Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    My wife tends to avoid observation when naked, e.g. the bathroom door
    is shut when she bathes; she'll turn the light out before shedding her
    nightie with amorous intent. I don't understand why, having very little
    of that tendency myself. I don't particularly mind, and I don't try to
    fathom the workings of her mind. I _often_ say, "Nice outfit!", though,
    when I find her in a state of undress.

    You are really kind.  She must appreciate you.

    As a naturist I cannot relate to a persons desire to hide themself
    but I do understand that not everyone can overcome the selfconciousness
    some of us are brought up with. My ex woulden't allow me to see her naked
    even for sex the lights had to be out and under the covers.
    All I find I can do is be understanding and thankful I don't have
    such hang-ups. 
    
    -j

>I _often_ say, "Nice outfit!", though,
>    when I find her in a state of undress.

    Me too. I sort of assumed all husbands said things like that. Being
    critical of my wife's appearance would not really occur to me. She's
    beautiful and I tell her so at least once a day. I've long felt that
    if you look at your wife and don't see a beautiful woman than you're
    probably not in love anymore. 

    		Alfred

    re.4
    
    You know that's exactly how I feel and would react.  So why does
    he insist that he does in fact love me.  His actions do not match
    his words.  And maybe I need to stop this ridiculous merry-go-round.
     

    
    Perhaps your husband has grown an intolerance to timidness. I
    personally would feel insulted that my mate, whom I've been married to
    for sometime, couldn't feel uninhibited with me. Naturally, I would
    talk to her about how I feel before resorting impatience.
    
    _da
    
    

    This has been somewhat embarrassing for me.  But maybe for those
    gents that hadn't realized that if they were making these kind of
    remarks, that perhaps they could state their opinions in another
    way or situation rather.
    
    As to my own, perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive than need be.  My
    husband and I finally battered this topic out.  He definitely knows
    now how I feel about this.  I think he'll be much more sensitive
    before blurting out these kind of negative remarks.  
    
    And I will take a serious interest in maintaining toneness.  I guess
    he missed the way certain parts of me used to look when I was 18
    years old.  And I interpreted that to mean that he wished to have
    an 18yr. old.  Well, we finally both know what we mean.  And I'm
    glad.
         

    This aging effect reminds me of an advantage of the strange remark
    someone made in the 'girlz, girlz, girlz, moronz' topic: that they like
    the inside of the elbow, and the nape of the neck, or such. If one can
    find beauty in parts which are less subject to change than the usual
    droopers and bulgers (present company excepted), then the beauty would
    be timeless (I _think_ napes age well, ignoring freckles and moles).

    Perhaps some mind-less-ness is what is needed to make this a more
    health notes file. We have some reeeeal hot and heavy discussions and
    no one takes a break to laugh here. To see the lighter side of being a
    human. I donno. I think that we can be tooo serious here. I do enjoy
    reading the light stuff as much as the deep, just about cut'em at the 
    quick heavy stuff.

    
    
          Well,I guess I have to say that I learned my lesson.I have always 
    had high expectations of the ladies that I date.Weather they were in or
    out of there birthday soot.But this weakend,Imet a lady from bedford ma
    who I was supposed to go out to dinner with on friday night.Well, 
    needless to say,I didn"t think she was shall we say dressed for the 
    situation.But come to my surprise after dinner and after our date.I 
    think she is one most butiful ladies inside and out that I have ever
    met.Lets just say after getting to know her,she realy fit the bill.
    

    
       Boy, you sure ask a lot of questions in notesfiles !!!  Are you
    writing a book on human behavior or something ???....   :^)
    
    Anyway,  I've been married for 18 yrs. ( I'm 38 )  And in all that
    time never said anything negative about her appearance.( except
    about a certain hair style she tried once, but she asked me my 
    opinion.... ) I bet some of you won't believe that in all that time...
    ................
    Anyway, she is perfectly comfortable around me undressed. 
    
     I give her a hard time once in a while about smoking cigarettes,
     but that's another topic.... hey, oneone's perfect....
    
