Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    Wil,
    	I only have experience with this in two cases.....my ex, and my
    new girlfriend.
    	The first case...my ex, this PMS was probibly the cause of the
    devorce.  It seemed to get so bad that she had PMS 3 weeks out of the
    month.  I just couldn't take it anymore.  She couldn't handle anything
    without bitching about it.  She would take her problems out on me and
    our son.  I couldn't handle that...the poor kid!
        The second case...my girlfriend, isn't as bad.  I can tell though,
    about 3 days before her period begins, all hell could break loose if 
    I wasn't carefull.  She gets totally unreasonable and goes in only one
    direction.  
    	To be honest, I really haven't figured it out.....stay out of the
    way, try to confort her.  Man, its crazy sometimes.  The only time we
    do fight is PMS time.  I thought that not having her be on the pill
    would help, but, no.  You would figure there would be some kind of 
    drug they could take that would help them out durring this time of the
    month.
    	Then, when I ask her if she is getting ready to start her period,
    she gets all pissed off at me.  
    	We are suposto handle it though......right?
    
    		Are all women like this?
    
    	HW
    

    Wil,
    
    First of all, by all means, "get the hell out of the way when she is
    like that" :-) :-)   Just kidding, sounds like you had some healthy
    communication going on...  I had a similar experience, but I'm lazy
    enough that I just wrote a little '28-day program' ;-) on the computer
    to remind me 'when to be extra forgiving and nice'...  ('Course, now
    that I'm going to court Thursday to finalize my divorce, I'm not sure
    you want to follow what I did ;-)
    
    But seriously, I wanted to add that there is growing evidence that men,
    to a lesser extent than women, but still a measurable phenomena, also
    experience cyclical mood swings...  I, evidently, am very susceptible
    to this phenomena...  In fact, you know how women talk about their
    cycles matching over time?  (No?  well, its been well documented that
    after a period of time (I had to leave that in there, even though as
    soon as I typed it, I thought about what a terrible pun it was ;-),
    anyway, women in the same (usually small, close quarters) office often 
    experience slight timing changes in their cycles, and eventually get on
    very similar cycles (everybody on the first of the month for example).
    
    As I started to say, I have very noticable mood swings, which have not
    appeared to be related to any 'external' (work, stress, etc.) factors.
    In fact, virtually every month, the week after my ex ended her cycle,
    _I_ would be very down for almost a week!  Wierd, I know, but it happened 
    dozens of times over our 7-year relationship.
    
    We always laughed it off as "I was so sick and tired of being nice all
    week that now, dammit, its MY turn to be a miserable SOB" :-)  I was
    definitely interested to read in the studies that showed that this may
    not be 'all in my (our) heads', but that men may also have a (MUCH less
    powerful) cyclical chemical shift as well...  
    
    Anybody else hear any more about this recently? (or at all?)
    
    Dave

    "Stay the hell out of the way!"
    

    Will:
    
    I think it is the responsiblity of the woman to be aware of her
    own bodily changes, and her own calender in regard to her menstrual
    cycle. I've been through PMS hell in one relationship, and this
    was before the condition was generally understood as a valid
    medical phenomenon. Through the experience of this, and eventually
    finding some medical help, I ended up appreciating how much emotional
    and physical distress she was going through, but did not then and do
    not now believe it is my responsiblity to be dumped on, or be a target
    during this time.
    
    From the women I have known, PMS symptoms and severity vary greatly,
    and some women have such irregular cycles that the calender doesn't
    always help. Only the women can be attuned to the changes going on
    in her body, and with the awareness that she has the problem, and
    th kind of problem she typically has, a solution can be worked out
    between the man and the woman to get them peacefully through this
    time. Sensitivity is needed on both sides. We men are not required
    to be mind-readers, though.
    
    -roger
    
    
    

    I have read that there was a woman who stabbed her husband while she
    was going thru PMS.. Sounds like this is the wrath of the womans
    scorn!:)

    re: .2
    
    As for the possibility of men's cycles, I almost started another
    note to ask about that...
    
    I know there are cases of men having sympathetic pregnancy 
    signs while their wives are pregnant.  (weight gain, morning 
    sickness, etc)  It doesn't surprise me that men might have 
    a "sympathetic period" to coincide with their partner's.
    
    I'd be interested in knowing if there are any observations of
    men having cyclical behavior even when they are isolated from
    women (say men in a prison population, or in a monastery). That
    might indicate that men's chemical/hormonal levels cycle 
    independent of their bond with a woman.
    
    I've heard that both men and women have a small amount of the 
    hormones of the other.  In a man, there is no need for hormonal
    levels to go up and down, because the man isn't readying one
    egg for fertilization and implantation every month and then
    cleaning up and starting over if it doesn't happen.  On the
    other hand, just because the rest of the plumbing isn't there
    to react to the change in hormone levels doesn't mean that
    some men's hormones don't cycle up and down (and in the process,
    produce mood swings).
    
    As for women "synchronizing,"  I've heard that too from a number
    of women.  Especially when they are going off together for
    say a "women's weekend."  A few will start late, a few will 
    start early and they will discover that a disproportionate number
    of them are all menstruating over the weekend.  I think that's
    a marvelous statement about the connection between body, psyche
    and mind.  The mind knows the women's weekend is coming up,
    the psyche starts dealing with the feeling of being with all
    those other women and the body says, "OK, I'll do the thing
    that is most womanly." 
    
    So, in a man, what would the parallel be?  Suppose I am going
    off to a men's workshop?  Hmmm.  I have gone to a number of
    2-day and 5-day men's workshops led by Robert Bly over the 
    last four years.  What did my body "say" to me?
    
    For the first one, in 1987, I got constipated. (I never get
    constipated at any other time.)   I probably
    did not pass anything until late in the third day.  And for
    each one since then, I have had constipation  (but less and
    less, so that now I can go to one of these workshops with
    little or no constipation).  I think of that constipating 
    as a "tightening up" process.  Fear.  Bristle.  Strut.  
    Be ready, alert, tense, etc.  Don't give anything away,
    be possessive.
    
    Bly talks about fear in these meetings (he says you can 
    almost smell it).
    
    And in 1987, I had a migraine headache after returning from
    the workshop.  My migraines are caused  by a dilation
    of blood vessels in the brain, around the optic nerve.
    I can usually relate a migraine to a recent period of
    high tension.    Did I relax after returning from the 
    workshop, get less tense, and allow blood vessels to dilate?
    
    So, my guess is that my body (and other men's bodies) got
    ready for a kind of "combat."  I was probably pumping a lot
    of testosterone around.  I think my body said, "OK, I'll
    do the thing that is most manly."
    
    There is a lot of belching and farting at men's workshops,
    especially on the first day.  The men laugh about it and
    reporters write about it as "little boys playing silly games."
    I think not.  I think it is male bodies adjusting to being
    together with a lot of strange males.
    
    I still get together every few months with a couple of dozen
    men that I met at a Bly 5-day retreat in 1988.  We have these
    one-day reunions.  These have a different feeling than the
    original retreat.  There is a lot of lying around on the floor
    in a big room, telling stories, some drumming, some ritual.
    We have reacted to stories by drawing something or working
    with clay or making a collage.  There is a release of tension,
    less tension than I had before I came to the reunion.  It
    opens the channels to imagination, dreams.  The body wants
    to lie down.  These are men that I trust, that I would trust
    with a secret.  No need for high testosterone levels at
    these reunions.
    
    (Gotta get back to work.)
    
    Wil
    
    
    
    Wil

    Keeping track of the cycle of the woman in ones life has long
    seemed a reasonable thing to do. I've done it for years. I joke
    about trying to schedule trips out of town based on it on occasion.

    In any case I know to be extra careful at some times. I also know that
    fights during "that time of the month" tend not to be that important.
    They're also hard to resolve so I usually wait a few days and then
    clear the air out. 
    
    Some women seem to track their schedule very closely. My wife just
    generally asks me. :-) I think in some ways that's good. It means
    she's not getting all up tight about it which I would think would
    make it worse. Also she knows that I'm aware of her and what is
    happening to her so she knows I care.
    
    			Alfred

    RE: .7
    
    That sounds like a nice arrangement, Alfred.  I wouldn't
    mind counting days if the counting was appreciated, and
    if it led to better relating.
    
    (While we're in this space, it might be useful to talk
    about menopause.)
    
    The same woman who didn't count days, and who didn't appreicate
    my counting during the first year or so of our relationship
    began to occasionally run late in the third year of our
    relationship (she had her tubes tied, so we did not "worry"
    about what this meant).   Then she got hives.  She was 
    45 years old.  Those are some of the starting symptoms of 
    menopause but she was into denial pretty quick on that.
    I never figured out whether she was denying it to herself
    or only to me.  (She found someone else and ran off with him
    before I got to find out.)
    
    Are there others who feel like they were full participants
    while their partner went through menopause?   Or was it
    like PMS for a couple of years?
    
    Wil

    re.0
    My ex had PMS REAL BAD and she would turn totaly irritable during her
    time and she would always appologize after she gave a week or so of
    pure hell but never once could she realize during why she was so
    bitchy. When I get very tired I tend to be pretty irritable myself
    and I know this so I am very careful to bite my tongue when I feel
    like saying or doing things. Does PMS cause a brain crash or does
    it make the victim so irritable they are incapible of self control?
    From my experience it seems that one or the other must be true.
    
    
    -j

    
    All this stuff bout keeping calendar's, blood being 'exercised' in men
    and women, workshops, ... heh, heh, heh...
    
    Hey.  It's simple.  Back in the ole days women were tougher and didn't
    whine bout it.  Now days they whine if the mall closes early or "Beauty
    and the Beast" is cancelled!  So what do you expect when a little
    cramp pops up?!?
    

    
    
    	I like this discussion, you guys are really sensitive. I
    	thought you;d like a woman's point of view - Yes, it 
    	sneaks up on you. PMS can arrive one day before, three 
    	days before, changing from one month to the next. One minute
    	you're fine, then all of a sudden you want to RIP SOMEONE'S
    	FACE OFF, for no apparent reason, you feel confused and 
    	frustrated with yourself because you don't know why you feel
    	so jittery inside and unable to even `be around yourself', 
    	nevermind anybody else...The frustration builds until you're
    	ready to explode (and then you have a fight with your husband
    	because all of a sudden he appears to be an insensitive idiot,
    	I mean, doesn't he KNOW you're having a PMS attack??!!!)  :)
    
    	But, there are several things on the  market that help, Premesin,
    	Midol PMS, Pamprin, etc...And they do help, but different woman
    	respond to different ones, you just have to try them all. I
    	think all a man can do is be understanding, but the woman should
    	stop and think, `gee, I think I have PMS...'  I don't know why,
    	but the worst thing to do is ask if she's getting her period.
    	Maybe because some men use that phrase as an accusation that
    	comes out sounding like `gee, you're being extremely irrational
    	and out of control'. 
    
    	Well, that's a woman's point of view for you. I will add that
    	it's not so bad being off the pill *for me*, but every woman
    	is different. 
    
