Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    NLP?
    EK?
    
    ed

    Please let us know what your experience was when you get back, or what
    you wish to share.  I'm very interested.

    I'm definitely wild and most assuredly a man .. I've never heard of
    this ... like to hear more ...
    
    Bubba

    I saw the "Wildman Weekend" segment on 20/20.  IT was very
    interesting.  My feelings included humor, embarrassment and
    being moved to tears.  I was especially impressed that some
    of the participants were brave enough to share their emotions
    in front of the camera.
    
    I'm not sure my own "instincts" would include dancing around
    a bonfire, beating drums, or yahooing until my throat hurts, but
    that is definitely part of the weekend. I suspect that not
    everyone participates in all aspects of the experience
    equally.
    
    Please do share the experience here.
    
    Richard

    re: .0
    
    I'd be very interested in a report from anyone who goes to
    this wildman gathering, too.  It sounds pretty interesting.
    
    I didn't get to see the 20/20 show.  I knew about it and
    chose not to watch it, partly because I've wondered about 
    the integrity of the 20/20 show in general, and because I
    wanted to REALLY know what these wildman gatherings were
    about, and didn't trust 20/20 to tell me.
    
    I have been at Bly/Meade/Hillman gatherings and then read
    about them in print a few days later.  This has happened
    twice and each time the reporter came only for the first
    day, got enough material for his story, and then left.
    
    A friend (who has been with me to Bly-type gatherings) did
    watch 20/20 and said that Hugh Downs said that he
    "participated", but then in his reporting described what
    happened in the third person, not the second person.
    So he did not say, "We shared this, we did that, etc."
    Instead he said, "They shared this, they did that, etc."
    
    It could be simply a reporter's habit, or it could be that
    Hugh went only for the story, not because he wanted to
    experience what happened to him...
    
    Wil
    

    
    so do they howl at moon like dogs, wear skins, and gnaw bones .. ?

    My first step in preparation is making my own drum. I'am making a 15in.
    hand drum to take with me. I will definitely share my experience. It
    will be in first person. 
    
    Mike
    

    First of all, I would like to begin with the disclaimers of "to each his 
    own" and "valuing differences" and all that.  I also want to add that I 
    have great respect for Robert Bly and his poetry (but not that John 
    Bradshaw and his brave new world), but I think he should stay in the 
    poetry business.
    
    Well, as a man, I don't find it a pleasant sight of a bunch of "wildmen" 
    all strangers to each other lying on the floor belching and... uh, 
    belching from both ends, and playing other "little boys' silly games".  
    I mean what kind of a heroic journey is that?  The other day, I heard
    Bly talking about rite of passage for the boys, lack of role models and
    losing identity and etc; none of them relevant to this sort of "wildman
    gathering".  Anyway, he wanted to get all the men to identify with each 
    other.  Sort of saying since women have all those gatherings and bondings 
    (at least they are doing this among friends), us men want them too.
    The question is why?

    ...

    Well, anyone out there wanna grab a beer after work and watch a ball
    game on ESPN?
    
    Eugene

    Sure, Eugene.
    
    That was a great game last night between the Bulls and the Lakers.
    
    But why would we want to watch it together, man?  You've got
    a TV, I've got a TV.  Why would we bother to get together to
    watch it?  You trying to save on electricity or something?
    You expecting me to spring for the beer?  What's your motive,
    pal?  We can just talk about it at work today, right?
    
    Besides, if you came over to my place to watch a game with me,
    and have a beer, I'd be inhibited.  Knowing what you think 
    about passing gas from either end of my system, I'd be kind
    of tense, worrying that I might offend you.  I'd rather 
    watch by myself, you know...
    
    So why is it that you want to watch a game and have a beer
    WITH another guy?  or with a group of guys?
    
    And for that matter, even if we watched the game separately,
    why would we bother to talk about it the next day?  What's
    the point?  I mean, I understood what happened, and how I
    felt about what happened.  Why would I want to tell you 
    about it?  Why would I care about what you thought about it?
    
    Are you implying that drinking the beer and watching the
    game together might actually be more enjoyable than doing
    it separately?  Are you implying that men enjoy doing 
    something together?
    
    What if my girlfriend came over and had some beers and
    watched the game with us?  Would that be OK with you?
    
