Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I tried to encapsule my experience in a men's group in
    
      VAXUUM::W4_:[PUBLIC.MEN]SUPPORT_GROUPS_DESC.PS
    
    It describes a weekly group that has been meeting for
    four years.
    
    Wil

My men's space contains sexual entanglements, yet I still seek 
out gay-male and mixed-male space frequently.  

I think that the primary attraction of gay-male space to me is sexual
freedom.  There is a growing attraction of "affection and brotherhood"
that I am getting out of my gay-male space, but that is new and much
scarier to me than the sexual part.  It's confusing yet very appealing
to me.  It feels like a mix of sex, nuclear family, and the type of
affection that you most often see in lovers; but the point of it all
is very much, "I love you, and I'll help take care of you (you don't
have to do it alone)."  I haven't seen a heterosexual equivalent of 
it; gay author Ethan Mordden calls it "The Sexy Brotherhood."

My male space (heterosexual men included) experiences are
difficult-yet-rewarding for me.  They are difficult in that I usually
spend some energy putting a leash my sexuality.  If I don't, at least
initially, there is a good chance that I will alienate some of the
guys.  The good part of the experience is twofold: 1) the great
connection when I keep seeing evidence that gay men and heterosexual
men aren't that different, and 2) an increasing awareness and
understanding of parts of me that seem very, very prevalent in most
men.   (When I get intellectual about it, it doesn't seem to make as
much sense.)  

Maybe I should put it this way: I "fit," in a different way, so much
better with a group of men than I do with a group of women (or mixed
group or gay-male group). It's part of a process of mine that involves
my desire to stop apologizing about who I am, to stop trying to squash
parts of me that may not neatly fit a feminist agenda.  My work in
male-space helps me to feel "whole"; it complements my feminism very,
very well.  It satisfies me in that grey emotinal area in which
feminism (experiences in feminist groups, I should say) always felt so
awkward (like wearing some clothes that fit and some that don't). 

And, when I want to get rid of the sexual tension all together, I seek 
out the company of my women friends.  Sometimes gay men get campy and
refer to this as "girl talk."  (Sometimes they refer to talk among gay
men as "girl talk," but I maintain that those conversations have a
very, very different tone [usually bitchy, gossipy, and sexually
aggressive] than the discussions with women involved.)  Underlying
that joke is the idea that a lot of gay men bond better with women,
and experience their more tumultuous and emotionally-dangerous
relationships with other men. 

There is something liberating in removing the sexual tension by being 
in a group of people to whom you are not attracted sexually.  However, 
there is something liberating about being in a room with people who 
share your characteristics and understand them implicitly, without you 
taking energy to explain them.

							--Gerry

    I don't know if I really seek out "Just Women" groups or not.  But
    I will say that I do agree with "women only" or "men only" groups.
     I feel the Boy Scouts should remain the Boys Only Scouts and Girl
    Scouts the "the Girls only Scouts".  If someone prefers mixed groups,
    they should seek "coed scouts".  This comes to me from the recent
    news story of the 8 year old girl who wanted to join the boy scouts.
    
    Anyway, if the girls want more challenging tasks or rewards, then
    why not pursue them under "girls only" or "women only" clubs.  And
    I do know how boring the Girl Scouts were some 19+/- years ago.
    
    The guys night out is fine with me.  Come to think of it, I do enjoy
    hanging out with the women folk.  I like gabbing with my sisters
    and other girlfriends.  It's fun and funny!

    Well, as a non-gay male that doesn't go to weekly support groups, I
    guess I would add a different perspective...
    
    I have several different settings/events/groups of guys that I hang out
    with, but I guess the experiences are similar...   We mostly talk about
    sex, women, sports, women, sports, women, sex, women, sports, and sex...
    ;-)  (OK, OK, bash away ;-)
    
    But I'm serious!  And I think you'll find _most_ men, when they are in
    a group of other men, do exactly the same thing!  (In other words, this
    notesfile, IMO, does not tend to represent your 'average male' very
    well.)
    
    Very rarely will a serious subject come up - we all get too much of
    that elsewhere.  But when it does, invariably the subject is about, or
    quickly turns to, women, sex, or sports! ;-)  I can count on one hand
    the amount of times I have talked about politics, religion, "male
    bonding", "males role in society", "male v. female gender issues", or
    the other dozens of topics that this notesfile seems to revel in... 
    Which is fine!  Perhaps men should do more of this type of discussion,
    but I just wanted to get in here with my $.02 before the average woman
    thinks the average man gets together with his buddies to be sensitive,
    sharing, and loving...   It just doesn't happen that often.
    
