Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    The hugginess in there makes me wanna puke.
    
    Theres gotta be a uniquely male way to show support
    without all the saccarine.
    

    I haven't found the Womennotes that "supportive" of males. Mainly they
    support each other (women) and harp on men whenever we give them half a
    chance.

.1> The hugginess in there makes me wanna puke.
    
I am strictly READ_ONLY in the conference referenced but I'm in
absolute agreement with Mr. Holt's assessment with respect to
regurgitation of the morning meal when I see all the hugginess
in some conferences ... sometimes I can read a note, lean my
head back and roll my eyes just *knowing* that a plethora of
"hugs" is going to follow.  I make good use of NEXT UNSEEN in
such instances.

.1> Theres gotta be a uniquely male way to show support
.1> without all the saccarine.

How 'bout "...hey good buddy, that's a big 10-4 on that -
I'll buy you a brew the next time our paths cross"?

Bubba

I sometimes wonder if we (men) _really_ seek it (supportiveness), at least to
the same degree.

I, too, have found that often the supportive reactions from other men are "less
warm" than the apparent responses seen in other conferences. However, I've no
problem with that, as if I'm seeking support at all, I'm generally not
interested in a blubbery attitude, regardless of the gender of the support
giver.

I think I've also found that in many situations I've developed a personal
attitude of "Nobody wants/needs to listen to this crap" when I consider
discussing something of a support-seeking nature, hence my leading statement
above. I don't have any problem with that, though. For myself, it's OK not
to be perpetually reaching out. I admit this may be a chicken/egg situation.

And finally, I agree with the General that the type/flavor/mode of support
we (men) seek from each other is different. For myself, that reinforces
the "independent" air (i.e. "don't need/seek blubbery responses").

I guess, in summary, when I'm looking for support, the first thing I want
is for someone to _LISTEN_. If they express some agreement with my feelings,
that's a bonus. If I ask for advice or opinions and they have any to offer,
that's welcome as well. Above that, I'm not lookin' for much.

(This will, of course, lead us into a subsequent discussion of "Why are
 men so _cold_?"  :^)   )

-Jack

    The warmth and support provided in womannotes by people who are
    both friends and strangers to me, has been very precious to me.
    I'm sorry for people who find it unpleasant, blubbery, treacly,
    false, etc. But then, you don't, as Jerry mentioned, have to read
    those notes. There are some very warm and caring people in =wn=
    and I'm proud to be associated with them.
    
    Bonnie

    Too much male testerone! I guess its in our geans/jeans to fight.
    Reguardless what sexual prefernece you seek!:) The way to stop the
    fighting is to have a common bond/interest amonst the trible nations. A
    war agianst an outside foe usually does it. Funny in a note
    explained by Bubba is that many of these fighting rebles would take the
    shirt off their back to give to their enimies if the need occured. I am
    shure that I will get climbed on for this, but it is the nature of the
    beast(s). And it shows over and over and over in these notes and in
    real life. I know that if I met some of the gang here, and their cars
    were in trouble on the highways. I would stop to help the worst of
    enimies in the files. I am shure that Glen, Herb, and gang would all do
    the same. I rather doubt that anyone would thumb their noses at anyone
    who would be in real deep trouble.

	I think that in general men are as supportive as women. It just works
	differently for men and women. Men tend to get a deeper level of support
	from fewer people than women. At least comparing men-men and 
	women-women. And men cammunicate their support differently. Women seem
	to use more verbal ques. Men non-verbal ones. Non verbal communication
	translates poorly to notes.

	When I think of past support between myself and the men I'm close to
	and compare it to the women I know I come to the conclusion that that
	men communicate more support via facial expressions than women do by
	large number of words. I've seen my son go to his mother for support
	hear a lot of really great words but be unfulfilled. In similar things
	he'll look at me and we exchange non-verbal communication (looks, smiles
	gestures) and he'll feel much better. This isn't to say that that's
	always enough or always the right way just that it happens that way
	sometimes.