    
    Jack
    
                                                          
    
    
       

I would guess that most Europeans reading this note would wonder what all
the fuss is about but as Americans, most of us were taught at a very young
age that naked is bad.  Most of us had to overcome that myth.  As a man I
lost a lot of that after 4 years of an all boys Catholic High School and 4
years of the Navy and 4 years of College in California in the early 70's.
I have known a few bashful women in my life.  What I did to help them
overcome this was to be close to them.  By this I mean I did not stand back
from them and watch them undress but rather stand closer to them and help
them undress.  They found this much less intimidating.  At the same time I
pointed out to them what I found enticing and lovely and for me it wasn't
difficult to find many things.  If you look for fat and sags you could find
them on women marathon runners with 5% body fat.  If you look for assets,
you'll find that too.
                                                          
patrick    
    
       

    I like your attitude, Patrick. I'd guess that you too benefit from your
    tendency to accentuate the positive. I've always thought it fortunate
    that my tastes in beauty adjust to appreciate the person I'm in love
    with. These days, when a woman walks by and I notice my head turning in
    appreciation, I often notice a moment later that the woman looks a lot
    like my wife.
    
    I also like your strategy of getting up close. I'd speculate that a
    woman undressing while being watched could feel that she will be viewed
    in the same way we look at models in magazines. I really hate models in
    magazines, for continually pointing out to us that 1% of humankind is
    so beautiful. The 99% of us compare badly, and we don't even have the
    solace of experiencing those models as 18-year-old ditz's (sp?) whose
    conversation couldn't entertain a houseplant. Being up close converts
    the event from proto-photo-session to a sexy collaboration! Great!

    
     Re .13
     I don't think that "we Europeans" are much different, actually.
    (Well, I'm a Brit, so maybe that makes a difference ;-)
    Being comfortable with your own body is not at all common here.
    In fact, I've spoken to quite a few people here who've been to
    the USA and rather admire the confidence of people who will
    unselfconsciously wander around in, say, shorts whatever their
    body size or shape. We seem to be pretty darned self-conscious.
    
    Seems to me that women suffer from this "shyness" far more than
    men, and IMO that's directly because the standards of beauty for
    women are so repeatedly enforced and most of us don't have a
    hope in hell of matching up to them. There's the fear that your
    partner's expectation has been set by Playboy and you *know*
    you don't look like that. I mean, you look like a "real", breathing,
    attractive woman, not a centrefold.
    
    Do men also get "nekkid shyness"?
    
    Also, about words not matching actions...
    There are a million unspoken ways to make your mate feel attractive -
    or unattractive. It can be very painful, confusing and damaging to your
    self-esteem to be with someone who is giving out one set of signals 
    verbally and another through all other channels.
    
    'gail 

    
    lots of myn and wimmin don't buy into lettinng playboy set their
    expectation. if wimmin do buy into it, its 'cuz they choose to.
    
    wimmin would be suprised how attractive men actually regard them,
    were they not so busy being deliberatly standoffish..
    
    

    I'm not at all shy of being naked at home.  In fact, I had to work at
    learning to close doors while I dressed after my daughters got old
    enough to say DAAAAyAADDDDD!  I'm not particularly shy about being
    naked around female medical personal either, or in any other situation
    where nobody else is going to be embarrassed to see me naked.
    
    						- Vick

.17>    I'm not at all shy of being naked at home.  In fact, I had to work at
.17>    learning to close doors while I dressed after my daughters got old
.17>    enough to say DAAAAyAADDDDD!

- Vick

From your perspective, what would be the harm to your daughters/sons if they
were to continue to see you naked?  I have never met you but I get the 
impression that nudity is not such a big deal to you.  What thoughts do you 
suppose you are planting in your children's minds about the state of undress?
How would a European answer these questions?

    RE.18
    As a naturist I believe that children can be brought up to have healthy
    thoughts about nudity(the wonder of a clean slate) instead of the
    garbage so many of us have our minds filled with now. Nudity dosen't
    have to mean sex and the nude body is god's finest work of art not the
    dirty picture that must be hidden behind clothing. I think being
    raised with an acceptance of our own body -vs- playboy image is a 
    gift. Imagine for once being comfortable with gaining a few pounds
    or that new line beside the eyes and actually feeling good about it.
    
    
    As for my own opinion about playboy women: who wants a starved bony
    thing like that anyway a man could get seriously bruised or worse.
    Years ago  I dated a woman that was worthy of playboy. Beauty she had
    but zero self confidence her self worth was very dependant on others
    telling her how beautiful she was I felt sorry for her.
    
    -j
    
    

RE .16

 >   lots of myn and wimmin don't buy into lettinng playboy set their
 >   expectation. if wimmin do buy into it, its 'cuz they choose to.
  