    Dave
    
    

    
    re. 4
    
    And very honest. Thanks
    
    
    bonnie

>    Well, as a non-gay male that doesn't go to weekly support groups, I
>    guess I would add a different perspective...

How _dare_ you say this!!!

Our meetings are _monthly_, not _weekly_!!!   ;-)

Most of my gay-male relating these days is done by being a member of a
softball team.  Not exactly a "support group."  And I'll bet that we
talk sex at least as much as any group of heterosexual men.  Most of
the "deep talk" happens in pairs, not in the group.  In the group of
softball, it's "pass me a beer, did you see the pecs on that one???" 

This is a bit hard to put into words, but I like the drinking/sex of
the softball team.  It gives something to me that other all-male
groups--groups that deal in politics and/or deeper relating--don't
give me.  If I could describe the "it", I'd have a good essay or short
story.  It has something to do with passion and power.  A kind of 
bawdy gusto.  As I said to a friend of mine, the gay softball team 
seems to live life as a Shout.  I like that...sometimes.

							--Gerry    

re:   <<< Note 608.6 by TNPUBS::GFISHER "Work that dream and love your life" >>>

>> .......					In the group of
softball, it's "pass me a beer, did you see the pecs on that one???" 

Funny, I hear the same thing at women's softball games :-).

Jenna

    I find that as my relationship with my wife grows I have less need
    for "male space". On the other hand I don't see that need going away.
    I have a number of male friends that I see in all male groups or just
    one on one from time to time. Largely we talk about things that the
    women in our lives are not interested in. But we also talk about women.
    For me that male space is a chance to blow off some steam and say some
    things about women that I don't really mean. We can complain about the
    little things that women do that bother us without anyone getting upset
    or taking it seriously. I find that this makes it easier to talk to my
    wife about them later. The tension is gone so we can talk without blowing 
    things out of proportion. I just realized that the last sentence works 
    two ways. 

    There is no tension among the guys. Saying things that would make to
    tension with my wife gets that aspect of it out of my system and so
    reduces tension when I do talk to her. 

    		Alfred

>    I love my woman space. I like to get together with a bunch of women,
>    I like the camaraderie that comes more easily when no men are around.
    
>    What is men's space? Do men need their own space? What do they do in
>    this space? What do they NOT do in this space? Is men's space used the
>    same way I use women's space? Is it possible for men to be as open,
>    supportive, affectionate in a parallel setting? How do we seperate
>    "men's space", from networking space, which needs to be
>    gender-independent?
    
For myself, I need space. It can be alone or with friends, I do not need a 
constant crowd moving at high speed to be happy. I spend a lot of time 
doing "lonely stuff"; that is, wood carving, woodworking, photography, etc. 
I need that space as much as you need your circle of friends or someone 
else needs a constant party around them.  

Much of my space is lonely space, I NEED to be alone and clear my brain,
think through the bits and pieces of life, and sort out the problems. I
enjoy myself alone, something I am not sure some people can do. I can be 
alone cutting the grass, pursuing hobbies, or in a crowd of people at a 
restaurant or reception and tune them out if I need to. My time alone and 
apart is necessary to my mental well being. I get testy and hard to 
live with if I don't get time alone on a regular basis.

On the other hand.....

I enjoy the company of other men and have some very good friends that I
can/have spent time with discussing some very deep topics. I doubt
seriously we are as open emotionally or physically as you would indicate.
Few hugs, little physical contact, but some very strong support. 

One weekend I spent down at the Cape with 11 others was very close and
supportive, although one man's marrage was falling apart. He needed support
but could not describe what was wrong with the marriage; he acted like we
should all know what was wrong with it. I don't think it was a case that he
could not express it, he just didn't because he felt it would be
repetative. The marriage has failed since then and I still don't know the
problems, although anymore it is not any of my business. Others are still
close after getting to know them better from that weekend. 

I don't have nearly the volume or number of times of sharing as you infer 
for your life. Men don't seem, in my experiance, to do this as much as 
women do although if I was more involved in sporting events, drinks after 
work, etc, it might be different.

On the third hand..... (what??? how's that work?)

