Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Isn't the satanic halloween 6 months out of phase with our halloween?

    I don't know, but I think it's significant that I can get into this
    conference by typing:
    
      "O MEN"
    
    Ray

Did you realize Satan and Santa are anagrams?  Maybe this should wait till
Christmas?

I always thought of Satan as a convenient adversary for whatever story someone
wanted to tell.  Some people can't seem to function without a vision of something
or someone they're fighting against.  Now that we in the US don't have the
"Russkies" to kick around anymore, I fully expect folks to find some other
country or group thereof to serve the purpose.

					Steve

    A paper by Maribeth Kaye, ACSW/LISW Center for Human Living, Inc.
    					Akron, Ohio
    	       Lawrence Klein, PhD.	Wood County Mental Health Center
    					Bowling Green, Ohio

    			INTRODUCTION
    
    Increasingly, therapists engaged in the treatment of Multiple Personality
    Disorder (MPD) are discovering that an alarming number of their clients
    have been victimized by Satanic cults.  While the magnitude of this
    phenomena remains as yet undetermined, a recent informal survey of seven
    therapists in the Akron/Cleveland/Toledo area reveals that of forty-two MPD
    clients served, twenty have been identified as victims of Satanists.

    Typically these clients, afflicted independently, reveal experiencing
    remarkably similar ordeals at the hands of Satanic cults.  Such stories
    routinely include elements of torture by electric shock, Russian roulette,
    group chanting in which the name of the devil is invoked, ritualized sexual
    and physical abuse, and human sacrifice.  While such stories are
    spontaneously offered, they frequently are presented initially in a veiled,
    obscure form; only seemingly minor details emerging at first, the balance
    unfolding in response to therapeutic probe.  Unless prepared to identify
    the signs of cult involvement, even highly skilled clinicians may miss the
    salient cues.

    
    The intent of this paper is to bring to the awareness of therapists working
    with MPD clients, the often embedded signs of Satanic cult victimization. 
    Just as MPD often assumes a covert form and is not readily identifiable in
    the individual, so too are the signs of Satanic experiences suppressed.  It
    is argued that the clinician's index of suspicion for Satanic
    victimization should be raised in recognition of a pattern of signs.  Only
    through the acknowledgement of the client's real experiences can the
    necessary abreactive work be completed.  Further, a useful clinical
    perspective for engaging this most difficult material will be offered. 
    Several clinical vignettes will also be presented.
    

    		SATANIC EXPERIENCE IN PERSPECTIVE

    The primary focus and concern of the therapist faced with a client
    victimized by a Satanic cult must be with the traumatic experiences of the
    victim, not with the metaphysical world view of the abusers.  Wheter the
    victim is traumatized by a single individual acting out upon the child or
    by a group systematically inflicting pain as part of a ceremonial
    initiation rite, the fundamental experience of the victim is similar. The
    elemental debate regarding the primacy of the forces of good and evil in
    the universe is essentially irrelevant in the clinical context.  Regardless
    of the means or methods by which the pain was inflicted, it was imposed
    upon the victem.  The therapeutic method of dealing with the trauma,
    abreaction, remains the same...
    				.
    				.
    				.
    			(several pages of material)
    
    Another client over the course of the last year has abreacted much
    Satanic cult material.  Very recently after several weeks of
    stonach(sic) aches, chest pains and leg cramps, she, over the course of
    four hours, abreacted an episode of a forced abortion of a siz or
    seven-month old baby boy when she herself was only ten or eleven years
    of age.  her parents took an active part in this cult gathering, with
    her mother leaning on her chest and her father holding her legs down. 
    Something was then pumped into her through a tube down her throat.  She
    described her total bewilderment at what was occuring, her confusions,
    the command to remain silent throughout the ordeal, the overwhelming
    pain, and the revulsion.  The baby was placed in a pan of boiling water
    and later all members of the group ate some of the flesh.
    
    		WORDS OF CAUTION AND SUPPORT for the THERAPIST
    
    We have heard the stories, quite similar stories, from separate
    clients.  So too have our colleagues.  The stories relate incidents of
    barbaric torture and even murder.  We would like to think that they are
    not true. We wish we could.
    
    In the face of the enormity of what we have learned, we have elected to
    focus upon our clients.  To help them deal with their pain, see what
    they need to see hear what they need to hear, feel what they need to
    feel, and learn what they need to learn.  This is the scope of our
    present interventions.  The work is more than tough enough.
    

    This article was stapled together with several other articles and made
    available at a conference this spring, 1991. If sufficient interest is
    generated, I will contact the authors for permission to reprint this
    article.
    				herb
    I do not know where or when this was published. It has a bibliography 
    with material dated from 1973,1980 to April 27, 1986

    Steve, was that timing or what?
    
    Ray

    
    I don't believe in hell.  If I believe in anything Satanic, it's like
    the karmic concept of bad (good being for the betterment of most
    or all agents involved, bad being the opposite of good).
    
    I think people use evil as a scapegoat, when in actuality they have
    consciously made a decision to do something karmically BAD rather than
    something karmically GOOD (i.e. short term gain at someone else's
    cost).
    
    "The Devil Made Me Do It"  --- Dick Martin
    
    
    -Jody (a friendly neighborhood Unitarian Universalist)
    

    (I'm not a man, but I keep getting accused of walking like one. Can I
    reply here?)
    
    Re .2: Hmmm. Could one get any mileage out of the fact that one can
    access the =wn= conference with "O WO" (the "e" is silent)?
    
    SINGLES is, appropriately, O SIN (or, for those who hop in directly
    from DCL, "NO SIN," which rather defeats the purpose; but then, you can
    get into CHRISTIANITY with "NOT CHRIST", which is _clearly_ a reference
    to The Big Red Guy...).
    
    -beth-bob

  re: 666.6

>>    -Jody (a friendly neighborhood Unitarian Universalist)

  Me too, Jody.   :-)

  -- mardy

	
	The devil's marks or the devil's seal occur in nearly
	all reports of witches or witch trials and illustrate how
	perverted intelligence and hysterical stupidity could
	misinterpret natual phenomena and so bring about the
	murder of thousands of men and women and children.

	The devil's mark was often confused with the witch's mark,
	and later witch hunters accepted either as sufficent proof
	to establish witchcraft.

	The terms came to be used interchangeably throughout the
	persecutions, even by some demonologists; the distinction
	was that the devil's mark resembled a scar, birthmark,
	tattooing, whereas the witch's mark was a protuberance
	on the body at which the familiars were supposed to suck
	-an essentially English conception.

	According to theories in the sixteenth and seventeenth
	centuries, the devil sealed the compact with the witchs
	by giving them some mark of identification on the body,
	just like a rancher branding his cattle.  The demon
	imprints on the witches some mark, especially on those
	whose constancy he suspects. That mark, however, is not
	always of the same shape or figure; sometimes it is the
	likeness of a hare, sometimes like a toads foot, sometimes
	a spider, a puppy, a dormouse. It is imprinted on the 
	most secret parts of the body; with men, under the armpits,
	under the eyelids, or on the lips or shoulders, the anus,
	or elsewhere; with women, it is generally on the breasts
	or private parts. Now, the stamp which makes these marks
	is simply the devil's talon.

	Finding such marks was the best proof of a witch and was
	in itself sufficent to justify torture or sentence to death.

	kits 

    you can call a conference anything you want...
    
    add entry sex/file=OHMARY::CHOCOLATE
    
    then
    
    O SEX
    
    does the trick.
    
    Of course, if you don't like CHOCOLATE or SEX you are a sicko.
    
    :-)
    
    ed

	One thing that has always intrigued me is that in the Judeo-
Christian ethic, there is a belief in an Omnipotent, Omniscient and 
Omnipresent God.  Further, it is maintained that this is the ONLY God.  If 
this is the case, then how can Satan exist?  Allowing for such existence 
allows for the existence of two gods which contradicts the above-cited 
belief.

	I tend to agree with Jody.  I think that people invented Satan as a 
scapegoat so they wouldn't have to take responsibility for behaving in a 
way contrary to the beliefs they espoused.

Ron  (Your friendly neighborhood Baha'i)

> I am finding out there are allot of cults that are practicing this sort
> of stuff out there.

What "sort of stuff?"

> Even though these groups are under the protection of 'Freedom of Religon'
> status. When they cross the line and murder/sacrfice peole as done by a man
> conviced a couple of years ago, its gone too far.

Reference please?

> There is allot of this happening local in New Hampshire as what I have been
> told.

Why do you believe it?

Many of these stories are being used to harass legitimate Pagan groups. For the
entire history of Christendom, Pagans have been harassed as Satanists and devil
worshippers. Slanderous stories of human sacrifice and child abuse have been
used by one religion against another since religions were first organized. The
Church has been one of the largest promulgators of such stories, against Jews
(the Passover slander), against Druids, against native Pagan religions in
Germany.

Modern "Satanists" are always either angry ex-Christians, rebellious teenagers,
or slandered Pagans. In fact, "Satanism" is a Christian invention, and organized
Satanic crime is a myth. A very profitable dramatic myth that provides wonderful
grist for the yellow press, but a myth nonetheless.

	-- Charles

    Satan's Children, Robert S. Mayer, PHD
    
    A clinical psychologist who works with multiples. He recently appeared
    on a t.v. program with 3(?) of his patients. I do not remember the program
    name, but it was one of the talk-shows and was not Oprah or whatzizname
    (Donahue) ...
    			e.g.
    			Sally Jane Raphael
    			Geraldo
    			.
    			.
    The appearance COULD (of course) have been self-serving for either
    Mayer or the host (or both) yet still be useful. I have not read it.
    
    				herb

    I beg to differ Charles...
    
    I'm Catholic. In Derry, it required that all persons receiving
    communion, consume it immediately. There have been and still are
    instances of the Euchrists being taken from the church and used in
    Satanic Rites. 
    
    There are Satanic groups under constitutional protection at Pinkerton
    Academy. They meet after school and in the cafe' and openly recruit.
    
    I adopted a cat last year. I went to the humane society on October 29
    and was informed that I could not take any pet home until November 2.
    They do not allow adoptions for a week prior to and 2 days following
    Halloween. The woman told me that Satanic groups sacrafice animals
    during this time of All Souls.
    
    Say what you want, but these are just the tip of a very large satanic
    and Occult community in NH.
    
    Ken 

    Community Program Innovations, 
    P.O. Box 2066, 
    Danvers, Ma 01923-5066
    tel 508 774-0815

    This organization offers courses, seminars, and workshops on various
    clinical and management subjects. They will send you their brochures free
    upon request. 

    "All workshops have 6 hour Category I approval for Massachusetts licensed
    social workers and 6 hours approval for substance abuse counselors.  All
    workshops offer 6 contact hours for nursing license renewal."

    May 2 & 3 1991 there was a national conference on Cults and Ritualistic
    Abuse in Boston attended by over 300 people. The topics and speakers were
    ...
    			topic				     speaker

    Facing Reality & Beginning the Work with Victims and   Gayle Woodsum
    Survivors of Ritualistic and Cult-Related Abuse

    Assessing Multiplicity (MPD) in Adult Survivors	   Tree A. Borden

    Transitions & Development of a Ritual Abuse Therapist  Louise Edwards

    Ritualistic & Cult Abuse: Evaluation & Treatment	   Dr. Robert 
    Strategies for Youth				   Kinscherff

    The Intricacies of Doing In-depth Work with Individ-   Gayle Woodsum
    uals Who Have Ritualistic &/or Cult-Related Abuse
    Histories

    Treating Multiplicity (Multiple Personality Disorder)  Tree Borden
    in Adult Survivors

    Differentiating Between Ritual Assault & Sexual	   Louise Edwards
    Abuse

    Satanic Ritual Abuse				   Dr. David K.
    							   Sakheim

    The audio tapes for this conference are available at $10 per tape
    from Community Program Innovations whose address is above.

    from one of the brochures of

    		Community Program Innovations
    		P.O. Box 2066, Danvers Mass
    		01923-5066
    		508 774-0815


    Satanic Cults & Ritualistic Abuse			Fri Nov 15, 1991


    There are limited facts and significant controversies concerning satanism
    and ritualistic abuse.  The workshop will provide an overview of what is
    currently known and will clarify various perspectives on:

    o	the history of satanic religions
    o	historical vs. narrative truth
    o	psychological assessment and the clinical presentation
    	of ritual abuse survivors
    o	satanic beliefs and practices
    o	forensic issues and ritual abuse
    o	stages of treatment aned other clinical issues
    	in the therapy of ritual abuse.


    				Instructor

    David K. Sakheim, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist with private
    practice in both Connecticut and Massachusetts.  He has been providing
    psychotherapy and supervision in the area of childhood trauma for many
    years, and has published, consulted, and lectured widely about multiple
    personality and other dissociative disorders.  He is the co-editor of the
    recent book, 

    Darkness and Light: Satanism and Ritual Abuse Unveiled

> I beg to differ Charles...

No need to beg. Lots of people differ... :-)
    
> I'm Catholic. In Derry, it required that all persons receiving communion,
> consume it immediately.

This is standard practice, and has been for hundreds of years. It actually has
only little to do with "Satanism" and more about respect for the Host. In fact
this respect for the Host is part of why some people are uncomfortable with the
practice of receiving the Host in the hand. But simply that the Catholic
Church is afraid of Satanists and Satanism in no way invalidates my thesis.

> There have been and still are instances of the Euchrists being taken from the
> church and used in Satanic Rites.

Oh? I believe you, but your statement is not proof. My contention is that
Satanism is a Christian aberration and a Christian invention, and has no
independent existance.
    
> There are Satanic groups under constitutional protection at Pinkerton
> Academy. They meet after school and in the cafe' and openly recruit.

Details? I don't believe it, unless this is the standard calumny against Pagan
groups.
    
> I adopted a cat last year. I went to the humane society on October 29
> and was informed that I could not take any pet home until November 2.
> They do not allow adoptions for a week prior to and 2 days following
> Halloween. The woman told me that Satanic groups sacrafice animals
> during this time of All Souls.

"Satanic" is an interesting claim. I know that Santeria
requires/encourages/allows animal sacrifice, but Santeria is not Satanism... I
wouldn't let people adopt cats during Haloween week either, there's too many
deluded teenagers and other sickos that would indeed sacrifice or torture the
cat. That doesn't make them Satanists.
    
> Say what you want, 

I will, I assume you will too.

> but these are just the tip of a very large satanic and Occult community in NH.

With all due respect - prove it.

Re. 19

> I ment no slander to the cults of Satanical practice. 

Nonsense. Your statement above is slanderous. "Cults" indeed. But I am not a
Satanist, nor an apologist for Satanism. I believe the current hysteria about
Satanism is the product of (well meaning, no doubt) Christians who see threats,
demons, and devils in any non-mainstream religion. I also see a backlash by
rebellious teenagers who are trying to shock and annoy their parents and other
figures of athority, and even adults who are reacting against their Christian
upbringing and a Christian society. Satanism exists only in relation to the
more extreme forms of Christianity, without Christianity there would be no
Satanists. I have no expectation of being able to convince Christians that just
as Pagans have no interest in their God, they have even less interest in the
Christian Satan, both are equally irrelevant.

> But I promise to look up this person and give you a name and case.

Thank you.

> But rest assure[d], little man, my information is not hear-say.

There is no need to be insulting. If you are sure of your facts, present them.
(I'm 6' even for what it's worth...)

	-- Charles

    i am not a Christian.
    

> Yes, Charles, shock a dog to death by chopping its head off. No blood
> letting. Yep. Chopping up people too? As this man from New York?? Or
> Charle and company? Guess you got them fooled. Esp Sharron Tate! Wow!
> What a shock to their parents when they found that their son/daughter
> was out to get some kicks by killing. Guess you gotta get some help
> little man. 

What? George, I think you've lost it. Charles Manson was not a Satanist, he was
a nut, and you're beginning to sound like a nut too. Maybe your gym is posessed,
or you've got an undine in your spa.

	-- Charles

> No? Charlie was a Statanist? Better re-read Helter Skelter. 
> If, this is not Statnist? What is it? 

Insanity. Richard Ramirez wasn't a Satanist either, just a nut. Does someone
claiming to be a Christian make them a Christian? How do you tell?
    
> Reguarding nuts, I don't get my jollies in killing little animals,
> people, and such. How about you?

Nope, not me either. Is that how you can tell someone's a Satanist? They kill
little animals and people? What a conveniently simple definition.

> Get your jollies on a little blood letting?

I prefer piercing actually.

	-- Charles

Folks, can we perhaps leave the subject of "whether or not Satanism exists" and
get back to Ray's question, which is on a more personal level?   (And I admit
I am slow - I just now realized what the number of this note was!)

				Steve

    you mean .0 wasn't tongue in cheek?
    I thought it was a joke that became a serious discussion as a result of
    several people's interest.

    Yeah, it did start out as forked tongue in furred cheek (I mean, some
    of my best friends are witches!), but hey, one of the beautiful (or,
    OK, let's just say obvious) traits of this medium is all the different
    ways a topic may be picked up and run away with. Go for it, guys.
    
    (Based on other fears expressed by those who are currently finding
    pentagrams under their beds, I'm inclined towards skepticism. On the
    other hand, if I was growing up in New Hampshire I might start making
    google-eyes at goats too, just out of boredom. My car and a TV set were
    victims of ritual sacrifice in Nashua; the Evil One only knows how many
    live chickens have joined them.)
    
    Ray

	There, in a gloomy hollow glen, she found
	A little cottage built of sticks and weeds,
	In homely wise, and walled with sods around,
	In which a witch did dwell in loathly weeds
	And willful want, all careless of her needs;
	So choosing solitary to abide,
	Far from all neighbors, that her devilish deeds
	And hellish arts from people she might hide,
	And hurt far off, unknown, whomever she envied.

			Edmund Spenser, (Faerie Queene) (1590)

	The witch in the black pointed hat and cape, riding on
	a broomstick or talking to her cat, is part of the folklore
	of witchcraft. Unfortunately, this notion obscures the fact
	that the majority of persons accused as witches were not old
	women casting spells; even in England, where the trials no
	doubt involved many hags, younger women were just as
	frequently accused.

	In Germany it was malice and jealousy which often dictated
	the names denouced in the torture chamber. The educated,
	weathly, young and respected weere the most numerous of those
	burned. Wealth, learning, beauty, goodness --  these were
	often the very conditions of accusation.

The following four replies explain the phenomenon of "Satanic Child Abuse" and
debunk some of the more sensationalistic claims about MPD and Satanism. 

Warning - the first one is VERY long.

All are reprinted with permission.

	-- Charles

From CORNERSTONE magazine, volume 18, issue 90, pages 3-8:

S A T A N ' S   S I D E S H O W
Gretchen & Bob Passantino and Jon Trott

          Step right up!  It's Satan's Underground!
          A hundred thousand copies in print!
          Featured on radio and TV, from "Geraldo" to the "700 Club"!
          Stories of satanic rituals, snuff films, and human sacrifice!
          Author Lauren Stratford survived to tell us all about it!
                                               Now judge for yourself ....