	Sometimes a man want's and needs a hug. In my family and among my male
	friends it's not unusual for them to get it either. But a *hug* in a
	notes conference leaves me flat. I can't relate to it. For those who
	can fine but it doesn't work for me.

				Alfred

    
    I think support from women is by and large more emotive, soft and
    demonstrative than support from men.
    
    I have found it difficult to glean support from men via terminal
    (email, notesfiles) unless they decide to be overly (it often feels to
    them) demonstrative verbally.
    
    The most likely male cues for support I've seen from the non-senstive-
    -new-age-guy type are mostly visual.  A nod and a gaze are often the key
    that I am heard and understood and supported.  Often it's totally
    nonverbal.
    
    The notes medium doesn't communicate visual cues, and this may be a
    stumbling block for men offering support using this medium who don't
    enjoy, connect with, or value the effusive huggy style displayed and
    supported in womannotes.
    
    -Jody
    

	Personally, I think the kind of supportiveness that is too kissey-
kissey is more for the person giving the "support" than for the person who 
needs it.  If I'm hurtin' I don't need to have my tears wiped away.  
Usually I need to have someone who'll just listen, or tell me off if that's 
what's needed.  I always hear that men are less compassionate than women.  
I find that my opinion of compassion is very different from that of people 
that think this way.  Among my friends, the ones I feel are the most 
compassionate are the ones that are not afraid to be hard-nosed with me 
when I need it.  If I'm wallowing in self-pity they won't think twice about 
telling me to go away and come back when I have my head back on straight.  
These same people have gone to the wall for me when I've really had 
problems.   Are they all kissey faced?  No.  Are they compassionate and 
supportive?  I think so.

	I also can't stand a person who uses the macho tough guy attitude 
like the "divorce the bitch" or "glad it's not my problem" attitudes 
mentioned in an earlier note.  I think this attitude is the flip side of 
mushy meaninglessness I mentioned above and I find it equally useless.

Ron

	re: .7 "a *hug* in a notes conference leaves me flat."

	Me, too.  I like the real ones.  Getting a *hug* in a note does me 
    about as much good as getting a *dollar*.  If it works for you, though,
    more power to you.

	I look at it this way (forgive me if I generalize -- I know it's
    wrong, but I'm weak).  Women in general have fewer hangups about hugging
    than men in general.  Therefore, I figure if a man hugs me, he means it.
    And, in consequence, it means a lot to me.

	re: last few

	I've known some women who are just as competitive as men, and just as
    likely to gloat over another woman's misfortune.  I personally don't think
    this is a gender issue.  As Albert Schweitzer once observed, "Assholes
    come in all shapes and sizes."

	Finally, disregarding the question of whether women are *willing* to
    be more supportive, when I have a male-oriented issue to work on, I have 
    to talk to a man about it.  Women can sympathize, but only men can 
    empathize.

    
    
    I think it has something to do with cultural conditioning.  If you
    did not have any male role models who were supportive of you in
    a manner which made the support evident, then how can you yourself
    know how to do such a thing?  
    
    When I first read the base note the first thing that came to mind
    was "because boys are taught not to cry".  Conversely, women have
    this type of teaching from a very early age.  It is ok for a woman
    to express her emotions, but when a man does it some people are 
    uncomfortable.  Hopefully the men here who have found ways to
    support other men that work will pass these ideas onto your
    sons, brothers, and other men in your lives.  It is a learned behavior.

    Agree with -.1  Women are taught to work together and support each
    other.  Men are taught to tough it out alone.  I long for the
    ability to get and receive emotional support, but I'm not good at it.
    I wish I could do the hug stuff in -wn-, but I always back away from
    it.  I am glad other people are there to do it.  I don't think it's
    stupid or silly.  Like other men, when I respond over there it's
    usually to give advice or suggestions or relate experience.  When I 
    reread my notes I realize that they just don't come over like the
    notes from the women.  And I understand why I am usually just ignored
    (or else draw fire).  It's just not what was being looked for.  It had 
    the wrong tone somehow.  So I don't do that as much as I used to.  I do 
    more listening and less talking.
    