    Wil

    I'm not sure what you are getting at Wil?  Although I agree, that 
    artificially setting something up like that might not work too well,
    but when Eugene made the offer, something in me said "sounds like
    fun".   And I don't know why.  I'm not even much of a sports fan.
    But when the occasion has come up to sit around with a few guys and
    watch a game, it has felt good.  
    						- Vick

    I agree, Vick, it is fun.  I sat with a friend last night
    and watched the Bulls-Lakers game.  And I probably would
    not have watched (for very long at least) if we hadn't 
    been trading "Did you see that?"  "Jeez, he is unbelievable."
    "Boom! Is he hot, six in a row!"  "Definitely traveling,
    definitely."  "What!  no foul?"  And then the "philosophical"
    discussion of whether you have to be a better athlete to 
    play sport X or sport Y.  and the conjectures about salaries,
    life styles, etc.
    
    So why is lying around, swapping stories about our lives, 
    talking about what it feels like to be male at a "wildman"
    gathering,and not caring whether we fart or belch any different?  
    
    (I think it is different, btw, but let's start out recognizing
    that it starts with a bunch of guys "getting together" to do
    something that they like to do (together).)
    
    Wil
    

RE: 596.9 Eugene

   I've had  the same feelings you had, respect for Bly as a poet, but if what
   I  hear  is  true, I feel that he should stay out of leading men's weekends
   (or  at  least  bill  it  as something zany, fun, and ridiculous; and not a
   serious weekend for "men getting in touch with being male").

   One description  I've  heard of one of Robert Bly's "Men's Weekends" from a
   friend who went was "a bunch of 30 something guys sitting around pretending
   to  be  indians  and  glorifying  farting".  Another person described it as
   "basically  the  beer  and football and complain-about-the-wife crowd, only
   without the beer and football." I've never been so I can't judge myself..
   but from their descriptions I think I would have been disappointed if I had
   gone. [nevertheless I'd still like to, to see for myself].

   I came across this in one of my men's issues groups, and include it as lite
   banter and humor.  It's Matt Groening's "Akbar and Jeff" series, not one of
   his funniest but OK...

=============================================================================
 
		       CALLING ALL MEN! CALLING ALL MEN!
	  GET IN TOUCH WITH YOUR SWEATY - GRUNTING - HAIRY MASCULINITY
				      AT
 
     <pic of fezzoid in         AKBAR & JEFF'S          <pic of fezzoid in
     loincloth, saying            WILD  MAN              loincloth, saying
       "GRRR.">                    WEEKEND                "DOUBLE GRR.">
 
   held at the YMCA Summer Camp at the edge of town near the mall
 
<men only bub!>
 
    YOU WILL NEED:                          DO NOT BRING:
   1 Loincloth                             *Deoderant                      
     (or bikini-style underpants)          *Nude Playing Cards             
   1 Jar Of Warpaint                       *Lite Beer                      
     (wife or girlfriends lipstick ok)     *Fraternity Spanking Paddles    
   1 Large Cigar                           *TV Remote Control              
   1 $300.00 check or money order          *Small Handguns                 
         made out to akbar and jeff
 
 
     FRIDAY                     SATURDAY                 SUNDAY
     ------                     --------                 ------
6pm  Bus Pickup            Dawn Nude Jumping Jacks  1am Ouija Board Seance
 (meet in parking lot D    7am  Breakfast: Cold      (Joseph Campbell speaks
  of old mall, behind       Cereal, Day-Old Bran      from beyond the grave)
  circus of snacks          Muffins                 6am Sunrise Sea Chanty
  pavillion)               8am  Seminar: "The Joy    Sing-Along: "Ahoy
7pm  Introductory Remarks   of Pounding Nails"       Matey" "Proud to be
 Hearty Handshakes, Bunk   9:15am Lecture: "How      a Seadog" "99 Bottles
 Assignments, Group Howl    to snap your fingers     of Grog on the Wall"
8pm  Dinner: Franks &       like Mel Torme"          + More
 Beans, Hard Rolls         11am Strutting Around    7am Breakfast: Bacon
9pm Lecture:               Noon Lunch:              9am Running Naked thru
 "Wimp No More!"            Mystery Surprise         the Woods
10pm                       1:30pm Chest Pounding    10am Poison Ivy First
 Open Mike Poetry Yelling  2:30pm Flower Sniffing    Aid Clinic [!]
12am Lights Out            3:30pm Leap Froggin'     Noon Lunch: Beef Jerky,
 (snoring is encouraged)   5:30pm Dinner:            Coffee
                            Leftover Mystery        1pm Lecture: "How to
                            Surprise                 Fantasize About
                           8pm Films: "King Kong"/   Sleeping With Lots Of
                            "The Incredible Mr.      Attractive Women"
                            Limpet"                 3pm Lecture: "Wisdom
                                                     of the Howler Monkey"
                                                    4pm Farewell Ceremony,
                                                     Group Weeping
 