    	Sherry
    

>   Hey.  It's simple.  Back in the ole days women were tougher and didn't
>    whine bout it.  Now days they whine if the mall closes early or "Beauty
>    and the Beast" is cancelled!  So what do you expect when a little
>    cramp pops up?!?
    
    Yer Funny!
    
    Nah, in the old days women would get together and go AWAY from men when
    they menstruated.  Get some space.  Do some real bonding stuff.  Crazy
    Glue and all that.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    RE: .11  
    
    Thanks, Sherry.
    
    I asked in my men's group last night about other men's
    experiences with wives and PMS.
    
    All said that the worst thing that they can do is to
    ask or remind her that she is about to get her period.
    She explodes if they say anything about it.
    
    I've been trying to understand that.  Why?  I think it
    is understood by the woman as taking unfair advantage of
    her.  The man is still doing his rational, logical thing,
    and her system is focused in her body, not on rational,
    logical things.  That's what I mean about being pulled
    down into the body.  The system's energy is being expended
    in the body, not in the mind.  The mind is jumping all
    around and feeling pretty vulnerable, unable to cope in
    its usual ways, and here comes this man.  What does he do?
    Does he slow down too, make her a cup of herb tea, make some
    space in his busy schedule and listen to her talk about how
    she feels?  No, he's marching along doing his usual thing,
    and when she falls out of step with him, he points out that
    her mind has deserted her and she is irrational and she ought
    not to argue with him like that.  
    
    If I imagine myself in her place, I suppose I'd explode too.
    It would be hard not resent my body doing this to me month
    after month.  It would be hard to celebrate my body's cycling
    instead of cursing it.  And even if I got to the point of 
    being able to celebrate it, I could only imagine doing it 
    privately.  He only understands it as a loss of his normally
    rational partner.  He doesn't understand that I am "away"
    doing important work, specialized work that only I can
    bring to this relationship.  Can I expect him to celebrate
    with me, if I have to "go away" from him to do it?  Could I
    expect him to join me in some way?  Could I expect him to
    leave his rationality on a hook somewhere and come into this
    special place with me?
    
    Maybe that's why I am sometimes so horny right in the middle
    of my period!  I want him to join me where I am instead of
    resenting me for not being where he is.
    
    Hmmm....

    I well aware of my cycle and don't need reminding. I don't like being
    "reminded" -- it feels patronising, it serves no useful purpose, and is
    basically noise.
    
    I am well aware of my associated mood swings [which aren't terribly
    severe] and endeavour to integrate them into my life without hassle.
    
    That being said, 'keeping a calendar' is a highly recommended coping
    tool for those closest to me.  I don't require or expect it; but I'm
    not going to sit down over supper a week before onset of menses and
    say, "remember to be especially nice to me next Tuesday through
    Thursday" or book a room in another town either.
    
      Annie

    Following on an earlier note....in Hawaii, at some Polynesian village
    there was a "menses" hut in the village where the woman
    would go during this time and stay out of everyone elses way. I though
    this was an excellent solution!
    
    On a more serious note, I have trouble remembering when the hell week
    (week and a half, two weeks) are going to start - we get into some
    argument or situation and towards the end she will say "don't you
    know?" NO, I don't know!
    
    She often will let her prescription for some pills that provide some
    relief lapse, or fail to get over-the-counter stuff. I hate it.
    
    I've also noticed that it never fails, if we plan on some weekend
    event, or it's our anniversary or a big night out - it's during that
    time.
    
    If I walk on egg-shells - she gets mad at me for doing that. I can't
    win.
    
    JR

>    If I walk on egg-shells - she gets mad at me for doing that. I can't
>    win.

 You're not supposed to win. You supposed to feel lucky that you survived.

 The Doctah

    
    
    	re .14 - yes, patronizing is a good word. What I think
    	is worse is when the woman is not even *close* to having
    	PMS and `are you getting your period' is thrown at her
    	as a put down during a disagreement. As if the man is 
    	saying `I'M not wrong and you're being irrational, it 
    	must be because you're a woman and you can't control your	
    	emotions as well as I can'. 
    
    	My husband is very supportive, but I don't expect him to
    	ever be able to understand the complexity of the hormonal
    	and emotional changes in a woman's body, how could he? I
    	do what I can about it and he does what he can, that's the
    	best we can do.
    
    	Sherry
    

    One of the BIG reasons why my ex is, is because she developed premature
    menopause at age 30, and was unable to cope with the fact that her
    basic "life's dream" could not be fulfilled (she had zero interest in a
    career, she 'defined' herself as being a mother)...
    
    So, yes, at times living with someone going through menopause is like
    living with PPMS (permanent...).  Although, my ex had enough other
    problems that it may not have been all chemical.
    
    I, too, wonder why women somehow find it offensive to discuss the
    onset of menses...  I mean, they usually find a way to let you know.
    ;-)  Personally, I'd like to know.
    
    Dave

    Doctah,
    
    	How about selling a T shirt on that! "I survived another month"!
    And a picure of a woman breathing fire standing above a city. And the
    city has its town folks leaving in mass's like one of those old
    Japaniese monster movies!:) On a shirt that she is wearing it says,"PMS
    is the Pits"....:)

    RE: .15
    
    Yes, in simpler cultures, women go to a special place while
    they are menstruating.  But I don't think it is to "go away"
    or to "stay out of everyone's way."  Rather, it's to be 
    together with the other women while they are in this special
    state.
    
    The men may regard it as going away (from them) and staying
    out of (their) way, but the women regard it as getting 
    together with the other women.
    
    'Least that's how I understood it.
    
    Wil

    "Here I am being a woman again"?  May I be brutally frank?  I wish my
    body had designed a much simpler, less painful, less messy, neater way
    to remind me monthly, year in and year out of being a woman.  Do you
    men know what a pain in the a** it is to go through this every month?
    
    Since I was twelve years old I've had to remember to plan around "that
    time of the month" with my activities.  How would you like to try
    planning a camping trip and remembering you really shouldnt plan it for
    the second week in July because it might be "inconvenient" to be in the
    middle of the wilderness trying to cope with changing a pad every two
    hours?
    
    Think about how free you (men) are to come and go freely.  How easy it
    is for you all to do basically whatever you want, whenever you want. 
    Perhaps the mood swings are based partially on the realization that,
    once again, that "time of the month" is upon me.  Am I prepared?   Yes,
    it is an affirmation of femaleness.  And that is fine.  But for any of
    you who have been close enough to a woman to really get an
    understanding of what we go through every month you have to understand
    that it gets real old after awhile.  
    
    But then, there's menopause.
    

    
    I guess I'm lucky that I don't need to keep a calendar - I run
    with the moon, so I just look up there and see where I am :-)
    
    I used to get very irritable for three or four days before periods,
    and also *extremely* tired (two-three hours extra sleep a night).
    I still get tired - my irritability only started to disappear as I read 
    about ways that women through the ages have valued their menstruation as
    a special time, and through that I learned to value it in myself.
    That it was "OK" to feel different, to be different, and that
    denying it and trying to pretend to myself that I was the same
    person all through the month was only suppressing something that
    I could celebrate....
    
    I feel different around periods- dreamy, out of it, very sensitive to 
    nuances of language and people interacting. My distance estimation
    becomes different (special care taken when driving - there's a
    medical reason for this but I only found that once I'd observed it
    in myself for a few years). I have vivid dreams, and if I get
    any "psychic" stuff or insights it happens in this time.
    
    I also feel extremely strong and powerful in a special way.
    Re: arguments.....I suspect that I used to argue with my other
    half at this time because I felt strong enough to mention all
    the things that I didn't mention the rest of the month! 
    I feel empowered, and I feel that I have the right to be heard...
    
    Now, I tend to take time alone around periods - not for fear of
    annoying men but because *they* disturb *me*. I want to enjoy
    my special energy while I have it - I use visualisation and
    imagery, write poetry (which I don't do at any other time),
    and sometimes read "women's stuff" to support my feelings...
    I try to arrange work so that I can take advantage of my skills
    at this time - I do creative reports and idea-generating stuff
    now, and leave cold figures and logic for a day or two.
    I don't feel that this impact my work efficiency in the least,
    and I don't need to take time off work for periods (for which
    I count myself lucky - my cramps have got less since I started
    accepting menstruation).
    
    'gail
    
    
      

I guess I've been lucky - none of the women I've been close to have
exhibited any obvious signs of "wild hormonal mood swings" at various
times of the month.  It certainly isn't universal.  Or maybe I haven't
treated it as a defect.

I do find some of the attitudes being expressed by some men here rather
demeaning of women.  The phrase "it must be her period" is often used by
men to discount a woman's forthright expression of emotion if it rubs
the man the wrong way.  It's a convenient excuse to ignore anything a woman
says or does, since she's "obviously not being herself" (translation: 
meek, mild and submissive to the man.)

On the other hand, some women seem to have latched on to PMS as an excuse
for any sort of antisocial behavior, up to an including murder.  (There
was a recent case in the news where a woman beat a DWI charge because she
claimed that her erratic behavior when stopped was due to PMS.)  Men don't
have such a convenient "out".

Women here are in a double-bind, partly of their own doing.  The effects
of what their body does to them are real, but by using PMS as a defense of
their behavior, they're undermining their position all the time.  It's not
as if a woman has a little signal light on her head that says "bad day".

One thing I had to learn was that when my partner expressed anger and
frustration to me, it wasn't necessarily directed at me - I just happened to
be convenient.  I had to learn not to take it all personally, and provide
support and understanding when needed.  This is a good thing for men to
learn, and it doesn't necessarily tie to PMS.

As for women, they should not be so quick to use the "PMS defense", and
take more responsibility for their own actions.  Otherwise we will develop
a dangerous double-standard, where men are expected to assert control over
their own hormonal influences, but women are expected NOT to.

					Steve

    RE: .24

    	Ditto. Well said Steve, you echoed my sentiments exactly.

    	I guess I have been lucky too. I have not experienced wild
    	mood swings either. Increased irritability yes, but each
    	time there was a reaction was when I was doing something that
    	was annoying to begin with. I've never mapped my irritability 
    	to a calendar yet myself, but I notice monthly patterns in my
    	low annoyance threshold and irritability as well (though perhaps
    	not to the same degree, and the fact that it centers around  
    	monthly activities may have something to do with it too). 

    	Maybe I've been lucky, but it was never more than a standard
    	today-I-am-a-little-more-irritable-than-usual day where we 
    	needed to give each other space (at least that's how it appeared
    	on my end).

    	-Erik
                                                                   

    
 > The phrase "it must be her period" is often used by
>men to discount a woman's forthright expression of emotion if it rubs
>the man the wrong way.  It's a convenient excuse to ignore anything a woman
>says or does, since she's "obviously not being herself" (translation: 
>meek, mild and submissive to the man.)
 
    I agree with you Steve - and I also suspect that's why so many
    women are touchy about men saying "You've got PMS, haven't you?"
    and/or why they snarl if men mention it.
    That comment can feel very dismissive of the *power* of the feeling
    rather than just the way it's being *expressed*.
    Expressing feeling powerful is not easy for many women - they
    may not even identify that feeling as "powerfulness" (running
    purely on my own experience here....)
                      