THIS article is the extraordinary chronicle of how one woman's gruesome
fantasy was twisted into seeming fact.  Perhaps the people who believed her
tale felt the illusion of evidence she offered was due to the desperate times
in which we live, times when little children are horribly abused and yet seem
to find no rescue or protection from the authorities or the courts.

   But we believe these child victims can be protected from further harm and
exploitation only if those who work on their behalf do so with absolute
integrity, honesty, and responsibility.  Sensational stories may sell more
books, generate more television appearances, and provide more visibility to
one's cause, and one may believe them because "they're too bizarre not to be
true," but they should never be substituted for careful, accurate, and
truthful reporting.

   In the course of our research into the _Satan's Underground_ [1] story, we
talked with parents of children who had been ritually abused and who had
reason to believe Lauren Stratford's testimony was not true.  We asked them
why they were willing to tell us what they knew, when, after all, her story
supported their children's statements.  One parent spoke for them all:

   We're so afraid that no one will believe our children.  If this story
   were true, it would be invaluable.  But we know it's not, and the only
   testimony worse for our children than no testimony is a testimony that's
   not true.  If we can't find the courage to speak out and tell what we
   know about Lauren Stratford's story, then we're sitting ducks for the
   people we know who are guilty and who are just looking for a way to
   discredit our children. [2]

   The hard evidence we have uncovered and which we present here speaks for
itself.  The story of _Satan's Underground_ is not true.  And the same
exploited children it may have been designed to help have been cheated of the
truth.

                              SATAN'S UNDERGROUND

A synopsis of the story told in _Satan's Underground_ is very difficult to
produce.  The book is missing dates, places, outside events, and even the true
names of the principal characters necessary for placing the story in an
historical and geographical context.  Stratford says, "In part this is for my
own protection, but it also serves to remind you that what I've endured is not
limited to one city or region.  I have also changed names and descriptions of
many key figures in order to protect the victims." [3]

   According to _Satan's Underground_, Stratford was born illegitimately and
adopted at birth by a "professional" couple.  Her adoptive father left when
Lauren was four because of his wife's explosive temper and physical abuse
toward him.  At six Lauren was raped in her basement by a day laborer. [4] The
rape was the mother's idea of a "fair wage" for the laborer's work.  The rapes
continued by various "smelly" men, and under her mother's authority child
pornography pictures and bestiality were added when she was eight. Throughout
childhood, Lauren received the physical abuse her mother had previously heaped
on her husband.  Several times Lauren tried to tell adults what was happening,
but neither her school counselor, pastor, youth group leader, nor a woman sent
by the police believed her.

   At fifteen, after a particularly brutal physical altercation with her
mother, Lauren collected bus fare donations from her school friends and
escaped to a city two hundred miles away.  She ended up in juvenile hall and
was picked up by her father, whom she had not seen in eleven years.  She moved
"across the country" with him rather than returning to live with her mother.

   Lauren had only lived with her father for a short time when her mother
called, insisting he allow "them" to come and get Lauren to continue the
pornographic abuse.  She then realized the multistate extent of the
pornography ring her mother had inducted her into as a child.

   By the time she turned twenty, Lauren had been living a "dual life" [5] at
home (with her father, at church, and in school) and at the pornographer's
studio (mostly on weekends).  It was then she met the leader of the ring:
Victor.

   She learned that Victor's empire included pornography, prostitution, drugs,
sadomasochism, and child prostitution and pornography.  Victor wanted her to
be his "woman," but she had to pass a test first.  For several weekends in a
row she had to properly pleasure his best customers, no matter what their
perversions, demands, or tortures.

   She passed the test.  Victor had his assistant hold her while he used a
razor blade on her forehead to initiate her as his "woman."  The sexual
perversion didn't end, she just responded to Victor's whims instead of any and
all customers'.  She managed to continue her college studies despite the drugs
and the torturous weekends with Victor.  But Victor got bored.  What was left
to excite and thrill him?

   Satanism.  It was, he told Lauren, the ultimate path to power and sexual
gratification.  At first he forced her to attend satanic rituals [6] where he
and others sexually abused her.  Then he demanded she participate in a child
sacrifice ritual.  She refused and underwent brainwashing and torture for an
unspecified time.  Finally Victor threatened he would ritually kill a baby
each week that she continued to refuse.  After holding out for four weeks, she
was locked in a metal drum with the dead bodies of four babies who had been
sacrified.  She finally gave in and evidently participated in an infant
sacrifice ritual on Halloween night.  She says, "It was the last time I ever
participated in a satanic ritual." [7]

   A later chapter in the book tells that sometime during her late teens and
early twenties she gave birth to three children.  The first two were killed
shortly after birth in snuff films and the third, a son she calls "Joey," was
sacrificed in her presence at a ritual.

   When Lauren's father unexpectedly died, she realized she had no real reason
to stay in the area.  Thus began her frantic flight from Victor and his
conspiratorial enforcers.  She moved to many cities over the next few years,
[8] but Victor's men always found her and continued periodic threats to ensure
her silence.  Her emotional and physical health deteriorated as a consequence
of the extreme abuse she had suffered.  During one eight-year period she was
hospitalized more than forty times.

   Her "breakthrough," enabling her to begin the "healing process," began with
some sensitive hospital therapists.  She learned that she didn't have to be a
victim any longer.  But she was far from well.

   Then she saw Johanna Michaelson on television.  Somehow Lauren knew that
her physical and spiritual healing would be accomplished through her.  But it
was another eighteen months before she and Johanna met.

   After their first meeting, Lauren moved in with Johanna.  Johanna and her
entire family, including her husband, sister Kim, and brother-in-law Hal
Lindsey, ministered healing to Lauren.  In a number of months a new Lauren and
a new book emerged from a fierce spiritual battle.  The victim is beginning to
be left behind, the victorious counselor appears.  The stage is set for the
counselor's handbook, _I Know You're Hurting_.  Such is the story of _Satan's
Underground_.

                           WHO IS LAUREN STRATFORD?

LAUREN Stratford doesn't exist, except as the pen name of Laurel Rose Wilson,
and _Satan's Underground_ is only one of the stories she's told about her
life.

   Laurel Wilson was born prematurely to Marrian E. Disbrow [9] on August 18,
1941, [10] in St. Joseph's Hospital in Tacoma, Washington. [11]  She was
brought home after forty-four days in the hospital by her adoptive parents,
physician Frank Cole Wilson and schoolteacher Rose Gray Wilson, to a little
town called Buckley.  The littlest Wilson joined her big sister Willow Nell,
who was five years older.  Laurel's adoption by the Wilsons was finalized on
February 17, 1942, before her first birthday.

   In a signed statement Willow prepared for us, she described her parents:

   My parents were devout Christians.  They were both active members of the
   Bible Presbyterian Church in Tacoma.  Both of them were fully committed
   to the Lord Jesus Christ.  My sister and I were raised in a very
   sheltered, strict Christian home.  There was no place in our home for
   anything remotely occult or pornographic.  My mother continues as a
   dedicated Christian, for many years now a member of _________ [12]
   Church .... [13]

   One assumes from _Satan's Underground that its author is an only child.
There is no mention of any sibling.  The average reader would also assume that
Stratford's mother is probably dead, which would explain why Stratford neither
confronted nor reconciled with her mother as part of her spiritual and
emotional healing.  Neither assumption is true.

                           LAUREL'S EARLY CHILDHOOD

THE Wilson home at 1624 "A" Street was not peaceful.  Rose had an
unpredictable temper, and Frank, with an explosive temper of his own, was
often the brunt of her outbursts.  His health was precarious, the result of a
heart attack, and the stress on him was taxing.  Willow was Laurel's protector
and comforter, and many Saturday and Sunday afternoons were spent in the park
together, hiking or riding bikes.  Willow remembers life for her and Laurel
during this time was very unpredictable.  They never knew if Mother would be
in one of her rages or would take them to the beach for the day.  But even the
anger Willow remembers is nothing like what _Satan's Underground_ describes:

   My mother did have a temper.  And she did have problems.  But she loved
   us. My mother was never involved with pornography.  No, no.  No, no, NO!
   Mother would be absolutely appalled....  She's _very_ straightlaced. [14]

   In actuality, Frank left the family in 1950, [15] when Laurel was nine
years old, not when she was four as _Satan's Underground_ describes.  This was
after the family had moved from Buckley to 805 North "C" in nearby Tacoma.
Both Frank and Willow were living with Laurel and her mother during the time
period that Laurel wrote in her book she was being repeatedly raped and used
in child pornography and bestiality.  "I was never part of a porno empire,"
Willow explains wryly.  "And let me tell you, I was a very inquisitive little
kid, with my ear to the door.  If there had been any sort of business going on
like that, believe me, I would have known about it." [16]

   Laurel was very musically gifted.  Her adoptive parents plied her with
music lessons, including voice, piano, clarinet, and flute.  One of her
singing competition judges wrote when Laurel was eight, "Outstanding
accomplishment for length of study.  This must be a very intelligent and
musical girl." [17]  Her report cards reflect almost straight A's.  Her
attendance and grades precluded long absences from school such as would have
seemed necessary from the extreme sexual abuse described in _Satan's
Underground_. [18]

                              HER LATER CHILDHOOD

DURING Laurel's high school years, she was active in school clubs and
extracurricular activities.  Returning from a singing engagement, Laurel and
two friends were involved in an auto accident.  Laurel had a minor ankle
injury, and both members of the trio recall that she was extremely distraught
in the car and in the hospital, continually calling for her father.  She
seemed bitterly disappointed that he didn't come. [19]

   Laurel ran away shortly after the accident.  She stayed within the city of
Tacoma, at Raymond Juvenile Hall, until arrangements were made for her to stay
with her father in California.  Not liking San Bernardino schools, she
returned to her mother, but soon moved in with her sister.  By then, Willow
was married with two young children and living in Seattle.

   When Laurel was seventeen, she told a friend at King's Garden High School
that she had been sexually molested by her brother-in-law, Willow's husband.
She sounded at the time as though that were the only sexual abuse she had ever
suffered.  Her allegations were disproven and Willow contacted their dad and
received permission for Laurel to get psychiatric counseling.  Willow and her
husband were told by the psychiatrist not to continue allowing Laurel to live
with them:  "She's a danger to your children." [20]

   Laurel graduated from King's Garden [21] and enrolled in what was then
called Seattle-Pacific College in September of 1959. [22]  Marie Hollowell,
the school's dean of women who had been a special friend to Willow, also took
an interest in "trying to draw Laurel out." [23]  Laurel soon told a classmate
that she had been molested sexually, perhaps by members of the college staff,
and that her mother had driven her to "the bad side of town" to be a
prostitute.  In a meeting with Marie Hollowell, Willow, and a psychiatrist,
Laurel admitted she had made the stories up to "impress" her new friend.
Because of this controversy, the school recommended psychiatric care for
Laurel.  Soon after, she attempted suicide by cutting her wrists. [24]

                                YOUNG ADULTHOOD

BY September of 1960 Laurel was living in Southern California with her father,
Frank.  He was a physician for the Santa Fe Railroad and had a private
practice in San Bernardino.  When Laurel was nineteen, she wrote some of her
old friends that her father was sexually abusing her. [25]

   Enrolled in the University of Redlands, Laurel majored in music. [26]  She
directed the choir at First Assembly of God Church in Rialto, where she and
her father were members. [27]  Though she gained acceptance through her
musical talent and skill, her emotional troubles were not resolved.  Her
pastor, Eugene Boone, was called in numerous times because Laurel had cut her
arms in apparent suicide attempts.  This went on over the six years Revered
Boone knew her.

   While still in college, during 1962, she met a Pentecostal evangelist
couple, Norman and Billie Gordon.  Billie described her relationship with
Laurel this way:

   I like to help people, that's what I'm about.  But Laurel was a hopeless
   case.... We met her after a service we testified at.  A car pulled up in
   our driveway.  I opened my door and invited her in, but she didn't come
   in.  I closed my door.  I heard her voice, so I opened my door again.
   She said, "Please, come out and help me.  I heard you testify tonight.
   Please come and talk because I'm not the kind of person you want in your
   house."

   Laurel ended up practically living with the Gordons for most of 1962.
During that time the stress was so intense that Billie went from 140 to 100
pounds.  Her children begged her to ask Laurel to leave because Laurel was
consuming all of Billie's time and attention.  There was nothing left for
anyone but Laurel. [28]

   Laurel told a series of stories to Billie and Norman Gordon.  She told them
that Frank Cole Wilson was her natural father, and that her natural mother had
died when she was very small.  Her father had quickly remarried, and her
stepmother had physically and sexually abused her ever since.  The Gordons
assumed that Laurel was living with her father and stepmother.  (In reality,
Frank and Laurel lived alone at 1580 North Vista in Rialto.)

   Laurel also "became blind" while with them, and they prayed frequently for
her healing.  However, they began to suspect she wasn't really blind.  One day
when they were driving past the University of Redlands, Laurel pointed out a
landmark.  Confronted, Laurel tried to say she'd felt a familiar bump in the
road, but finally admitted she had faked her blindness to obtain sympathy and
attention.  Billie told us that one afternoon Laurel showed up with a huge red
bump and bruises on her forehead.  She asked Billie to protect her--her
stepmother had hit her on the head with a can of peaches. [29]  Again,
confronted by an unbelieving Billie, she confessed that she had hit herself
with the can to gain sympathy.

   Laurel's break with the Gordons was precipitated by an incident that took
place in their home while Norman was out.  Laurel, locking herself in the
bathroom, broke a glass vase and proceeded to cut her face in three places.
She then charged out of the room with the broken vase, straight for Billie's
neck.  Billie's grown son wrestled the glass away from her. [30]

   Shortly after this, Laurel returned home to her father.  A Woman who was a
member of the Hemet First Assembly of God church befriended her and attempted
to help Laurel, whom she considered troubled and emotionally depressed.  (This
woman is the first of three of Laurel's closest acquaintances who asked to
have their names withheld.  We have labeled them "Friend One," "Friend Two,"
and "Friend Three.")  Friend One confirmed that Laurel cut her own arms
several different times.

   When Laurel was twenty-two (1963), she told Friend One that she had been
seduced into a lesbian relationship with two church women. [31]  On June 7,
1964, she graduated from Redlands with a bachelor's in music, with a special
secondary education teaching credential in music. [32]  Soon after this,
Laurel disappeared from home.  Later she told Friend One that she had run away
to Teen Challenge in Los Angeles and gone through their drug abuse program,
then had become a drug counselor.  Her friend angrily pointed out that
Laurel's drug use was a lie.  According to Friend One, Laurel admitted she had
never had a drug problem, but had made the story up for Teen Challenge. [33]

   Laurel was still living with her father when he died of a heart attack at
home.  Dr. Frank Cole Wilson was pronounced dead at 8:45 a.m. on January 4,
1965. [34]  Willow and Rose, their mother, came from Washington for the
services.  Rose stayed on for a while, signing a probate paper with Laurel on
February 5 and attending Sunday services at the same First Assembly of God in
Rialto where Laurel was the choir director.  Probate on Dr. Wilson's estate
took almost two years and wasn't finally settled until the end of 1967.

                             MID TO LATE TWENTIES

LAUREL met Frank Austin at church while she was living for a time at 208
Valley View in Hemet.  He was almost one and a half years younger than Laurel
and was the son of a Pentecostal Holiness minister. [35]  They dated three or
four times and then, Frank told us, she suggested marriage.  "She seemed like
a nice Christian girl and it seemed like a good thing to do, so we did."  They
were married on March 11, 1966, with Friend Two and Frank's father as
witnesses. [36]

   At that point, what one wishes could have been the beginning of a happy
story instead led to only more pain and failure.  Within a week the troubled
couple, their marriage still unconsummated, sought counsel from Friend One and
her husband. [37]  Here we reluctantly include comments from Frank which are
very private.  We do so only because _Satan's Underground_ claims that Laurel
had been raped and abused since childhood, had been involved in hard-core
prostitution for at least five years for at least five years, and had borne
three children by this time.  Frank told us the marriage was eventually
consummated, and that Laurel "was a virgin until then."  Frank and Laurel
agreed to an annulment, granted on May 17, 1966.

   Laurel's desperate need for attention was described by Friend Two:

   I felt sorry for Laurel.... She called me one night at midnight.  I went
   over and found her cutting her arm with a paring knife.  She had made
   several cuts already....   She so desperately needed someone to say they
   loved her, in Christian love.  Laurel didn't have anybody, because she
   would turn them against her by wearing them down.  She would go from one
   friend to the next, knowing they wouldn't be her friends for long.
   That's sad.... There were a lot of times I had to be with her when I
   wanted to be with my kids.  I've apologized to my kids for that.  I will
   never allow anybody, ever again, to suck me in the way she did.

   Laurel turned twenty-five in August of 1966.  She taught music at Hemet
Junior High School for one and one-half years, from September 1966 through
January 1968. [38]  Her picture in the school yearbook shows her smiling next
to the choir. [39]  This was the only public school teaching recorded for her,
although her renewed teaching credential is valid until 1991. [40]

   Laurel appears to have been employed at the California Institute for Women
in Chino, probably from 1969 to 1971.  She says she was a correctional
counselor on her alumni report.  She gave the same information to Willow and
others throughout the years.  She told yet another friend that she had been a
guard.  However, we have been unable to confirm either job with the Prison
Personnel Office or with the California Penal System Office of Past
Employment.

   During this time she was still active in various Assemblies of God churches
and gained a small popularity as a Christian singer in different churches.
[41]  She joined a singing group led by Delpha Nichols called "Delpha and the
Witnesses."  The male singer, Ken Sanders, and his wife invited her to live
with them in Bakersfield. [42]  She has lived in the Bakersfield area since
1971.

   Delpha, Ken, and Laurel sang at many churches and toured on a limited
basis.  Ken remembers Laurel as a nice Christian woman with good values, but
who was also emotionally troubled.  Though "The Witnesses" stayed with nearby
church people's homes while touring, Laurel insisted she needed a private
hotel room.  One time, Ken related, she became frantic when told they would be
staying with nearby church people.  Laurel attacked Delpha so violently "she
nearly clawed Delpha's dress off."  Laurel got a hotel room. [43]

   Ken stated that Laurel did talk about her mother sexually abusing her and
offering her to various men, abuse which had church-related overtones:

   One night, when Laurel was still living with us, I took out the Bible
   for our family devotions.  She jumped up and ran off into her room and
   locked the door behind her.  Later, she said it was because when they
   used to do these perversions to her, that's how it would begin.  "It was
   in the name of Jesus they did this stuff."