FREE T-SHIRT TO ALL COMERS: "I SPENT A WEEKEND BEING A WILD MAN" 
				    <Tattoos also
				      Available>

    Wil,
    I didn't say it was different.  Was Eugene saying it was different?
    I'm confused, think I'll shuddup already.  - Vick

   >(or  at  least  bill  it  as something zany, fun, and ridiculous; and not a
   >serious weekend for "men getting in touch with being male").
    
    Why do you see these as mutually exclusive?
    
   >I've never been so I can't judge myself.
    
    Exactly
    
   >but from their descriptions I think I would have been disappointed if I had
   >gone. [nevertheless I'd still like to, to see for myself].
    
    I've been -- I disagree with your friends' descriptions and assessments.  
    
    If you want to find out what these gatherings are like, by all means,
    go. But try to leave your preconceptions at home; otherwise you're
    almost surely going to be disappointed.
    
    					andrew

    RE: Andrew
    
   >>(or  at  least  bill  it  as something zany, fun, and ridiculous; and not a
   >>serious weekend for "men getting in touch with being male").
   > 
   >Why do you see these as mutually exclusive?
    
    	Hmm... I don't really. Just the idea of sitting with a bunch of
    	people (either men or women) and having exercises to pass gas seems
    	kind of silly when I would have been expecting something more like 
    	core groups of men engaged in serious group discussion for what it 
    	is like for each of them to be male, etc.
    
    	But I haven't gone for myself yet, so who knows, it may work well
    	in the context of their activities, who knows...
    
	Thanks for your reactions from the weekend, I'll keep an open mind.
    	(And if anyone knows when another Bly weekend is coming to the
    	area, it'd be great if you could pass the info on here...)
    
    	-Erik
    

    "exercises to pass gas"
    
    Hmmm...
    
    I passed a lot of gas, but never felt it was 
    part of an "exercise."
    
    Passing gas from either end of one's GI tract is not done 
    in "polite" circumstances.  And when it is involuntarily 
    done, one is expected to say, "Excuse me."  So, in places
    like the office workplace, the home, restaurants, etc,
    one operates by this "politeness" rule.
    
    A group of men get together (for any reason, whether it be
    to explore what it is to be men, to watch a basketball game,
    to play softball).  Are they going to follow politeness rules?
    Yes, if they feel that those rules still have value in this space.
    No, if they feel that those rules do not apply in this space.
    
    I think if you pass some gas while sitting on the bench at
    a softball game, you are not going to ask your teammates to
    excuse you.  If the odor drives a few teammates away, they
    may playfully ridicule you, but they do not think less of
    you for it, nor do you feel embarassed or shamed. That's
    because some of the politeness rules are suspended on the
    softball bench.
    
    So what happens when 80 men get together for a week with 
    Bly?  No one is quite sure what to 
    expect.   There is a lot of tension on the first day, and
    everyone is "up tight."  (But in no way showing it, of
    course!  Everyone is cool, or joking to try to keep cool,
    or horsing around to try to do something with the body
    energy.  SURELY, you know what I am talking about!?)
    
    Some barriers have to come down, or the horsing around has
    to get organized (like some kind of athletic game -- like
    softball, for that matter), or we have to start felling
    trees or digging ditches, or something!  There is all this
    male energy and we had better start doing something with
    it.  Sitting in a chair with your notebook, waiting for
    Bly to start reciting poetry doesn't do it, you know?
    
    Bly talks about this, says that in a more primitive society
    we would be sticking spears in each other, if we did not
    have some way to handle this male energy.  Something has
    to start removing barriers.  Bly and Meade usually get 
    everyone on their feet, in two groups facing each other,
    teach everyone a chant, and get the two groups dancing
    in an advancing/retreating movement.  The advancing group
    makes a gesture (in unison) at the retreating group while
    chanting their chant.  Then the other group takes up their
    chant, stops retreating and starts advancing, the original
    group retreats.  This to and fro motion repeats, with
    a strictly maintained "ritual space" between the groups.
    Spokesmen for each group leap into the space and suggest 
    the next gesture to use.  The gestures are shaming, demeaning,
    revolting, disgusting, etc.
    
