Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I think your spouse is very fortunate!  and your relationship may
    have a very strong foundation after all.
    
    If te both of your recognize where the problems are then that's
    a great start.  Find out through talking, where each of you are.
     Are you in balance?  Negotiate.  Focus on what the both of you
    wish to win by staying together. and then how to get it.
    
    Are either of you, maybe a bit not sure of what you are or want
    these days?  Take some time apart and focus on yourselves.  Rediscover
    yourselves as just you.  Then see if your committments are still
    the same.

    A marriage is so much more than sex: family, friends, networks of
    social commitments, suppliers, "clients", acquaintances, debts, taxes,
    buildings, memories, plans, etc. If you think about, on a per cent
    basis, how much time people actually spend in sexual activities you'll
    see how we get bent out of shape simply because of pride rather than
    anything else. Some people (Europeans, usually) keep home life and sex
    life almost completely separate. Only Americans are so smug about
    fidelity !

    I know this is not to do with the basenote but I feel provoked into a
    reply to 657.2.
    
    >               Some people (Europeans,usually) keep home life and sex
    >life almost completely seperate. Only Americans are so smug about
    >fidelity.
    
    Are you joking?! Did you omit a smiley face ? If not then I think you
    have a poor idea about what goes on in Europe. I have not heard of any
    European country where infidelity is any worse than the US.  As for
    keeping home life and sex lives seperate, are you implying that many 
    Europeans go outside of the home for sex. I think that is a rash
    generalisation and a wrong one. I cannot speak with authority about
    European countries other than the UK, but I can assure you that we are
    no worse than you Americans on the fidelity front and it is *not* common
    for people to seperate home lives and sex lives completely. I don't
    know where you got your opinions but, as you Americans would say, they
    are an ethnic slur when voiced. Unless you can back them up with proof
    I would rather you keep them to yourself or face the wrath of my
    keyboard.
    
    
    Jerome.                    

    	It is hardly an ethnic slur (unless the author is one of the ethnic
    minorities in the U.S.) since the majority of the U.S. population is
    ethnically European. Maybe a cultural slur?
    
    	As a personal datum, of my friends and aquaintances, the only ones
    I *know* have been unfaithful within marriage happen to be U.S.
    citizens. Maybe Americans are just more open about that sort of thing.
    In every case it has just been a matter of : away on a business trip,
    meet someone with similar interests and experiences, end up in bed, and
    forget about it the next week.
    
    	There are societies where a marriage is for either political or
    economic purposes, and provided a reasonably credible heir is produced
    then the marriage is a success. This is not typical of European
    society. In those societies divorce for infidelity is almost
    unthinkable, since sex had nothing to do with the purpose of the
    marriage.
    
    	It is just possible that a percentage of both Americans and
    Europeans are sequentially monogamous, and while the Americans can
    afford the intermediate divorces the Europeans cannot.
    
    	There are a few cultures where publicised proof of infidelity would
    require a divorce, but neither Europe nor the U.S. is a good example of
    these.
    
    	Dave (European, and who has only ever had sex with the person with whom
    he has been married for more than 20 years).

    The reason I used the term "ethnic slur" was because in womannotes
    the term "Dutch courage" was called an ethnic slur because it implied
    that the Dutch people had no courage and had to get it from the bottle
    (of alcohol). As it happens, the term came form Dutch gin and not the
    lack of courage of the Dutch. I was using the term in a similar context
    (although I know it is not strictly the correct terminology).
    
    
    Jerome who has also never been unfaithful. 

    Jerome,
    
    The image in popular culture, as it were, fiction etc, of men
    of southern Europe, France and Italy especially, is that they
    have both wives and mistresses and that this is socially accepted.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. Englishmen, on the other hand are supposed to be *very*
    conservative, and sleep in twin beds  a la John Cleeves in
    "A Fish Called Wanda" ;-)

    I agree, relationships/marriage are much more that sex - let's face it,
    you can be unfaithful to a partner in many ways, not just physically.
    I can understand how you feel and I hope you can find out together why
    he needed to stray and get things right between you again -
    communcation is the answer - talk freely and hopefully you can
    understand things a little better
    
    .6 I'm married to an Englishman that would hate single beds, as would
    most I feel.  If that's the image they have abroad, it should be
    shattered!  The stiff upper lip and 'lay back and think of England'
    attitude is long gone, Englishmen are great lovers, friends, partners
    and they'd get my vote any day.  (mind you I can't speak for them
    all!!!) 
    
    P.S. A lot of them are still gentlemen as well, which is really nice.

    re : .6
    
    That these myths survive doesn't suprise me, that someone actually
    believes they are still true does. 
    
    re : .7
    
    Couldn't agree more. I would *hate* single beds and I also pride
    myself in being a gentleman.  The last thing I do is lie back and
    think of England as well. ;-)
    
    
    Jerome.

    At the risk of trying to get this conversation back on track...
    
    what, basenoter, *are* your feelings now?  
    
    

    
	A book I read a while back noted that human beings spend a large
	part of their time attempting to avoid two major fears that underlie
	many of our 'needs' : fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment. 
	The author spent some time detailing how couples can at times make 
	each other safe when each has the same fear. Two people fearing 
	abandonment cling closely; two people fearing engulfment might 
	function with a relatively low level of intimacy but when each 
	individual in a couple has predominately one of the fears then
	a seesaw pattern of emotional conflict can bring about a sense of
	impending insurmountable conflict and depression. 