                                 HER THIRTIES

DELPHA and her husband Willie loved Laurel.  They felt sorry for the girl
nobody seemed to love, and though she was an adult of thirty or so, they
legally adopted her and she called them her family.  One of the many stories
Laurel told Delpha was that her mother had abused her so horribly she was
sterile and could never have children. [44]

   Laurel wrote many stories of her childhood and family in letters to Delpha.
Delpha saved them until Laurel contacted her more recently and requested she
burn them all.  We asked Delpha why Laurel had wanted them burned.  "She
didn't want anybody to see them, I guess.... She was telling me about her
past."  Delpha continued, "There's a lot of things I don't understand.  I'm
mixed up about a lot of things about Laurel like that."

   By 1973, Laurel had written and copyrighted some Christian songs while with
the group. [45]  "Delpha and the Witnesses" broke up in 1974.  Ken calmly
observed, "It was because of Laurel, of course."  Laurel and the Sanders
continued to go to the same church in 1974, pastored by David Joiner. [46]
Laurel was living at 1405 White Lane in Bakersfield.  Though she still sang
some with Delpha, she also accompanied other Christian singers both at her own
church and others.  During this time she gave private piano lessons.

   Ken Sanders and Pastor Joiner both recalled Laurel and another church
member, Friend Three, leaving the church some time in 1975.  (Ken didn't see
Laurel again until 1984, when he saw her at a special church service in honor
of Delpha and Willie.)  Laurel told a number of stories to Friend Three, who
lived with her for a time.  Among other things, Laurel told her that her scars
were from her mother's abuse.  The friend explained to us what she how
believes to be the stories' real source:

   Have you read the book _Sybil_?  I didn't read it until I started taking
   my psychology classes.  I realized that most of the stories Laurel had
   told me about her mom's abuse were taken literally from _Sybil_.  You
   know, the torture with enemas, the piano, the whole bit.  Even the part
   about the mom's abuse with small sharp objects that rendered her
   incapable of having children.... Laurel took that directly out of the
   book.

   Friend Three explained to us Laurel's claim that the physical and sexual
abuse continued until she went to live with her father, and then it all
stopped.  As the friend talked with us, she shared the destructive influence
Laurel had on her own life:

   At that time I was pretty vulnerable.  There were problems in my church,
   my father had just been brain-damaged in a severe accident.  My brother
   was going through a very traumatic time, and my husband and I were
   having trouble in our marriage.  I had two small children, and I was
   extremely unhappy.  For me, I'm very interested in music.  She
   accompanied me when I sang.  She was giving my daughter piano lessons,
   and we started being friends.
      She was very happy, always laughing, always very up.  And gradually
   ... manipulation is what it is.  Where I was the weakest, that's where
   she worked her way in, and I was so involved.  She tried to separate me
   from my mom and dad, and at one point actually told them I didn't need
   them anymore, she'd take care of me.  She began to manipulate things so
   I was really putting distance between myself and my husband, more and
   more and more.  And then I felt trapped.
      How could I extricate myself from this awful mess I'd gotten into?
   For me, it got so bad that my way out was, "I cannot deal with any of
   this anymore, I'm never going to get free."  The scariest part about it
   was that it seemed so normal, "I'll just go to sleep and never wake up
   again."  I took every pill in the house.  I had a bottle of sleeping
   pills, I had a bottle full of pain tablets, another of valium, and I
   took them all.
      My family discovered me in time.  I had to spend some time in a
   mental hospital, but the Lord saw me through.  I think she was scary
   fifteen years ago ... and she still scares me.  She does not, she really
   doesn't know the truth.  I suspected there were others she used like me.
   Thank you, Lord, because I did find out in time.

   Through the latter part of the 1970s Laurel's physical and emotional health
deteriorated, incapacitating her from full-time work.  She was able to live on
the small amount state disability paid plus offering private music lessons.
Laurel spent much of her time hospitalized.  When Friend One from the Hemet
Assembly of God church visited her in the hospital in the late 1970s, Laurel
seemed helpless, physically and emotionally.  She told her friend she had a
"rare blood disease shared by only nine people in the world." [48]

   In 1978, Willow and her family visited Laurel at 2401 Christmas Tree Lane
in Bakersfield.  Willow described the meeting as short and strained.  Laurel
was distant and explained she had been very ill and in and out of the
hospital.  She kept repeating that she had a new family now.  "I got the
feeling she was telling us she didn't need me or Mother," Willow recalled.
This was the last time Willow saw or heard from her sister.

                    THE YEARS BEFORE _SATAN'S UNDERGROUND_

LAUREL read _Stormie_, [49] a book chronicling author Stormie Omartian's abuse
as a child, and contacted Omartian.  Laurel and a close friend, Sherry DeLynn
Williams, began a support group for women called Victims Against Sexual Abuse.
The local Bakersfield press covered the group's activities, and author Joyce
Landorf Heatherly invited Laurel to be a guest on her radio program.  Laurel
talked about child and spouse abuse and related her own stories. [50]

   In 1985 the Bakersfield area was rocked by charges concerning a large
ritualistic child abuse ring operating in Bakersfield.  The story received
national media attention.  At that time, Laurel was giving private piano
lessons to the child of one of the Bakersfield investigators, Sgt. Bob Fields.
[51]  At one point she contacted Colleen Ryan, the District Attorney handling
prosecution of the case.  Ryan told us, "She called me a couple times .... I
don't really remember what her link was, except she was somehow entwined with
the two women [defendants] in the case." [52]  Ryan's office and the
investigators found her testimony useless. [53]

   Laurel then met Pat Thornton, a foster mother caring for some of the
children whose family members were implicated in the child abuse case.  Laurel
told Pat she had personal knowledge of what was going on and was afraid for
her life.  Pat told us:

   For a short period of time, I was like Laurel's mother.  She would call
   me at all hours of the day or night, hysterical, and I had to drop
   everything I was doing to go to her or at least talk her through her
   hysteria on the phone.  She almost consumed my life.  It was very
   difficult for me, because I was trying to help the children I was caring
   for, too.  It was like she was another one of the kids.

   During this time Laurel _first_ began mentioning satanism as part of her
story.  According to Laurel, she was still being harassed and threatened by
satanists (this would have been in 1985 and 1986).  In fact, she claimed they
were still picking her up late at night and forcing her to watch their
rituals, including ritual child abuse.  She told Pat this as the basis for her
inside knowledge of the Bakersfield cases.  There was no Victor in Laurel's
stories to Pat.  Instead there were two men, "Elliot," who was the leader of
this massive ritualistic abuse and pornography ring; and "Jonathan," to whom
she had been a "love slave" for many years.

   Laurel told Pat that Jonathan had branded her forehead with a circular red
hot brand so everyone would know she was his love slave.  That's why, Laurel
said, she always wore bangs to cover her forehead--even though Pat couldn't
tell the scar from typical forehead wrinkles.  One night, Laurel called Pat
hysterically claiming that Jonathan had run her off the road in a murder
attempt. [54]

   One of the most macabre stories Laurel told Pat was that she had a cassette
tape of her son Joey's death screams during the satanic ritual in which he was
killed, and a black-and-white photograph of baby Joey that had been taken
after his death.  Laurel never showed Pat the picture or let her hear the
tape, explaining they would upset Pat's sensitive nature.

   Concerning Laurel's own history, Laurel claimed she had become pregnant for
the first time when she was fourteen, and that the many scars on her arms were
caused by the pornographers and satanists torturing her.  Laurel said her
father had died in 1983, and his death had freed her from the hold the ring
had on her--but it took almost three years for her to realize it and finally
try to break away. [55]

   Laurel said she also had personal knowledge of the McMartin Preschool
ritual child abuse case in Manhattan Beach, California, near Los Angeles.  She
wondered if Pat knew anyone associated with that case.  In the spring of 1986
Pat introduced Laurel to Judy Hanson, an investigator who was working with
some of the parents in the McMartin case.  Judy described her first meeting
with Laurel:

   She told me she was terminally ill and in very great pain.  She had a
   wheelchair in the back of her car and she was using oxygen.  Her
   apartment was immaculate.  During our conversation, she told me the pain
   was too much for her to continue.  She had me get a bottle filled with
   thick white liquid out of the refrigerator for her.  She told me it was
   morphine for her pain.  I didn't notice any difference in her speech or
   actions after the medicine.
      Laurel claimed she'd been abused as a child, and had been trapped in
   this ritual child abuse ring, both in Bakersfield and with the McMartin
   group in Los Angeles.  She said she could give us names, places, dates,
   and events, but that she was afraid of physical harm or even death at
   the hands of the ring if they suspected she was talking. [56]

   Laurel gave Judy a manuscript containing her stories, and a tape of two
Joyce Landorf Heatherly shows she appeared on.  According to Judy, she
arranged for Laurel to record her experiences in a video tape done by Bob
Currie. [57]  Bob, one of the parents whose children were involved in the
McMartin abuse case, had been looking for a credible adult witness or victim
to give support to the children's testimonies.  The video was made in multiple
sessions at a Bakersfield motel.  Respecting Laurel's concerns about her own
safety, Bob never revealed more than her mouth and chin in the video.

   After the taping was completed, Bob took the video home.  But he never used
it.  Other McMartin parents who saw the video or who were present during the
taping told us they agreed with Bob: "Laurel's story wasn't credible."  We
asked parent Leslie Floberg why she distrusted Laurel's story concerning the
Manhattan Beach activities.  She replied:

   That's just it.  She seemed to be telling us exactly what we wanted to
   hear.  Whatever we thought was happening, she said she had witnessed it.
   She described most things in very general terms.  The only things she
   described in detail were incidents that had already been described in
   detail on a recently aired CNN television special about our case.
   Somebody who knew nothing about the case, but who had watched that
   television program, could have given us as credible a "testimony."

   We asked Pat Thornton, who was present during the taping, why she didn't
believe Laurel's video:

   She didn't give concrete, specific, testable details that hadn't been
   reported in the news.  It was almost like she felt safe in repeating
   what we already knew from other sources, but she didn't want to say
   something new we could test.  I got the feeling that she didn't really
   have any firsthand knowledge.

   The stories Laurel told on the video for the McMartin parents are very
different from the stories in _Satan's Underground_.  In the video she said
that both of her parents, mother and father, were involved in pornography and
satanism.  She told how, when she was a child, even after her father left
home, the three of them would meet at the satanic abuse rituals.  She said
that she lived in the basement of a farmhouse with farm animals (the same
animals she was forced to pose with for the pornographic pictures).  Laurel
explained her many scars by saying that her mother forced her to pleasure her
sexually, and that if she did not do so quickly enough, her mother would take
razor blades and slice her arms and legs to punish her.  Laurel also explained
that she had spent two years of her life in a warehouse on Wilshire Boulevard
in Los Angeles with other "baby breeders," where she had two children killed
in ritualistic snuff films. [58]

   All six parents who witnessed the video and/or its filming attested to us
that she said she had participated in an ongoing lesbian relationship with
Virginia McMartin, then the star defendant in the McMartin preschool case.
They also agree that she claimed to have been present while ritual abuse of
children went on.

   According to Bob Currie, he provided the access Laurel wanted to Johanna
Michaelson, Christian author of _The Beautiful Side of Evil_.  (Michaelson had
talked briefly with a few of the McMartin parents.)  After Laurel became close
to Johanna, she asked for her video back from Bob..  Bob hand-delivered the
original video to Johanna.  Laurel then broke off all communication with Judy
Hanson, Pat Thornton, Bob Currie, and the other McMartin parents involved.
Only a few months later, Laurel's story of _Satan's Underground_ was published
by Harvest House with Johanna Michaelson's strong encouragement.

   Johanna Michaelson admitted to us that she had viewed the video, including
the segment concerning Virginia McMartin.  She first explained to us that the
legal ramifications of the McMartin story were too complex to deal with, but
when we asked point-blank if she believed the lesbianism story, she replied,
"I don't know."  We asked if it seemed odd to be unsure if Laurel's McMartin
story was true, yet believe totally in and help publish another equally
fantastic tale from the same source.  Johanna did not answer the question.
[59]

   Parent Leslie Floberg concluded our conversation in an angry outburst.
"Put this in your magazine; I feel raped by the so-called Christians who've
promoted Lauren Stratford as a victim just like our children."

               WHAT PROOF EXISTS OF LAUREL'S TESTIMONY?

OUR inclination has always been to give Laurel the benefit of the doubt, to
presume her story was true until proven otherwise.  If Laurel's story were
true, many people would be wholly ignorant of the torment she had lived
through.  There would also be details which could never be verified on paper
or other documentaton.  Yet at the same time, there would be a number of
mundane details that couldn't escape outside notice.  As we proceeded, we used
this basic principle: if a person proves trustworthy in the "normal" details
of their lives, it is easier to trust them when they make claims about events
which cannot be verified.

   There were two considerations:  First, what evidence exists or would exist
if Laurel's story is true?  In other words, can her story be verified?
Second, are there any evidences or facts which contradict or cast doubt on her
story?  Can her story be falsified?

   One more thing must be said.  We believe that when extreme or extraordinary
claims are presented as objective truth, the burden of proof lies on the
claimant to give evidence of what he or she affirms.  This should especially
hold true for Christian authors and publishers.  In our opinion, _Satan's
Underground_ manifestly falls into such a category.

   From the beginning, we were led to believe that substantial validation of
Laurel's testimony exists.  Laurel's book contains a moving portrayal of how
safe she felt when Hal Lindsey publicly warned satanists to stay away from her
because he had the goods on anyone who might retaliate. [60]  (Johanna
Michaelson, however, told us that Hal was "bluffing" when he said this. [61])
Laurel claimed she had passed the untold facts (e.g. Victor's name, etc.)
along to people like Johanna Michaelson and Ken Wooden. [62]  Harvest House
told us they possessed documentation more than sufficient to prove her story.
[63]

   However, the most stunning element of the true Laurel Wilson story is that
no one even checked out the main details.  When we contacted Laurel's mother,
sister, brother-in-law, cousin, church friends--in fact, anyone who would have
known Laurel during the book's most crucial years--we were shocked to discover
that, in nearly every case, we were the first people to have contacted them!
[64]

   We had a lengthy conversation with Laurel, asking for any documentation of
her story.  She told us that many parties, including Johanna Michaelson and
ohters "from the U.S. Justice Department on down," had advised her not to give
us anything.  She then warned us that further research on our part would be
futile.  "The trail's been cold for over twenty-five years," she said.  "You
can't hope to find confirmation now." [65]

   In our conversation, Laurel said John Rayben was one of her advisers and
implied he was from the Justice Department.  Johanna Michaelson and Lyn
Laboriel (a kind woman who believes Laurel's story) also used Rayben's name as
a defense for Laurel's story.  So we called him.  Rayben actually represents
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, a respected
organization which is not an agency of the U.S. Department of Justice, nor any
federal office.  Raybe also disavows being on any advisory board, much less
Lauren Stratford's.

   "I have never seen any objective documentation for Lauren's story," he
stated, and "I do not consider her story credible."  He told us Laurel had
called him in September, asking his advice on whether she should provide us
with documentation.  Rayben asked her what kind of documentation she would
provide.  She said the problem was that "she didn't have names, dates, places,
etc."  Rayben's reply was, "Well, you can't very well give it to them, can
you?" [66]

                      "PLEASE SHOW US THE EVIDENCE"

SINCE we had already (twice) attempted to confront Laurel with our questions,
we felt our only remaining Christian duty was to Harvest House, Laurel's
publisher.  Upon contacting them, we explained that the evidence we had
collected was virtually overwhelming, and asked them as responsible publishers
to carry the burden of proof.  "Please show us the evidence which led you to
publish _Satan's Underground_."

   For instance, we asked them if it was possible to produce an eyewitness to
any of Laurel's pregnancies.  If we accept that Laurel had three children by
brutal rape, whose births were unrecorded and who had been secretly killed,
she still had a "public" life which included attending high school and
college, church attendance, and playing concert piano.  Since her pregnancy
would have to have been "showing" during her high school and college years,
there should have been an abundance of witnesses.  After all, first one should
have proof that a child existed before asking others to believe that the child
was murdered.  Eileen Mason, editor-in-chief at Harvest House, informed us
that Laurel "could not produce such a witness."

   It strains one's credulity to think that no one would notice a teenager who
was pregnant three times, yet never ended up with a baby.  Remember, this all
supposedly took place in the late 1950s or early 1960s, while she was singing
with Pentecostal church groups, attending Christian schools, and living with
family members other than her mother.  In reality, at least ten people who
knew her quite well during that time are emphatic: Laurel was never pregnant
during her teens or early twenties.

   Harvest House explained what they felt constituted proof of her testimony.
They had a three-part test:  (1) several staff members talked with Laurel at
different times and got the same stories from her, and all of the staff
members were impressed with her sincerity;  (2) they talked with "experts" who
confirmed that such things have happened to others; and  (3) they gathered
character references for her from her supporters. [67]

   These tests can establish consistency and plausibility, but they are not
tests to establish the validity of actual historical events.  Over the past
ten years, we have heard stories from several "victim impersonators" that
paralleled those of real drug dealers and cult members, but this similarity
was not proof that the victim impersonator's particular story was true. [68]

   On the other hand, we know that Laurel's book conflicts with known history,
and over the past twenty years, she has not only given contradictory stories,
but those who knew her testify that she has been disturbed and manipulative.
If genuine evidence for the major facets of Laurel's testimony exists
anywhere, we are still willing to examine it.  In light of the inability of
those supporting Laurel's story to provide such evidence, the overwhelming
weight of our evidence must stand.

   As believers, our concepts of ethics and truth should be higher, not lower,
than those of the secular press.  When a publisher issues a testimony which he
knows is likely to be sensationalistic, we believe he is obligated to ask what
constitutes verification of that testimony.  Certain claims and assertions
require greater validation than others.  This is not to lay all the blame at
the doors of Harvest House.  Other Christian publishers have recently released
equally sensationalistic "survivor stories."

   Though publishers have the responsibility to test a story before offering
it to the public, we as readers are also accountable.  If we exercised the
gift of discernment more often, publishers would be persuaded to offer books
that can stand the test.  As individual Christian readers, we cannot
investigate every questionable testimony.  However, we should encourage the
publishers whose books we buy to do that job for us.  It is not wrong to
question a story which initially seems fantastic and offers no corroboration
or documentation.

   This article is not a condemnation of Laurel Wilson.  Though we don't know,
and may never know, the true causes of her problems, Laurel evidently has been
emotionally disturbed for most of her life.  Emotionally disturbed people
should receive compassion and empathy from their friends and other Christians,
and constructive, biblical therapy from Christians whose special gifts are
conuseling. [69]  Laurel Wilson needs her Christian friends to comfort her in
her distress, to love her enough to commit themselves to helping her resolve
her problems according to biblical principles.  The story of _Satan's
Underground_ is not true, but Laurel's emotional distress is real.  Our prayer
is that she gets the help she needs.