    >As for women, they should not be so quick to use the "PMS defense", and
    >take more responsibility for their own actions
    
    I take your point that PMS has been used as a defense for some actions
    that, IMO, are not justified by that explanation.
    However, I don't think most women are "quick to use the PMS defense"
    because PMS has been used as such a put-down and a sign of women's
    "weakness" and "unfitness" for various things (from holding down
    a job upwards) that it's the LAST thing they'd use as a defense.
    Many women won't even admit to their partner that PMS is
    evident (as some men in this string have pointed out) - some won't
    even admit it to themselves.....
    
    Btw, I remember from my "bad old days" that I used to completely flip
    personality around periods BUT, to me, I FELT QUITE "NORMAL".
    When I was "inside" that feeling, it felt totally normal and nothing
    to apologise for. I felt angry at being made to feel I should
    apologise for it. It was only on coming out of the other side that
    I realised that I'd been "different".
    Every month it happened, and every month I didn't spot it as it
    happened because it felt fine from where I was.....
    Weird and wonderful.
    
    'gail

>>As for women, they should not be so quick to use the "PMS defense", and
>>take more responsibility for their own actions
    
>I take your point that PMS has been used as a defense for some actions
>that, IMO, are not justified by that explanation.
>However, I don't think most women are "quick to use the PMS defense"
 
Neither do I, nor did I say or mean to imply "most" did.  I did use the word
"some" in an earlier paragraph.  The line you quoted was not intended to
imply that a majority of women do that thing, but instead that those who do
ought to think twice about it.

				Steve

    Speaking from a woman's point of view........PMS which generally has
    been defined as "Pre-Menstrual Syndrome.....has another yet clearer
    definition....."Putting up with men's s__t", and that will usually put
    any woman into PMS zone!!
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I have my 'bad' days, but they're not related to menses. They're
    usually Redbook and closing related -- different cycle altogether ...
    
    I'll discuss it with anyone who has a sincere interest. I'm just not in
    the business of issuing 'PMS warnings'. I know my cycle and have no
    need to 'keep a calendar' so why should I keep one for someone else's
    benefit?
    
    Good grief! I don't want special treatment for menstruating.  I think
    it's pretty special, but don't ask others to be thrilled with me or for
    me.
    
    Frankly, my husband would probably be just as happy if I didn't do this
    every month; but he acknowledges that I don't plan these events.  He
    once said he could tell by my hands where I am in the cycle -- and
    since my hands are usually with me, I don't think he's ever felt the
    need to keep track for his own sake either.  He also acknowledges that
    there are times when future events are best scheduled not to conflict
    with these dates I have no choice but keeping.
    
      Annie

    
>    I'd be interested in knowing if there are any observations of
>    men having cyclical behavior even when they are isolated from
>    women (say men in a prison population, or in a monastery). 

You should see the gay bars during the full moon.  Oy!  ;-)


							--Gerry

>    I'd be interested in knowing if there are any observations of
>    men having cyclical behavior even when they are isolated from
>    women (say men in a prison population, or in a monastery). 

 Well, I do see lots of men fishing on the high tide. :-) :-)

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, which
     Taken at the flood, leads on to fortune." (in fish?)
    
    As for the full moon's effect:
    
       I didn't know that "lunar" fact about gay bars, Gerry.
       I presume that means the bar's occupants are hornier
       than usual?  And is that due to an increase in 
       testosterone?  So do these men have some kind of
       cycle that is synched with the moon's phases?   
    
    Teachers vouch to the craziness of kids on the day
    of a full moon.   I co-taught some middle-school kids a
    couple of years ago in an evening program, and my
    partner and I "lost it" one night with kids who were
    bouncing off the walls.  A couple of days later someone
    mentioned it was a full moon that night.  
    
    I thought all this "moon-craziness" was entirely in 
    our heads.  Maybe it is induced because of changes in 
    body-chemistry, huh?
    
    Wil

    As we are something like 98% water, and noticing the effect of the moon
    on the tides, its pretty ridiculous to think that such huge planetary
    objects DON'T have a very large effect on our bodies...  We still
    don't know very much about our bodies, you know, despite all of the
    recent medical advances...
    
    Dave

Re: .34

Water has nothing to do with it.  The only reason we see tides is because
the water can move.  The moon's pull affects rock too.  One factor which
makes one wonder about the moon's influence on women is that, although the
menstrual cycle is approximately the same length as the lunar month, there
seems to be no synchronization with particular phases.  Also, anecdotal
evidence of behavior changes tied to a full moon tends to vanish when
the statistics are examined.

				Steve

>Re: .34
>
>Water has nothing to do with it.  The only reason we see tides is because
>the water can move.  The moon's pull affects rock too.  One factor which
    
    So, couldn't the water move in our bodies, too (having some effect we
    don't yet understand)?   I certainly don't claim to be a scientist, but
    I don't find it coincidental that our bodies, and the universe, are
    made up primarily of water...
    
>makes one wonder about the moon's influence on women is that, although the
>menstrual cycle is approximately the same length as the lunar month, there
>seems to be no synchronization with particular phases.  Also, anecdotal
>evidence of behavior changes tied to a full moon tends to vanish when
>the statistics are examined.
    
    Wait a sec, here...  just because there may not be synchronization with
    particular phases, doesn't mean there is no effect!  Perhaps it simply
    affects different people differently, causing an imbalance in some when
    the moon is full, and in an imbalance in others with a different
    chemical makeup when it is waning, etc...  
    
    Besides, aren't the moon's phases simply related to its relative
    orbital position around the earth/angle of incidence to the sun?  (Its
    been a while ;-).  And isn't the _gravitational_ pull the same, regardless
    of the moon's phase?  If so, I don't see how negating the effect of the
    moon's phases on behavior can lead you to negate ALL effects...
    
    Dave 

    Dave, it has got nothing to do with water.  In fact, if the ocean is
    filled with oil or petro or any exotic fluid you can think of, there
    will still be tide.  It is a simple matter of fluid mechanics and gravity.
    Whatever the moon's effect on women, it ain't due to its gravity and
    its influence on fluid flow.  Otherwise, it will have similar effect on
    men too since, uh, men are 95% water too.  If I am to venture a guess,
    it is probably psychological just as the syncronization within the group 
    is probably psychological.
    
    By the way, there is very little water in the universe relatively speaking.
    Most of the stuff is Hydrogen.  Of course, it's changing all the time due
    mostly to nuclear reactions.

    Eugene

    
    I wonder if women, *sometime* replying hostile in a conference,
    especially like MENNOTES, could be the result of PMS at the time of 
    their writing.?.
    
    I suppose it is possible.
    

    
    How would you explain men, *98%* replying hostile in a
    conference, especially like WOMANNOTES then?
    
    'gail
    

    'gail,   Surely you mean there are certain men who are hostile in -wn-
    98% of the time.  Not that all men are.  I don't think a tour through
    -wm- would support the latter.  Your comment was ambiguous.
    					- Vick

    
>    How would you explain men, *98%* replying hostile in a
>    conference, especially like WOMANNOTES then?
    
Hey Gail, can we track an increase in these replies to a certain time 
of the month???    ;-)

							--Gerry    

  re: .33 and .35

  It's interesting that statistical studies probably will always 
  tend to disprove so-called "new age superstitions", such as
  "full-moon-craziness".   And yet, there is no doubt widespread
  belief, even among supposedly responsible people (e.g., police,
  firemen,etc.) that when the full moon is out, they better watch
  out.

  I'm not ready to pooh-pooh such lunar effects, or even other things 
  such as the collective unconscious idea, or even various forms of 
  "magic".   Yet I'm not ready either to accept so-called scientific
  explanations for these phenomena, such as the pull of the moon's 
  gravity on bodily fluids causing the change in body chemistry. 

  We're trained in this modern age to go look for scientific explanations
  for everything, and I might say that even if we find them, well, so
  what?  The world is more mysterious than we ever dreamed and yet at
  the same time explicable in large measure.  I think the difficult
  thing for us to do is to accept BOTH as true!

  Holding two opposite things in the mind at the same time is mighty
  difficult in this day and age.  Can we dig "the most ingenious paradox"
  the way Gilbert and Sullivan were able?  Maybe it's only the poets
  who can do this.   Isn't it called somewhere "cognitive dissonance"?
  
  Mardy

    
    Re .40
    
    You're right Vick - that was an ambiguous comment.
    I'm afraid I was rather more preoccupied with my somewhat
    juvenile mimicry of the grammar of the previous note than with
    getting my point across.
    Apologies all round - I was having a crabby day yesterday :-) ;-) ;-)
    
    And yes - it does seem to be only a few individuals who are 
    hostile 98% of the time in that conference. But they seem to 
    do it all year round, so if women get PMS a minimum of 12 weeks
    a year, and these guys have it 52 weeks a year...hmmm...;-)
    
    Jerry - don't know if it tracks monthly.
    Maybe these guys get strung out about their wives on a monthly basis
    and come and yell in there? ;-) 
    More likely they have cycles of their own, surely?
    
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that men have hormonal cycles of some
    kind too - including some interesting three-monthly ones - but I
    know that's not much help without more detail. I'll try and dig some
    up.
    
    Btw, does anyone here know Tom Petty's song "Luna"?
    It's the most sensual expression of a man relating to the moon
    that I've come across (even if he is imagining the moon as a woman -
    maybe a goddess?)
    
    'gail
    

    I imagine that there are some men who are just chronically
    misogynistic.
    					- Vick

A reminder from your friendly local co-moderator - comments about other notes
conferences should be directed to the moderators of those conferences, or
discussed privately.  It's not appropriate to put other notes conferences
"on trial" here.  (I've had to return one note already which I felt did
that.)

					Steve

    Since it was brought up earlier and no one seemed to question this, I
    will.
    
    It was suggested that you keep a calendar so as to be; more sensitive,
    out of the way etc at that time. Well the question begs; what do you do
    at work. Work is a 5 (or more) day a week profession. Sick days are
    allowed, etc. But how do you handle mood swings if you are in a
    managerial position or in a position dealing with vendors or customers?
    
    
    Comments?
    Steve

    
 >  But how do you handle mood swings if you are in a
 >  managerial position or in a position dealing with vendors or customers?
    
    Steve,
    
    I am customer-facing - I'm in sales.
    
    I don't see my "mood swings" as "good" and "bad" - I see them as
    having different skills stronger at different times.
    
    So I try to schedule my work to take advantage of this - creative
    work on my own (ideas for customers, generating account plans)
    and creative stuff with others (brain-storming, heavy listening
    sessions) I do during PMS-time.
    
    I'm best at work with numbers, logical stuff, concise
    management meetings and driving long distances in the week after 
    my period. Other weeks seem pretty neutral.
     
    Of course, if a meeting is called I don't put it off just because
    it's at a time I'm not at my best for it. I would put in some
    extra preparation and, maybe, make more concise notes than
    usual about what I want to achieve to keep myself on track.
    