    						- Vick

It just struck me that this may be one of the causes of the difficulty some 
men have communicating with women and vice versa.  Namely, that we may know 
that we are feeling supportive and would be willing to _do_ what is needed 
when someone needs help/support.  We know it, but no one else does 'cause 
we've been taught/conditioned to be more stoic.

I agree that electronic hugging leaves me flat.  It seems to me very much 
the same as asking some one how they're doing when we both know we really 
don't  care.   I have no problem with the real thing (I collect them as 
often as possible) but to me electronic hugs, like talk, are cheap.

Ron

    But, when you cannot get the real hug, doesn't an electronic one help?

    
    Hi George,
    
    To answer your question..I thought so. It's nice to know other noters
    not only read your notes but that some might actually care a bit.
    
    						Hank

           <<< Note 644.15 by AIMHI::RAUH "Home of The Cruel Spa" >>>

>    But, when you cannot get the real hug, doesn't an electronic one help?

	It's about the same as someone saying "have a nice day".  Unless I 
know the person and know that their expression is heartfelt because they 
know me.  

Ron

I read women notes once in a while but I just don't write in it very often.
The reason is that there seems to be too much anger and animosity to any
NEW male.  There are some men who write in wn that seem to be accepted but
in the past my views (against women in combat etc) have been nuked.

I feel like men and women approach these notesfiles much differently.
Women seem to find it easier to blurt out their inner most thoughts to
anonomous audiences; most men I know and myself included need to feel safer
than these notesfiles can offer.  I get together every year for a week with
four other guys.  We can tell anything to each other and never have to
worry about how it will be taken or used.  We hunt elk and deer inbetween
talking, eating and taking naps in the woods.  The only other time in my
life that I felt that comfortable with a group of people was in Vietnam.
It was like if you could trust your life to your buddies telling them your
inner most thoughts wasn't so hard.  But let's face it there are some things
that men understand between each other that no woman could ever know.  For
example no woman I have ever met understands what it feels like to be 18
years old with 4 gallons of testostorone in your system.  They don't
understand the mixed feelings of agony and exhileration.

Patrick

    	I'm mixed on electronic hugs.

    	When someone earlier said something like 'hugs are cheap', I
    	immediately thought back to some particularly difficult times 
    	I was having while at school. I was miserable, everything looked 
    	bleak. Then I got a card from my best female friend which just 
    	said 'cheer up'. Turned me right around, was just what I needed
    	at the time. Sure, the card was just a cheap card. But it was
    	worth a lot more than that to me at the time...

	I imagine electronic hugs to be the same way for many. 

    	In a similar fashion, a nifty electronic mail message from someone 
    	can pick up my whole day too, just like getting real letters at
    	home in the mail. 

    	But at the same time, I don't feel comfortable in a public arena
    	(like a notesfile) when after one or two people have given an
    	electronic hug, there are many after of the same. I tend to think
    	"C'mon, alright already." :-) I think it should be more of a
    	private thing, people sending a personal note via mail instead of
    	50 people all "hopping on the bandwagon." It seems more valuable 
    	(to me) in a personal space. Same with real hugs. "Everyone in the
    	parish come hug this good man" means lightyears less than a real
    	hug from a real friend (or even a handshake for that matter).

	Still, I like the feeling womannotes has because of all this
    	visible intimacy and support. Definitely worth hitting a few
    	next/unseen keys for if I happen to hit the middle of a bandwagon 
    	hug note... 

    	-Erik

    O.K. if you don't know that person. Offer him/her/het/gay a coffie!:)
    If possible, hence, the saying that you never met a person that you
    didn't like. There.... A little Mark Twain. Some class?!:)

           <<< Note 644.21 by AIMHI::RAUH "Home of The Cruel Spa" >>>

>    If possible, hence, the saying that you never met a person that you
>    didn't like. There.... A little Mark Twain. Some class?!:)

	Nice try, George but it was Will Rodgers that said that.  (Or was 
it Will Rogers?)