   However, when Laurel Wilson wrote _Satan's Underground_ and Johanna
Michaelson and Harvest House promoted it, the story stepped from the world of
therapy to the world of testimony.  _Satan's Underground_ has become the
basis, the foundation, for Lauren Stratford's authority as an expert on
ritualistic abuse and as a counselor of other victims.  Because the story is
not true, the foundation is illusory, and her expertise and counseling
qualifications are nonexistent.

   That is why this investigation had to be conducted, and this article had to
be written.  As Laurel's old friend who nearly ended her own life told us, "I
don't want to see her counseling anyone.  If she counsels other people as she
did me, there are going to be a lot of people in real trouble." [70]

----------
Sidebar:

C O N T R A D I C T I O N S

* HER FATHER:  Variations in stories ... Frank Cole Wilson was her natural
father/left home when she was four/she didn't see him again until she was
fifteen/he was present at satanic rituals she attended throughout childhood/
had an incestuous relationship with her/was part of the satanic and
pornographic ring/died in 1983.  The truth is, he was her adoptive father,
left when she was eight or nine, and saw her many times in the intervening
years, during vacations and holidays.  Christian doctor who died in 1965.

* HER MOTHER:  Often called stepmother.  Stories of mother's abusive behavior
have varied from physical only to sexual/selling Laurel into pornography/
prostitution/satanism.  In truth, mother adoptive, strict Christian woman who
sometimes had temper.

* HER SISTER:  Laurel has claimed to be an only child/in 1975 claimed sister
named Betty "wants to either put me in a mental institution or kill me."  Real
sister, Willow, a missionary.  Laurel raised with Willow, lived with her, her
husband, and family during high school.

* ABUSE:  Laurel says 1985 first time able to admit she was abused.  Yet
multiple accusations of abuse over thirty years against mother/father/brother-
in-law/school personnel/lesbian church members/pornography and prostitution
rings.

* SATANISM: 1985 first mentioned involvement with satanism, after two major
satanic ritual abuse cases became news.  This contradicts all her previous
abuse stories.

* HER SCARS:  Blamed on mother/pornography/prostitution leaders/and/or
satanists.  Actually three people observed her cutting herself, others told by
Laurel her wounds were self-inflicted.

* HER "CHILDREN":  Various stories: she's sterile/had two children killed in
snuff films/three children killed, two in snuff films, one in satanic ritual/
says she had children during teenage years/her twenties/lived two years in a
breeder warehouse.  In reality, no evidence she was ever pregnant.

* RITUAL INVOLVEMENT:  States in _Satan's Underground_ ritual involvement
ended after her father's death (1965)/vs. story of involvement in satanic
rituals through 1985-86 (McMartin ring and others).  Truth is no proof found
for any involvement.

* CHILD PORN:  States in _Satan's Underground_ she was involved in child porn
films and magazines during the forties and fifties.  According to FBI expert,
child porn films and magazines were all but nonexistent during this time. [71]

----------
Photo captions:

1. Frank, Laurel, Rose, and Willow Wilson.
2. Infant Laurel and Rose.
3. Laurel at 14 years (1955).
4. Willow's 11th birthday (Laurel second from right).
5. Car license dated 1947, two years after _Satan's Underground_ says her
   father left Laurel behind.
6. Laurel in her late teens, Laurel's birth certificate.

----------

Endnotes:  1. Lauren Stratford, _Satan's Underground_ (Eugene, Oreg.: Harvest
House Publishers, 1988).  2. Bob Currie, in conversation with us. Note: we
interviewed dozens of persons in the course of research for this article. In
most cases, we talked with people several times, and double-checked our
quotes. To avoid confusion, we do not list the exact dates of conversations in
this article. The reader is safe to assume that the conversations took place
between 7 September and 10 November 1989.  3. Stratford, _Satan's
Underground_, 17.  4. _Satan's Underground_ is one of the most sexually
explicit and violently graphic contemporary Christian books we know.  Those
descriptions are not necessary in this synopsis.  5. Including being drugged
almost continually.  6. Lauren says she was never a satanist because she had
become a Christian as a young child and was only at the rituals because she
was forced to be.  7. Stratford, _Satan's Undergound_, 114.  8. And managed to
finish her college education.  9. According to Pierce County adoption records,
on file. Marriage records show that Marrian Disbrow married Carl H--- one
month later.  10. According to Pierce County birth certificate, on file.  11.
According to hospital records, on file.  12. Some non-crucial details have
been omitted to protect certain persons' privacy.  13. Statement dated 9
September 1989, on file.  14. Willow, in conversation with us.  15. Years
resident in Calif., listed on his death certificate, on file. Frank and Rose
never divorced, and Frank left a substantial portion of his estate to Rose as
his wife.  16. Willow, in conversation with us.  17. Washington State Music
Teachers Association Auditions, Spring 1949, on file.  18. Copies of her grade
school, junior high, and high school report cards are on file.  19. Her father
had moved to Calif. six years earlier.  20. Willow and Willow's husband, in
conversation with us.  21. Documentation on file.  22. Enrollment confirmed by
Seattle-Pacific.  23. Willow and Marie Hollowell, in conversation with us. 24.
Willow and Billie Gordon, in conversation with us.  25. Laurel's mother, Rose,
in conversation with us.  26. Enrollment confirmed by Redlands.  27. Reverend
Boone, formerly of First AG Church, Rialto, in conversation with us. 28.
Billie Gordon, in conversation with us.  29. She told the same story to
"Friend Two."  30. Billie Gordon, in conversation with us.  31. "Friend One,"
in conversation with us.  32. Record confirmed by University of Redlands
Registrar and Alumni Office, on file.  33. "Friend One," in conversation with
us. 34. San Bernardino County death certificate and probate record, on file.
35. Confirmed by Riverside County marriage certificate record, on file.  36.
Information supplied by Frank Austin, "Friend One," and "Friend Two."  37.
"Friend One," in conversation with us.  38. Confirmed by the Hemet School
District Personnel Office.  39. Picture on file.  40. Confirmed by the
California Commission on Teacher Credentialing.  41. Confirmed by "Friend
One," "Friend Two," and the Archers, a couple involved at the Hemet AG Church.
42. Ken Sanders, Willie and Delpha Nichols, in conversation with us.  43. Ken
Sanders, in conversation with us.  44. Delpha Nichols, in conversation with
us.  45. "You've Done So Much For Me Lord" and "Beholding His Beauty,"
copyright 1972; "He Owes Me Nothing," copyright 1973. On file.  46.
Information supplied by Ken Sanders, Reverend David Joiner, and "Friend
Three." According to her church membership card, Laurel had previously been a
member of Glad Tidings Assembly of God in Mira Loma, Calif., near San
Bernardino.  47. Flora Rheta Schreiber, _Sybil_ (New York: Warner
Communications Company, 1973).  48. "Friend One," in conversation with us. 49.
Stormie Omartian, _Stormie_ (Eugene, Oreg.: Harvest House Publishers, 1984).
50. Information supplied by a tape of Joyce Landorf Heatherly Programs, and
from additional comments Laurel taped at home concerning statements she made
during the program which were not aired.  51. Confirmed by Bakersfield
Sheriff's Dept. Lt. Brad Darling and Sgt. Fields in conversation with us.  52.
Bakersfield District Attorney Colleen Ryan, in conversation with us.  53.
Information provided by Brad Darling and Colleen Ryan.  54. Pat didn't get out
of bed.  55. Pat Thornton, in conversation with us.  56. Judy Hanson, in
conversation with us.  57. Our conversation with Bob covered a lengthy meeting
in person as well as by telephone.  58. Information from video corroborated by
a number of McMartin parents and (partly) Johanna Michaelson.  59. Information
supplied from two and one-half hour phone conversation involving Randolf and
Johanna Michaelson, Jon Trott, and Bob Passantino, on 20 October 1989.  60. On
his television program, as quoted in _Satan's Underground_, 166.  61. Johanna
Michaelson, in conversation with us.  62. Laurel Wilson, in conversation with
us.  63. Eileen Mason, in conversation with us. She told the skeptical John
Stewart of KKLA (30 March 1988), "We have plenty of evidence in many places."
64. Apparently no one considered the fact that, if Laurel is not telling the
truth, her mother and family become the abused.  65. Laurel Wilson, in
conversation with us, 22 September 1989.  66. Chuckling, John Rayben
concluded, "I would have liked to see that documentation myself!"  67. Eileen
Mason, in conversation with us.  68. One such impersonator was "escaping the
Moonies." She lived with us, and her story was so good it took us a month to
discover she was not 16 years old, but 30, and had never been a Moonie.
Later, she appeared on _Oprah Winfrey_ as a victim of Multiple Personality
Disorder. More recently, we ran across her while she was trying to convince a
church group that she was an adult survivor from a satanic cult!  69. The
therapist doesn't initially have to know whether or not the story is true,
only that the person is hurting and needs help.  70. "Friend Three," in
conversation with us.  71. (See "Contradictions" sidebar.) Information
supplied (enough for an article in its own right) by FBI experts Ken Lanning
and Homer Young.
-- 
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, [email protected]

FROM THE FOOL FILE:
"In any religion or form of worship, followers should be allowed to think
 for themselves.  In every religion that has a god other than Jesus Christ,
 adherents are not allowed to think for themselves."
    -- Lauren Stratford, "Satan's Underground"

From: [email protected] (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Ritual child abuse -- the role of MICHELLE REMEMBERS
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 30 Jul 90 18:14:16 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Tim Maroney)
Organization: Electronics for Imaging, San Bruno CA
Lines: 127
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Maroney) writes...
>>It turned out that a lot of [the similarity of stories in the McMartin
>>case] had to do with the fact that [children and prosecutors] developed their
>>stories in consultation with Michelle Smith, subject of the fraudulent
>>book MICHELLE REMEMBERS.
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Mike Morgan
in Colorado Springs) writes:
>    Tim, is there a published critique of MICHELLE REMEMBERS?
 
There are some critical reviews, but the book was published so long ago
that I couldn't tell you where to find them; perhaps the READERS' GUIDE
TO PERIODICAL LITERATURE and newspaper indices could help you.  Oz Tech
uploaded a review to WeirdBase, as I recall, but I can't seem to find
it at the moment.  Robert D. Hicks deals with the subject in his paper
"Satanic Cults: A Skeptical View of the Law Enforcement Approach, also
available on WeirdBase.  Here's the relevant passage:
 
 
      Satanic Cults: A Skeptical View of the Law Enforcement Approach
 
                                 Rev. 9/89
 
        Adapted from a presentation given at the llth annual crime     
    prevention conference of the Virginia Crime Prevention Association, 
                    Chesapeake, Virginia, June 23, l989
 
NOTE:  The views expressed herein are those of the author and do
not necessarily reflect opinions of the Department of Criminal
Justice Services or the Commonwealth of Virginia.
 
Robert Hicks
 
Criminal Justice Analyst/Law Enforcement Section
Department of Criminal Justice Services
805 E. Broad Street
Richmond, Virginia 232l9
804-786-842l
 
    Cult officers cite two prime examples of the work of traditional 
 satanists:  cult survivors' stories and child abuse cases.  Cult
 survivors  are the offspring of satanic parents bred to a life of abuse
 and witnessed  murders.  The prototype survivor is Michelle Smith who,
 with her  psychiatrist husband, Lawrence Pazder, wrote Michelle
 Remembers (l980).  By  her own admission, Smith endured a rough,
 unhappy childhood with a violent,  alcoholic father.  After years of
 psychotherapy with Pazder, a new story  emerged.  Without prompting,
 Smith entered a trance in which she regressed  to a childhood persona. 
 In that persona, she told of ceremonies she had  witnessed replete with
 black candles, black drapes, goblets, dismembered  bodies, sexual
 abuse, having dismembered baby limbs rubbed on her,  imprisonment in a
 snake-infested cage, confrontations with red spiders, and  watching
 satanists rend kittens with their teeth.  And all of this through  the
 introduction of Michelle to satanism by her mother.  Some curious loose 
 ends remain, though.  Smith's father denied the incidents, Smith loved
 her  mother very much, as did her two sisters, not mentioned in the
 book, who  never witnessed any satanic involvement.  One sister has
 been deeply  distressed at Smith's representation of her mother.  Not
 mentioned either  was the Catholic Pazder's divorce, Smith's conversion
 as a Catholic and her  own divorce in order to marry Pazder, practices
 frowned upon by the  Catholic Church, yet the book extols Catholic
 ceremonies and ritual as a  way to combat Smith's terror./23 
 
    Nevertheless, Pazder reacts to the lurid stories of his patient
 thus:   "'I happen to believe you. . .for many reasons . . .but mostly
 for what I  feel with you.  It feels real. . .I think the way you are
 expressing the  experience is very touching.  It is authentic as an
 experience."/24   Remember, this is a psychiatrist's talk, not a police
 officer's.  Feeling  the authenticity of Smith's experience may aid a
 physician's clinical work.   Police officers must approach such stories
 differently. Smith is cited as a  Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD)
 sufferer, a complex phenomenon that  afflicts some genuinely abused
 people, but not others.  For a fuller  clinical description consult the
 DSM-IIIR, or Diagnostic and Statistical  Manual of Mental Disorders,
 third edition, revised, l987.  Recent research  even reveals that
 distinct physiological changes accompany personality  changes in MPD
 sufferers.  Such changes include rapidly appearing and  disappearing
 rashes, welts, scars, switches in handwriting and handedness, 
 allergies, vision changes and even color blindness.  Such symptoms
 might  easily confuse and alarm an investigator.
 
    The preoccupation of cult officers with MPD sufferers presents
 police  with some contradictions.  On the one hand, police cite the
 growing number  of cult survivor stories and their sameness as evidence
 of the satanic  underground (that is, people who have never met telling
 identical tales).   Yet most MPD sufferers, usually young women, do not
 present verifiable  stories.  None has yielded physical evidence of
 crime other than  physiological symptoms which are part and parcel of
 MPD anyway. Hypnosis  for police purposes produces no results.  MPD
 sufferers can take years to  interview to ascertain even a few facts. 
 
    But another interpretation of cult survivors' claims can be offered.  
 As Ken Lanning has noted, he has been unable to find accounts by cult 
 survivors of Smith-like tales before the publication of her book.  The
 mass  media have fanned Smith's experience through the tabloids and TV
 sets of  the world, supplemented by the slasher films and television
 shows that  produce quite creative and believable monsters.  Some MPD
 sufferers  describe ceremonies and rituals that can only be traced to
 fiction since  many of them have no historic derivation.
 
    Stories of ritual abuse (that is, abuse committed incidental to a 
 ritual as a form of propitiation, as cult officers use the term)
 present no  new phenomena, as folkorist Jan Harold Brunvand has
 described in his  popular books about urban legends, The Choking
 Doberman (l984) and The  Mexican Pet (l986).  Stories of abduction and
 mutilation of children, plus  regular appearances of Satan pervade
 European and American history.   Brunvand describes urban legends as
 "believed oral narratives," though not  necessarily believed wholely by
 their narrators all of the time.  Some  stories are rumor, or "plotless
 unverified reports" as opposed to the  legend, or the "traditional
 believed story." Most importantly, "urban  legends. . .often appear to
 be 'new' when they begin to spread, but even  the newest-sounding
 stories may have gone the rounds before.  A 'new urban  legend,' then,
 may be merely a modern story told in a plausible manner by a  credible
 narrator to someone who hasn't heard the story before, at least  not
 recently enough to remember it."/25 
 
    23/Things that go bump in Victoria.  Maclean's, October 27, l980. 
 
    24/Smith, M. and L. Pazder. Michelle Remembers, Congdon and Lattes,
 Inc.,  New York, l980, p. l93-4. 
 
    25/Brunvand, Jan H. The Choking Doberman and Other "New Urban
 Legends" W.  W. Norton, New York, l984, p. 4-5.  --  Tim Maroney, Mac
 Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, [email protected]
 
"`Truth' never set anyone free.  It is only *doubt* which will bring
 mental emancipation."
        -- Anton LaVey, quoted by Arthur Lyons, SATAN WANTS YOU

From: [email protected] (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Ritual Abuse Debunked.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 24 Aug 90 13:16:28 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service
Lines: 67
 
 
    A letter, by Prudence Jones, 21 Shelly Gardens, Cambridge, in
 response to the 8th August article "Child Abuse linked to Satanic
 Cults" was published by the Guardian on 16th August. It is longer than
 I wish to type but here is a summary of the main points with amy
 comments I have to make in brackets.
 
	1) All the evidence to date argues that no child abuse is linked
	   to such cults
 
	2) The Satanic child abuse scare was started by fundamentalist
	   protestant groups in the US as part of their well documented
	   campaign to discredit all other spiritual paths, and has since
	   spread over here, organised by sibling groups and partly funded
	   from the US
 
	3) No US psychiatric patients "remembered" cultic abuse before the
	   publication of the book "Michelle Remembers". Incest and child abuse
	   were well documented but never with ritualistic overtones. None
	   of the "devil worship survivors" featired in tabloids before 1980
	   mentioned ritual child abuse.
 
	4) The four proven cases of "ritual" abuse proven in the UK courts
	   since 1980 involved child molesters using ritualistic trappings
	   -in one case those of the church of England- as part of their
	   kinky turn on. None of these people were paracicing occultists
	   of any description. They were paedophiles who used dramatic 
	   rituals for sexual excitement and to impress and terrify their
	   victims. 
 
	5) In contrast there have been scores of Christian Clergymen,
	   at least 33 convicted cases, who have misused their authority
	   (She seems to be saying by indulging in child abuse but the
	    wording is not explicit A.K) and perverted their victims
	   spirituality in an equally reprehensible way.
 
	6) Child abusing black magicians do not exist, Imaginative
	   psychatric patients (and Gullible shrinks A.K) certainly do, as
	   do sectarian pressure groups wanting to defame other forms of
	   spirituality.
 
	7) Sensationalist headlines with credulous reporting of unproven
	   allegations could encourage copycat crimes and scarce resources
	   could be diverted away from the banal reality of real child
	   abuse towards a wild goose chase after some minority religion
	   which might act as a scapegoat for social outrage at the
	   prevalence of child abuse. ( I mailed Tim a description of the
	   Cleveland affair showing what might happen, as it has not 
	   bounced back to me I assume Tim got it.)
 
	
    I don't know whether this letter was also published in the sport,
 and I don't know why the media do not try to contact pagan
 organisations for a counterview before publishing these stories (I
 suspect they probably don't want to ruin a sensational headline with
 the truth). A few days ago I saw a resume of highlights from the Cook
 Report, an investigative TV journalism programme, in which he mentioned
 these allegations as having been investigated some years ago. It was
 interesting to see that compared with the hard evidence of his other
 investigations, the evidence on this topic was one sided (A priest, a
 shrink and a director of social services) and contained neither hard
 evidence, or a counterblast. I  look more skeptically at his other
 investigations.
 
	Now there seems to be no doubt about the nonexistence of ritual
child abuse (except probably privately in the christian churches), it
is necessary to decide what to do about the myth: Ignoring it will not
help it go away.