    When this is over, everyone (who got into it) is sweating, 
    laughing, bumping into other guys, pushing chairs around 
    to set up the space for talk, etc.  It now is more like
    the softball bench.  Politeness has retreated, barriers
    have come down, and we didn't do it by having a little
    debate with Roberts Rules of Order about how to go about
    removing some politeness rules...
    
    I think it is the shedding of this politeness restriction 
    that is welcomed when men get together.  Passing gas is
    another politeness rule that is dispensed with.  It is
    each man's way of saying, "Yeah! Let's not follow that
    silly restriction for the next five days!"  Each indicates
    agreement with the lifting of that politeness rule by
    passing some gas.  It's like an ante in a poker hand.
    You have to pass a little gas to play the game.
    
    It's one less barrier, one less silly rule that is going
    to operate.                                 
    
    I think it is only symbolic. It certainly is not important
    that men pass gas at a men's gathering!  And I have never heard
    it discussed, just done.
    
    Wil
    
    (And a reporter, who goes with a critical eye, and a notepad,
    who does not intend to fully participate, but only to get his
    story, is going to see it all as "little boys playing silly
    games."  That's because the reporter is not there for the same
    reasons as the other men.)
    
    (And I don't mean to say that every man there is into the
    gathering in the same way.  The edges of the dancing chanting
    crowd will have a few with sad smiles on their faces, kind of
    half going through the motion and the chant, embarassed by
    something which is prohibited by their own politeness rules.
    They want to play the poker hand but aren't willing to ante.
    They may want to hear Bly, but they don't want to risk
    anything, least of all some kind of rule that says, "Men
    don't dance, men don't act silly, men don't fart, etc.")

    (Please notice that while this one quote got me to write, that the
    remainder of my comments are not directed at any one individual note or
    noter...)
    
>    There is all this
>    male energy and we had better start doing something with
>    it.  Sitting in a chair with your notebook, waiting for
>    Bly to start reciting poetry doesn't do it, you know?
    
    I guess this is the part I don't get about these 'male bonding'
    things...   I know how _I_ prefer to 'start doing something' with MY
    male energy, and I can tell you, while the above doesn't do it for me,
    neither does engaging in a ritualistic dance with a bunch of other guys
    in the same situation, if you know what I mean...   I mean, I'd much
    rather either play sports with the guys, or go out with women...  and
    playing sports with guys doesn't come close, either! ;-)
    
    I mean, hell, I "male bond" all the time, I don't need to pay money to
    go to a freakin' conference for it!  Now, before you flame me, I have 
    a very good friend that is a member of one of these men's groups (who 
    knows, could be in one of yours), and he goes on these weekend retreats, 
    and team meetings, and all...   And he HAS tried to get me to join, in a 
    low-key sort of way (which I appreciate), but I guess I just don't feel 
    I need that...  But, if it makes him (or you) happier, go for it!  And I 
    have noticed that he will hug me instead of give me a handshake, and I don't
    have any problem with that - we've been good friends for a long time,
    and my parents taught me that its not unmanly to show affection to a
    good friend, male or female...  but if he didn't get that, and these
    groups give that knowledge to him, great!
    
    BUT - I _DO_ get offended when I get this 'religious fervor' pitch to
    do ANY of these types of things...  So, I just wanted to say before you
    flame, hey if you want to do these things, great, have a blast, and I
    won't think any less of you for doing them... just don't think less of
    me for NOT doing them - and don't insult me by insinuating that I am
    any less of a man, or any less in touch with my manliness or my
    feelings, for not joining in...
    
    (Sorry, but I just thought of a great line by a Saturday Night comedian
    whose name I'm blanking on...     Dennis Miller:
    
    "And these born-again Christians, what is that??  Is there any limit to
    this?  Can you be born again, and again, and again?  And I really hate
    it when they ask me if I have been saved, and born again...  I mean,
    excuse me for getting it right the first time, you know" ;-) ;-)
    
    Another great Friday afternoon discussion ;-)
    
    Dave
                                                                         

I guess I just don't quite understand this "men's movement" phenomenon.
Alright, so there is this feminist movement.  And I think it is by and
large a high-middle class career women's movement that is trying to be 
avant-garde in the brave new world of business and politics.