Erik,

	I guess that was the point I was trying to make.  I'm not thrilled 
about being electronically hugged by a stranger just because it's the 
sensitive thing to do.  The card from your friend was just that, from a 
friend that knew you and what you were about.  We can all be huggy huggy in 
this forum because it's safe and as soon as we log off we can forget all 
about what goes on here.  That's not being supportive, in my book.

Ron  

RE: .0

 >   My null hypothesis: If you talk to your male friend about this, 
 >   Hoyt, you'll regret it!  
 >
 >   Is my perception wierd? 

    	It depends. I have a few male friends where we'll talk together about
    	intimately personal things with no barriers. I don't think this 
    	is so rare.  Or at least, that I don't think of myself as being 
    	especially lucky in my male friends. I mean, weren't your childhood
    	best (male) friends that way? You did everything together and
    	talked about everything together. It was only later on when we
    	felt the pressures to be 'tough' and 'like a man' that we withdrew
    	from any closeness with _any_ other male at all. No?

    	I also know quite a few male acquaintances (I feel there needs to 
    	be a level of intimacy [for lack of a better word, or sharing]
    	and some bond between us to be a friend) who I would never dare say
    	anything with except the only male right to speak, sports. I'd never
    	share anything personal with them as I know I too would regret it.

    	That colors my participation here. The lines and barriers are
    	definitely drawn for me as there are other _men_ out there. :-)
    	I definitely feel a lot less guarded when I'm in a personal setting
    	or a core group setting with a small group of men. 
    
    	-Erik
                                                   

    
    > I don't think of myself as being especially lucky in my male friends.
    
    	Oh boy, better clarify that! :-) It didn't read like what I was trying
    	to say...
    
    	I feel _very_ lucky for having the individual friends that I do. But
    	that I don't think it is so rare a thing to have two male best
    	friends who are close to each other and trust each other enough
    	to be comfortable talking about personal situations et al with. 
    
    	Phew... almost lost a few of my male friends back there. :-)
    

     I am mixed on electronic hugs. On the one hand, they frequently get
    out of hand and seem almost meaningless (hugs are cheap phenomenon). On
    the other hand, I have given and received hugs that felt good to me. I
    guess, as with most things, the value of an electronic hug is
    proportional to its rarity (and also where it comes from.)
    
     The Doctah

    One possible source of insight to the basenote question may be in
    analyzing *how* people communicate.  I read a book titled "You Just
    Don't Understand" by Dr. Deborah Tannen.  Dr. Tannen's research
    suggests that men and women communicate in very different ways.
    Men tend to use language as a control mechanism and women tend to
    use language to seek connections.  Thus, a man is less inclined
    to show sympathy as he may feel that he is showing a weakness.
    
    /roger

>    Thus, a man is less inclined
>    to show sympathy as he may feel that he is showing a weakness.
    
	Sympathy to men may be different than sympathy to women.  I would 
be less inclined to hug and coddle someone who's hurting than I would to 
try and help them work through their crisis.   I view hugging and coddling 
as a bandaid.  It might make the person feel good for right now, but once 
the hugging is over the problem is still there.  Don't get me wrong, I'm 
not saying that show of affection has no value.  It certainly does.  But, 
to me, there more to being supportive than that.

Ron

    Sometimes once the hugging is over the problem doesn't seem so big and
    the person can find the solution him/herself.  Sometimes the person
    already knew the solution, but needs emotional support.  And sometimes the
    hugging is by itself the solution.  
    						- Vick

    I feel funny (embarassed?) if someone "gives" me an electronic
    hug.  But I don't mind giving them myself.  Probably has to do
    with all the reason one might *need* a hug, and not wanting 
    those reason known in an electonic forum.
    
    /Greg

     :)
    

>>>>                         -< a big HUG to all of you! >-

no, no, I thought the male equivalent of the HUG is:

	a hard slap on the butt
	a painful punch in the arm
	a "noogie" on the head (painful as all get out) while holding the
		head in a hammerlock

		8^}

sheesh!  As cloying as the HUGS are, they sound less painful...I'll take
hugs!