From: [email protected] (Mike Morgan in Colorado Springs)    
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Media abuse of minority religious groups
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 15 Aug 90 18:11:23 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 62
 
......
 
    From what I believe to be the Star (taken from a zerox copy), dated
    7/5/90 and 7/6/90... (These are not complete transcriptions. The main
    body is included, details of the crimes are not.)
 
    ************************
    'SATAN DISCIPLE' ADMITS RAPE
 
    DOUBLE rapist Richard Yeats, a Jehovah's witness who acted as "a
 disciple for Satan" was yesterday sentenced to eight years' detention
 by a judge at Clemsfork Crown Court.
 	
    The 19-year-old builder from Timperleys, Littlehampton, West Sussex,
 had pleaded guilty to two rapes within two days at Colchester in 1987.
 
    He was not tracked down until he confessed to a fellow believer
 during Bible studies class two years later. His mother was told about
 the confession and she called detectives, said Mr. Martyn Levett, for
 Yeats.
 
    Mr Justice Jupp told the court that attacks were "quite terrible".
 "Although the psychiatrists could not agree on whether you are a danger
 to women, I conclude that you are," he told Yeats.
 
    An earlier hearing was told how Yeats, who had once lived in
 Colchester, said he took his orders from the Devil and was asked to
 seek out a blonde for his second victim.
 
    SATAN RAPIST CAGED
 
    SEX beast Richard Yeats chanted "Satan, Satan" while he raped two
 girls. The 19 year-old Jehovah's Witness, described by one of his
 victims as a lookalike of the pop star Rick Astley, claimed he was
 having sex for Satan.
 
    ********************
 
    What are the facts here? A young man, a practicing Jehovah's Witness
 for two years, raped two girls and blamed it on Satan. He wasn't
 willing to be responsible for himself. He passed the blame along.
 
    My speculations: In my reviewing of some 200 instances of people
 abuse by Christians it becomes rather obvious that the Christian
 religion warps the mind by "mortifying the natural man," ie. killing
 the libido (before church sanctioned marriage).  This warpage does not
 heal, it stays there to fester and manifest itself days, months or
 years later. Thus I presume that such outlandish claims as an
 'underground Satanic network of baby killers' and 'Satanic group of
 foetus eaters' are a projection upon a weakly defended religious
 minority of what some Christians greatly fear in themselves.
 

    Reply to .0, The Reverend (with tongue in cheek),

    If I have my ducks in a row Satanic philosophy (along with it's sibling
    Luciferian philosophy) is the foundation of western philosophy and
    science. Didn't know that?

    What do I base this upon? In mythology the Gods and Goddesses are
    static with respect to technology. Yes, there are some deities which
    symbolize smithy-work, arts, music and whatnot, but there is no
    Christian, Moslem, Jewish, neo-Pagan, nor pagan mythology which is
    *forward* looking to man's next great home in the stars. None of them
    predicted that the human animal would surpass all the Gods in putting
    several men on the moon, development of nuclear power and weapons,
    computers and very large scale architecture, the future event of putting
    men on Mars, the present event of sending probes to the various
    planets, or the imminent arrival of nanotechnology. Those are features
    or conditions which are expected in a Luciferian or Satanic framework.

    For the present one can define Satanism as the *opposition* to man's
    natural estate (of ignorance) and Luciferian as the light of a bright
    human future pouring into our verbal and written frame of reference.

    Living well, indulging as I please, is the best revenge.

However, the Gods do have their revenge. Beware Hubris my
son.

	-- Charles

    
    Thank you, Charles. I no longer have the energy to try to enlighten the
    deliberately ignorant.

    Oh well, I just got back from seeing a damned fine country band, so...
    
    Eddie Spenser thought the Irish should be exterminated and never quite
    got over being ruled by a woman, so he's not exactly Mr. PC.
    
    Besides:
    
    "The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and
    at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of
    the Devils party without knowing it." -- William Blake

    Sure, there are frauds. There are frauds in every field. Including the
    mental health field and religion.
    But it bears repeating, ...
    in the article quoted in 666.4, 7 psychotherapists in Ohio reported 20
    cases of Satanic cult abuse.
    

    Re:            <<< Note 666.41 by ESGWST::RDAVIS "Available Ferguson" >>>
    Besides:
    
  >  "The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and
  >  at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of
  >  the Devils party without knowing it." -- William Blake

    There seems to be a fine literary Satanic tradition in Blake and Shaw.

> Sure, there are frauds. There are frauds in every field. Including the
> mental health field and religion.
> But it bears repeating, ...
> in the article quoted in 666.4, 7 psychotherapists in Ohio reported 20
> cases of Satanic cult abuse.

I don't think they were frauds. I think they were mistaken.

Are you familiar with the concept of a "meme?" Think of it as a "conceptual
virus" a free floating concept that has the capability of grabbing people's
conciousness and attention. Think of it as crystallized zeitgeist if you will.
I believe "Satanism" and "Ritual Satanic Abuse" is/are such a meme. People's
imaginations have been captured by the notion of a giant Satanic conspiracy, and
given that, honest people can and do find what they're looking for.

That doesn't make it "real." It means that, especially when dealing with
impressionable people - children, people who are mentally ill, the problem of
"projection" is very very real. A questioner, unless they are very very careful,
will get the answers they "want."

Another possiblility is that raised by the "Satan's Underground" expose. There
are people out there, who will take advantage of sincere dedicated professionals
for their own personal ends. Some of these people actually believe what they
are saying, and so are quite convincing. That doesn't make it true. Cases like
this should be investigated carefully, and NOT taken at face value. Right now,
I know of NO cases of "Ritual Satanic Abuse" that have been carefully
investigated and found to be anything but fraud, unverifiable, or simple abuse.

There is a lot of hysteria, hearsay, and sensationalism around this subject, and
very few hard facts. Those hard facts point not to some gigantic conspiracy, but
rather a self perpetuting system of rumor, innuendo, and lies.

	-- Charles

    

<I know of NO cases of "Ritual Satanic Abuse" that have been carefully
<investigated and found to be anything but fraud, unverifiable, or simple abuse.
    
    What category do you place the 20 cases reported by the 7 seven
    therapists in 666.4?
    
    

    Re:  <<< Note 666.46 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

><I know of NO cases of "Ritual Satanic Abuse" that have been carefully
><investigated and found to be anything but fraud, unverifiable, or simple abuse.
>    
>    What category do you place the 20 cases reported by the 7 seven
>    therapists in 666.4?
 
    As has been said to you in another conference, you simply *cannot* take
    the shrinks at their word. Even they are unaware they've been infected
    with the meme.   
    
    Then there's always the religious bias of the therapist to take into
    consideration.
    
    Beware language's power to create something out of the thin air of
    nothing.

    As far as the Mark of the Beast is concerned we *all* wear that mark
    imprinted in our genes.
    
    There is only 2% to 3% genetic difference between chimps and humans.

    <you simply *cannot* take the shrinks at their word. Even they are
    <unaware they've been infected with the meme.   
    
    My god, what a conspiracy! The shrinks are infected and they don't even
    know it. A whole profession full of Typhoid Marys. 
    
    As to religious orientation, there is a strong ethnically Jewish
    segment in the therapy community. Is that the religious conspiracy you
    had in mind? Or is it the fundamentalist religion?
    
    Actually, I would be surprised if participatory religion of ANY kind is
    an important part of the therapy community.
    
    hmmmm wonder what the definition of paranoid is?

    in re .48
    
    It's actually close to 1% genetic difference.
    
    and in re the cases reported by the psychiatrists, I don't think that
    any one can answer that without more data than has been given here.
    
    

    <and in re the cases reported by the psychiatrists>
    
    answer what?
    
    
    

    What category you place the 20 cases reported by the 7 therapists
    in 666.4 in.
    
    There is no independant coroboration of the 20 cases, to assure
    that they were indeed satanic abuse or simply a case of being
    infected by a 'meme'.

    re .-1 etc
    
    bullshit
    when did this all of a sudden get to be a scientific experiment?

What category do I place them in? I thought I answered that already.

Anyway, to turn it back to you - if they WERE ritual satanic abuse, why were
the abusers not prosecuted? Is there any independent corroborative evidence?

I believe that the therapists probably honestly believe that their patients
were ritually satanically abused. I also believe that they are mistaken.

By the way Herb - a "meme" is not really a "thing" it's an *idea*. The books
on Urban Legends explain it pretty well.

	-- Charles

> when did this all of a sudden get to be a scientific experiment?

The minute you expected anyone to take it seriously.

	-- Charles

    Could someone explain what a "meme" is so I don't have to read a
    book on urban mythology?  Thanks.
    						- Vick
    
    
    

    I don't accept the premise that prosecution is a criterion of truth.

> I don't accept the premise that prosecution is a criterion of truth.

	"What is truth? It is the man who stands before you."

I don't accept the premise that the unsupported word of people with an axe to
grind is a criterion of truth.

	-- Charles

    Now tell me, dear Charles, who has a bigger ax to grind on this
    
    7 therapists in Ohio or
    
    You.

    that's obvious...
    
    7 therapists in Ohio, Charles is doing some debunking but it isn't
    his personal 'axe' or cause.
    
    and Herb, I saw absolutely no reason for you to use profanity in
    response to my reply

    Who has a bigger ax to grind on this, Charles

    Robert Mayer PHD (see 666.14)
    or You

    Who has a bigger ax to grind on this, Charles

    Dr. Robert Kinscherff (see 666.17)
    or You

    Who has a bigger ax to grind on this, Charles

    Dr David K. Sakheim (see 666.17)
    or You

    Re:  <<< Note 666.59 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

  >  Now tell me, dear Charles, who has a bigger ax to grind on this
  >  
  >  7 therapists in Ohio or
  >  
  >  You.
    
    The seven therapists probably are sincere but mistaken.
    
    Charles, since he is a participant in this and other conferences, has a
    vested interest in supporting *his* opinions. This is what you have
    mistaken as having an axe to grind.
    
    I submit that the "seven therapists in Ohio", since they are not
    particiants of this discussion, have no interest either way. In fact,
    by now, they may have changed their minds altogether.

    re .60
    
    a) he can speak for himself
    b) sorry, i got carried away

Not quite true Bonnie. It's very clear that I DO have an axe (or athame) to
grind, so does Herb, and so do the therapists. Anyone reading any of this should
take ANY of our unsupported statements with a large grain of skeptical salt.

My point is that those therapists reports are being accepted unquestioningly by
people like Herb, and that in fact such reports do not seem to hold up to
careful scrutiny. However you don't really debunk urban legends by taking each
individual instance and showing that that instance was false, because it is the
nature of such things that there will *always* be "yet another story" that needs
debunking.

No, the only way to really lay this kind of thing to rest is to "uplevel" the
discussion - to show these stories for what they are, modern folk tales to
instruct, frighten, and amuse, but with no "real" basis in fact. The danger
lies in them being taken as fact and used to harass, terrorize, and oppress
those groups which by virtue of their "non-mainstream" nature are vulnerable
to such hysterical attacks.

It is that protection which is MY axe.

The null hypothesis is that there is no gigantic satanic conspiracy. It is up
to those who claim otherwise to prove their claims, and they should expect that
any sensational claims made will be subjected to intense skeptical scrutiny,
and so be all the more prepared to back up their sensational claims.

This they have not done, and I claim they CANNOT do - since their claims are
false at their base.

	-- Charles

    Charles,
    
    I understand where you are coming from. I've taken a similar position
    in regard to the annual 'blue star' scares. I guess I don't regard
    speaking out for truth and accuracy and common sense in the face of
    hysteria an 'axe to grind'.
    
    Bonnie

    Reply to .56, Bennison,
    
    Memes:
    
    A meme (which rhymes with theme) is a bit (or system) of information
    which has a potent effect upon the human *psyche*; an idea with
    emotional hooks. It may or may not have a distinct, physical reality.
    
    Imagine catchy tunes you can't get out of your head, words of poetry so
    true they come to life, the image of a sports car so alluring that
    million purchase it, a rumor so jucy that no one can resist passing it
    on. Then you get the idea. 
    
    The Bad Guy:
    
    Everyone loves a good conspiracy, either in the office on in
    Washington. Almost everyone knows Satan is the big bad guy (there just
    has to be a bad guy, right?). Thus anyone who defends the bad guy must
    be a follower of the bad guy (the big bad guy just has to have big bad
    followers, right?).
    
    Human Truth:
    
    The meme of the big bad guy in red togs, pointed tail, and horney head
    is all too simple and displays prominently the work of a dualistic
    mind; that is the mind of a simpleton.

    that feels like a jab at me
    
    Perhaps you would care to point out where in this discussion I - or any
    of my sources- have been hysterical.

Bonnie, my interest is a bit more proprietary than an abstract support for
truth, justice, and the American Way. (Though I DO support those.) I have an
interest in defending non-mainstream religions against the attacks of the
ignorant and the bigotted. I have many very dear friends who belong to such
religions, and I have quite a bit of sympathy for them myself.

It is precisely this kind of hysterical attack which has gotten friends of
mine arrested for carrying the symbols of their religion (the athame I mentioned
in my previous note for example.)

No, my interest in this particular subject is more direct that an abstract quest
for truth and justice. I'm defending the right of people to worship as they
please, and to be free from harassment by those who disagree. None of my
friends practice any kind of animal sacrifice, yet they are constantly subject
to the kinds of slanders and abuse that we have seen here.

It stinks. I hate it, and I will continue to fight it.

That said, it in no way invalidates my argument - a point Herb seems to have
missed. Whether or not *I* have an axe to grind is completely, 100% irrelevant
to whether or not the stories by the Ohio therapists are true or not. The fact
that my motives in pointing this out are not entirely altruistic does not
diminish the fact that THEIR motives are suspect and their arguments are
questionable.

Clear?

	-- Charles

    Re:  <<< Note 666.63 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

  >  re .60
  >  
  >  a) he can speak for himself
  >  b) sorry, i got carried away

    No problem. It's sometimes a very good Satanic (as in indulgent) thing
    to get carried away. It shows you're really interested.

    I applaud you. 

    I take back what I said in reply 666.62.
    
    }B^)

    Herb,
    
    It was not a jab at you, please try and remember that people do write
    in here in response to other motivators than what you write. I regard
    a lot of the responses to 'satanism' and 'blue star' (lsd) to be
    irrational and bordering on the hysterical. People get all up in
    arms about something that with a certain amount of rational
    investigation would be easily proved to be false.
    
    Don't go around trying on shoes to see if they fit, please.
    
    Bonnie

    I have an interest in defending mainstream psychotherapists against the
    attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted. 

    Are you implying that Charles and Mikie Morgan are 'ignorant and
    bigotted'?
    

> I have an interest in defending mainstream psychotherapists against the
> attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted.

And your interest in Ritual Satanic Abuse is purely coincidental?

As for the so called attacks - where? Point them out - to borrow a phrase. I
have said, and Mike has said, repeatedly that we believe the psychotherapists
are honest but mistaken. If that's what you call an "attack" then I believe my
use of the word "hysterical" (as in uncontrollable fear) is entirely
appropriate.

In any case, that is a rathole. The subject was and is Ritual Satanic Abuse not
Ritual Psychotherapist Abuse. What did you think of the "Satan's Underground"
paper?

	-- Charles

    re: <<< Note 666.73 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

   > I have an interest in defending mainstream psychotherapists against the
   > attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted. 
    
    Your article does not appear to be mainstream.
    
    Perhaps the seven therapists have something in common we don't know
    about? Perhaps they are all Christian? Would a non-Christian therapist
    attribute Satanic mistreatment to a client? I think not.
    
    I remember several years ago that there was a substantial amount of
    unsubstantiated reports on Satanism in Ohio. I remember one county
    sheriff was upset that there were so many Satanists around that they
    controlled his little town.
    
    Needless to say, if it is true that everyone seems to want to find a
    witch to burn, there was no further comment on any particular report
    which could lead one to believe that the reports were anything but
    hysterical to start with.
    
    Now if you want real abuse please check the Clergy Abuse topic in
    GRIM::Religion. There you will find (taken from the nations newspapers
    and court records) some 100+ instances of Christians abusing their
    children and others.
    
    Just remember, you can't say the devil made you do it. B^)

    FYI....
    
    Channel 5 news in Boston this morning reported that the Massachusetts
    Humane Society announced yesterday that no black cats or kittens will
    be allowed to be adopted 2 days prior to Halloween and 2 days following
    Halloween. They are considering other animals and will make an
    announcement Friday. It was reported (Susan Burke) that Satanic and
    Occult rituals require a blood sacrifice and that there is a growing
    concern about the increasing number of cult groups in the state.
    
    Please don't argue with me....call the station.
    
    Ken
    
    

I've heard it's more because teenagers think it's "funny" to kill cats and use
them for Halloween pranks.

				Steve

    My response to .74's response to .73 
    was a cribbed response using the text of .69 by Charles
    
                <<< QUARK::NOTES_DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MENNOTES.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Topics Pertaining to Men >-
================================================================================
Note 666.69          Mark of the Beast or Mark of the Best?             69 of 79
OXNARD::HAYNES "Charles Haynes"                      28 lines  22-OCT-1991 16:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Bonnie, my interest is a bit more proprietary than an abstract support for
<truth, justice, and the American Way. (Though I DO support those.) I have an
<interest in defending non-mainstream religions against the attacks of the
<ignorant and the bigotted. 
    
    which I slightly paraphrased as
    "I have an interest in defending mainstream psychotherapists against
    the attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted."
    
    
    				herb
    

    So Herb, you are saying that Charles and Mikie are ignorant and
    bigoted?

    when you ask Charles the same question, I will answer your question
    

    re .72
    <Don't go around trying on shoes to see if they fit, please.
    <
    <Bonnie
    
    thankyou, mummy

    okay,
    
    Charles are you and Mikie ignorant and bigoted?
    
    BJ

    re .76

    <your article does not appear to be mainstream>
    					^^^^^^^^^^
    I fell in love with the symmetry of the response and got carried away,
    again. I do not know whether the two authors of the article cited in
    666.4 or the 7 psychotherapists being reported in the article, or the
    PHD cited in .14, or the PHDs/MDs/Psy Ds cited in .17 & .18 are
    'mainstream'. In addition I do not know the credentials or
    mainstreamness of the other people cited in .17  
    
    Bottom line 

    7 Ohio psychotherapists (who may or may not be 'mainstream')  of unknown
    credentials report 20 people who have been abused by Satanic cults.

    In addition, three PHDs/M.D.s/Psy Ds (who may or may not be
    'mainstream') of equally unknown credentials have either written a
    book, or given a seminar on Satanic cults.

    That is the extent of my primary information. 
    
    As I said in another conference, I believe it is quite likely that the
    number of people who have been hurt by Satanic cultists is small.