	In my last relationship, I found once we started being completely 
	honest with each other (with a therapist), that I had been working
	from positions of fear and depression and that the depression had
	brought on a sense that at some point in time I would be abandoned 
	and left alone by my partner. Once I'd begun to work from that
	framework, the openness to another partner was present. Therapy came 
	first.

	Couples work is a very brave thing to get into for a couple having
	problems but I think very rewarding. It can be very frightening 
	too. I ended up having to learn a completely new way of communicating
	(to me) so that I could speak my feeling without being on the offensive 
	and also to hear my partners feelings without getting defensive. I
	needed to learn the language of feelings. It meant confronting major 
	fears for both of us. I'm sure there are lots of feelings bottled up
	inside on both sides; some very strong and some that have lost their
	energy but need to be expressed. Look for them to be expressed 
	non-verbally (distancing,workaholism), physically (fatigue,insomnia), 
	in night or day dreams, and flashes of insight or emotion. We express 
	our feelings in many ways but we always express them in some way. I was 
	primarily a fatigue,insomnia,workaholic person.

	I'd say 'good luck' but there isn't anything lucky about the process
	of opening up and sharing; only more and greater intimacy and respect
	arising from a new commitment to a process of work and growth.
	Take time in the process to do those things that make you both laugh
	and hug and cry...

	Ray
    

    Thanks for those words of inspiration Ray.  I am also beginning to
    realize that the language of relationships is in the conversation
    between the couple.  It is in their commitment to each other and
    not in the commitments to the roles that our family or friends may
    impose upon them.
    

    Yep.  It's an illusion that there is a typical family.

    Thanks for putting that note in, Ray.  I'm going through a lot of what
    you described right now in my life.  All my life I've been told that
    open communication is the key to successful relationships.  What I
    didn't realize until recently was I didn't understand my own feelings
    enough to share them with anyone else (therefore, how could I expect to
    be intimate with anyone?).  This all came from my being brought up in a
    dysfunctional family (yes, the "typical family" is an illusion!).  And
    to further complicate things, my husband was raised in a dysfunctional
    environment.  When we get bad examples to follow, how do we really
    understand what "normal" is?  
    
    Good communication takes time to learn if you haven't been given a good
    example of it during your life.  But we can all learn it, if we want to.
    
    Thanks for the note, Ray.  It was inspirational.  (Boy, the more I work
    on my own emotional health, the easier it is to recognize people that
    have already done the work.  Good work, Ray.)
    
    -Janice

    Much of what will follow is, of course, tongue in cheek. The lack of
    erotic imagination of the UK males (beyond the cane) is legendary. Many
    Euro Latins do seek sex beyond marriage because of the
    "Madonna/Prostitute" complex. They tend to marry Madonnas, quickly
    defile them and then see them re-emerge as Madonnas after maternity.
    From there on they cannot recover the excitement with their wives and
    must of necessity pursue the excitement of the chase again, preferently
    after young "Lolitas" who are worth corrupting. It's not even "midlife
    crisis" or trying to defeat the aging process for themselves: it's
    simply the excitement of the youthful figure, the terse skin, the ease
    with which you get their juices flowing, the beautiful details of the
    young girl body, etc.
    
    He can't very well explain these things to his  wife, of course,
    unless she is bisexual (you should be so lucky!) so he lives two
    separate lives, until all hell breaks loose!
    
    I don't do cute "smileys" so there it is!

    re : 657.14
    
    Aha! You were, it appears, talking about Latin-Europeans in your
    first reply. After all, if us Brits are so lacking in erotic
    imagination, then we probably wouldn't go anywhere for sex, let 
    alone outside the home.
    Just for the record, there's nothing lacking in *my* imagination. :-)
    
    
    Jerome.
    
    PS - If you don't do any "cute" smiley's, how the hell do you convey
         the tone of your notes without literally spelling it out or
         having impetuous rascals like myself jumping down your throat
         unnecessarily (assuming you were being tongue-in-cheek in your
         first reply).

Everyone, thanks for the thoughtful responses.  The tangents on the cultural 
basis for unfaithful men don't really apply as I am a man whose wife did the 
straying.  Are there some assumptions at work that men have a monopoly on this 
behavior?

Re: 657.10...Ray
I am beginning to realize that the work to be done includes personal growth on 
both of our parts as well as rebuilding our relationship.  I think I need to do 
a lot of work to better understand myself....If fears are driving me, I'm out of
touch with them but somehow know I need to look there.  

Your advice to "Take time in the process to do those things that make you both 
laugh and hug and cry..." has real meaning for me.  There are many facets of why
we are special to each other and those facets have become rather weak memories. 
We've gotten used to not appreciating each other and not bringing out that which
we treasure in the other.  The work... processing old anger, beginning a process
of self-inquiry, etc. will be easier if shared and accompanied by experiences of
love for each other.

Re: 657.13...Janice
I have similar work to do.  I am a poor communicator - it feels threatening. 
Truly open communication for me has the risk of having another see my 
imperfections.  My background taught me to run from anything that looks or 
smells like criticism.


We've got a lot of work to do.  The title of my note is probably a poor one.  I 
think of my wife's affair as more of a wake-up call that we need to get up and 
get to work.  I feel hurt by this event - but I view it as a symptom of a 
situation that we both allowed to happen.