Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    My (ex) wife and I often joke about the fact that *neither* of us ever
    proposed in the classical sense ... one night (prior to marriage) I
    commented on how well we got along and I said "we ought to make this
    permanent" ... she agreed and ... we got married. Proposal? Not really
    necessary ... is it?
    
    General Bubba

    I'm a little amazed that someone is supposed to propose it
    which sounds like someone is then supposed to accept it.
    
    Seems to me that if a relationship is heading in that
    direction that marriage starts to get talked about and the
    couple eventually decide to do it.  Which doesn't mean
    that both people move toward it at the same pace, but
    "proposal" doesn't seem like the right word to describe
    what I can imagine happening.
    
    Wil

As Wil says, in most cases the proposal is a formality, whose surprise factor
is only based on WHEN it will be asked, not IF.  But not always....

In my own case, my wife proposed to me, though knowing fairly well that I would
accept.  She even gave me an engagement ring!    I was thrilled!

			Steve

    I was preposed to, or given that ultimatum. Not fun, I kind of think
    its the bums rush to force the hand. Sometimes folks don't understand
    that when its time, its time. Sometimes when one party in ready, the
    other is poundering, because there is a big step here and the deadline
    is bla-bla date. That is really unfair, I loved the woman, I married
    her, but it was, 'well fella, I am going to cut my loss's' as done in
    a bad business venture. Perhaps marriage is the worst business venture
    you could get into. Perhaps I will be awake the next time I get the
    bums rush here. I think there many of us who think things over in more
    than a couple of weeks. Death till us part means something.

    Funny.  My (now ex) and I discussed marriage, and set a date to "go
    look at" rings at the jewelers building...   Surprise, surprise, we
    found one she liked...   So we left the building, and I said "why don't
    you go shopping for a few minutes in this store, I have to go get
    something", and went and got the ring...  Then gave it to it, in
    typical proposal fashion, on the banks of the river Charles...
    
    I then found out that proposing was basically the same as marriage, as
    we went to show the ring to the families...
    
    Next time, I'm going to make SURE I know what I'm doing before I set
    foot into ANY jeweler's building.  ;-)
    
    Dave

    I was just wondering if the men feel that it's their deal to do
    the asking.   Would you rather be the one.  Should the woman only
    suggest that she'd like you to ask or should she remain quiet about
    the whole matter?  Is this anything like dating?  You know, the
    woman flirts so that the guy will ask her out instead of her asking
    forthright.  In a way, the woman has it better, 'cause she can suggest
    to the dude that she's interested but if the guy doesn't ask her
    out, she can assume he's not interested and she doesn't go through
    quite as much embarrassment.   Is this just plain old-fashion attitude,
    I don't know.

    Woman flirting so that the guy asked rather then asking herself? What
    a concept. My wife asked me out pretty directly for our first date. I
    assumed that was common. :-) She also suggested that it was about time
    we got engaged and I agreed. It was a natural flow of events. I've
    heard of people being surprised about a proposal but that never seemed
    very natural to me.

    		Alfred

>    Death till us part means something.

I highly recommend that you reverse this sentence.  ;-)

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

    
    I think it's cute if she proposes to me. I would be really flattered
    if she got down on one knee, and said " I'll give up all men for you".
    As far as the ultimatum: !@#$%#@ that!!
    Till "death" do you part is a loooooooong time! You've got to be SURE.
    If she challenges you on something like this- imagine what your life
    will be like. Even worse - imagine the alimony suit on the other end!

    	I said till death do us part 21+ years ago and I have no regrets,
    and would do it again (as long as it was with the same woman).  With
    todays divorce rate they must have replaced that sentence with till
    the going gets rough.  Yes you do have to be sure, but you should be 
    sure before you get married.  

    Joe

    	My son has just got engaged, and I hope both he and his fianc�e
    understand the meaning of "till death do us part". If what they mean is
    "until the other person gets an incurable disease, or until one of us
    becomes infatuated with an office colleague" then they should honestly
    say that at the time.
    
    	Out of curiosity, why do most Americans get married? With the high
    rate of divorce and the legal costs thereof (which benefit neither party
    since they go to lawyers) even if there are tax savings it can't be a
    good long-term statistical bet. Are they very religious and believe
    that you shouldn't have children out of wedlock?
    
    	Dave (married 22 years approx.)
    P.S. wasn't it Pam Smart who believed in "'till death do us part", or
    have I got the name wrong ;-}

The problem with "till death do us part" is that the majority of couples
merely mouth the words without really, truly meaning it.  And who can blame
them - it's nearly an impossible commitment to make so early in life.  So
they say the words, but when the going gets tough, they say "well, I really
didn't mean it" and they're gone.

It was with this thought in mind that Leslie and I asked Mel Regnell to
write "Promises to Keep" (see HUMAN_RELATIONS note 1173) to be read during
our wedding ceremony.  And our own vows were carefully chosen to be promises we
knew we could keep. We fully intend to be together as long as we live, and
have committed ourselves to the relationship, but, each of us having had
a former spouse who walked out, we believe that making realistic promises
increases the chance that we can keep them.  And increases the chance that
we'll work through the rough spots.  It's all we can ask of each other.