Besides a few things like alimony and child support, I can't think of
any reason for this "men's movement" other than the "they got their movement
so we gotta have ours".  They wanna "growth" and be "bonded" and at the
same time "liberated"...

So we too want that.  But definitely not in the touchie-feelie and "wanna 
belch wildman" gathering.  I mean how original can that be, man.

Personally, I think we (both men and women) become who we are after a long
history and much of what is noble and universal has been spoken, sung, painted
again and again already.  Hence, the first stage of the "growth" is to learn, 
appreciate and assimilate these tradition and culture.  To me, "growth" means
personalizing what is universal.  Make it part of me.

I vaguely remember Bly saying something like "few men know what it means to
be a man any more" (with all the effect of the grave tone of doom and gloom
of a poet).  Then there is another article in another notesfile about a 
bunch of people who can't think of any positive to say about the male of
the species.  Well, I think they are nutty.  What does it mean to be a man?
Here is something from Martin Cooper describing the first movement of
Beethoven's "Eroica".  I think it is also a good description of what is
noble about being men.

"The scale of the opening Allegro con brio is enormous, the gait of the
music supremely noble and confident, its gestures both generous and touched
with tenderness.  There is no hint here of the over-bearing arrogance of 
Nietzsche's superman or Wagner's Siegfried.  The all-pervading impression
of strength comes from the controlled vigour and variety of Beethoven's
rhythms, either heavily accented off the beat and suggesting an 
indomitable will to resist, or flowing boldly forward in an irresistible
stream."

I guess few of us will ever measure up to this ideal, but there is no 
competition.  The gist is at forever striving towards the ideal and then 
you are already there.

Eugene

    re .19
    
>I guess I just don't quite understand this "men's movement" phenomenon.
    
    Women's liberation can't exist in a vaccuum.  The male/female roles are
    complementary, so you can't radically change one side without a
    concomitant reaction from the other.  Men, and the meaning of manhood,
    is under distinct threat and there must be redefined.  Otherwise, it's
    a path to self-destruction, because if the two can't get back in synch
    (and there certainly is no going back) then we'll never arrive at the
    new synthesis, which is a complete and whole person/society.

    The latest Newsweek has a long article on the men's movement.  If I
    get the time I'll enter some excerpts.
    						- Vick

>Besides a few things like alimony and child support, I can't think of
>any reason for this "men's movement" other than the "they got their movement
>so we gotta have ours".  They wanna "growth" and be "bonded" and at the
>same time "liberated"...

For me, it's this.  The women's role has been changed, and there is 
pressure on the men's role to change.  For me personally, this has 
produced an emotional see-saw effect of: 

	o  No consciousness around gender.

	o  "Oh, I should be a feminist."

	o  "Oh, aggression and conflict are 'bad.'  Okay, I got it."

	o  "Oh, feminists hate men.  But then how can I be a 
	    feminist?"

	o  "Can aggression and conflict be good?"

	o  "Why is it that I work with women feminists but still feel
	    'other'?"

	o  "Can I be 'manly', whatever that is, without being a macho
	   creep?"

	o  "How can I not be manly when I am a man?"

	o  "Why don't I just spend some more time with other men and
	   check in with them on how they are handling all these
 	   questions and changing times."


The societal perspective of "what it means to be a man" is shifting, 
and it is comforting and (*gasp*) empowering to be with other men to 
try to acknowledge what the changes mean to us personally instead of 
being spoonfed either by feminists or by traditionally masculine 
stereotypes.  

I think it's also safe to say that a lot of men--me included--did not
get a lot of information passed down from our fathers.  Going to these
workshops (and others) to investigate how I want to go about being a
man is a lot better than what I have been doing for the past 30 years:
winging it alone, terrified that I wasn't adequate. 

If you aren't interested in any of these questions or in the changing 
gender roles (maybe the roles that you are using haven't changed much 
in the past 20 years), then I can see why this type of weekend 
wouldn't appeal to you.  Maybe you had a really communicative father 
who passed down a lot of good information to you and was a good 
companion/mentor for you.

							--Gerry