    
    	Nah, you mean those 'male versions' of hugs called "A-frame hugs"...
    

>                          -< male versions of hugs? >-
    
    Don't forget slam-dancing.
    
    (Although my favorite slam dancer (who usually gives up on me 'cause
    I'm too painfully angular) also specializes in lift-off-the-ground-and-
    spin-around-the-room hugs...)
    
    Ray

    Go away for a weekend and return to 34 responses. Cool. And NONE of
    them acerbic responses to the preceding replies! Way cool.
    
    Hugs isn't the issue for me. It's more the competitiveness and the rush
    to solutions. When I need to talk about something, it's NOT to display
    my feelings, it's to explore them. It's to identify errors and
    opportunities. It's to work TOWARDS a solution. "Here are my thoughts
    to date... have any suggestions about how I can enrichen these ideas?"
    It seems like men tend to by-pass this thoughfulness as they lunge to
    "the answer."
    
    How come? I know that _I_ think it is "manly" to have the answers.
    Saying "we're lost" or "I have no blinking idea" isn't impressive. We
    are supposed to be depended upon, in which case we'd better be
    dependable, i.e. knowledgeable, in control, on top of the situation.
    This _should_ be more important around women. "If I'm uncertain, she'll
    lose respect." Around men we should be more comfortable with muddling
    about, though. Maybe men act like men around men out of habit.
    
    - Hoyt (see you in the pit, Ray)

    (I was about to correct the Will Rogers reference too, but then I
    thought "what a guy thing to do in a note about being supportive...") 

    I've gotten some uniquely valuable support from men, but it's true, it
    was different from what I've gotten from women (and I have some pretty
    tough (and tuff) women friends). More alcohol and mock punching /
    wrassling was usually involved, for example.

    One that tackles my memory right off: Immediately after my
    quasi-divorce, my brother-in-common-law (still a good friend) just sort
    of laid the situation out as he saw it, sanely, dispassionately, like a
    debate team, but still with some sense of personal warmth. That was
    what I needed to be brought out of dazed confusion and start building
    some sort of foundation on the Real World.

    I don't think of myself as terribly supportive (I don't have many male
    friends who are interested in sympathy, more like "Let us sit and rail
    against the world"). But the recent Gays-Are-Icky argument reminded me
    of a teenage boy who came to me (as the Local Bohemian) because he'd
    fallen into sex with the Local Icky Gay Boy (it was a very
    old-fashioned town) and was worried about whether that meant he was
    "abnormal". I told him it didn't, told him why, told him why it didn't
    much matter at this point anyway, and advised him to be more selective,
    in a kindly cold-hearted fashion. And apparently that's what he
    needed.�

    Same sort of deal with my philosophy profs, probably the most
    influential older men in my life:  A sense of any situation being open
    to analysis (and even mockery) without indicating lack of
    understanding, and still with willingness to help -- is that along the
    right lines, Hoyt? Small gloats and thoughtless solutions tend to be in
    the mix, but they don't eliminate the sympathy, just give it an odd
    flavor, like mezcal depth-bombs in the Dos Equis.

    Ray
    
    �In any conference I trusted, I wouldn't need to go into this, but...
    If he had fallen into sex with the Local Icky Girl Who Put Out, I'm
    pretty sure he would've suffered the same mix of lust and self-disgust,
    but because the labels put on it would be different, he probably
    would've considered THAT "normal", and maybe, god help us, even
    "desirable", and not asked for help. But if he had, I would've had the
    same things to say to him.

    Has anyone mentioned the form of male supportiveness in which two guys
    find something that they both feel just as depressed by, and then go
    over and over and over it? That's pretty common.
    
    I was reminded by my previous reply of a night spent in mutual
    self-pity over my mother-in-common-law with the previously mentioned
    buddy whose mother she was. About an hour into this miseryfest all the
    women at the table left in disgust, but we managed to scale new maudlin
    peaks in the next couple of hours, aided by pitchers of Long Island
    iced tea. We finished up with heartfelt hugs, an attempt to pick up a
    waitress, and getting totally lost on our ways home. Ah, happy days...
    