    I truly don't see this PMS stuff as any kind of handicap. It
    is part of my life, and I can choose whether to welcome it and
    work with it, or work against it and dislike it. I don't see
    how disliking an inherent part of myself can be constructive.
    
    'gail
    

.47>    I truly don't see this PMS stuff as any kind of handicap. It
.47>    is part of my life, and I can choose whether to welcome it and
.47>    work with it, or work against it and dislike it. I don't see
.47>    how disliking an inherent part of myself can be constructive.
    
'gail,

You have very eloquently defined the whole crux of the matter!  

In my opinion, when men relate to women they must also take on the same 
attitude that you have stated.  The very title of this note "living with mood
swings" in a men's conference and some of the replies have only shown that men
(and even some women) have a long way to go in accepting some of the inherent
differences between the sexes.  I got the feeling from some of the men who were
charting their mates cycles that the only reason they were doing this was so
they would know when the time was conducive to having good sex (just like 
hunting season when they get out the topographical maps...).  For those women
who have a rough time during their periods, their mates should be prepared to
offer more encouragement instead of "time-out".  The women of this conference
can best help the cause by defining how they would like to be treated during
their special time (special time then evolves into all the time) and maybe this
PMS thing may go away.

Regards, Don

>I got the feeling from some of the men who were
>charting their mates cycles that the only reason they were doing this was so
>they would know when the time was conducive to having good sex (just like 
>hunting season when they get out the topographical maps...). 

 I got the feeling that the reason that the men were charting their mates cycles
was to differentiate between when their mates had a biological reason for
questionable behavior and when they didn't. 

 The Doctah

    
    
I do wish there were more women writing in this string - we all have
    such different views on this subject......
    
    > I got the feeling from some of the men who were
>charting their mates cycles that the only reason they were doing this was so
>they would know when the time was conducive to having good sex....
    
    Ah. Define "good sex"....
    Being frank:-
    I find that my sexual "style" and needs vary with the cycle pretty
    predicatably.
    Do men notice this too?
    Would you/do you "cycle-watch" so you can work out when you'll encounter
    the "style" *you* prefer?
    (Apart from cycle-watching because you're both trying to start a
    family, which is different, IMO)
    
    And how to you people feel about having intercourse during periods?
    
    > The women of this conference can best help the cause 
    
    Hold on - *what* cause?
    
    That sounds to me like you're saying that women have a "cause", which
    is to teach men/educate them so that they feel more comfortable
    about our mood changes etc etc., and that we could achieve that
    cause by communicating better. That puts the onus on women to
    reach out and educate rather than on men to work on their
    own discomfort.
    If you have working at understanding as *your* cause then I
    admire that. 
    
    I don't feel that we're under an obligation to try (and often fail -
    some people just don't wanna learn) to educate men out of their discomfort.
    The only cause I have around this is that women should be shown
    that they have a choice about how to regard their own cycles -
    they can choose positive view, if they wish, rather than succumbing
    to a lot of negative images around out there.
    
    We may then choose to share that with a partner who is supportive.
    But the most important thing is getting comfortable with ourselves.
    
    >by defining how 
    >they would like to be treated during their special time (special time 
    >then evolves into all the time) 
    
    I reckon period-time will always be different and special - though
    having your partner understand how you would like to be treated
    at different times would be nice....
    
    >and maybe this PMS thing may go away.
    
    I'd hate to have this special phase (for me) go away altogether.
    I would like to think that one day the negative images of it, 
    the disrespect for it and the lack of understanding about it
    might one day go away. Hopefully this may happen through women
    learning to value their own experience, and men choosing to
    learn about how they see it.
    
    'gail                       
                                             

    My wife has PMT, sometimes worse than others, sometimes hardly at all.
    I too 'chart' my wife's (occasionally irregular) periods, but it has
    nothing to do with 'good sex' whatever that may be. It's to enable me
    to be more patient when I realise what's causing her irrational,
    difficult, and sometimes down-right provocative behaviour. It's taken
    me 11 years to reach this stage, and I've only recently come to terms
    with sometimes violent mood-swings and a breath-taking increase in
    irrational behaviour.
    
    One of the problems I think, is that she controls herself in the
    company of others, and when at home 'lets go' a bit. All very
    understandabl of course, but recepients of this are myself (mostly) and
    the children. She says she knows what she's doing, but can't stop
    herself. I dunno, I'll never understand women, but I've learnt to live
    and deal with this particular facet of my wife's feminity. In all
    honesty, from the perspective of a Brit, a lot of the stuff in
    preceeding notes is airy-fairy twaddle, so beloved by Americans, with
    common-sense from Abigail and a few others, some (refreshingly)
    Americans.
    
    Males and females *are* different, always have been, and always will
    be, so why does everyone try so hard to look for 'reasons' all the
    time? It is what it is, that's a given; and if we could all learn to
    accept and deal with that, we'd all be happier for it.
    
    Laurie.

 re: Abigail

>That puts the onus on women to
>    reach out and educate rather than on men to work on their
>    own discomfort.

 It sounds to me like you are saying to men, "this is my behavior and like
it or not you have to deal with it no matter how bad it is for you (and 
presumably the children as well.) It's YOUR problem."

 When heavy drinking is a part of a man's life, is it then his family's problem?
Heavy drinking and its attendant behavioral anomalies differ very little from
PMS in that they are both afflictions over which those who suffer from them
have varying but in most cases little control. Are you saying that when a woman
becomes a verbally and emotionally abusive that men (and children) just learn
to live with it? That's what it sounds like.

>    I don't feel that we're under an obligation to try (and often fail -
>    some people just don't wanna learn) to educate men out of their discomfort.

 Then don't. But don't be surprised when your man's patience is finally exceeded
and he decides to find greener pastures with someone who is a little more
concerned with the "discomfort" she causes others.

 re: Laurie

>It is what it is, that's a given; and if we could all learn to
>    accept and deal with that, we'd all be happier for it.

 So she's gotten you to buy the idea that you can like it or lump it?

 The Doctah

    
            <<< Note 601.52 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Animal Magnetism" >>>
    
> It sounds to me like you are saying to men, "this is my behavior and like
>it or not you have to deal with it no matter how bad it is for you (and 
>presumably the children as well.) It's YOUR problem."
    > When heavy drinking is a part of a man's life, is it then his family's problem?
    
    See your point, Doctah - I'll try and express mine better.
    
    The only route I know of to "reduced PMS" is through self-acceptance,
    learning from other women's experiences, and coming to terms
    subjectively with what it means to me. That's what worked for me -
    I'm sure other women have other views....
    I chose to change because my behaviour was making me miserable.
    The knock-on effect was that it was making my SO miserable.
    
    So I guess that, to use your analogy, it's like saying that an
    alcoholic's first priority is to begin to sort themselves out,
    and then to begin to work with their family to restore the
    damage (as far as possible). Hopefully the alcoholic's family
    won't walk out when they're just starting recovery.
    
  >  Heavy drinking and its attendant behavioral anomalies differ very little from
>PMS in that they are both afflictions over which those who suffer from them
>have varying but in most cases little control. 
    
    Well, yes, but an alcoholic can choose the option (and I hear it's
    tough) of staying off alcohol, whereas a woman has no option on
    avoiding her hormones every month.
    But I see your point about the disruption caused by both behaviours.
    
> Then don't. But don't be surprised when your man's patience is finally exceeded
>and he decides to find greener pastures with someone who is a little more
>concerned with the "discomfort" she causes others.

    Well, gee, I guess that being left (eek!) by a man because his patience
    couldn't cope with something that I coped with every month
    (even if I'd told him that I was working on it) would be about the
    *worst* thing that could *possibly* happen to me.....
                                                                                  

    
    When I get PMS, I can generally notice when I'm getting more upset more
    frequently and warn people around me.  Even then it's not so much I get
    angry or vindictive, I just get more easily upset because SMALL
    problems loom larger.  And it's not like it's something you can shake
    off.  It's VERY real, and although your rational mind says "this isn't
    the way you usually are", you just can't stop it in its tracks.  Yes,
    I'm embarassed about saying "it's not me, it's my PMS", but I'd rather
    explain what's going on than let them think I'm like that all the time! 
    PMS *feels* like a weakness, particularly hearing the way most men look
    at it.  It's not curable though, and it's not a fake.  It's no ruse. 
    It's real.
    
    For 2 descriptions of what it's like to look at the world through PMS
    see DNEAST::POETRY, 1830.0 and 1465.0.
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody and 'gail,  suppose you are in a relationship with a man
    who is not afraid of the PMS-like changes that you have.
    Suppose its a new relationship and you've been seeing this
    guy for a few months, so that you and he have been through
    some of these "less-rational" times together.
    
    SUppose the guy says (at a non-PMS time, when you are both
    pretty relaxed and non-stressed about other stuff),
    
      "I'd like to tell you how I feel when I see these changes
       in your behavior, and I'd like to know what's happening 
       for you, and I'd like us to be able to work out something
       together to minimize the stress.  What do you need from me?
       What would you like me to do?  I care about you, I care
       about me, and I care about our relationship.  Can we do
       something about this?"
    
    Are you willing to write a scenario?  It might help some
    man reading this file to see what would sound good coming
    from the man, and what would tick you off.
    
    I have heard men say (here and outside of this file) that 
    they cannot mention it to their partners without having 
    teeth marks in their forearms.  (Maybe they are "mentioning it"
    at the worst possible time, of course.)
    
    How can the man show you he cares, and how would the conversation
    go?
    
    Wil                

re: .55

>      "I'd like to tell you how I feel when I see these changes
>       in your behavior, and I'd like to know what's happening 
>       for you, and I'd like us to be able to work out something
>       together to minimize the stress.  What do you need from me?
>       What would you like me to do?  I care about you, I care
>       about me, and I care about our relationship.  Can we do
>       something about this?"
 
    Okay.  Here goes.  
    
    "I apologize in advance for the fact that I have PMS.  I feel badly
    that I can do nothing about it, and I cringe inwardly when I see it
    affecting the way we interact.  I apologize if I lash out as soon as I
    understand what I have done, and I hope you realize that it is me and
    it is not me that is doing that.  I have the emotions of anger or hurt,
    but they are amplified, and I react more quickly, and with less
    "editing", or censoring, with the PMS filter in place in my life.  
    
    "I think what I need most from you, the single thing you can do to make
    my life easiest, is when I cry, you hold me, and soothe me, and tell me
    everything will be all right.  In fact, if I'm snappish, you can fairly
    well disarm me by telling me "it's okay" or that you care about me and
    understand.  I know these things don't SOUND like they'll do much, but
    trust me, they will help.  I know you feel helpless and wish to fix me,
    wish to make my life better, wish to make this week of difference go
    away.  But since this is not possible, the best thing you can do is
    treat me as myself (rather than alien), hold me (rather than walking
    away in frustration or anger), and accept me as I am as I try to deal
    with this issue myself.  Support me, rather than deserting me.  Help me
    know that I am still okay, even when I have PMS, even when I cry, even
    when I show anger or hurt inappropriately by yelling."
    
    
    that's what I've tried to say to one or two of them in the past, with
    mixed response from them.  One found that my need for holding and
    soothing went beyond his capacity to give, another just skipped out of
    reach whenever he saw it coming - he didn't want to be supportive or
    couldn't find it in himself to accept that side of me.
    