    I have no information indicating the percentage of Satanic cults that
    practices illegal activities on either animals or humans. I have no
    reluctance in accepting the notion that the percentage is small.

    I'm sorry if some innocent people have been hurt as a result of
    inappropriate Satanic cult scares.

    Appropriately or inappropriately I feel comfortable using the
    information i cited above to conclude that some innocent people have
    been hurt and are continuing to be hurt as a result of inappropriate
    Satanic cult activities.
    
    				herb

    the question I felt you should be asking is
    "Charles are you saying that Herb is ignorant and bigotted"
    
    And that question would have been motivated by the following...
    
================================================================================
Note 666.69          Mark of the Beast or Mark of the Best?             69 of 79
OXNARD::HAYNES "Charles Haynes"                      28 lines  22-OCT-1991 16:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonnie, my interest is a bit more proprietary than an abstract support for
truth, justice, and the American Way. (Though I DO support those.) I have an
interest in defending non-mainstream religions against the attacks of the
ignorant and the bigotted. 

Bonnie - I beleive Herb is quite ignorant as to the true nature of
non-mainstream religions. His actions appear bigotted to me, but I have no real
information about what he actually believes. I think he is sincere in his
belief in "Satanic Ritual Abuse" but I believe that belief is based on an
unreasonable fear fed by a self perpetuating media circus.

I have approximately 12 more articles on Satanism, ritual child abuse, and MPD,
but they are quite long so I am somewhat reluctant to enter them. To summarize,
the articles on Satanism all indicate that there is no evidence to support
the claim of a giant Satanic conspiracy, and that in fact such stories are
generally unfounded upon examination. The stories on ritual child abuse focus
on the McMartin preschool incident and show that there is not only no evidence
for ritual abuse in that case, but compelling evidence that the questioners
created the ritual abuse aspects of the case themselves by the questions they
asked. The articles on MPD do not mention Satanism or ritual abuse, but do talk
about the fact that MPD appears to be closely correlated with continuing heavy
abuse during childhood and is a dissociation reaction. There is argument as to
just how prevalent it is. The stories about just what kind of abuse MPD patients
have suffered are absolutely horrific. One case involved a young girl who was
repeatedly tied up and left in a burning apartment while her mother waited for
the fire trucks.

I can easily believe that a therapist facing such horrifying evil would find it
easy to blame an external agency. It's almost incomprehesible that anyone
could inflict such absolute horror and evil on a small child. Satan makes a
convenient explanation, perhaps even an unavoidable conclusion if you are a
believer. From that to a Satanic conspiracy of humans is a very small step.
Unfortunately the next step - ascribing Satanic influence to all non-mainstream
religions is an equally small step.

	-- Charles

    re. 87
    I just have to reply here.  In Chris Sizemore's book, "A Mind of My
    Own" she states that 80% of people diagnosed with MPD were victims of
    severe childhood sexual abuse.  There is more and more evidence being
    compiled that ANY kind of ritual abuse can cause MPD.  MPD is a very
    clever way to deal with the horrors of childhood abuse.  After reading
    through this string last night I spent an hour looking for a newsletter
    that I have that cites some statistics on ritual satanic abuse.  It
    also has articles written by men and women who grew up in that kind of
    environment.  
    
    What I have heard in here is the common denial that this stuff really
    doesn't happen.  It does happen, the statistics of adults coming
    forward with all kinds of childhood abuse are growing.  Whether you
    want to believe it or not, it does happen and it does happen more
    frequently than any of us would like to think or believe.
    
    Karen

> 80% of people diagnosed with MPD were victims of severe childhood sexual
> abuse.

Agree.

> There is more and more evidence being compiled that ANY kind of ritual abuse
> can cause MPD.

How did you get from point A to point B Karen? I don't see any connection.

> MPD is a very clever way to deal with the horrors of childhood abuse.

Agree.

> What I have heard in here is the common denial that this stuff really
> doesn't happen.  It does happen, the statistics of adults coming
> forward with all kinds of childhood abuse are growing.  Whether you
> want to believe it or not, it does happen and it does happen more
> frequently than any of us would like to think or believe.

I believe that systematic abuse, severe abuse, continual abuse does in fact
happen and can lead to MPD. I deny that "Ritual Satanic Abuse" plays *any*
significant role. There is just no evidence, and what evidence there is points
in exactly the opposite direction. The hysteria around "Satanism" dilutes and
distracts from the absolutely essential job of stopping this abuse.

	-- Charles

Just though I would add my views on benign Satanic cults and mainline
Christianity and mainline Judaism.

Since I have been old enough to remember being told I wasn't going to
heaven -only Catholics did; since the time in grammar school when I was
forced to go to religious training -everybody in Boston did; since I have
been old enough to hear Jews be called Christ killers; since I have been
old enough to know that I couldn't eat -or even mention- shell fish in
front of certain people; since I have been old enough to hear about black
magick and conical black hats, I have considered Satanists no more crazy,
and no less crazy than followers of Christianity and Judaism. A plague on
ALL their houses.

My belief is not based on an unreasonable fear.

I promise you, I -and I believe virtually ALL mental health workers- would
much rather believe that _all_ cases of Multiple Personality Disorder have
the same etiology as Trudi Chase's (When Rabbit Howls) namely a bizarrely,
horrifically sick step-father, rather than a bunch of autonomous cults spread
throughout the country. It _is_ frightening. I would MUCH rather it were not so.
I don't LIKE the fact that it is true. I want it to be false.

The information I cited earlier from more than 10 different therapists who
have personally treated victims of Satanic cults. Some in Ohio, some in
Connecticut, some in Rhode Island, some in Massachusetts, some in Maine.

My conclusions are based on the information I have cited. I have no more.
Take it or leave it.

		I have nothing more to say.

I hope that others are sophisticated enough to realize that you don't
improve your argument by charactizing me as bigotted, or ignorant, or a
dupe of a self perpetuating media circus.

    Reply to .88, Karen,
    
    Ritual abuse is abuse of ritual.
    
    Pet abuse is abuse of pets.
    
    Child abuse is abuse of children.
    
    The term you are looking for is "ritualized" or "ritualistic" abuse.
    The proof that these people don't know what they are talking about is
    evident in their language when they employ the term "ritual abuse"
    instead of "ritualized" or "ritualistic" abuse.
    
    Language's road signs tell us the tale.

what obscene nonsense are to trying to foist on us, Morgan?
What kind of distorted logic are you trying to slip by us.

To say they couldn't possibly know what they are talking about because they
don't pronounce it correctly makes about as much sense as accusing my next
door neighbor of never having eaten asparagus because she pronounces it
aspergus. 

I hope that Karen has enough sense to ignore that little bit of idiocy.

    Re: <<< Note 666.90 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>
 
  >  I promise you, I -and I believe virtually ALL mental health workers-
  >  would much rather believe that _all_ cases of Multiple Personality
  >  Disorder have the same etiology as Trudi Chase's (When Rabbit Howls)
  >  namely a bizarrely, horrifically sick step-father, rather than a bunch
  >  of autonomous cults spread throughout the country. It _is_ frightening.
  >  I would MUCH rather it were not so. I don't LIKE the fact that it is
  >  true. I want it to be false.

    Now you're going to say that all this trouble is because of sick step
    fathers? Michelle Smith of MICHELLE REMEMBERS did something similar.
    How about sick mothers? Can a MPD occur without abuse? Can an emotional
    imbalance occur without abuse?

  >  The information I cited earlier from more than 10 different therapists
  >  who have personally treated victims of Satanic cults. Some in Ohio,
  >  some in Connecticut, some in Rhode Island, some in Massachusetts, some
  >  in Maine.
    
    I thank you for entering that info. Please be advised that such
    information needs independent verification. 

    Re:  <<< Note 666.92 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

  >  what obscene nonsense are to trying to foist on us, Morgan? What kind
  >  of distorted logic are you trying to slip by us.
  >
  >  To say they couldn't possibly know what they are talking about because
  >  they don't pronounce it correctly makes about as much sense as accusing
  >  my next door neighbor of never having eaten asparagus because she
  >  pronounces it aspergus. 
   
    I think that people who spend a large amount of time in school, writing
    papers, reports and whatnot should probably know something of the
    syntax of the english language.
    
    I suspect that many who employ the term "ritual abuse" are not trained
    therapists but rather "state approved" counselors (like Tim Maas of
    Seaview Counseling, Inc.) who read a few books,  toss out a shingle
    and start piling up MPDs generated by Satanic abuse. 

    re .93
    
    Yes, MPD does occur without abuse.  Chris Sizemore (who is the actual
    person from Three Faces of Eve) became a multiple after witnessing 3
    very gruesome deaths at the age of 2. No, it was not satanic abuse. 
    These were accidents that occurred on a farm.  As her situation
    illustrates, severe trauma caused her to disassociate. Not child abuse.
    
    Karen

> OOOOH! I get the gist of this note.

Glad to hear it.

> What Charlie and company are trying to teach us today is all of us folks here
> in New England,

and anywhere else.

> who have burnt witchs, worlocks, and other Statanical practioners to cut that
> out.

That's right.

> And quit going to those Young Repubican rallys where we will get bad ideas.

I don't care what you believe or why, just what you do.

> Even though we have seen a bunch of goofs going around sashing folks,
> maming, killing cats, and stuff.

"Sashing?" is that ritual defenestration? So you've seen these goofs have you?
When and where? You offered to enter details of that police case...

> Those guys are not the real Satanical folks. Bunch of imitators.. Right??

As far as I can tell, yes, precisely.

> Gee, didn't know that the good ones wear white hats and the bad ones wear
> black hats in this day and age.

I'm not surprised. You haven't a clue. How can you tell a good Christian from
a bad one?

> But, guess its gonna be a slow weekend, sitting around listening to Richard
> Nixon's missing min's in his tape.... Wow? What am I gonna do for fun?? :)

Sash someone, or maybe mam them?

	-- Charles

    Reply to .92, Nichols,

    We'll maybe I shouldn'a said it that way. Maybe I shoulda said "You'd
    think those finely tuned, well oiled and illuminated minds would know
    that child abuse is abuse of children, pet abuse is abuse of pets and
    ritual abuse is abuse of ritual. Well maybe they aren't so finely
    tuned, well oiled and illuminated after all."

    And maybe some of us are just human and we make mistakes.  Since it
    offends you so much would you like me to delete it and correct it?  
    
    Karen

    Well, "ritual" is a perfectly good adjective and "abuse" is a card
    carrying noun.  Don't see what's wrong with "ritual abuse" meaning
    "abuse having to do with a rite".  Certainly "ritual murder" is
    commonly used by the press and they don't mean "the murder of a
    ritual".  It seems silly to quibble over syntax anyway, when what
    was meant was patently obvious.
    
    						- Vick

And so?

	-- Charles

        <<< Note 666.82 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

    when you ask Charles the same question, I will answer your question

    Reply to .100, Vick,

    Penis abuse is perfectly good also, but this topic is not about
    masturbation. (Though some might accuse some others of mental
    masturbation. B^)

    The point is to be as clear as reasonable in one's language.

    Reply to .99, Karen,
    
    No thanx, I like to do my own laundry.

    Re:  <<< Note 666.84 by WMOIS::REINKE_B "all I need is the air...." >>>

  >  okay,
  >  
  >  Charles are you and Mikie ignorant and bigoted?
    
    Charles, you gonna' solve this indelicate puzzle for us? B^)

    <Now you're going to say that all this trouble is because of sick step
    <fathers? Michelle Smith of MICHELLE REMEMBERS did something similar.
    
    No, that was not my intent. 
    <How about sick mothers? 
    Yes
    <Can a MPD occur without abuse? 
    Yes
    <Can an emotional imbalance occur without abuse?
    Yes
    
    I feel that your response was nit-picking, and a good example of
    juvenile debating.
    I do not consider that your comments merit further replies on my part.

    >The point is to be as clear as reasonable in one's language.
    
    "ritual abuse" was perfectly clear.  The part that wasn't clear to
    me was why you had a problem with it.  Arguments based on someone's
    grammar or spelling usually imply there is little else there.  There
    is absolutely nothing ambiguous (usage-wise) or incorrect
    (grammar-wise) in saying "the ritual abuse of children".  Anyone who at 
    first might think this means the abuse of ritual that children commit, 
    should quickly laugh at his/her silliness and not make their mistake 
    public.  
    
    "penis abuse" is not a parallel case, because "penis" is never an
    adjective.  "ritual", however, is an adjective, as well as a noun.  So, for
    example, "penis nose", as in "you have a penis nose" must mean that 
    you have a nose that looks like a penis, whereas "ritual nose", as in 
    "for the ceremony she wore a ritual nose" (which might or might not 
    resemble a penis) does not mean that the nose looks like a ritual, 
    but rather that the nose somehow pertains to a ritual.
    
    					- Vick

    <the part that wasn't clear to me was why you had a problem with it.
    In my opinion, he was trying to gain some stupid little debating point.
    As if, somehow, earning such points somehow makes one's presentation
    more powerful.

    furthermore, he was wrong as well as irrelevant
    Survivors of Incest Anonymous a non-profit organization for the
    specific purpose of providing a 12-step kind of support environment
    for victims of incest and other forms of sexual child abuse uses the
    words 'Ritual Abuse' throughout its literature. 
    If one consults 666.17, 666.18 one discovers that the term 'Ritual
    Abuse' is in very common parlance even among professionals. The terms
    are used interchangeably there, with "Ritual Abuse' much more common.
    Indeed, David K Sakheim, Phd a licensed clinical psychologist is
    co-editor of a book with the title
    
    	Darkness and Light: Satanic and Ritual Abuse Unveiled.

    Reply to .107, Nichols,
    
    ..and I thought you were going to ignore me. Pity I thought that. B^)

    Reply to .106, Victor,
    
    Your point is well taken. My point is and always has been, since this
    witch-hunting started several years ago, that ritual abuse is a poor
    term.

	Since Nichols is going to give me some room, I'll take that room and up
you two dens...

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        In File 18 many accusations and allegations are made. These
    allegations are quasi-legal in nature. I think we need to ask some
    quasi-legal questions in return.
        
        Is there any evidence?
        
        Have there been or are there any current investigations by local
    authorities? Sometimes authorities will say that an investigation is on
    going but won't comment.
        
        Have there been any indictments?
        
        Have their been any arrests?
        
        Have there been any confessions?
        
        Has there been any convictions?
        
        Has there been an sentencing?
        
        Now for some evidence, investigations, indictments, arrests
    confessions, convictions, and sentencing... These are highly
    abbreviated articles compiled by the Freedom From Religion Foundation
    and reprinted in "Freethought Today".
        
        Idaho Statesman 4/21/88...
        Father Mel Baltazar, notorious for molesting a boy hooked up to a
    kidney dialysis machine at a Napa, Calif. hospital and another boy in
    double-leg traction at a Boise hospital wll be paroled from his 7 year
    prison term. A 20-year history of unprosecuted abuse was unraveled
    during his trail in 1984.

        No source listed...
        Milwaukee Archbishop Rembert G. Weakland claimed, in writing about
    molesting priests, that "Sometimes not all adolescent victims are so
    "innocent"; some can be sexually very active and aggressive and often
    quite street wise."
        
        The Specator 5/9/88 and Amherst Daily News (Novia Scotia)...
        A clergy seminar of child sexual abuse and incest at Brock
    University, Ontario, Canada, concluded that the church is implicated in
    such abuse. Vince Pinpura, a social worker at St. Catharines General
    Hospital, said 8 of 10 members of an incest counseling group connected
    the church with incest; one was abused by a father who was a
    minister... Another woman told of the anguish of being sexually abused
    by her clergy father from the age of two., the congregation blind to
    her pain, and another preacher telling her "just to forgive." A nun
    warned of misusing "bogus spirituality."
        In June, a Canadian women's inter-church group released a study.
    Hands to End Violence Against Women, sying male-dominated churches,
    Christian theology and selective interpretation of scripture are at
    least partly to blame for violence against women.
        
        Atlanta Constitution 4/15/88
        The clergy is required to report suspected sexual abuse of children
    in only 5 states, Miss., Ore., New Hamp., Conn. and Nev. However 16
    other states implicitly require clergy reporting.
        Yet there is no known case of a district attorney prosecuting a
    minsister for failutre to abide by mandatory child abuse reporting
    laws.
        Several prosecutors have considered prosecution of non-reporting
    clergy, including DeKalb County District Attorney Robert Wilson. The
    R.C.C. in in the eastern Atlanta suburb is accused of a coverup for not
    reporting suspected molestation by Rev. Anton Mowat, even after
    victims' parents alerted them to the abuse last fall, and two priests
    had conveyed similar suspicions a year earlier. {The loop hole is that
    if the priest or minister is teaching or counseling they are obliged to
    report. If the child simply reveals sexual abuse to ministers ie.
    confessions, they are not obliged.}
        
        Atlanta Constitution 4/15/88
        Former priest turned psychologist A.W. Richard Sipe, Baltimore,
    said a 25 year study he conducted shows that about 2% of all priests
    "show sexual excitment by fantasizing about or engaging in sexual
    activity with children." (Rev Thomas Doyle has projected that the
    figure may be as high as 3,000--one out of 18 priests or 16 per
    diocese--which is closer to 6%.)
        Catholic apologists deny any complicity in covering up illegal
    activities.
        
        Atlanta Constitution 4/15/88
        Being a Catholic priest is "one of the best positions you can be go
    into [if you are a pedophile]. What better position could you be in to
    win peoples trust?" says Sharon Moody, commanding officer of the Crimes
    Against Children Unit for the Cobb County Police Department, Georgia.
        
        Columbus Ledger-Enquirer 5/28/88
        Rev. Tony ("Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm")
    Levya, a southern revivalists investigated by the FBI for heading a
    3-man ring prostituting young boys, has used Christian radio station
    WEAM in Columbus, Ga.  to raise funds for his defense. Rev. Levya asks
    his followers to "sacrifice $100, $500, $1,000, $8,000 , even more, if
    God speaks to you" for his defence.
        Federal authorities allege that his crusades gave him and fellow
    abusers Rias E. Morris, organist, and Rev. Freddie M. Herring
    oppurtunity to sexually abuse numerous boys in Virginia, Georgia,
    Florida, North Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Ohio and
    Indiana. He faces up to 65 years in prison and $550,000 in fines.
        
        

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        Seattle Post-Intelligencer 3/23/88
        The notorious Community Chapel & Bible Training Center, a sect
    based in Burien, Wash. near suburban Seattle, not only mentally abused
    children with doctrines of demonology and stunted education in their
    backward and repressive classrooms, but involved children in sexual
    abuse, according to reporter Mary Rothchild. The Center, beseiged by
    civil suites by ex-members claiming abuse, including women charging
    sexual exploitation, recently deposed it founder Rev. Donald Lee
    Barnett on charges of promiscuous adultry.
        In 1986, after followers complained, Child Protective Services met
    with Burien officials, spelling out guidlines, for example, that the
    church policy condoning French kissing of children was unacceptable.
    Three counselors were convicted of failing to report child sexual abuse
    in 1987.
        