In case you're interested, here is how our vows read (my side):

  Leslie, I ask you to be my wife.  I pledge to share my life openly with
  you, to speak the truth to you in love; I promise to treat you with
  respect and tenderly care for you, to cherish and encourage your own
  fulfillment as an individual through all the changes of our lives.

Promises are meaningless when they're made on behalf of someone else, and
I'd say that most couples who recite the standard vows haven't REALLY
thought about what they mean.  Later on, they may feel bound to them, or
not, as the case may be.  But it isn't often that they are words from the
heart.

					Steve

    I've just printed that out.  I'll tuck it away as
    a model, if I ever get to that step, Steve.  -- nice.
    
    Wil

    It seems that a thought that has come to mind in Steve Lionels remarks
    indicates that the younger you marry the higher the chance of divorce
    before your 5-7 years are up. Seems like some folks view the comitment
    as if they were going steady, or just and extension to the dating
    rites that you have been conducting all along. 

    I've always heard that things will generally run in cycles of '7' and
    that many marriages fail, or begin to fail, around that cycle... that
    we make major changes around these periods in our lives... changes in
    clothing, foods, locations, relationships.  I've heard that if one gets
    through the cycle... then one has a better chance at keeping the
    relationship in place.
    
    For example, with me.  I met someone at 21, joined the Air Force, moved
    from Tennessee to Texas for a brief stay, then moved to Colorado, and
    married at 22.  At 28, starting having major problems with the
    marriage, evicted from my home at 29, divorced at 30.  At 35, I'm
    engaged and 'fixing' to get married again, fight a custody battle for
    my son, and find a house.
    
    The seven year cycles... 21, 28, 35.  Check out my paragraph above
    again, and compare.  A law of nature?  You decide.  For me, I learned
    that according to my sign, that my life would follow this pattern.
    

    I do believe in cycles (the economy, for certain, follows regular
    cycles; political/public opinion on various issues follow cycles;
    clothing/style/attitudes; lots of things in nature do too), and, in
    fact, my marriage ended after having known my ex for 7 years, so I
    suppose I should be a believer...
    
    BUT, I definitely think that we can exert some control over these
    cycles, and are not powerless against them...   I use information like
    this as a 'warning'...  that things MIGHT be tense after 7 years in a
    relationship, so talk more with your spouse and work through it..
    
    Also, re: -1,  I think there's a natural tendency to try and shape the 
    facts to fit the theories you believe in, and you may have done so...
                   
>    For example, with me.  I met someone at 21, joined the Air Force, moved
>    from Tennessee to Texas for a brief stay, then moved to Colorado, and
>    married at 22.  At 28, starting having major problems with the
>    marriage, evicted from my home at 29, divorced at 30.  At 35, I'm
>    engaged and 'fixing' to get married again, fight a custody battle for
>    my son, and find a house.
    
    You had an 8 year marriage, and are getting engaged 5 years later...
                                                                          
    Dave                                                                 

    
>>>    You had an 8 year marriage, and are getting engaged 5 years later...
    
Dave, let me explain further.
    
First marriage cycle...

No Dave, though it looks like I had an 8 yr marriage.  I married at 22 and
the divorce *was final* at 30, however, she filed for divorce 8 months before I
turned 30!  I was still 29!   [29 - 22 = 7]

As for getting married again...

And from that time, (29), till now, (I'll be 36 next month), we're talking
about 7 years, give or take a couple of weeks.  [29 + 7 = 36]

NOTE:  Things don't have to happen on the 7 year mark on the dot!  Approaching
the end of a cycle, OR the start of a new cycle is a time to exercise caution,
and not jump into uncharted waters.

I do believe *we* control our lives, as we have options.  But it's a critical
decision time, in my opinion.

Your mileage may vary!
                                   

    RE:  this 7 yr. itch thing
    
    7 is a safe number to use as a guide as to when a person will most
    likely experience some crisis.  However, crisis as used in this
    context is not meant to imply a trauma or tragedy or major change,
    but rather more of an emotional "cleaning out" or "spring cleaning".
    
    Each new decade of one's life is sure to be seen in a different
    perspective than that of the previous or yet still to come.  It's
    these periods of "change" in one's own mind or personality or life
    that does the actual "crisis" and not the external experiences in
    one's life only.
    
    I believe that's one cause of marriages failing at the "statistical
    7 year mark".   As a 29 year old, I see life and my past 7-10 years
    so very much differently than I did when 18.  When you have a couple
    experiencing their "7 year itch" at different times, that's when
    conflict arises.  And it's how that couple handle their changes
    both external and internally that determines the outcome of their
    union; for that matter, the individual's rest of life and future
    7 year itches.                           
    
    As a somewhat impulsive person, I've come to realize these mood
    swings and take caution to not react instantly but more slowly.
     This is a sign that I've matured past this "40" big deal early
    in my life and is sure to benefit me in the long run to come!