    Ray

Sorry for the manly correction on the Will Rogers thing.  I guess I've 
still got a lot of work to do.  :-)

Seriously, though, one of the lessons that I value most about being 
supportive is the value of just sitting there, keeping my fool mouth shut, 
and listening.  I had to do this in a supervision class when I was in the 
military.  Most of the male NCO's had a hell of a time shutting up and 
letting the person we were "counseling" talk.  The female NCO's though were 
much better at it.  At the end of the exercise the instructor pointed out 
how much more those of us who were counseled women, opened up to the 
exercise.  It was suggested that this was because of the ability to listen 
quitly rather than assert a solution that makes the "listener" happy.


					Ron

    Re -2 NICHOLS:
    
    I'm not really interested in why women are the way they are, except
    possibly as a straw against which to speculate why men are the way we
    are. "Why are men more competitive" is too narrow too. I *am* trying to
    promote a search -- exploration rather than the rush to conclusion.
    
    I'm already enlightened by the replies to date. I have never
    interpreted drunken wrestling with being supportive. To me, that more
    locker room "mine is bigger than yours" activity. Perhaps I'm making a
    basic error in thinking that "supportive" among men should look vaguely
    like WOMENNOTES. I've also disdained events like the hunting weekend
    and TV-and-beer football fest. If support happens at these occasions,
    that would explain why I don't see it.
    
    Perhaps the question should be "why don't _I_ find men more supportive?"

    As a woman reading this string, and thinking about it, I'd like to put
    in my 2 cents, FWIW.
    
    In our culture, men are not trained to just LISTEN.  (Not all women can
    do this either.)  If someone (male or female) wants a male friend to
    listen without interrupting, not offer irrelevant or unwanted advice,
    keep the confidence, and provide support without being intrusive, it
    helps to ASK and explain a bit.
    
    Such as , "You are my close friend.  I need to talk about something and
    I want you to listen.  I'm not ready to decide on a solution yet, so
    I'll listen to your advice, if you have any, but I won't act on it yet. 
    The best thing you can do for me now is just listen.  Okay?"
    
    Asking this way gives the friend some idea of what is wanted.  Do you
    think it would help?
    
    You also have to select the right time and place.  Making an
    appointment to talk is a good idea.  A good place is either home when
    nobody else is around, or in a restaurant.  It's also good to talk
    while walking outdoors.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Laura
    

    agree with the recommendation in .26 - it covers a lot of of things
    touched on in this string.
    
    	Andrew
    

    I guess the problem I have with electronic hugs is that I regard them
    as "PC," which I regard as "sucking up."
    
    They may work for someone, but it's my general opinion that they are
    for show.
    
    To me, tis better to receive mail from someone, which shows that they
    cared enough to take a moment to send a private mail message instead of
    an online hug.  It's sort of like praying in public... reciting a fancy
    prayer to impress one's christian peers... verses praying in a closet.
    I'm not a religious person, but you get the point, eh?

    I got an electronic hug from a fellow noter. It felt good, esp when I
    was kinda in the darker hours of my divorce. I felt that I wasn't alone
    behind this keyboard. 

.44>    To me, tis better to receive mail from someone, which shows that they
.44>    cared enough to take a moment to send a private mail message instead of
.44>    an online hug.

I very much agree with your above statement!  What do you say in your private
mail message to show support?  Is what you say pretty much the same for someone
you know versus a stranger?  Do you take my agreement with your statement as
one of showing support for you?

Guys,

	What are we going to do if we are the way we are because thats
 the way we are supposed to be.

	By that I mean we as males are subject to all the motivations that
other male animals are subject to. It's hard to be supportive when you are
in competition with other males as directed by nature. I would like males to be
supportive of each other but I don't see it happening in the same form as
females. Our function in nature is a lot different than the female gender.
Unfortunatly that means aggressive behaviour toward other males. No matter
how much social engineering we do we are still males in search of our domain.


			Wayne

    I've just perceived that a hug-intent is the substantial part of a hug.