     Gosh, such pc spelling;-)
     If we all have a *choice* about whether "Playboy" sets our expectations
     of attractiveness (in ourselves and others) why do you think so many
     people *choose* to adopt a comparison that makes them feel ugly
     and unattractive?
     Just low self-esteem, d'ya think?
    
   > wimmin would be suprised how attractive men actually regard them,
   > were they not so busy being deliberatly standoffish..
    
    Could you explain to me how you reached the conclusion that wimmin
    (in general I take it, by your use of the blanket term) were 
    "deliberatly standoffish"?
    I wasn't aware that I was busy doing this.
    
    'gail
 
    

    Re:  My kids.
    
    Well, what I was saying was that it wasn't I who decided I shouldn't 
    appear before my daughters in a state of undress, it was my daughters.
    I don't know where they got it from, but I don't think it would have
    been right for me to oppose their feelings on the matter.  They neither
    want me to see them naked or them to see me naked (this since each
    turned about 10 or 11.  I think it is a pretty deep societal taboo, 
    somehow anchored in the notion of incest.  I don't know.  I don't think
    nudity is harmful in any way, but like I say, I feel uncomfortable nude
    if and only if I think someone else is uncomfortable with my being
    nude.
    					
    Re:  Playboy
    
    Gee, I never thought of Playboy centerfolds as being bony.  However,
    to me they were always too clean-cut, too well-posed, too air-brushed.
    They always talked about how they represented the girl next door, but
    frankly, the women in the raunchier magazines always reminded me more
    of someone I might meet next door.
    
    						- Vick  

re: .21:

|    frankly, the women in the raunchier magazines always reminded me more
|    of someone I might meet next door.
|    
|   						- Vick  


so where do you live, Vick?  Sounds ideal to me (-: (-:

					Nigel

- Vick  

.21>    I think it is a pretty deep societal taboo, somehow anchored in the 
.21>    notion of incest.  I don't know.

I think I would have to agree with you on this.  That's really very sad...
You see, I could envisage a perfectly innocent scenario that might go something
like this:

Vick the Mathochist (Doctor, I think I read somewhere) is sitting on his bed
about to get dressed when his children come into the room.  

Children:  "Daddy, Daddy, we want to count the freckles on your back!".
    Vick:  "That's fine.  Let me know when your total matches the sum of your
            two ages.".
Children:  "One, two, three, four...  Daddy!  Freckle number five got bigger and
            darker from when we last counted.  Why is that?".
    Vick:  "Gee kids, maybe I had better go find out".

I think you can see where this is leading...

Someone over in the =WM= Notes file kicked in the idea about having a Clothing
Optional party of some sort.  I thought to myself "what a unique idea".  In the
course of such a party they could do/learn breast self-examination, etc.  If
just one woman were able to be saved from a future mastectomy, think of how
successful that party would have been.

Oh well, until we take the evil out of nudity...

    Thats okay, my wife counts all my freckles nightly.  :^)
    
    					- Vick

>    Thats okay, my wife counts all my freckles nightly.  :^)

 if her memory is that short she oughtta write it down. :-)

    Ms. Bennison told me that when she connects all the freckles on Vick's
    back, you get the Mona Lisa (tip 'o' the hat to Mad Magazine circa 1957).

    It was the Statue of Liberty for Rob Petrie, right?
    
    Ray, who often fantasizes about Mary Tyler Moore with her toe in the
    faucet

    It seems to me the replies to this note went off on a tangent, but I
    guess notes replies always do...anyway, my opinion is if my mate was
    afraid or that uptight to undress in front of me I would want to work
    out some sort of compromise or work to change the situation in a
    constructive, loving, understanding way. What kind of relationship is
    it where 2 people are married, supposed to be sharing space, bed and so
    on and one won't let the other see him/her nude ? I would not
    'encourage negative feelings', what good would that do ? The bottom
    line is I would want to be able to see my mate as she is and have her
    see me as I am. Obviously, it takes time to understand each other's
    viewpoints. Only my opinion.....Ray

>The Doctah's back yields Darryl Hannah

 Eew! Time for a skin graft! :-)

    >my opinion is if my mate was
    >afraid or that uptight to undress in front of me I would want to work
    >out some sort of compromise or work to change the situation in a
    >constructive, loving, understanding way. What kind of relationship is
    
    Night vision goggles might work.  :^)  Then she could leave the lights
    off.
    
    Re:  freckles
    That's half right.  But depending on how you connect the freckles you
    either get the Mona Lisa or Alfred E. Newman.
    
    							- Vick