    -Jody
    

    re: .56
    
    I hear you. I like what you said.  Give me some time
    to reply.              Wil
    

OK, Jody, here goes:

"I like this writing notes to each other, hon.  It gives me
time to find my feelings.  You are so lightening fast with
knowing your feelings that it always dazzles me.  The only
feelings that I know fast are the survival ones.  These kind
of feelings take me longer to access.  I need to remember to
ask for time-outs more often when we're into this stuff.
Maybe we can write notes to each other more often as a way
to slow the feelings down to a pace that I can keep up with.

"Whew!  I realized last night that I could write a reply 
to almost every word you wrote.   Then I realized that if we
had been saying this face to face that I would have jumped
at the "solution" types of things that you proposed, and might
have missed responding to the feelings.  I'm excited about 
your suggestions and I want to get back to them.  But right 
now, I want to tell you how I feel about what you wrote.

"I'm feeling bad that you are apologizing for being you --
for having PMS.  I welcome apologies for when you bite my
head off, but you never fail to apologize for that.  And I
think I always accept those apologies, and you always accept
my apologies for when I screw up.  I think we do fine at
apologizing for our screw ups and accepting each other's
apologies.  So, it's not that kind of apology that makes me
wince.  It's the feeling that you are apologizing for having
PMS, which I associate with being a woman.

"It feels to me that you are apologizing for being a woman!
Do I demand something from you that makes you want to
apologize for being a woman?  When you are in PMS space,
I do sometimes feel helpless, but I never want to "fix" you.
You don't appear to me to be broke, so you don't need fixin'.
I don't like the troubles that we seem to have every month, but I
don't think the problem is to "fix" you.  I want you as you
are with all the ups and downs.  I love women and you are a
woman.  I don't want some toothy, busty bimbo from the TV
screen, who is always smiling and ready-to-go.   I want the
real flesh and blood you, including the you who is "different"
for a few days out of every month.   I'm interested in finding
out how to be "with you" during those days too, and this is
a great start.  I'm jumping up and down to respond to all 
that you said in your note, but maybe I'd better shut up for
a bit and let you talk.

"You said to say, "It's OK," and I'm saying it.  It's okay 
for you to be my real flesh and blood woman, all month,
every day in every way.  (I hope you feel the same about me!
    I mean, I hope it's "okay" for me to be your real flesh
    and blood man every day, in every way.  ??)



Jody, I'm learning a lot by writing this stuff, so I hope
you won't mind continuing with this imaginary exchange.  - Wil

    
    Wow, this is tough.  I never got as far as this kind of indepth
    searching in myself, because none of my SO's wanted to listen that 
    much.  I guess below I'm hypothesizing a lot because if I try to look
    at it directly when I have it, it sidles away, and when I try to look
    at it objectively, it defies a lot of description.  But it has hooks
    deeper inside me than I know.
    
    Here goes.
    
    "My apology, and my helplessness around PMS, don't stem from the
    knowledge that I can't change it, or even that I have it, it comes from
    the fear it creates in me.  I guess it creates the irrational fear that
    it is something in me you do not want to deal with.  But I assume that
    if you are invested in our relationship, you will deal with the
    things I cannot change, knowing full well that if I could change it I
    would.  My primary fear, the fear that makes me respond with the PMS
    filter on then immediately apologize is a combination of two things. 
    Fear tied with shame.  Shame at being unable to treat you as
    well as I would like to all the time.  Shame at mistreating you
    occasionally despite my best efforts.  This shame ties in with my "why
    should I be ashamed if this is a natural event I am handling as well as
    I can" and I get REALLY tongue-tied, and unsure what to do or say next. 
    This shame ties in with my woman-bred fear of abandonment and desire to
    people please (I was taught this at a very early age, as were many
    women).  If you do not love me you will leave.  If I displease you
    enough you will not love me and you will leave.  Of course, from the
    rational side of my brain, this seems ludicrous.  But I get a visual
    reminder of that old commercial "This is your brain" "This is your
    brain on drugs", only in this case it's a clock shop and it says "this
    is your brain", and then Salvador Dali's picture "The persistence of
    memory" comes on the screen and says "this is your brain on PMS - any
    questions?".....  
    
    "I am ashamed of when I cry and when I snap, and yet I cannot help it. 
    Thank you for accepting them because the alternative, frankly, scares
    me.  When I snap, when I get into that "fuck you" attitude where I yell
    or speak harshly, part of me wishes I would not do it even as I watch
    myself do it.  And part of me feels slightly empowered by the ability
    to speak unedited what is at that moment forefront in my mind - as so
    often I *don't* permit myself to get angry, or own my emotions in their
    full force.  I stifle them.  To please people.  To keep peace.  It's an
    interesting dichotomy.  Part of me perhaps feels like when I have PMS
    it may be a good test to see if you really love me, although that is by
    NO means intentional, it's more way under my subconscious.  I am
    sometimes motivated by insecurity.  Sometimes I feel you are too close
    and wish to scare you away, and hurting or angering you is sometimes a
    subconscious tool to get space, or to get balance, when I feel I am
    becoming part of you, or even being subsumed by you and becoming an
    appendage.
    
    "Having PMS I am at my most grounded.  Sometimes I have a million watts
    of energy and nothing to do with them.  Somtimes the smallest tasks
    seem huge.  Everything becomes disproportionate.  The only thing I know
    is the soaring feeling of joy as I can actually FEEL the PMS lift. 
    Perhaps on those days when I remember joy, we can do something
    particularly joyous and celebrate, recentering ourselves for the next
    few weeks.
    
    "There will be months where you will not notice I have PMS, and months
    when it is all too clear.  As I grow used to your acceptance I will
    need less reassurance.  As we grow and develop a pattern of
    communication, perhaps including daily notes or even keywords I can use
    when I'm feeling overwhelmed or upset that will tell YOU I'm not quite
    myself, it will become a seamless maneuvering of the prow of our
    togetherness through the straits of PMS.  Thanks for sticking with it,
    and letting me know I'm worth more to you than the sum of my parts, and
    my actions.
    
    

    Do the ovaries alternate, like I suspect? My wife has problems, seems
    like every other month with one side giving her a bad time. As I
    recall, a couple of years ago se saw her GYN about it and I thought
    they said she had some minor &^%*^&% (medical term) and just to live
    with it.
    
    Steve

    they do, theoretically.  If a "bad time" is pain, and she was told to
    "just live with it", maybe she should get a second opinion?
    
    Some women suffer from something called Mettleshmertz (or something
    German like that, translates to "middle pain"), where in the middle of
    their cycle when they ovulate, they get a pain from that ovary AS they
    are ovulating.  I haven't had that happen, though I've spoken to women
    who have.  It's like a sudden cramp and then it's gone, they say.
    
    -Jody
    

"I sat under a tree and read your note while eating my lunch.
Once again, I can see that having time to digest it is
really beneficial.  I wonder if I could take the time if we
were face to face?

>    "My apology, and my helplessness around PMS, don't stem from the
>    knowledge that I can't change it, or even that I have it, it comes from
>    the fear it creates in me.  I guess it creates the irrational fear that
>    it is something in me you do not want to deal with.  But I assume that
>    if you are invested in our relationship, you will deal with the
>    things I cannot change, knowing full well that if I could change it I
>    would.  

"I can endorse that assumption.  I am invested and I want to deal with it.
And I can understand that I may have to say that a "few" more times, too.
(Like, at least once a month.  ;-)   )

>             "My primary fear, the fear that makes me respond with the PMS
>    filter on then immediately apologize is a combination of two things. 
>    Fear tied with shame.  Shame at being unable to treat you as
>    well as I would like to all the time.  Shame at mistreating you
>    occasionally despite my best efforts.  

"I know shame, so I think I can understand this.  It isn't easy for me
to apologize and when I try to find out why, I think it is close to your
feelings.  I think, "Damn, I wish I hadn't done that, I ought to apologize."
Then I think, "Maybe she doesn't care that much.  Maybe an apology will
only make it seem worse than it was.  Maybe she'll think I'm a minor
jerk for doing it but a major jerk for apologizing for something so trivial.
Maybe it will just blow over."  But then, when I do apologize I feel better 
for doing it and then when you acknowledge the apology, I feel great.
So, apologies really work.  It took me a long time to learn that.  And
I suppose as we get to know each other better, we'll know better what
each is expecting, and what disappoints us, etc.

>                                           "This shame ties in with my "why
>    should I be ashamed if this is a natural event I am handling as well as
>    I can" and I get REALLY tongue-tied, and unsure what to do or say next. 

"Yeah, that sounds really confusing, but it makes me feel good that you
are saying that to yourself, because that's what had me worried earlier
when you seemed to be apologizing for PMS (which I mistook as an 
apology for being a woman!)

>    "This shame ties in with my woman-bred fear of abandonment and desire to
>    people please (I was taught this at a very early age, as were many
>    women).  If you do not love me you will leave.  If I displease you
>    enough you will not love me and you will leave.  

"Oh, God, I know that feeling!  That's a really bitter lesson.  After
I was dumped by X (which I call "betrayed"), I had a terrible time
getting over it.  In the process I learned that love (commitment) goes
hand in hand with the possibility of betrayal.  If I want to love and
be loved then I have to take the risk of being betrayed.  There's no
avoiding it.  The deeper the commitment, the greater the risk.

"I don't know any way around it.  (I have to get in my car and drive
home every evening, and there is a risk that an oncoming car will 
swerve into my lane and it will be all over.  So I take that risk
every evening.)  It gets easier as time goes by and I develop a good
track record, as it will with our relationship.

"Actually, I've come to be thankful that I can be committed, because
I've run into lots of men and women who have a tough time doing it,
so I'd rather be able to take this risk than not be able to.

>                                                     "Of course, from the
>    rational side of my brain, this seems ludicrous.  But I get a visual
>    reminder of that old commercial "This is your brain" "This is your
>    brain on drugs", only in this case it's a clock shop and it says "this
>    is your brain", and then Salvador Dali's picture "The persistence of
>    memory" comes on the screen and says "this is your brain on PMS - any
>    questions?".....  

"You're funny.  I'm laughing.
    
>    "I am ashamed of when I cry and when I snap, and yet I cannot help it. 
>    Thank you for accepting them because the alternative, frankly, scares
>    me.  When I snap, when I get into that "fuck you" attitude where I yell
>    or speak harshly, part of me wishes I would not do it even as I watch
>    myself do it.  And part of me feels slightly empowered by the ability
>    to speak unedited what is at that moment forefront in my mind -

"Remind me to tell you of my first car accident (minor).  One part of
me sat in my car, another part of me was out in the street screaming
my head off at the other guy, and a third part of me was saying,
"Who are these two Bills, one so passive and the other so aggressive?"
(I learned later that the guy who hit me was a new employee and it was
his first day on the job!  Poor guy.  I did apologize for my screaming,
but I felt like a real s**t.)

