL claims she didn't know it. 
    
    How do you expect to be able to provide any protection if you are only
    even seeing your niece on an occasional basis? 
    How will you be able to develope that closeness that is a pre-requisite
    to recognizing "something isn't right", "something is different"?
    

    Yes, Herb, my 51 year old brother is the father of an 8 year old 
    child.

    As for my personal_name, it came from a humorous moment but also 
    expresses how I feel about myself.

    No need to apologise for your frankness; I take it as an expression
    of your concern.  I believe that my neice is in jeopardy as well;
    what kind of jeopardy I do not know.  Knowing and proving are two 
    different things, though.  I have no evidence that my brother is 
    abusing his daughter.  DSS (last I knew) needs evidence.  I have
    had some (frustrating) experience with them, with another case that
    I reported.
    
    > How do you expect to determing if his daughter needs you?
    
    She may say something.  She may have bruises.  Perhaps it would do 
    well for me to refresh my knowledge of some of the less obvious 
    signals.  However, I am an astute observer of human behavior.

    > Since he sexually abused you and your sisters, I think you know 
    > that he is abusing his daughter -unless there has been very 
    > dramatic intervention that you would know about.
    
    There has already been very dramatic intervention.  He has been
    investigated.  The DSS is overloaded; he can be charming.  I have
    my life experience with him and am skeptical.

    > How do you expect to be able to provide any protection if you are 
    > only even seeing your niece on an occasional basis? 

    I have not assumed total responsibility (and will not).  She is in 
    contact with other adults; teachers, doctors, day care workers, another 
    sister who lives in the same city, with whom she has a much closer
    relationship.  And, as I have said before, he scares me.  I have no
    faith in the ability of the local police to keep him away from me; if
    he wanted to "get" me, I'm sure he could.  However, if we felt we
    had more to go on than just our knowledge of his behavior towards us, 
    we would take action, regardless.  I didn't until know really 
    consider that my knowledge of him was something that DSS would want 
    to know; perhaps it is.

    Christine

    
    Herb, what I hear Christine doing is looking into what she is able to
    do given the situation that will ACTUALLY cause a difference in her
    neice's life, and realistically looking at how she can go about doing
    that without causing danger to herself.  It sounds to me like you would
    like her to do more than she is already doing.  I don't want to respond
    on Christine's behalf, but if I were in her shoes I'd feel a little
    pressured by your encouraging me to go beyond what my boundaries of
    safety were.  It is clear the man is unhealthy, and he may hurt the
    neice, but Christine has already looked into what has been done, seen
    the DSS route being tried, and is assessing things she may do in the
    future.  If anything does happen to the neice, Christine intends to be
    there in whatever ways she can.  But until then, it seems her hands are
    fairly well tied - she has tried the system and it seems to have failed
    (although both parents sound unfit), and it would be a shame if
    something happened to the girl but it would in now way at all be
    Christine's fault.
    
    Please correct me if I am wrong.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    <It sounds to me like you would like her to do more than she is already
    <doing.
    
    I would like her to be able to do more than she is already doing,
    but she needn't make that her issue just because it is my issue. 
    
    I was also feeling that the likelihood of causing a difference by
    episodic monitoring is very small, and felt that should be pointed out.
    
    <it would in now way at all be Christine's fault.
    The fault for the abuse always lies with the abuser.
    
    The (ethical, not judicial) crime of accessory after the fact, or
    before the fact lies with the people who knowingly allow abuse to
    happen, or abusers to go unreported. This is so true nowadays, that in
    fact it is a _judicial_ crime for health care workers or child care
    workers (e.g. teachers) to fail to report child abuse they are aware
    of.
    
    On a separate matter, I consider it to be the case that when
    fathers/step-fathers abuse their children, the mother is very
    frequently at least implicitly in collusion. I would like mothers to
    understand this, and perhaps even feel guilt about this. I feel it
    might be an important step in decreasing the frequency of child abuse.
    
    

    
    thank you for clarifying your position.  I appreciate your sentiments,
    and am sorry abuse happens, and even sorrier when hands are tied
    when abusers are abusers in ALL directions, not necessarily just to any
    one person....
    
    -Jody
    

    I am reading your reply as to give a sort of a priori absolution to
    those who stand by and let abuse happen (because their hands are tied).
    
    Is that what you mean to be saying?

    
    no, I'm saying that it's a shame that some people fear child abusers
    because they are sometimes adult abusers too.  If someone is violent to
    everybody, then if they are beating a child, and I step in and this
    person kills me, then what do I gain?  I think twice about stepping in
    in cases like this, see?
    
    I did not intend to create the impression that I absolve anyone who
    stands by and lets abuse happen.  However, I realistically accept that
    many people will choose to save their own lives, before they save
    another's, and that has to be okay.  What good is my attempt if I am
    killed in the process?
    
    -Jody
    

    Thankyou for clarification
    
    <if someone is violent to everybody, then if they are beating a child,
    and I step in and this person kills me, what do I gain>
    
    nothing
    Except perhaps for what you would have lost by not stepping-in. Which
    perhaps gets a bit philosophical/academic and therefore of modest
    utility to this discussion, in my opinion.
    
    For most parents I think such stepping-in is instinctive. For a parent
    who has been so intimidated/indoctrinated/brainwashed by somebody that
    such actions are not possible, psycho-therapy may be advisable. This
    is likely to be quite useful for any survivor of childhood sexual abuse
    or other serious physical abuse, in any case.
    
    				herb

    Christine:
    
    First of all, I feel very angry that this bastard is allowed to roam
    the earth. I am sorry that his evil power is directed at you. I believe
    I understand how disabling such fear can be.
    
    Second:
    It occurs to me there may be another way of having an impact on the
    situation (i mean aside from hiring a contract hit). The safety of this
    you will need to evaluate as well.
    
    you mention ...
    <She is in contact with other adults; teachers, doctors, day care
    <workers, another sister who lives in the same city, with whom she has
    <a much closer relationship.  
    
    how about if you and your sisters relate YOUR experiences -and
    concerns- to some or all of the people you mention above?
    
    There clearly is a potential issue of safety here as well, since one or
    more of the people above might tell him of the concerns you have
    expressed.
    
    just something to think about, no need to reply...

    
    re .25
    
    The DSS (in Mass) does not need evidence and are supposed to
    investigate all reports. When someone called them with a false
    claim about my wife and I, they contacted us the day the complaint
    was made.
    
    The DSS will want to talk to the daughter and may talk to her doctors 
    and teachers. If your brother refuses to talk to them, they can do
    other things.
    
    It won't hurt to call and ask.
    
    Guy