I had some bluefish this weekend that I did not want (my son caught them, 
brought them home, but we don't care for them) and I called several friends 
to find a taker. A woman that works for me did want them so I drove 
over to her house, dropped the fish off, and then spent another hour and 
a half on her deck talking to her and her housemate (also female) and her 
sister. Had a wonderful time, had to pull myself away to get home again. 
Did not feel I was imposing on her space but enjoyed the company of three 
nice ladies and was included in much of what was clearly a "woman's group", 
that is, all the banter and philosophy that I would not expect to be 
included into. A delightful day and a chance to get to know my employee 
better. So similar grouping and space can happen for men, both alone and 
with other men, and occasionally with mixed company. 

    Vic

    What is men's space? 
    
    Having a few beers with the guys after work, shooting the breeze in the
    locker room at a health center, playing on athletic teams, and just
    generally finding groups of guys that enjoy the same thing you do.
    
    Is it necessary?  
    
    Absolutely!  Guys need social reinforcement just as much as women do.
    Maybe more.
    
    Mike

    What is "mens space"?  I can tell you only from the perspective of my
    environment and what *I* like.  It means, simply, NO WOMEN.
    
    I remember quite well when we had our after-office-hours-beer-drinking
    sessions ... one of the guys would invariably call his wife to come
    drink beer with us ... it bugged the hell out of me.  I felt
    "restrained" with her around ... she was nice, good looking,
    understanding, friendly, all that, but, I simply didn't want any women
    around.  I'm from the Old South and find it quite difficult to "cut
    loose" with women around ...
    
    With just the guys around (all of them field service) we could drink
    all we wanted, say anything we wanted, and do (nearly) anything that we
    wanted and just have one hell of a good time ... we felt "free".
    
    Even today, I'll drive 40 miles to a (true) redneck bar, drink beer,
    shoot pool, tell (filthy) jokes ... everytime a female joins our table,
    it stops ... 
    
    Do I need it?  You bettcha.  Do I enjoy it?  You bettcha.  Will I
    continue?  You bettcha.
    
    Is it "right"?  Is it "wrong"?  I don't know.  Don't really care.
    
    Bubba

.10 says much about what has been in my mind since I read .0 yesterday.
To me, the "men's space" means being alone observing, thinking, listening
to Beethoven, reading T.S. Eliot, and in general contemplating my soul, 
to borrow a cliche.  For example, I played tennis after work today then came 
home and just finished Beethoven's Eroica, and it is..., well, I can't find
the words to describe my feelings right now.  So what is there to talk 
about?  By the way, the presence of other people, will be mostly a 
distraction for what I did after work today.

Women may find the need to have a "women's space" to bond and mature and
to explore what it means to be women.  On the other hand, there is
something fundamentally different about being male.  To understand ourselves
as males requires something very different since femininity and masculinity
are not the same.  In fact, they are opposite of each other in many respect.
What works with women in exploring their identities does not necessarily
work with men.  This is why I am skeptical about those "wildman gathering".
They look at the feminist movement and say: "Hey, they have 'women's space'
with a lot of women being open, supportive, affectionate, and in general, 
talk about intimate things.  Let's have some 'men's space'", and be..., 
well, open, supportive, affectionate.  Now, I have nothing against being 
open, supportive, and affectionate, and us men sure can improve in those 
areas, but this sort of things are essentially about exploring the feminine 
side, and has very little to do with exploring our male identity.  By the
way, I am not encouraging men to be anti-social.  It is just that
I personally don't find the need for a "men only" gathering.

* * *

Most of the "men's get together" I know inevitably fall into three categories.
First there is the booze and football crowd where a bunch of men gather
in front of the TV watching a ball game and drinking beer.  The topics
are mostly Wine Women and Songs--Cheap booze, lots of truly distasteful
jokes about women (I can't drink beer due to allergy problem.  I supposed one
may be able enjoy those jokes with a lot of booze in the blood) and wild 
howling when their favorite teem scores.  

Then there is the workaholics crowd.  This is most evident in the Digital 
parties.  You would hear a lot of VMS, VAX, DEC, DCL, MMS, CMS most of which 
I don't have a clue, but I find the conversation mildly amusing. 
 
Then there are the rare occasions when we talk about ourselves, but even then,
we talk more about what we do and what we observe than how we feel.  To tell the
truth, I find much of my day to day life pretty mundane and the feelings 
from day to day too trifle to share.  On those days when I actually have 
some enlightenment, it is usually either too technical or too personal to 
convey the experience.  I worked out some of the fine details of Galois 
Theory, and I am quite excited about, and a friend called over the weekend, 
and I told him about what I did.  But within five minutes I realized that he 
didn't have a clue about what I was talking about.  Then he started talking 
about some of his hobbies and I pretended to be interested and tried to ask 
a few "questions", and then he realized I didn't have a clue either.  At
that point, he asked, "How is the weather in Boston?"