>                                                                    "as so
>    often I *don't* permit myself to get angry, or own my emotions in their
>    full force.  I stifle them.  To please people.  To keep peace.  It's an
>    interesting dichotomy.

"We've done some zany things together.  We'll go on learning new limits
to our emotions, even the ones that don't please us.  You  haven't seen
all of mine yet, either.

>                            "Part of me perhaps feels like when I have PMS
>    it may be a good test to see if you really love me, although that is by
>    NO means intentional, it's more way under my subconscious.  I am
>    sometimes motivated by insecurity.  

"Yeah, fear of betrayal again.  It's okay, it's okay.

>                                        "Sometimes I feel you are too close
>    and wish to scare you away, and hurting or angering you is sometimes a
>    subconscious tool to get space, or to get balance, when I feel I am
>    becoming part of you, or even being subsumed by you and becoming an
>    appendage.

"When I walked out the other night, and came back an hour later, I told
you what I was doing, "Getting some fresh air" and that "I'll be back in
less than an hour."   Getting space, getting time alone, and sometimes
getting time to cool off is important to me, too.  But I'll always tell
you where I am going and when I'll be back.  We both need to have that
pressure valve.  If you do that without telling me what  you are doing,
then I get worried and probably angry.  But I think I can respect the
need if you can tell me what you are doing -- not in detail, just relieve
my worry, so I don't imagine that you are going out to drive your car off
a cliff, you know?

>    "Having PMS I am at my most grounded.  Sometimes I have a million watts
>    of energy and nothing to do with them.  Somtimes the smallest tasks
>    seem huge.  Everything becomes disproportionate.  

"That's the hard part for me (and I see it is for you too).  It means to
me that I can't rely on you for something.  That's OK. Hear it?  That's OK.
What we need to do is figure out how to be together for a few days with
lowered expectations around planned activity, and with more flexibility
to go with the flow.  (Oops! that's a pun.)

>                                                      "The only thing I know
>    is the soaring feeling of joy as I can actually FEEL the PMS lift. 
>    Perhaps on those days when I remember joy, we can do something
>    particularly joyous and celebrate, recentering ourselves for the next
>    few weeks.

"Woof!  I'm always up for celebrating.
    
>    "There will be months where you will not notice I have PMS, and months
>    when it is all too clear.  As I grow used to your acceptance I will
>    need less reassurance.  As we grow and develop a pattern of
>    communication, perhaps including daily notes or even keywords I can use
>    when I'm feeling overwhelmed or upset that will tell YOU I'm not quite
>    myself, 

"Yeah, that's what I want too.

             "it will become a seamless maneuvering of the prow of our
>    togetherness through the straits of PMS.  

"The poet part of you is always "on" isn't she?  I love it!

>                                              "Thanks for sticking with it,
>    and letting me know I'm worth more to you than the sum of my parts, and
>    my actions.
    
"You are indeed worth it.   Can we get on to those suggestions that you made
in the first reply to my questions?    We need to work at figuring out
who we are as individuals, and as a couple and how we communicate when
you are at ground zero with an unspecified amount of energy, etc...

    
    
    Still learning, keep it going, Jody.    - Wil

    -Jody, sometimes it is so bad that it can be confused with
    appendicitis. I was hospitalized twice with Mettleshmertz.
    Bonnie

>  I wonder if I could take the time if we were face to face?

    I'm beginning to wonder if anyone ever *does* take any time anymore!
    
>Then I think, "Maybe she doesn't care that much.  Maybe an apology will
>only make it seem worse than it was.  Maybe she'll think I'm a minor
>jerk for doing it but a major jerk for apologizing for something so trivial.
>Maybe it will just blow over."  But then, when I do apologize I feel better 
    
    Apologizing is VITAL.  In my family blame-taking was the WORST thing
    you could do (short of losing an argument).  Apologizing is something I
    do readily, sometimes too readily.  I am trying to only apologize when
    I'm REALLY sorry.  Otherwise it winds up "it's raining and I just waxed
    my car!"  "Oh, I'm sorry".  which when you look at it makes no sense.
    
>getting over it.  In the process I learned that love (commitment) goes
>hand in hand with the possibility of betrayal.  If I want to love and
>be loved then I have to take the risk of being betrayed.  There's no
>avoiding it.  The deeper the commitment, the greater the risk.
    
    Bingo.  That's the part that makes me wince.  I love with utter and
    complete investment and I sometimes get that breathless edge-of-the
    cliff feeling of "oh shit.  I *know* this isn't going to work.  Is
    it?".  So few people want to work through.  So many people are wiling
    to project their problems or not-wanting-to-deal on others and close
    the doors rather than risk by opening them.  Rejection hurts like a
    sonofabitch, so sometimes it may seem better to just fail the relationship
    than risk it failing with each person giving 200%.  
    
    sidenote - as I read the topic on women asking men to change in this
    file, I was thinking to myself that the first thing that comes to mind
    when somebody either asks me to change, or asks me to act differently
    is "I'm not good enough", and that's a scary feeling I've had
    encounters with all my life.


>"We've done some zany things together.  We'll go on learning new limits
>to our emotions, even the ones that don't please us.  You  haven't seen
>all of mine yet, either.
    
    I have trouble with conflict.  Which is why it pains me to instigate it
    unintentionally sometimes.  Knowing you wish to know me better also
    frightens me because it means you accept me, and I'll  need to accept
    all of you.  But I need to realize accepting all of you doesn't mean
    loving everything you do every minute of the day, or even liking it.


>"When I walked out the other night, and came back an hour later, I told
>you what I was doing, "Getting some fresh air" and that "I'll be back in
>less than an hour."   Getting space, getting time alone, and sometimes
>getting time to cool off is important to me, too.  But I'll always tell
>you where I am going and when I'll be back.  We both need to have that
>pressure valve.  If you do that without telling me what  you are doing,
>then I get worried and probably angry.  But I think I can respect the

    I was brought up to believe the perfect relationship didn't require
    space.  you were together always and it was always wonderful (dream on,
    right?)  So perhaps I can learn new ways of getting space which aren't
    subconscious, or impulsively offensive.  That's, in fact, a lot of what
    hits during PMS - a need for space, or a need to sink into myself and
    my emotions and wherever I am, rather than a need to give all the time
    and reach out.  But duly trained to give it all away and keep nothing
    to myself by the society in which I was raised, I feel guilty for not
    giving, and then angry that I'm supposed to give.  Which I guess is
    where some of the righteous anger that may crop up comes from.
    
>"That's the hard part for me (and I see it is for you too).  It means to
>me that I can't rely on you for something.  That's OK. Hear it?  That's OK.
>What we need to do is figure out how to be together for a few days with
>lowered expectations around planned activity, and with more flexibility
>to go with the flow.  (Oops! that's a pun.)
    
    Ooooh, you struck a nerve.  "I can't rely on you" means "you're
    unreliable" which means "you're not good enough" if I extrapolate by
    gut instinct.  I'm *supposed* to be the rock of gibraltar, always there
    and ready to support and give, always the nurturer.  Hearing it's okay
    for me to be not 100% all the time is a new thing, and it will take a
    while for me to learn to say it to myself.  In addition, this ties in
    with the fact that I have always felt uncomfortable voicing *my* needs
    in a relationship (or even acknowledging I have them).  PMS is when
    they are sometimes strongest, and most immediate, and when I give them
    no voice they come out screaming sometimes.
    
>We need to work at figuring out
>who we are as individuals, and as a couple and 
    
    My extrapolation fails at this point because I know you and don't know
    you at the same time.  In the past, in relationships, most of them have
    been him-centered.  None of them have ever asked the questions you did,
    so I can't extrapolate from my experience.
    
    >how we communicate when
    >you are at ground zero with an unspecified amount of energy, etc...
    
    How we communicate from ground zero with random energy
    patterns...hmmm...
    
    First, can we set up some groundwork here for communication and
    needs-handling.  If I am feeling like I need space yet you want to be
    close, I'd like to contract with you VERY briefly about a later time
    when I may feel better (exact times I cannot gauge, but I can promise
    some time when I am less isolated/disconnected).  If I am feeling weepy
    I would like to be able to come to you for comfort, but if you feel
    that at any point you cannot provide it for any reason I would hope you
    could respond with something supportive.  A simple "I care" or "I love
    you" might help.  A "not right now, but later" would also help.  I
    think the meeting of needs is one of the major problems that PMS throws
    off - the schedules clash - my needs may not be meetable now and your
    needs may not be meetable now, but verifying that they are MEETABLE and
    there is a desire to meet them is vital.  
    
    When it comes to communication, if I am feeling particularly
    uncensored/free/needing-to-vent, I may preface what I say with "I'm
    going to vent" or "I need to vent" and that may tip you off I don't
    waant problem solving or resolution suggestions, nor do I want
    commentary or judgment.  I *just* want to get it out, say it to
    someone.  Wait until I am finished.  If you're uncertain about whether
    I'm done, ask.  
    
    If I fly off the handle, pause a second if you can stand it.  Let me
    look at what I've just done.  If I keep on doing it, say something
    like "I need to be away from you while you are like this for a short
    time.  I need to protect myself."  That will both alert me to what I'm
    doing, help me realize you can take care of yourself, and let me choose
    whether I can find it in myself to apologize or step out of the
    anger/hurt and share with you openly.  Sometimes I will not be able to
    apologize.  Sometimes I will need time to think about what I've said
    and why, and that insight in itself may be vital.  I may choose to
    share it with you later, and I may not.
    
    If I am being irrational, the WORST thing in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE you
    can do is tell me to "get a grip" or "chill out" (nasty associations
    with the words "chill out" from a previous relationship).  It feels
    like you're the knowledgeable man slapping the hysterical woman for her
    own good.  It will make me angry in addition to being irrational, and
    that gets us nowhere.  DON'T try to use logic on me when I am being
    irrational.  Also, even if I seem irrational, do not prove how wrong I
    am with any proof methods (proof by example, proof by logical
    conclusion, etc.).  I don't want to be shown how wrong I am.  I'm not
    operating from my most stable foundation, and somewhere inside I am
    aware of this and am somewhat embarassed.  Embarass me far enough and I
    will flare with protective/defensive anger.  Also, when women get
    irrational, or an argument/debate is in action and it's OBVIOUS to the
    man who illogical the woman is being, he sometimes speaks in a
    patronizing tone.  That, too, will anger me further.  Treat me as a
    competent, intelligent, member of the human race.  Protect yourself if
    I am lashing, distance yourself if necessary, but don't try to talk me
    "down".  During PMS there is no "down" or "out" which you can attain or
    predict with any reliability.  Just care about me, show that, and leave
    if you must.
    