        New York Times 5/23/88, New York Daily News 5/27/88, Newsweek
    5/30/88, Denver Post 5/20/88, Newsday 6/11/88
       Rev. Thoma Streitferdt, 59, a white Pastor in charge of the mostly
    black 700-member True Church of God in Harlem, was charged with rape
    and sodomy of two young sisters (ages 14 and 16) in his congregation.
        Law enforcement officials charge that Streitferdt told females
    worshippers that they could end up in hell if they refused his sexual
    advances, and raped at least one woman during premaritial counseling.
        Although his congregation was working class, Streidtferdt lived in
    a 1.4 million waterfront estate on Long Island, and owned property
    financed by contributions illegally coereced from church-goers. He and
    his family had exclusive rights to drive three church-owned
    Mercedex-Benz autos. Yet his tax returns in 1987 listed income of just
    several thousand dollars.
        The church required members to turn over tax records, and to tithe
    10 percent as a condition of membership, increasing that tithe to 30
    percent every third year. He also controller the finances of many of
    his members by keeping their savings at a bank set up through his
    church. Members were told that if they were not buried under church
    auspices at an additional fee in the church cemetary that "they would
    not go to heaven."

        San Gabriel Valley Tribune 6/18/88
        Rev. Randall Wayne Brewer, a youth minister of Faith Community
    Church in West Covina, Calif.,  is charged with 3 counts of oral
    copulation with a Redlands teenager who said he was bribed and molested
    after being befriended at home Bible studies in 1985. The youth, now
    17, testified that Brewer gave him $200 from a church checking account
    for running naked across an empty church hallway in a game called
    chicken. "I was told  to tell everyone that I got the money for doing
    work at the church."       
        Embarrassment prevented the boy from reporting the incidents, but
    he finally confided in his girlfriend and his mother. A trial is
    scheduled in mid-June.
        In May the family filed a multi-milion dollar suit against Brewer
    and the chruch for failure to tell new members that others had been
    previously abused. Brewer had previously plead no contest to "sexually
    annoying" another boy and had been placed on probation.
        
        Washington Post 5/13/88
        U.S. Rep. Floyd Flake, pastor of Allen Africian Methodist Episcopal
    Church in New York, and a first term Democrat, is accused of harassing
    a church assistant into leaving her job because she ended a sexual
    affair with her.
        Thelma M. Singleton-Scott complained that a panel of "elders" at
    the 4,000-member church held a "kangaroo court" review of the charges
    in January. She is now demanding back wages and Flake's ouster as
    pastor. She said that the church bishop was involved in offering her
    hush money.
        
        Amherst Daily News (Novia Scotia) 6/16/88, The [Hamilton] Spectator
    6/14,16/88
        Msgr. John Monagahan, 80, of Nelson, B.C., was sentenced to 4 years
    in prison after pleading guilty to fondling 17 girls and young women
    from 1959 to 1987, ranging in age from 6 to 21, usually in hospitals or
    private homes. Many of the victims said they had told their parents of
    the assualts but were not believed because Monagahan was considered a
    "near saint."
        Nelson police say they have identified more than 50 victims.
        
        Florida Times-Union 5/13/88 and 6/9/88
        Rev. Joe Marino, host of Christian talkshow "Inner Visions" in
    Jacksonville, Fla., and youth minister/counselor at Beaches Chapel in
    Neptune Beach, plead no contest to custodial sexual battery and
    soliciting sex from a 16 year old member of his church. Other charges
    were dropped. The abuse was disclosed after a victim from the church
    had attempted suicide.
        Marino was sentenced to 15 years in prison to be suspended after 5
    years.
        A second Duval county minister, Rev. Roy Lynn Gaskins of Edgewood
    Heights Baptist Church, was accused of forcing a 13 year old boy at
    gunpoint to have sex.

        New York Times 6/10/88
        Former Mormon missionary Arthur Gary Bishop, 36, was executed on
    June 10th in Utah for killing 5 boys (ages 4-13) for sexual
    gratification, saying he was "misled by Satan."
 

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        New York Times 5/14/88
        Rev. Bernard Lynch, 41, and Brother Timothy Brady, 41, are indicted
    for sexually abusing students at a Catholic preparatory school  in the
    Bronx, Mount St. Michael Academy. Lynch, a former campus chaplain, is
    believed to be in Ireland. Brady "was removed last summer" to a Marist
    retreat in Arizona, according to the Bronz D.A.'s office.
        
        Kansas City Times 6/1/88
        Barry L. Deaton was charged with taking indecent liberties with a
    child for abducting a 14 year old girl from a gathering of Youth for
    Christ of Greater Kansas City.
        
        [Little Rock Arkansas] Gazette 6/10/88
        Rev. J.D. Henderson, 51, of Russellville, Ark., was convicted of
    molesting twin 6 year old girls, and sentenced to 4 years in prison.
    Henderson is an ordained Free will Baptist minister.
        
        Daily Camera, [Boulder, Co.] 5/21/88
        Former Sister Mary Kregar and the Catholic Diocese of Brownsville,
    Col. were sued by a man who claimed his marriage was destroyed by the
    lesbian nun who seduced his wife while church officials did nothing to
    prevent it. A jury ordered the diocese to pay 1.5 million to Steve
    Voolverton on May 20.
        
        Tampa Tribune 5/31/88
        Rev. Clevand "Rapper" Mack, 24, of Tampa. Fla., was charged with
    sexually abusing 2 young boys during "Bible lessons", including a
    charge of sexual battery which carries a possible death sentence. He
    struch a boy in the face when he tried to flee.
        
        [Rome] Daily Sentinel 5/28/88
        Rev. Leon Dupree, 47, pastor of Lily of the Valley Church of God in
    Christ in Rochester, NY, is charged with first degree sexual assualt
    and first degree burglary of a 26 year old woman. She said he was armed
    with a hammer and struck her with a screwdriver. Dupree was convicted
    of second degree manslaughter in a 1978 drunken driving fatality and
    served time in state prison.

        Sunday Messenger [Athen, Ohio] 3/6/88
        In 1978, Bessie Turner had $18,000 in the bank, $3,000 in cash at
    home, her house in Murry City, Ohio, a life insurance policy and a
    monthly income of $654. After 10 years of answering the pleas for money
    from evangelists Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Whittington, Jim Bakker, Don
    Stewart and others, she had exuasted her savings account, cashed in her
    life policy, gone hungry to send her grocery allowence to the hungry
    children invoked by the evangelests, and has nothing lest but her
    monthy income from renting her home. She  was forced to move in with
    her step grandson and wife. "I was trying to feed the children. That's
    what Jimmy [Swaggart] said. Them poor little babies. Too see how they
    looked--I could hardly take it." Now Ms. Turner, although still a frim
    believer, says: "I won't have anything to do with any of them again. I
    think they are all alike. I think they are all thieves." 

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        Pedophilia hits close to home for me. For four years I sat next to
    a RDC engineer who was abusing children and no one knew. Since the
    discovery of his abuse and his subsequent short (55 day) jail term, I
    have been a little more sensitive to things I hear about people abuse.
    Even I could not believe the confessions the man made. We just don't
    want to believe that someone is abusing people.
    
        Someone sent me this message last night...
        
        "Mikie?, you should try to locate copies of the December 30th and
    31st San Jose Mercury-News from last year. I have been told that it
    contains a most impressive expose on the subject -- thirty-five court
    cases in the last five years, and a number of attempted cover-ups.
    Perhaps somebody in San Francisco can do a library search for you --
    some libraries keep microfiche of the local papers."
        
        Anyone on the left coast want to look these articles up?
        
        There seems to be many more cases than are reported. Victims try to
    bring the various organizations round but generally get stiffed.  That
    is until the victims go public. 
        
        There is of course the ripple effect to consider also. In a recent
    tv talk show in Seattle on KING-TV, while talking about abuse by
    priests in the Seattle diosece, hosts Susan Michaels and Cliff Lenz got
    a shocker. A woman in the audience reported that she had been abused
    not by a priest but by her brother, who was abused by a priest IN THE
    SEATTLE DIOSECE. After investigation it was revealed that the priest
    was an abuse victim himself.
        
        Maryalyce Elbert was the victim of the victim. After this public
    expose' the diocese finally gave the name of the priest as Rev. James
    McGreal, age 65, whose criminal conduct was well known, having worked
    at 10 parishes and 2 hospitals. One ironic mistake leads to another
    with the priest being sent to treatment in the late 70's, after which
    he was sent to a hospital to abuse again. The priest was sent to a
    "Catholic program in New Mexico". He was then placed in another parish
    with several other priests aware of his condition. In four months he
    was suspected of grooming another boy for victimiziation. It is rather
    ironic that he was at Queen of Angeles Church in Port Angeles, under the
    supervision of one Rev. Conn, now facing charges himself for sexual
    abuse of altar boys. Rev. James McGreal abused people with impunity for
    30 years.
        
        Continuing on with the show. Sherry Matulis spoke about being raped
    at the age of 5 by a church deacon; and narrowly escaping another
    attack at the age of 12.
        
        A shakey woman in the audience told of being continuily
    incestuoulsy abuse by her father, a souther preacher who attacked her
    on saturdays nights. She had to sit in a pew and watch him preach on
    sundays. Her efforts to expose and depose her father have as yet been
    unsuccessful.
        
        Rev. Paul Conn, mentioned previously, is accused of molesting
    multiple altar boys under the ages of 14. The Church responded by
    offering counseling to the victims BY OTHER PRIESTS in the parish.

        The Seattle archdiocese has admitted to a third unprosecuted and
    unnammed pedophilic priest now under treatment for his condition.
        
        I would like to point out that all these victims spent many painful
    years trying to correct the problem. They were all stonewalled with the
    only success coming after public exposure.
                                                              

    The point of the forgoing replies is there is a substantial possibility
    that the aforementioned claims of Satanic Abuse is little more than a
    ignorantly instituted witch-hunt rubber stampted this time by
    "therapists" instead of lat time by policeman with an agenda.
    
    Just recently (in the ::Soapbox news topic) a Catholic minister has
    been arested, and arraigned for the rape of two little boys.
    
    This only about 30% of what I've got archived. There's much more, so
    much infact that some years ago I began to suspect that those who were
    hunting witches and Satanists were actually manifesting the fears they
    have of their communities and/or themselves.
    
    

> O.K. Charlie, how do we tell the good guys from the bad one in the press?

Your question is based on false premises. The press generally makes no
distinction between Satanism, Paganism, syncretic heretical Christianity
(e.g. Santeria or voodoo), and delusion. *I* label none of these "good guys" or
"bad guys" since I don't subscribe to such dualistic notions, dualism being the
heart and soul of the problem.

You can no more tell the "good guys" from "bad guys" in the press than you can
tell a "good Christian" or "bad Christian" from looking at them.

The rest of your note merely indicates to me that your knowlege of Satanism
derives entirely from things you've seen on TV or read in storybooks. That
level of knowlege, in fact, is one of the symptoms of what I've been calling
the deluded or insane "Satanists". It would be like someone who's entire
knowlege of Christianity had come from singing Christmas carols. They might know
the words, they might have a few of the symbols, but no one who knew anything
about Christianity would mistake them for a Christian.


	-- Charles

    I didn't want to bring this up, well, because I didn't want to look
    like I was riding on Charles' coat-tails.
    
    I too know people who have been hurt by this witchhunt.
    
    Three years ago I helped (in a minor way) a neo-Pagan man in northern
    Colorado who having a challenged child was falsely accused of being a
    Satanist bent on hurting his daughter. The man (with his daughter) had
    to go into hiding to keep his daughter. They eventually wound up in
    Texas where if I remember he surfaced and took his appeal to the state
    courts which upheld his defence.
    
    Locally, I helped a young family man who after shirking the relgion of
    his wife's family (Plymouth Rock Brethern) adopted neo-Paganism. At
    first his family took it in stride. But after a little while someone
    called the police on Harvey claiming that he was a Satanist going to
    sacrifice his children. Harvey then mysteriously lost his job at a high
    tech defence company. He moved his family from this city to Florida.
    Last I heard of Harvey was that he commited suicide.
    
    Witchhunts have a synergistic effect. I'd be extremely careful of what I
    say simply because what goes around comes around. See the Salem
    witch-trials to see what happens when it gets out of control. Innocent
    people of all types get hurt. 
                                 

    ..and lest I forget the most important example of religious abuse in my
    life.
    
    My wife was emotionally (continuously) and physically abused (slightly)
    since she can remember. Her parents are devout Church of Christ
    devotees whose abuse of her was largely unconscious and justified in
    their minds.
    
    That's why many non-mainstream religious persons and myself are
    suspicious of the witchhunt. It's the largely unconscious and/or
    justified aspect of the abuse. And it's something we see as being
    epidemic in Christian culture. Thus when we see reports from
    "therapist" or "policemen" we are largely skeptical because
    "therapists" and "policemen" can be unconscious in the accusations
    also.

    Folks, two questions you might ask yourselves.

    a) Do any of you believe clergy have NOT been involved in sexual abuse?
    b) Do the entries (666.111-666.113) have anything to do with Satanic
    Ritual Abuse.?

    A text search of those three entries indicates zero occurences of "Satanic"
    zero occurences of "Ritual"
    zero occurences of "Cult"
    one occurence of "Satan"  (as the last word of 666.111)

    I think that context is of the form "The devil made me do it."  Which
    arguably owes more allegiance to Flip Wilson than to Satanic Cult
    Abuse or any other Ritual Abuse.

    re: <<< Note 666.119 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>
                    -< Of course clergy are sexual abusers >-

   > Folks, two questions you might ask yourselves.

    Face it Nichols, you just can't resist, can you? }B^)
    
   > a) Do any of you believe clergy have NOT been involved in sexual abuse?
   > b) Do the entries (666.111-666.113) have anything to do with Satanic
   > Ritual Abuse.?

    The point that Charles and I have made time after time, which seems to
    fall upon your deaf ears, is that there is no proof for "ritual Satanic
    abuse." Give us independently verifiable proof and I'll be glad to
    listen, in fact I have a need to know this anyway for some other
    reasons. I want to know. Perhaps you can help, but I need proof, not
    empty, sensationalistic claims and suspicious papers from unknown
    "therapists"..
    
  >  A text search of those three entries indicates zero occurences of "Satanic"
  >  zero occurences of "Ritual"
  >  zero occurences of "Cult"
  >  one occurence of "Satan"  (as the last word of 666.111)
  
    The point I made and will make again is that I think the witchhunt is a
    projection of Christian, or Christian influenced minds.

    the boy has diarrhea of the mouth

> the boy has diarrhea of the mouth

Did that help your argument, Herb? You promised to answer Bonnie's question
when she asked me the same one. She asked, I answered. Your turn Herb, or was
your note just intended to incite?

	-- Charles

[Crossposted with permission]

	-- Charles

From the Boston Globe, 10/23/19:


Sexual Misconduct Seen as Serious Problem in Religion
-----------------------------------------------------

"Sexual abuse and sexual misconduct are among the most farreaching problems 
facing organized religion.

"Such abuse or misconduct has led senior church officials and parish 
leaders to resign, cost congregations or dioceses enormous sums in 
liability judgments and undermined confidence in religious leadership.

"The accused include some of religion's most distinguished leaders: 
Lutheran Bishop Lowell Mays and Rev. James Armstrong, former president of 
the National Council of Churches, both resigned because of extramarital 
affairs; Rev. Bruce Ritter, a Franciscan priest, left the shelter he 
founded for street children in New York because of abuse charges; 
Archbishop Alphonsus Penney of the Catholic Archdiocese of St. John's, 
Newfoundland, resigned 15 months ago because of long-term sexual abuse of 
children at institutions under his jurisdiction.

"Some of the most publicized problems have come in Catholic dioceses in 
cases where parents were exasperated by church officials who did not remove 
priests accused of sexually abusing children from positions involving 
contact with young people.

"But cases have also occurred in a variety of other religious bodies, and 
most major religious groups have recently adopted personnel policies 
intended to force supervisors to take action and not attempt to transfer 
offenders to another post while encouraging victims to remain silent.

"Yet some critics believe those policies are late and ineffective. 'It 
appears the church is more committed to protect the perpetrators and keep 
abuse secret,' Rev. Marie Fortune, author of a 1989 book on sexual abuse 
among the clergy and director of the Center for the Prevention of Sexual 
and Domestic Violence in Seattle, told a women's meeting at the Episcopal 
General Convention last July in Phoenix.

"A 1990 study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and 
Ethics in Chicago found 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair 
with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual conduct with a 
parishioner.

"A 1990 book published by Fortress Press, 'Ministry and Sexuality,' by Rev. 
G. Lloyd Redinger, asserted that 10 percent of the nations' clergy had 
engaged in sexual misconduct. In a 1990 poll, about 42 percent of women 
ministers in the United Methodist Church reported sexual harassment by 
other pastors or colleagues."

Science News for this week has an interesting article on interviewing child
abuse survivors. It disputes the common assertion that asking direct questions
results in mistaken testimony, and that children are easily lead by questions
to give false or mistaken answers.

Check it out.

The Skeptical Inquirer has also recently run a couple of articles on
Ritual(ized) Satanic Abuse and Satanic Cults.

Check it out.

The Humanist (I believe it was) has also recently run such an article.

	-- Charles

    Reply to .124, Charles,
    
    Yes, it was THE HUMANIST, SATANISM IN AMERICA, part II.  The Sept.
    issue is about a horrific witchhunt perpetrated (presumabely
    *unconsciously*) by one Tim Maas, counselor and head of Seaview
    Counseling, Inc. in Washington state specializing in MPDs and with 20
    something other counselors working under him.
    
    Tim Maas, with little credentials but a "state approval certificate"
    talked three daughters into suing their eldery mother for ritualized
    Satanic abuse. Tom Allen, an attorney, talks about the courtroom circus
    which greatly shortened the life of his client (the mother).
    
    I haven't read part one of SATANISM IN AMERICA in the March issue
    because I can't find that issue in the library system.
    

================================================================================
Note 666.121         Mark of the Beast or Mark of the Best?           121 of 125
VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green"            1 line  24-OCT-1991 13:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  >  the boy has diarrhea of the mouth
    
    Why Nichols, how very elegant of you. B^)

Folks, could we put an end to the personal jibes?  Also, I'd like to suggest that
perhaps this isn't the proper forum for a protracted argument about whether or
not a "Satanic cult" exists. 

				Steve

    I've been in virtual contact with Herb. In that mail I suggested that
    we need a term to apply to such misconduct without including the name
    of a religious profession.
    
    After some though I can only come to think of generic person abuse as
    an accurate term. We already have child abuse, spouse abuse and drug
    abuse. There simply must be a better term which will supply the needed
    information without defaming a religious preference.
    