Eugene

    
    you mistook menspace for galois space maybe .. ?

    re .14,
    
    Uh, Bob, how is the weather in Boston?

    Right on target, Eugene. Me too.
    
    I find that the main way I relate to other men is in the exchange of
    information. What neat software have you gotten for the PC? What are
    these object-oriented programming terms? Ooh, a new tax deduction. THAT
    means you need a ring job.
    
    I guess this means these are things I care about. Sports, broads, the
    news, I could care less about. This makes an occasion of hanging with
    the guys a pretty discouraging prospect.
    
    It's saddest with old friends. Rather than the weather, we tend to
    isolate on music. Generic form:
    
        "Have you heard of __________?"
        "No! I'll have to check them out!"
        "Hey, I'll send you a tape!"
    
    Trying our best to have something in common, and pretty much failing.
    
    - Hoyt

yeah, I do the 'male bonding thing' for sure, and it's important for
me to stay in touch with my friends, but I find it more important
to stay close to the wife and kids and yes, myself..   
For me hangin out with the guys is great, but...

Like Vic, I have some interests that require "loner time". Again,
like Vic, they include Photography, Dark room work, scale model building.
Gee Vic, don't we have just tons in common..   Had I know this
when we worked in PKO together,,,,  could have done some field trips
with cameras..  Oh well..

Anyway, getting back to the point-   These are things that I find
whittle away the idle hours, allow me to slow down for a bit,
and yes, clear my head.   I'm quite a perfectionist, and sometimes
being a perfectionist is a lonely thing.  so better for me to concentrate
on the things I enjoy doing, with out imposing my attention for detail
on others.

Also, having spent the last 20 years as a guitar playing fool, I've
spent a lot of time in bands, and 98% of those bands were all male
groups.  Last one ran about 10 years, and we had a ton of fun together,
and now, even though the band has ended, the friendship hasn't.  That
also brings up more "loner time", and that's private practicing which
I do daily...  I find I require that "loner time" more then any of the
other things I do alone.

The space I consider most improtant to me though, is the time
when I can be alone with my wife, and kids.  She comes from a big family,
and there's alot of room for comotion when we all get together often. 
Nothing beats a friday or saturday night when the kids are at 'grams'
and my wife and I step out for a quiet dinner, follwed by an intimate evening.
Wouldn't trade those moments for years.

The guys, we'll they'll have to wait..

    If all you want to do is talk dirty, drink beer, and watch football,
    that's not sex-specific. There are plenty of women who have similar
    interests.  No given need for "men's space" there.
    
    Like most people, I am most comfortable and have the best time with
    people who share similar interests -- or at least similar outlooks on
    life.   For me that means people who are funny and sardonic, interested
    and aware of the complexity of life around them and willing to talk
    about and argue about everything from politics to potty-training,
    movies to microprocessers. Hell, I'll even talk about football (and
    I'll *certainly* drink beer), as long as you don't make me sit and watch
    it. I can't imagine that sex-specific segregation would in any way
    enhance any social gathering that I would want to participate in.  On
    the contrary.
    
    Kit

    Every once in awhile, I've caught myself in a setting where about
    4 or more guys are sitting around talking and stuff.  It's right
    interesting and funny sometimes.  They talk about some of the same
    things women do.  They spoke about their present girlfrieds, who
    got who pregnant, who broke up with who, who was right or wrong.
     Whenever they talked about work, I was definitely lost.  It mostly
    evolved around bosses, promotions, who looked better in uniform.
     Funny stuff again.  Who could take who on.
    
    

An observation:

It seems from the replies to this note that one of the main reasons to have
men's space is to relax because they feel they have to act differently when
they are around women.  

True or False?

If true, what would happen if you 'let it all hang out' (figuratively 8-)
with women around?


>>>Ken

    RE .20
    
    What would happen:
    
    At work; You would be repremanded or fired.
    
    In public; You would only be around 'truckstop' women.
    
    
    MHO
    Steve

I understand the argument that both men and women can drink, watch 
football, and swear.  (And I understand the position that some men 
take in which they choose not to behave that way in front of women, 
because of their personal value system).