    

    
    

Here are some excerpts of what you said:

    "I love with utter and complete investment"
    "I have trouble with conflict."
    "Knowing you wish to know me better also frightens 
     me because it means you accept me, and I'll need 
     to accept all of you.
    "So perhaps I can learn new ways of getting space"
    "I feel guilty for not giving, and then angry that I'm 
     supposed to give.  
    "Hearing it's okay for me to be not 100% all the time 
     is a new thing, and it will take a while for me to 
     learn to say it to myself.  
    "I have always felt uncomfortable voicing *my* needs
     in a relationship (or even acknowledging I have them).  
    "Most of my relationships have been him-centered.  

Those are all statements of who you are now and how you got where you
are.    They are helpful to me in understanding you, I need to know
that about you.  Thanks for saying it.

    "First, can we set up some groundwork here for communication and
     needs-handling.  If I am feeling like I need space yet you want to be
     close, I'd like to contract with you VERY briefly about a later time
     when I may feel better (exact times I cannot gauge, but I can promise
     some time when I am less isolated/disconnected).  If I am feeling weepy
     I would like to be able to come to you for comfort, but if you feel
     that at any point you cannot provide it for any reason I would hope you
     could respond with something supportive.  A simple "I care" or "I love
     you" might help.  A "not right now, but later" would also help.  I
     think the meeting of needs is one of the major problems that PMS throws
     off - the schedules clash - my needs may not be meetable now and your
     needs may not be meetable now, but verifying that they are MEETABLE and
     there is a desire to meet them is vital.  
    
     When it comes to communication, if I am feeling particularly
     uncensored/free/needing-to-vent, I may preface what I say with "I'm
     going to vent" or "I need to vent" and that may tip you off I don't
     want problem solving or resolution suggestions, nor do I want
     commentary or judgment.  I *just* want to get it out, say it to
     someone.  Wait until I am finished.  If you're uncertain about whether
     I'm done, ask.  
    
    "If I fly off the handle, pause a second if you can stand it.  Let me
     look at what I've just done.  If I keep on doing it, say something
     like "I need to be away from you while you are like this for a short
     time.  I need to protect myself."  That will both alert me to what I'm
     doing, help me realize you can take care of yourself, and let me choose
     whether I can find it in myself to apologize or step out of the
     anger/hurt and share with you openly.  Sometimes I will not be able to
     apologize.  Sometimes I will need time to think about what I've said
     and why, and that insight in itself may be vital.  I may choose to
     share it with you later, and I may not.
    
These are all good suggestions, I agree with them, and I will do this.

Please understand that that is what I will do ALL THE TIME, not just
during PMS.  To me, your suggestions are statements about how to be in
relationship.  If I were to make those statements, I'd be talking about
"staying inside our boundaries."  If you (and I) don't have boundaries and
can't stay within them, then the relationship is going to get very messy.
If you are having any kind of problem, it is your problem, not mine.
I can be a wonderful listener, you can use me to talk it out, or even to
cry it out.  I may ask you questions to help you look at something that you
are trying to look at.  But the problem is your problem.  You will only
get suggestions from me if you ask for them.  I'll keep my opinions to
myself unless you ask.  And even then, I will not try to tell you what
to do.  I want to support you in your search, not my idea of what your
search ought to be.  I will let you find your own answers, not try to
give you mine.  This isn't therapy, it's respect, it is my way of
honoring who you are.

I expect the same from you.

Scott Peck says that love is "the will to extend oneself toward the
nurturing of one's own or another's spiritual growth."  Every word
of that statement is worth weighing very carefully: will, extend,
nurture, own, another, spiritual, growth.

If I were to add anything to it, it would be to emphasize that the
"other" must want that growth.  I can't love you if you don't want
that growth.  Likewise, if I am not receptive to my own growth, if I
am not loving myself, your attempts to love me will be wasted.

And that is where boundaries come in.  We each have to be working
on our own spiritual growth in order to be receptive to the other's
love.  We have to have our own space in which we exist.  And we have
to invite the "extended nurturing" of the other into that space,
but on our own terms, not on the other's terms.

The only time that the boundaries dissolve is in love-making.
In the passion of loving, all the walls come down.  That is what
the bliss of union is all about, and that's why it is so terrifying.
If we both "let go" we get transported.  We lose control.
We fall into each other and the falling is a terribly vulnerable
(but ecstatic) place to be.

So, PMS (to me) means only that your behavior may be different,
because you are more earthy, less rational, etc, and that if I
am to be your partner, I have to be flexible.  The person that
I can be comfortable with (with low energy expenditure) during the rest
of the month is now different.  I need to spend more energy to be
comfortable with you during the PMS time.

But PMS or not, the rules for relating are the same, and the
boundaries are the same.
 
    "If I am being irrational, the WORST thing in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE you
     can do is tell me to "get a grip"...  It will make me angry 
     DON'T try to use logic on me when I am being irrational... do not 
     prove how wrong I am with ... (do not further my embarassment)
     A patronizing tone will anger me further...  Treat me as a
     competent, intelligent, member of the human race.  

I have a problem with the last sentence after reading the preceding
ones, because you mention competency and intelligence side by side,
and imply that if those traits are diminished for a few days of the
month, that you are not a member of the human race.  I am not making
that assumption, you are.  You want me to understand that you are
irrational, and impulsive, and not exercising your usual smoothing
of your emotions.  I can accept that, but you don't give me much
room in which to be with you, because it sounds like if I do anything
to try to acknowledge all that (and to take up any slack in the rope
that we walk as a couple) I am going to be interpreted as patronizing.
I realize that the feeling of being patronized may be old scripts playing 
out in your mind, and it will take time to replace them with new
scripts.  Fine.  I don't have an agenda for you.  It will help for
me to know your agenda.  A simple statement like, "I'd like to feel 
a year from now that I am able to relate better to you during PMS."
I can support you in that kind of growth.

     Protect yourself if I am lashing, distance yourself if necessary...
     Just care about me, show that, and leave if you must.
    
I will.
    

    
    

>Please understand that that is what I will do ALL THE TIME, not just
>during PMS.  To me, your suggestions are statements about how to be in
>relationship.  If I were to make those statements, I'd be talking about
>"staying inside our boundaries."  If you (and I) don't have boundaries and
>can't stay within them, then the relationship is going to get very messy.
    
>search ought to be.  I will let you find your own answers, not try to
>give you mine.  This isn't therapy, it's respect, it is my way of
>honoring who you are.
    
    "This is a unique response, in my experience.  This is a VERY different
    way from how others have responded to my PMS.  You wish to accommodate
    the way I am by changing some things you do, to the extent that you
    feel comfortable.  This not only respresents your respect for and
    acceptance of me as a whole human being, but it also echoes again your
    love for me.  I am beginning to relax and accept how this could work
    between us.  However, what I feel right now (and what I often feel if
    someone changes something or "puts themselves out" for myself in a
    relationship) is that "I owe you something".  I am aware you have made
    this decision within yourself, but something in me wishes to thank
    something in you somehow.  My next response were we talking would be
    "is there anything I can do in return", and you would have to decide if
    there was anything you needed.  I feel give and take is vital,
    sometimes I overemphasize it, but I would acknowledge at this point
    that I am not the only one with needs, nor am I the only one in the
    relationship whose needs should be met."
    
    >   I expect the same from you.
    
    "This might be difficult at first.  I tend to problem-solve for people,
    but if you should catch me doing it when you do not wish it, please
    just interject gently that I don't have to solve your problems for you,
    and I will learn rapidly.  This was the hardest tendency to come during
    my 5-day facilitator training - my tendency to problem-solve for other
    people, so the task is already well begun."

>love.  We have to have our own space in which we exist.  And we have
>to invite the "extended nurturing" of the other into that space,
>but on our own terms, not on the other's terms.
    
    "That, I feel, is where much of the conflict comes in.  Some people do
    not permit the grace and wonder of the extended nurturing of the other,
    and do not provide energy to that part of themselves which could
    nurture in return.  It is the turning of difference, sometimes jarring
    or incongruous difference, into outreaching (rather than argument,
    dissonance, angst, turning away or turning inwards), that marks for me
    the relationship with utter potential for growth, of the relationship
    and of the separate people.  

>So, PMS (to me) means only that your behavior may be different,
>because you are more earthy, less rational, etc, and that if I
>am to be your partner, I have to be flexible.  The person that
>I can be comfortable with (with low energy expenditure) during the rest
>of the month is now different.  I need to spend more energy to be
>comfortable with you during the PMS time.
    
    "Yes.  I feel a sudden urge though, when you mention spending more
    energy being with me, to note that I am somehow beholden to you for
    taking this extra energy for me (perhaps this stems from some sense of
    unworthiness or insecurity on my part - in the past I have done many
    things for my partner, often above and beyond the "call of duty",
    because perhaps I felt I was loved for what I could do for them, rather
    than loved for who I was).  

>But PMS or not, the rules for relating are the same, and the
>boundaries are the same.
    
    "They should be!  Now I begin to see they should be!  When I bitched or
    cried and that brought forth a "damnit, why do you always get like this! 
    I'm outta here!" from previous partners, it felt like I was at fault,
    or broken somehow.  But with equal, honoring partners there is space
    for imperfection, and room for not being fully giving or fully
    nurturing or able to respond the way I'd like to all the time - for
    BOTH of us."
 

>I have a problem with the last sentence after reading the preceding
>ones, because you mention competency and intelligence side by side,
>and imply that if those traits are diminished for a few days of the
>month, that you are not a member of the human race.  
    
    "That is, indeed, how it has felt.  That is how women are told time and
    again by society they are when they have PMS.  It's been used as an
    excuse not to promote women into upper echelons of business, or not to
    make them fighter pilots, or whatever.  Not that we're not "human" just
    that we're not good enough to do things other "humans" do just because
    we get PMS sometimes.
    
>  You want me to understand that you are
>irrational, and impulsive, and not exercising your usual smoothing
>of your emotions.  I can accept that, but you don't give me much
>room in which to be with you, because it sounds like if I do anything
>to try to acknowledge all that (and to take up any slack in the rope
>that we walk as a couple) I am going to be interpreted as patronizing.
    
    Not necessarily.  Your tone, demeanor, and language will signal whether
    you are respecting me, and calling out what is happening.  I feel that
    shortly into the accommodation process it will become obvious what is
    happening, when, as we both tune in (I am permitted to accept and be
    with my PMS, and you learn to read the signals - maybe I could even
    call out to you what I'm going through so you can better understand) to
    what is going on, it will become less important to verbalize it, and
    more important to just realize it.  You know what "patronizing" feels
    like, I'm sure.  If at any point you are hitting my "patronizing"
    buttons, or my "you're too sensitive" buttons, I will tell you the
    moment I notice it to save myself resentment, and save you having to
    deal with my resentment of your attitude.
    
    
>scripts.  Fine.  I don't have an agenda for you.  It will help for
>me to know your agenda.  A simple statement like, "I'd like to feel 
>a year from now that I am able to relate better to you during PMS."
>I can support you in that kind of growth.
    