    Any ideas??
    
    

    I'm not sure Charles or I pointed this out but neo-Paganism and
    Satanism are BOTH recognized and protected by law under the
    Constitution. In fact in Colorado there is a religious discrimination
    law (that didn't help Harvey--too late) which prohibits even the
    touching another person in threatening manner under any religious
    justification.

    I sent one piece of mail to Morgan. He replied.
    I asked him to delete my one piece of mail.
    I have no intent of having any other communication with him. 

    Re:  <<< Note 666.130 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

   > I sent one piece of mail to Morgan. He replied.
   > I asked him to delete my one piece of mail.
   > I have no intent of having any other communication with him. 
    
    Why so touchy Herb? It's usual to work things out in personal mail. I
    thought it laudable of you to offer some help.
    
    What gives?

    I hope it is clear to everybody reading this conference that virtually
    nothing since .110 has anything to do with Satanic Cult Abuse.
    The direction has changed to be documentation of clerical abuse, which
    to my knowledge nobody is disputing.
    I am perfectly willing to agree that Haynes and Morgan are right that
    there is rampant(or whatever other adjective suits their fancy)
    clerical abuse.
    One way to 'prevail' is to change the discussion.
    I concede defeat(a priori) in the 'debate'
    
    Be it resolved: Traditional Christian clergy are involved in sexual abuse

    re <what gives?>
    
    I expect my private communication to you to remain private.
    I regret offering you help and have retracted the offer.
    
    

> Be it resolved: Traditional Christian clergy are involved in sexual abuse

Fine. Then lets change the name of the discussion to "Ritual Christian Child
Abuse" since it seems to be more prevalent there and since my thesis is that
"Satanism" as in "Ritual Satanic Child Abuse" is actually a perversion of
organized Christianity and a direct result thereof.

The point is that there is objective verifiable evidence for sexual abuse by
Christian Clergy, yet the evidence for "Satanic" abuse is vague, fragmentary,
hearsay, and unverifiable, yet it is accepted as gospel.

If you're going to go around slandering religions, at least pick one where there
is factual evidence to back up your claims.

Now, just WHO do you think is "ignorant and bigotted?" Me? You personally
offered to answer Bonnie's question. You have not. Would you please?

	-- Charles

    in 666.69 you stated
    
    <against the attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted>
    
    in response I stated that my interest was in defending main-stream
    psychotherapists against the attacks of the ignorant and the bigotted.
    Which should have been recognized as nothing more than a sort of cute
    way of jibing back at you by slightly changing your words.
    
    If you in fact were intending to characterize me as being ignorant
    and/or bigotted then my response could roughly be translated as
    
    "you're another: nya, nya, nyuh, nya, nya"

    Reply to .133, Nichols,
    
    It's usual to talk *about* personal mail, especially *my* part of the
    communication, without undue constraint. Be that what it may it's not
    usual or acceptable to post that mail in a public forum (which I did
    NOT do).
    
    I'm sorry you were offended, but what I did was nominal. Perhaps you
    have some inappropriate expectation?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I do not accept that I have been slandering Satanism.
    I do not believe I will participate in a discussion with the title
    Ritual Christian Child Abuse. 
    Based on the documents I have cited here, I am comfortable with the
    idea that some Satanic Cults engage in ritualized abuse.
    I would be surprised if it is wide spread (in terms -say- of the number
    of victims raped, slain, and cannibalized each year), but the writings
    I have seen so far -if accurate- certainly would place the practices all
    over the country.

    <Perhaps you have some inappropriate expectation?>
    
    clearly

    Reply to .134, Charles,
    
    I suggest we rename the topic to something which does not include the
    name of a religious profession.
    
    Perhaps the moderators will deem to cut out the appropriate notes and
    paste them into another topic.
    
    It's a very emotional and draining topic, but it's one which needs its
    own topic. 

    Re:   <<< Note 666.137 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

   > I would be surprised if it is wide spread (in terms -say- of the number
   > of victims raped, slain, and cannibalized each year), but the writings
   > I have seen so far -if accurate- certainly would place the practices
   > all over the country.
    
    That's one of the items which bothers me Herb. I doubt that this
    ritualized Satanic abuse is all over the country, but I know the meme
    is. Memes spead as fast as the spoken and printed word.

    Just an additional note.

    Until Herb Nichols brought this up in ::SoapBox sometime ago it had
    been a year or so (late 89?) since I'd heard anything on this subject.
    (I'm always looking for stuff like this too.) The religious communities
    of the States (as far as I can tell) have given up on the issue.

    Even with that there's Bob Larson, radio talkshow host in Denver, who
    is pedaling this type stuff very actively. His show TALK BACK, or
    whatever it's called, is slowly losing his syndication due to lack of
    interest. Bob Larson's one and only one product is "Satanism and
    ritualized Satanic abuse." Still no one seems to care for more than 30
    minutes or so of his program.

    My estimation of this problem is that Ritualized Satanic Abuse was
    scrutinized for about 5-7 years (mid eighties) whereupon most folks
    chose simply to forget about it.

    I see that dead horse is still dead. But the carcass seems to attract
    people with whips.            

    Why is it so hard to believe that there are groups out there that
    worship Satan?  And that some of these groups are extremists?  I
    believe that they do exist and some horrible cruelties are done to
    children.  I know one woman who got involved with one of these groups
    as a teenager and she still has nightmares about some of the rituals
    that she witnessed.  She also had a great deal of fear of these people
    finding her.  Listening to her and watching her, I believed her.  
    
    My point here is that denial is easier to live with than facing up to
    the very real horrors that happen in this world.  Sometimes it's easier
    to discredit reports of this nature than it is to accept the full
    impact of it.
    
    Karen

> Why is it so hard to believe that there are groups out there that worship
> Satan?

Not hard at all. I know of at least three organized self identified "Satanic"
groups.

> And that some of these groups are extremists?  

That's not "hard to believe" either, but it doesn't make it true. That's the
WHOLE point of this "meme" argument, the urban myth hypothesis. Urban myths
are BY THEIR NATURE believable. They appeal to some common psychic need in
people to believe. That doesn't make them true.

> I believe that they do exist 

Why?

> and some horrible cruelties are done to children.

I certainly believe that.

> I know one woman who got involved with one of these groups as a teenager
> and she still has nightmares about some of the rituals that she witnessed.

Know her personally? Or was she someone you saw on TV or heard on the radio - 
like Michelle of "Michelle Remembers?"

> My point here is that denial is easier to live with than facing up to
> the very real horrors that happen in this world. Sometimes it's easier
> to discredit reports of this nature than it is to accept the full
> impact of it.

My point is that exactly the opposite is true. It is much easier to ascribe
this horrible abuse to some external agency or grand conspiracy than it is to
accept the fact that "normal" people, "ordinary" people, people like your next
door neighbor, can be doing these horrible things. It's an offense against
reason, against nature, that normal people can do these things. There MUST be
some other explanation. *That* is the easy road.

Primitive peoples sought supernatural explanations for those things they found
incomprehensible. We are not so modern as to have outgrown that basic human
need.

	-- Charles

>> I believe that they do exist 

>Why?
     Because 20 years ago, people didn't want to believe the depth of the
    problem of child abuse, child sexual abuse, wife battering, rape, etc.
    I seem to remember lots of the same kind of arguments against those
    topics 20 years ago that are now being made about this topic.  My
    reasons are not well defined.  Alot of it is based on the involvement I
    have had in the last 2 years with victims of childhood sexual abuse and
    my own research.  And I wish I could find that newsletter from the
    MPD foundation that has a couple of women in there describing what they
    went through as children.  Their parents were members of the Satanic
    cults and both these women are multiples today.

>> I know one woman who got involved with one of these groups as a teenager
>> and she still has nightmares about some of the rituals that she witnessed.

>Know her personally? Or was she someone you saw on TV or heard on the radio - 
>like Michelle of "Michelle Remembers?"
     Yes, I knew her personally.  She was my roommate at one time.  We had
    many long discussions on this topic.  Rarely have I seen fear in a
    persons eyes like I saw it in hers.
    
>> My point here is that denial is easier to live with than facing up to
>> the very real horrors that happen in this world. Sometimes it's easier
>> to discredit reports of this nature than it is to accept the full
>> impact of it.

>My point is that exactly the opposite is true. It is much easier to ascribe
>this horrible abuse to some external agency or grand conspiracy than it is to
>accept the fact that "normal" people, "ordinary" people, people like your next
>door neighbor, can be doing these horrible things. It's an offense against
>reason, against nature, that normal people can do these things. There MUST be
>some other explanation. *That* is the easy road.
    Isn't the "some other explanation" a form of denial?  That "some other
    explanation" won't allow people (in general) to accept the full impact
    of the problem at hand?  
    
>Primitive peoples sought supernatural explanations for those things they found
>incomprehensible. We are not so modern as to have outgrown that basic human
>need.
    Agreed.
    
    Karen

    It is my impression that the only 'evidence' Morgan and Haynes will
    accept, is successful criminal prosecution of a Satanic Cult. I urge
    you to keep this carefully in mind when you describe your personal
    experiences and those of your friends.

    I have been in personal contact with over 200 survivors of childhood
    sexual abuse in the last few years. 

    		The only 'proof' is their story. 

    Of all these 200+ people, black, white, men, women, gay, straight,
    married, single, from 18-6x,clergy, atheists, Americans, Europeans,
    Heartlanders, Northeasterners, Southerners, West coasters, Texans,
    hospitalized, healthy, wealthy, poor, living in the streets, living in
    financial success, they have one thing in common. They have suffered,
    and almost all of them are still suffering.

    There is one other thing all of these people have in common. To my
    knowledge, not one of them has brought criminal charges against their
    abuser(s). One man did bring 'clerical charges' against his priest in
    front of his bishop. It was a tremendously courageous act that required
    the presence of his therapist and his wife to shore him up for the
    daunting task of confronting The Church.

    The power imbalance that exists between a victim of sexual child abuse
    and her/his abuser _dwarfs_ the power imbalance that exists -as an
    example- between an adult victim of sexual harassment and her
    harasser. Yet not many of these harrassers are prosecuted -even
    administratively by their employers.  And how much MORE reluctant will
    women be after they have watched the Thomas hearings? INDEPENDANT of
    whether the hearings should EVER have been televised. INDEPENDANT of
    whether Thomas did those things.

    Is it any wonder that people who were victimized as little children
    prosecute their abusers infrequently?

    Is it any wonder than when that abuse has been perpetrated by an
    organization with mysterious, awesome, and seemingly omnipotent powers
    people are even more reluctant to accuse their abusers?

    Is it any wonder that people who have been abused from the time they
    were infants in some cases, where the abuse has even included
    murder,infanticide, cannibalism- would be reluctant/afraid to accuse
    their abusers? It is not surprising to me. 

    I think that conservative estimates are that there are at least a few
    hundred thousand acts of childhood sexual abuse committed each year. 

    I feel very comfortable believing that perhaps as many as a few hundred
    of these are committed in Satanic Cults.

    What many people want is testimony. What most people are willing to
    give is testament. 
    They won't be witness in a criminal trial, but we can bear witness to
    their suffering. And we can be concerned about what could happen to our
    children. And what has happened, and is continuing to happen to others'
    children.
    And if you are ever fortunate enough to meet someone who has been brave
    enough, and fortunate enough, and lucky enough to break away from a
    cult, do not demand proof. Give them compassion and empathy and
    support. Cry with them. Cry for them. They need it. They deserve it!

    It WILL get better for them. Slowly, not so surely, one day after
    another.

> It is my impression that the only 'evidence' Morgan and Haynes will
> accept, is successful criminal prosecution of a Satanic Cult.

Not even that. Juries are human, the crimes are heinous, people NEED to find
someone to punish, and when no one is close to hand, will use a scapegoat.

> I urge you to keep this carefully in mind when you describe your personal
> experiences and those of your friends.

Herb, that was a cheap shot. I am appalled by child abuse. I don't talk about
my personal experiences or those of my friends in here out of fear of ridicule.
Surprised? I have striven throughout to be evenhanded and fair. I have felt
that you have been ridiculing me and my position and attacking me personally
throughout. I'm tired of it. Please stop it. 

Child abuse is abhorrent, nauseating, and evil. I don't use that term lightly.
It is precisely because it is so abhorrent that people NEED to find a way to
make it fit into a good world, blaming an external agency, finding a group
to blame it on is the simple, the simplistic, the easy way out. I would not
think of denying that child abuse exists, or try to trivialize either its
extent or its effects. However I STRONGLY deny that ritual(ized) satanic
child abuse exists, and precisely BECAUSE child abuse is so serious I find
such charges to be extremely serious and call for the most rigorous
investigation before acceptance, precisely BECAUSE of the seriousness of child
abuse and the potential for persecution of innocent people that our outrage can
engender.

Blaming Satanism delays the real need to deal with this problem head on. These
false charges sap resources that should be applied to solving the real problem
of child abuse. The Satanism smokescreen distracts people from dealing with
real child abuse, and it let's them easily deny that they need to do anything.
THAT is the real tradgedy of this Satanic red herring. It is BECAUSE of this
irrational belief in ritualized Satanic abuse that the real perpetrators are
going uncaught, untreated and unpunished.

The facts don't support "Ritual Satanic Abuse," in fact they oppose it. Let's
stop wasting time chasing chimeras, and spend our effort in STOPPING child
abuse.

	-- Charles

    As I said above, I have had personal eye-ball to eye-ball contact with
    over 200 survivors of childhood sexual abuse. 
    Of those, I remember 5 whose story included surviving a Satanic cult.
    
    
    				herb
    

    
    .143> We are not so modern as to have outgrown that basic human need.
    
    Speak for yourself. 
    

    Re:  <<< Note 666.147 by VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green" >>>

 >   As I said above, I have had personal eye-ball to eye-ball contact with
 >   over 200 survivors of childhood sexual abuse. 
 >   Of those, I remember 5 whose story included surviving a Satanic cult.
  
    This is going to be a delicate subject to broach. I'll try to address
    it fully without offending anyone.
    
    The reality we know is a virtual reality which exists only between our
    ears. Many different things, from nutrition through electromangnetic
    fields through movies we've seen through dreams we've had, affect that
    virtual reality.
    
    In the article in THE HUMANIST, Tom Allen the attorney for the elderly
    mother being sued, seemed to indicate that the three daughters, while
    all telling different stories, some not very credible, believed what
    they testified to. It's evident that fantasy material made it into what
    the daughters thought was physical reality. It was apparent in the
    McMartin Daycare case that many of the children remembered stuff they'd
    fantasized or seen on TV (and which the original interviewers
    ignorantly lead them into).
    
    That experience is borne out many times with respect to interviews
    given people who supposedly suffered ritualized Satanic abuse. The
    questions the interviewer asks not only lead the interviewee to
    answering the questions with a certain spin, but the realization of
    what these leading questions lead to *creates* in the minds of the
    interviewee a historic reality (still virtual) which did not occur.
    
    Now, until we have the proper technologies to get inside another's mind
    we will never know if what another person thinks is reality really is
    reality. Thus because of the mutability of remembered reality a degree
    of skpeticism is called for.
    
    I'll demonstrate it this way. I know for sure that I remember things as
    true life experiences which NEVER happened (because I remember that was
    also movie material). I also remember other things which seem like life
    experiences but which aren't.
    
    These phantom experiences, as best I can describe, are fantasy, dream
    and movie experiences which cross-linked into other neurons in my
    brain. And as I get older I forget other early experiences (blank spots
    I new were not blank before) which sometimes gets replace or linked with
    something else I've experienced later.
    
    This lead Jane Robert, writer of SETH SPEAKS and THE SET MATERIAL, to
    posit that we can *rewrite* our memory. Most people don't know that is
    possible. There is support for this concept in NEUROLINQUISTIC
    PROGRAMMING. In fact Richard Bandler, one of the co-inventers of NLP
    rewrote much of his personal history (because his real one stunk).
    
    With that in mind we can suppose that in the mutable virtual reality
    which inhabits our heads that much material can creep in which is
    foreign to our personal history.
    
    For all intents and purposes that new reality is *real*. Unless the
    individual is very circumspect they can easily become traped in a
    virtual reality based upon a personal history which didn't happen.
    
    This happens of course in degrees. We don't adopt a new virtual reality
    overnight but rather over months or years.
    
    A degree of skepticism is called for especially with reference to the
    human nervos system.
                                                     

Charles,

The point that was not made in all this is that personal PERCEPTION is not
a UNIVERSAL reality.  I read your replies but somehow people did not
understand what you were saying.

There was an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation where people of a
near primitive planet saw the Enterprise and their capabilities and thought
them gods; in particular Picard.  Many of them were thoroughly convinced
that he was 'The Supreme Being'.  It still didn't make it so.

People who choose to believe that Satan is an active and essentially evil
being are not going to be convinced that it's a myth simply because you (or
I) make a sound and reasonable argument against it.  Their reality has an
upper case 'R' and ours is assigned a lower case 'r'.

In our Judeo-Christian based society we are bombarded with messages from
birth about 'the devil'.  It underlies our educational and political
systems.  It serves to keep people in line and when some bent and twisted
individual manifests their psychosis on a child their perfectly believable
defense is 'The devil made me do it.'  It's perfectly believable because
people don't want to believe that they are capable of such acts alone.

Just thought that you might want to know that you are not alone in your
views.  I believe that reality is created in your own head with the use of
your own bias, filters etc and then projected outward to be experienced and
declared reality.

People are quick to assign blame to something or someone who will not
respond to them.  Witches in Puritan New England were everywhere because
people expected to find them everywhere. Thus if a woman was caught in the
woods at night she was labeled as a witch.  Their idea was that a witch
would not admit to being a witch because witches are disciples of Satan and
everyone knows that evil will try to deceive.  Thus a woman's adamant
denial was proof of her guilt.

Lately you have wierdos like Ted Bundy who tells James Dobson that the
reason he killed all those women was not because he was psychotic but
because of pornography.  His hatred of women most likely started at a very
young age but you don't learn to hate women by looking at pornography but
it makes a great out doesn't it.  And of course others can exploit this
phobia for their own political or religious reasons.

patrick

    Reopening an old topic.  There is a new book out called "Out of
    Darkness: Exploring Satanism and Ritual Abuse," by David K. Sakheim and
    Susan E. Devine.  I have not read this book, I've only seen a book review 
    on it.  The book review stated that the authors tried to address all
    sides of the issue.  The reviewer of the book states "And even the
    publisher's publicity material takes liberties with the purpose of the
    book (in my estimation) by making statements such as 'acknowledges the
    surprising pervasiveness of ritual activity' and otherwise implying
    that 'Out of Darkness' is an expose of proven satanic ritual abuse
    incidents, rather than a discussion of reported incidents and expert
    views, honestly intending to stabilize and clarify an area of infinite
    complexity and great consequence to the health of survivors, the mental
    health society and the society in which we live."