All I can say is that I have been in groups in which men and women 
have acted bawdy.  (The most recent was the Beantown [Gay] Softball 
League benefit talent show, won by the women's softball team; much 
drag, much gender bending, much drinking, and much rowdiness.)  
However, it _feels_ different when I'm with all (mixed) men, with all 
gay men, with men and lesbians, and with a mixed group.  And it's the 
feeling that I seek out when it has been a while since I've felt that 
way last.  And it does feel like a need or a drive.

So I don't think it's the activity (drinking beer and talking about
sex, or sitting around sewing); I think it's the participants, and the
innecessity to "explain" or "translate" a part of you because everyone
in the room shares that same attribute.  It's a kind of freedom, I 
think.

I loved the freedom I felt when the gay men and lesbians put on that 
talent show and got rowdy together.  But it's not the same sense of 
freedom I feel in my men's core group (mixed orientations) or in 
gay-male groups.  I want all those combinations of groups in my life, 
and I don't want to make one of them "better" than another, or to pin 
a specific activity to a group ("men's groups can only drink beer, 
swear, and talk about sex," for instance).

							--Gerry

 Much of it is the fact that you don't have to place endless disclaimers around
every sentence. Nobody's going to get whipped into a frenzy of righteous
indignation over one innocently uttered but politically incorrect phrase
or another. You can say how you feel even if it isn't nice, or right, or
fair. You can blow off steam without others feeling hurt.

 Like Gerry says, it isn't just the activities; it's the atmosphere.

 The Doctah

    Let's face it: we ALL play TONS of roles in our daily life...  let me
    think of the ones I've played this week:
    
    - devoted Digital employee (around my boss)
    - disgruntled, bitchin' Deccie (co-workers)
    - good son
    - good brother
    - gentleman (date)
    - business partner (my business on the side)
    - slob (at home, by myself ;-)
    - partier (this weekend, with a couple dozen friends)
    
    My point is, I act VERY differently in different environments, with
    different people.  The "all male" environment is simply one more of
    these - no more, or less, important than any other, IMO...   And when a
    women enters the picture, it changes the environment, and I change
    appropriately.
    
    I don't see it as any big deal, really...  The topics of conversation
    change, the words, mannerisms, inflections, tone, body language - all
    change depending on the group your in at the time...
    
    Dave

    Re .23:
    
    It's wrong, possibly, to state or imply (is this presumptious?) that
    it's always, frequently, or often necessary or helpful or in the least
    non-destructive to qualify statements, maybe.
    
    - Hoyt

    Re: .23  This implies that nothing you ever say is going to piss off the
    "boys", and that you're always likely to offend the "girls".  If you
    don't hang around with men who would "get whipped into a frenzy of
    righteous indignation over one innocently but politically incorrect
    phrase or another", why on earth would you hang out with women who do
    so?
    
    Kit 

>    It's wrong, possibly, to state or imply (is this presumptious?) that
>    it's always, frequently, or often necessary or helpful or in the least
>    non-destructive to qualify statements, maybe.

 Hoyt-

 You just gave me a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I wrote something
that had no disclaimers, and you called me on it as a member of the 
anti-generalization police force. Don't you ever wish you could just say stuff
without having to qualify it to the nth degree? Without having to listen to
the nit-pickers offer their single anecdotal counterexample (in the face of the
innumerable examples you could give if you had the energy)? That's what I'm 
talking about. When you're with the boys, you get the benefit of the doubt when
you make unqualified statements. They know what you're saying because in 
addition to your words they know about you, how you feel about things, who you 
are, etc and are unlikely to get excited over a generalization. It's like being
allowed to speak in shorthand. You get to let your guard down for a while.

Kit:

>This implies that nothing you ever say is going to piss off the
>    "boys", and that you're always likely to offend the "girls".

 That may be your inference but it does not necessarily follow (nor is it
accurate.)

>If you don't hang around with men who [...] why on earth would you hang out 
>with women who do so?

 Men who don't are more common. Your mileage may vary.

 The Doctah

    I don't know Doctah, I know a bunch of guys that never let you
    generalize about anything because they always have to have the last
    word on every subject.  I exclude them from my men-only task force.
    
    I mean, You say something like, "I love summer, no snow, no ..." and
    they say something like: "Remember, June 10, 1983, blizzard"
    
    ed
    

    Well, Doctah, here's my generalization: I think you're talking about a
    level of comfort and camaradarie that allows you pretty much to say
    what's on your mind, and I can think of a lot of reasons more likely to
    inhibit that level of comfort than the sex of the group members.
     