    I don't really have an agenda.  I want to grease the skids of our
    interaction when I have PMS.  I don't think there can be any time-limit
    on doing that.  I suspect with two willing partners, there will be a
    LARGE change within several months, particularly if we focus a bit on
    communication, on sharing, when I have PMS....and the rest of the
    finetuning will follow over the next year or so.

    Wow!  It's really starting to sound like learning a new dance
    step.  All we knew how to do is waltz before, now we're 
    going to learn swing.  (the analogy isn't so hot because
    in both dances, the man leads, and in PMS (swing) the woman 
    is probably doing most of the leading)  So, don't look
    too closely, I only mean that we are going to learn to
    move together in a new way, and it can be as satisfying
    to do as a couple as the old waltz was.
    
    Well, there will be some stepping on toes, and an occasional
    elbow in the ribs, and a lot of patience is needed, and
    maybe even a lesson or two from a teacher.  But I'm really
    encouraged, and hopeful.  Knowing that we both want this and
    think it can happen feels me up with joy.
    
    So we now have an agenda as a couple.  I work in my space
    you work in your space and together we do a new dance.
    
    Wil

    
    I am REALLY enthralled with what just happened here.  I am uncertain as
    to what fruit it brought to the conference, but if people DO take the
    time to untangle the snarl, results can be found, communication can
    occur, and hurt feelings - often from far in the past - can be healed.
    
    After we learn to dance, can we learn to fly?
    
    -Jody

    I am enthralled by what happened too.  I wish I had been able
    to do this years ago, Jody.  In some sense I was reliving old
    scripts here, rewriting them as I went.  The "boundary" stuff 
    I have really only learned in the last year, the hard way.
    
    It has been a real privilege to be able to do this with you.
    I've had a few sleepless nights churning with this stuff.
    Taking your reply home and reading it, going to sleep, 
    waking up and rerunning old scenes in my head, understanding
    what I was doing wrong, what she was doing wrong, etc,
    applying what I now know about myself and what I want, etc,
    was a lot of hard work.
    
    And I felt you were working just as hard, so it felt
    like a partnership. 
    
    And I feel like it can be a reality for me in the future.
    I hope you do to.
    
    That statement I made about you being faster with knowing
    your feelings is true of many women, which is why men are
    often outdistanced in the feeling realm and why they back
    out of the interchange on feelings - we can't keep up the
    pace.  (And we switch into logic realm, we we're pretty 
    good.)  In order to stay in the feeling realm, we need to 
    take the initiative to ask for time -- using exactly the 
    tactic that you outlined, and I used.  It might go like 
    this:  "I want to talk some more about this, hon, this is
    important, but I'm getting overwhelmed.  I need to take a 
    break to find my feelings and sort them out.  How about 
    if I take a little walk, and I'll be back in ten minutes?"
    
    Now, the other side of this is that the women that I meet
    these days, that I WANT to meet these days, are past menopause,
    so the actual problem of PMS is not so likely to be there.
    But it was very healing for me to rework those old scripts.
    And it is not as though PMS is the only difficult area between
    men and women...
    
    Thanks very much.               Wil
                                      

    
>    And I felt you were working just as hard, so it felt
>    like a partnership. 
    
>    And I feel like it can be a reality for me in the future.
>    I hope you do to.
    
    I hope so.  you helped me realize there are men out there who are
    WILLING to hear me and respect my feelings, willing to work WITH me
    rather than leaving all the work on the relationship TO me.
    
>    That statement I made about you being faster with knowing
>    your feelings is true of many women, which is why men are
>    often outdistanced in the feeling realm and why they back
>    out of the interchange on feelings - we can't keep up the
>    pace.  (And we switch into logic realm, we we're pretty 
>    good.)  In order to stay in the feeling realm, we need to 
    
    I think many men might not LET themselves feel often - really immerse
    themselves in what's going on for them and focusing to see what's
    behind THIS feeling (usually another feeling) to uncover what is at the
    core of them at that moment.  If feelings are unfamiliar oceans some
    men may feel they are not totally competent at the emotional analysis,
    or even emotional description, and I am fully aware that some men I
    have loved would rather NOT feel, than feel discomfort with allowing
    themselves to feel the feelings.  Feelings aren't necessarily something
    you need to DO anything about.  They are STILL very scary for me - I
    have been learning a lot about myself and having discovered my emotions
    and particularly my needs relating to them I fear that if I let go, I
    will NEVER stop needing, and NEVER obtain balance or rationality again. 
    I fear being overwhelmed, and I fear being thought of as "silly" or
    "stupid".  But these need not be the results of emotional disclosure -
    particularly with a supportive partner or guide as we go through the
    feelings to come out more whole, or more knowledgable about parts of
    us, on the other side.
    
    
>    important, but I'm getting overwhelmed.  I need to take a 
>    break to find my feelings and sort them out.  How about 
>    if I take a little walk, and I'll be back in ten minutes?"
    
    I get the feeling that, like me, some men need to be "on" all the time
    - RIGHT ON TOP of things, totally together, capable, and fully able to
    have "the answer".  If a man could actually feel comfortable saying
    that, it would bring me gladness.  I would not have to be perfectly
    together all the time either.  I *could* be human.
    
    Thank you for walking through the labyrinth with me.  Thank you for
    letting me see there *are* alternatives.  Your energy truly helped me.
    
    -Jody
    

    You two did a fantastic job!  If I didn't know this had been a scenario
    I would have said I could see Love during these exchanges...  As it is,
    it is going to take time to process what went on here.  Big questions:
    Do Jody and Wil represent your avarage female and male?  What
    techniques did they use that everyone can use?  What is the lesson, if
    there is one?
    
    I hope you two have a nice weekend and get some rest!

I doubt they represent the average man and woman, but rather the ideal of 
what "could be".  They are speaking from their hearts and their plain 
yet moving words testify to that.  And I admire their courage to expose 
their intimate thoughts and feelings in this public forum.  I only wish I 
could be as open as they are, at least at the private and personal level.

Eugene

    Permit me to express my admiration, too.  I got a lot from that
    exchange and I honor you both, Wil, Jody; thanks.
    
    DougO

>    Do Jody and Wil represent your avarage female and male?  

 I don't know Wil but I do know Jody. I'd have to say she's exceptional. :-)
So they certainly aren't "average."

 Kudos on an enlightening exchange.

 The Doctah

    
    Tell you what I'm going to do (talk about taking risks).
    I'm going to sign back in here and respond to your original question,
    Wil, when I've got PMS something vicious.  If you have the energy, we
    can try it with the gun loaded, so to speak.  I suspect we were REALLY
    trying with all the valves of humanity and sympathy and respect open. 
    Let's clog the jets a bit and try again later.....
    
    Would you be up for that?  I honestly think that if ANY communication
    can happen, this whole experiment and revelation cannot in any way be
    construed as a failure.  
    
    Weaknesses and all....
    
    -Jody
    

    Got your message.  Lemme ruminate on it.       Wil

    If your rumination leads you to say "no", which is absolutely as fine
    an answer as yes in this case (we're talking a serious energy drain
    again).....I will just waltz in here and respond with the PMS filter
    on, perhaps give a parallel discussion "what I'm feeling" "what I'm
    thinking" with myself, and let you see the difference PMS can make.
    
    -Jody
    

Jody,

July 19th is my last day at Digital.  By the end of July, I will
be starting a new life in Virginia.  One part of me wants to be
with my grandchildren there - to witness their growing up - and the
other part of me wants to explore what I will do next in my life.

I'm in a time of endings just now.  Endings with software eng'g
after 34 years, endings with five other men with whom I have
shared weekly meetings for four years, endings with a church
community that I have often called "home" over the last six years,
endings with my condo that I have fashioned as my "nest," and 
endings with a wonderful woman.

My energy is on these endings.  People tell me that I don't look
happy.  I'm not surprised.  These endings are all painful.

I am trying to keep body, mind, and soul together.  I dance with a
tennis ball against a backboard every day that I can.  That's a
bitter-to-sweet lesson that I learned from a former partner.
"When I dance with a man, I expect him to look at me," she said.
It comes to me always when I am slamming that ball into the back-
board and dancing to meet its return.  Slamming tennis balls 
against a backboard is spiritual work for me.  It focuses mind, 
body and spirit, and focuses them in my maleness.  I feel a tired
harmony when I am done.

It's the kind of focus that I will need in the coming year.

You can see where this reply is going.

What you and I did together here is to talk about how we could
be in relationship.  What you are proposing seems to me a lot
closer to being in a real relationship.  If we were to move on
from dealing with old scripts and our imaginations, and start 
dealing with the here-and-now of our feelings and thoughts, 
we would need more commitment than I can muster.  And we would
need all the benefits of being in relationship to carry us through
the tough times.  "Electronic hugs" are good for my mind, but they
don't do anything for my body.

I have reread our dialogue from last week many times, and I noticed
some loose ends in it.  At one point, I thought of trying to pick
it back up and deal with some of those loose ends -- we did so well
with the big issues.   Then I realized that those details are to be
worked on with a real partner.  We did a "rough design."  The detailed
design, the implementation, the testing, and the "return on investment" 
has to be done with a real, committed partner.   

( I hope I meet a woman in Virginia who can match your
  guts, sensitivity and spirit...  And I hope that she 
  and I can repeat the work that you and I did and then
  move on into what follows.)

Wil

    As you wish.  
    
    Best of luck.  I'll miss you.
    
    -Jody
    

    I hate to break the mood....but....
    
    In this morning's Manchester Union Leader, Alan Derschowitz had a
    cloumn about a historic court case:
    
    In Virginia or S.C., I can't remember which, a State Trooper witnessed
    a car swerving in the road. 
    
    He stopped the car, and he and his partner approached it. He asked the
    female driver (children were in the car, returning from a dinner party)
    to see her license and registration. She began screaming at him that he
    had no right to stop her, she was a doctor. (Orthopedic Surgeon) He
    claimed he smelled liquor and asked her to step from the car. When she
    exited the car, she attempted to kick him in the groin, where upon, he
    wrestled her to the ground, handcuffed her and took her to the station.
    While in the station she again became hostile when asked to take the
    breathalizer test, actually kicking over the machine and creating a
    ruckus again. She finally took the test and was well over the limit.
    
    In court, before a female judge, she admitted to all of the actions but
    claimed no responsibility due to PMS. Her lawyer claimed that her
    resistance was lower and the alcohol was absorbed into her blood at a
    greater rate and that her reaction was hormone induced and she couldn't
    control herself.
    
    Verdict: NOT GUILTY.
    
    
    Please read the article as he goes into much greater detail than I.
    I'll cut it out and forward copies if anyone's interested. Or possibly
    someone could type the entire text.
    
    Summary: Does she operate on patients during the same time? Is she
    responsible for any wrong doing is she has a martini at lunch and
    sugery at 2:00?? I believe this is getting a bit out of hand. I have 
    a certain amount of sympathy and understanding, but that behavior is
    awfully bizarre. I'd hate to think that PMS is going to be a defense
    for murder, child abuse, etc.
    
    Ken

    
    of course.
    
    they will undoubtedly want it both ways..