Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    I hate to sound silly, but that doesn't strike me as sexist. Just
    crude, and frequently true. Was he sexist because he apologized to the
    women and not the men? 

If instead of mice, it was a woman caught in the "trap" and a line of men
were behind her, I think it might be even more obvious (though I wouldn't
have needed that to see it.)  (There's an almost equivalent joke widely
told in the US, involving a cowboy finding a woman left tied to the bed
in her cabin, and instead of freeing her he says "Well, ma'am, I guess this
ain't your lucky day..."  This shows that the "acceptability" of the
humor is more widespread than one might want to believe.)

Yes, tolerance of sexism varies widely among different cultures.  There are
parts of the world where a woman out alone is presumed to be a "whore" and
therefore it is justifiable, and almost expected for men to rape her if
discovered.

Likewise, there are things that Americans consider acceptable which are
great offenses in other cultures.

The lesson is that it pays to be culturally aware when travelling.

				Steve

    	You should distinguish between "socially acceptable" and
    "toleration of sexist behaviour".
    
    	For several of my female colleagues it would not be socially
    acceptable for me *not* to kiss them on both cheeks when we meet in the
    corridor. This is "discrimination" since their husbands would not
    expect the same. I don't attempt to kiss American female colleagues
    since I am aware of the cultural difference.
    
    	However, both sets of colleagues would be most offended if I were 
    to treat  them as inferior.

I would find that cartoon *extremely* offensive in any culture, with or 
without women present. To have shown it at a DEC meeting is extremely poor 
taste, IMHO.....However, I have heard high level managers make similarly 
offensive remarks in DEC meetings so I guess I am not surprised.

    Vic

    >>I would find that cartoon *extremely* offensive in any culture, 
    
    	I am not sure what you mean by adding "in any culture". There have
    been cultures where it was traditional to eat your grandmother after
    she died. Someone from those cultures would regard our habit of burying
    them with *extreme* disgust - it is showing disrespect for the dead to
    treat them like carrion not fit to eat.
    
    	Personally I find the way Americans usually handle a knife and fork
    when eating slightly impolite, but regard it as more impolite in a
    European who should know better.
    
    	Not knowing the culture of the person who made the presentation I
    could not even guess whether it might be considered offensive in his
    culture. Even if it is he might have chosen it as a deliberate shock
    effect (c.f. James Joyce and D. H. Lawrence). Since the person who put
    in the base note has obviously not forgotten that presentation it may
    have served a deliberate purpose.
    
    	If you don't know the culture in question you should expect to both
    offend and be offended. When you know the culture you can choose to be
    rude (and most people do at some time), but not before.
    
    	Doesn't "valuing differences" teach you that there are cultures
    with completely different standards? If it could be shown that this
    was not considered offensive in the presenter's culture I would have
    thought it would have been a very good example and case study for such
    a seminar.

    
    whats wrong with the way Muricans wield the knife and fork?
    
    that smacks of cultural imperialism to me..

         What's more, there is no ONE way that "Muricans" hold their knives
    and forks.  Some methods are quite proper (as if there is some kind of
    law), while others tend toward the "wild, wild west" style.  Smacks of 
    gross generalization.
    
         Back to the subject, my old group had an interesting visit from
    some of their counterparts from France.  They were shocked that we had
    a female manager, and tended to "talk around" her rather than TO her.
    They were none too sad to leave this place. 
    
                                        Greg

    	.6 and .7 are quite correct. My comment about cutlery was intended
    to exemplify exactly what I was objecting to in .4, that is, a wild
    generalisation about a culture I don't know or understand, but with
    this time the Americans on the receiving end.
    
    	Incidentally, I wasn't getting off the point with the comment. The
    base note asked about cultural differences, and didn't restrict it to
    sexism.

    Hello GREG,
    
    	I am very surprised with what you say concerning FRANCE and women
    as Manager. I lived in several "anglo-saxon" countries and I have
    discovered that in fact FRANCE is less machist than the other countries
    I lived in. I must admit that I though the contrary but I changed my
    opinion.
    
    	As an example I can take DIGITAL,
    When I was working for DIGITAL FRANCE, there were a lot of women who
    were Manager. Now I am working in VALBONNE which has nothing to do with
    DIGITAL FRANCE, we are directly reporting to EHQ and the majority
    of the poeple and almost all the managers are "anglo-saxon"
    
    	VALBONNE, which is not DIGITAL FRANCE, is located in FRANCE and has
    to follow the french legislation. EVERY year each enterprise must
    produce legal documents which are called "BILAN SOCIAL" and "RAPPORT
    D'EGALITE PROFESSIONNELLE" (social assessment and Professional equality
    report)
     
    	In thess documents you must give a lot of social information and
    within them the number of men and women in each professional category,
    the average of salaries for men and women and for category... and so
    on.
    	I remember the reaction of the woman who produced this document for
    the first time in VALBONNE. As the DIGITAL FRANCE subsidiary had a
    software for that, VALBONNE used the same one and could compare the
    results .
    
    	The number of women who were managers in VALBONNE were so low
    compared to DEC FRANCE, and the average of salaries in each professional
    category were so bad for the women in VALBONNE that she said she will
    try to find a job in DIGITAL FRANCE as soon as she can.
    	I know that it is now changing, but it is for me a confirmation
    that it is easier for a woman to live in FRANCE. German, irish,
    american and dutch women I know who are living in FRANCE for several
    years told me the same thing.
    
    	I don't know the situation in the other latin countries, SPAIN,
    ITALY or PORTUGAL.
    
    	So you can understand why I am surprised with what you say. 
    
    	Regards,
    
    	THIERRY

    RE .??
    
    The presenter was a northern european, part of NATO.
    
    
    Steve

   RE: <<< Note 626.9 by ULYSSE::SOULARD "EGALITE ou JUSTICE, il faut choisir" >>>
                            -< Surprise - surprise >-

   
   > 	So you can understand why I am surprised with what you say. 

   Hello Thierry,
    
        I suppose these people could have been unrepresentative.  We have
    plenty of female managers in the US, but we still have people who
    behave like the guys I described.  I guess it was the way that they
    expected people to agree with them that made us think it was normal in
    France.
    
                                       Greg

    There was no implied "sexism" in the rat cartoon or the showing of it.
    It was in poor taste, though. What is very different in different
    countries ( I've lived in 4, visited 26) is what is considered funny.
    Jokes involving human-generated gases are considered extremely rude in
    the Latin countries whereas Americans find them very amusing, for
    example.

    IMO: The cartoon - highly questionable, especially in a work setting,
    but standards do vary from place to place. The apology to the women
    only - definitely sexist. If one wants to tell a joke that needs to be 
    apologized for, either apologize to everybody present or don't tell it.
    
    [Although I _have_ gotten some entertaining conversational mileage out
    of asking, in as innocent a tone as I could manage, just *why* the
    gentleman kept excusing himself to me - and not to the others present -
    whenever he uttered an expletive. ;-)]
    
    -b