    And I'll add that the high level of comfort is sometimes bought at the
    cost of limiting the range of subjects that is acceptable to discuss
    among buddies. Nothing inherently wrong there -- no need always to be
    pushing the envelop. But take the broads-booze-ball buddy-circles that
    have been held up as typical examples here. the
    I-can-say-anything-because-they-understand-me bonhomie could very
    quickly bring on serious disapproval, if not outright hostility, if
    someone started talking about stuff that didn't fit that carefully
    constructed parameters of that small society.
    
    Kit

>    And I'll add that the high level of comfort is sometimes bought at the
>    cost of limiting the range of subjects that is acceptable to discuss
>    among buddies. Nothing inherently wrong there -- no need always to be
>    pushing the envelop. But take the broads-booze-ball buddy-circles that
>    have been held up as typical examples here. the
>    I-can-say-anything-because-they-understand-me bonhomie could very
>    quickly bring on serious disapproval, if not outright hostility, if
>    someone started talking about stuff that didn't fit that carefully
>    constructed parameters of that small society.

 Oh, absolutely! No question about it, you'd get some pretty strange looks
if you tried to go deep on 'em. (Some of 'em, anyway.) At least about men-stuff.
You can talk about relationships with women, and deep stuff about male-female
relationships without a problem. (Not just "she's got nice ones." <grunt>) But
if you tried to deal with, say, homosexuality, for-get-it!

 Men aren't used to discussing their feelings. <std_disclaimers> Men are used
to discussing their sex drives, passions ('specially about sports), things
that make them angry. Not about sadness, loneliness, nurturing, etc.

 You're exactly right- being able to say how you feel is not limitless. You've
gotta restrict the topics to comfortable ones.

 The Doctah

>>    I-can-say-anything-because-they-understand-me bonhomie could very
>>    quickly bring on serious disapproval, if not outright hostility, if
>>    someone started talking about stuff that didn't fit that carefully
>>    constructed parameters of that small society.
>
> Oh, absolutely! No question about it, you'd get some pretty strange looks
>if you tried to go deep on 'em. (Some of 'em, anyway.) At least about men-stuff.

Yes, I've gotten some of those strange looks.  Last night, I was with 
some of the guys from the softball team and we were talking about 
sex...again.  I replied to something by saying, "Well, I guess that 
just makes me a polymorphously perverse pig."  Three guys looked at me 
as if I had grown another head, but a fourth said, "Nice 
alliteration!"

Even though the range of what you can talk about is limited, I find 
that it sets up an environment in which men can become comfortable and 
then form deeper relationships in pairs.  After my softball game last 
Saturday, a teammate and I went to get something to eat before coming 
back to watch our A team play.  During that time, we had a very 
sensitive and deep converation, and I think I may be on my way to 
making a close friend.  But that friendship will be born out of 
drinking-sports-'hot men'.

I also think that, just because the society is limited in emotional
and topical range, it doesn't mean that there isn't something
important and necessary going on there. 

>You can talk about relationships with women, and deep stuff about male-female
>relationships without a problem. (Not just "she's got nice ones." <grunt>) But
>if you tried to deal with, say, homosexuality, for-get-it!

I tried to talk about het sex last night, and I got the same reaction.
Not so much that I was "weird," but they all got looks like they just 
stepped in something.  Oh well! 

> Men aren't used to discussing their feelings. <std_disclaimers> 

Have you heard the radio commercial (I think it's Bud Light): Why do 
men show so little emotion around women?  Why do men show so much 
emotion around other men: "Joe!!!  Box seats!!!  I could _kiss_ 
you!!!"   (I thought it was funny.)


							--Gerry

Re: .31

I love that ad.  "Fred!  A Weedwhacker!  You shouldn't have!"  Meanwhile
the ad suggests (rather truthfully) that men have a difficult time
expressing their emotions to women; "Great negligee, hon.  Would you
mind moving? You're blocking the TV."

			Steve

    
    I'm kinda surprised reading that sex is discussed a lot when
    men get together. I never talk about it nor do the men I get
    together with occassionally. Admittedly, as a teenager, it was
    something to talk about. Now though, I consider it something quite
    private.
    
    							Hank

    Hank,
    
    	The reason that you do not discuss it much is you are not in the
    mate hunting mode as many of the single men. I know that when I was
    single, prior to recient divorce, it was a major topic. And where we
    were going hunting this weekend. While I was married, it seemed that
    because I could find sex at home, I hardly talked about it. Seems like
    there was a higher plane of converstations in leu to it. Then there
    were some of my married friends who talked about some bo-datious
    creature with lovely taa-taa's in the office or bending over, or with
    a short skirt and long legs trying to get into a very small car...:)
    
    George

>While I was married, it seemed that because I could find sex at home, I 
>hardly talked about it.

 I think it goes deeper than that. When you're married, if you talk about
a specific activity, everybody pretty much knows who you're talking about.
When you're a young stud wannabee, bragging about what near perversion you
convinced some girl to engage in with you is a badge of manhood. When you're
married, the same activity would not inspire the same desire to brag. I think
it's related to the madonna/whore thing, personally. We don't want to hear
about our wives, sisters, etc doing stuff like that; only "dirty" girls do.
Most men seem quite happy to separate females into sexual and nonsexual 
categories; I know I would be uncomfortable listening to some punk bragging
about what he did with one of my daughters. But I wouldn't feel the same way if
I heard some guy bragging about some unknown, faceless "dirty" girl.

 The whole sex thing is an emotional morass...

 The Doctah

    
    Good points George. Most of my friends are also married.
    No sense talking about something you don't do anymore.
    Hmmm... must be why we all just sit there and stare at each other,
    with one of us occassionally sobbing uncontrollably.

    Doc and Hank,
    
    	Thanks! Glad yha like it!:) Flattery wont go to my head! Gee, hope
    I can get into that mini truck tonight?:)

    	I find when I'm with just the "guys", I can allow myself to relax
    and say what I want about anything without the worry of having to
    defend the position I hold to the death. Things I don't worry about:
    
    - Saying the word 'girl'
    - Belching
    - Farting
    - Saying the 'F' word
    - Saying the 'C' word
    - Commenting on any female that passes by
    - Being politically correct
    - Valuing someone else's difference
    - Telling a joke
    - etc. etc.
    
    	I have never been to a mixed gathering where any or all of the
    above can be accomplished without someone blowing a gasket, usually a
    female. Mixed groups today have a tendency to make every conversation
    milktoast. If you're conservative, you're anti-human, if you're
    liberal, you're anti-free enterprise........It's sort like a sign at
    the door that states "Check testosterone at door".
    
    	Gen. Beeler, I'm with you. I just need to have some man space where
    I can be male, man, mano, macho, or just plain gross to my heart's
    content without worry.
    
    

.38> Gen. Beeler, I'm with you. I just need to have some man space where
.38> I can be male, man, mano, macho, or just plain gross to my heart's
.38> content without worry.

OK, I'll be in New England between 7 July and 28 July so let's you and
I go have a brew or 20 and ..."cut loose"! :-)

.38> I have never been to a mixed gathering ...

Fact of the matter is, in today's environment I am rather "selective" about
the men-only-space that I participate in.  There are some guys (a very small
number, thank <insert deity>) who take 'offense' at each and every thing in
your list.  That's fine and super-dandy ... I respect that ... but ... I don't
want 'em around when I'm having a 'cut loose' session with the guys, you
know, the 'real men' ... :-)

General Bubba Beauregard

PS - You should see the 'group' of men-only when Platoon 238, K-Company, 
     2nd Battalion, USMC (my Parris Island group) gets together.... I
     fear for the future of humanity when we get together ... :-)

    Taboo subjects in a 'mens group:'
    
    	Their daughters womanly attributes.
    	Their wifes womanly attributes (this is sometimes acceptable
    	 however)
    
    
    Those are the only ones I can think of that are not acceptable with 
    my group.
    
    Steve

I haven't noticed a big difference in the amount of "sex talk" between 
the single gay guys and the guys with lovers.  The only difference that I 
can detect is that the guys with lovers tend to talk more about 
"objects of desire" and less about what they actually do (since we all 
know who he's talking about).

I think there might be a sexual-orientation difference, here.

							--Gerry

    	Re:General.....
    
    I'll make myself available at your bequest.....I'm in the DEC phone
    book at NIO.....
    
    Ken

    I find my conversations with female friends being roughly identical to
    those with my male friends in terms of subject matter, range, and
    comfortableness.  I guess that's because they all know why I'm PC and
    once that's out in the open... ;^)
    
    Jim