Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I'm one of those people with an aversion, so it's nice to be told that
    I'm not alone.  My aversion is so strong, that I'm glad when the
    "local" teams lose so that they are out of the play-offs, because that
    means that I won't be hearing about them for a while.
    
    Rich

    I hear you.  I haven't watched more than about 10 minutes of any major
    sporting event in years, except when I'm in a bar and that's all that's
    going on; and even then I don't care.  For me, I just don't see the
    point of all that competition.  I do ski downhill, and ride a bicycle. 
    But the point of those activities is keeping myself fit and enjoying
    myself; which doesn't require anybody else to compete against.  Working
    on myself is challenge enough.
    
    When I happen into a sports bar, *I'm* bewildered by the folks in
    there.  When I hear a radio broadcast of a local radio station from the
    local sports bar, talking up some "big" game; it seems to me that those
    guys must not have much else better to do, hanging out, drinking beer,
    getting rowdy, paying attention and investing energy in the activities
    of professional, salaried athletes as they spend three hours selling
    soap and cars for the sponsors.  Who doesn't have better things to do
    than that?  It baffles me.
    
    Last time we discussed anything close to this, I think Steve shut us
    down because we vehemently disagreed about violence in pro football.
    When we provoke him like that, and he shuts topics down, it really
    pisses me off, but that's the way he runs this file.  Lets not get into
    any vehement disagreements here, because it just isn't worth all that
    effort, since we never get to reach closure on anything.  I guess I'm
    saying that I don't mean to say anything negative about guys who watch
    sports.  I just really, really, can't get interested in it myself; but
    I'm glad there are sports bars for folks who like that kind of thing.
    
    DougO

    You guys better not come down here then, because there's not much else
    on the box.  Three of the four main channels are carrying live cricket
    and tennis during the day, with appropriate highlight packages at
    night.  We also get regular national basketball, American basketball,
    Australian rules football, rugby league, sometimes rugby union,
    American football, English and European soccer, F1 and 500cc Grand Prix
    and local motor racing, horse racing.  When appropriate we get live
    Olympics, Commonwealth Games and World Championships, overseas tennis
    and cricket and so on.  Of course, we also have to have sports roundup
    programs on the weekends so we can be sure we don't miss anything
    (believe that the above was not an exhaustive list).
    
    It's probably the way I've been brought up, but I can't conceive of
    being 'sportless'.

         From an ex-football player and weightlifters point of view, one
    thing I have noticed about _*SOME*_ men who are heavily in to TV sports
    is the fact that they were frustrated one way or another in their youth
    atheletically...low-self esteem, not having the opportunity, or a slew
    of other reasons.  I don't enjoy watching football anymore for several
    reasons.  I miss the game, I was never as good as I wanted to be, I
    don't have the attention span (or lack thereof) to sit and watch TV for
    hours on end.
         Then of course you have the other type of sports fan that i
    consider to be hardcore.  The person who, dailey, tracks all sporting
    events.  I say,"to each his own".  
         Nowadays, I enjoy a bigger variety of sports such as: 
    Kneeboarding, Racketball (knee allowing), aerobic-type training and any
    other water sport you can name.  Also I've  become much less
    competative. 
    
                                                            Capt. Scott

    	It is a very culturally-dependant thing. Here (Valbonne) only a few
    people would be able to define the difference between American football
    and baseball if you took a sample in a local bar rather than in a DEC
    notes conference.
    
    	In France cycling is the major sport, both in terms of numbers of
    spectators and numbers of participators, and I curse the times when I
    cannot drive home for two hours because the road past our housing
    estate is closed to anything but the Tour de France.
    
    	Apart from that, I think the major local spectator event is
    probably the Monaco Grand Prix motor racing. I get the impression that
    here more people participate in some sport and less watch it than in
    the U.S..  Most of these (skiing, sailing, windsurfing, running,
    tennis I would guess to be most common) are not usually done in a very
    competitive fashion.

    I remember the days at my parents when my elder brother would watch
    football (UK soccer) on the telly on Sundays just after lunch. I used
    to disappear pretty quickly, since I've never found watching "The Big
    Match" that exciting. So, Re: .0, you're not the only one.

    Last year I was in Galway in Ireland for a business trip. The in theme
    at work was how Ireland were doing in the World Cup. I hadn't a clue
    about the game, but luckily my friend did, so he did most of the
    talking. On my second trip, I tried watching the game on telly the
    night before, so at least I knew something of what was going on.

    I did think maybe there might be some hostility since I was a Brit in
    Ireland, but, nope, they cheered the British team as enthusiastically
    as there own.

    Nowadays, I sometimes watch the snooker, sometimes tennis. But usually
    I curse the Telly for having three channels of SPORT! and nowt
    interesting to watch.

    Pete.

    I'm another who agrees that watching hours of sports television seems
    like an incredible waste of time. The classic image: grossly overweight
    guy swilling a six-pack in front of 3 TVs -- seems like self-descructive
    behavior to me. Go out there and DO it, and you might live a little
    longer! Or (dare I say it) ACCOMPLISH something!
    
    In a former life, I was a public policy student, preparing to devote my
    life to government service. I used to moan about how uninterested U.S.
    folk are in our government, and how poorly informed we are in our
    electoral decisions. IF ONLY JUST *10 PERCENT* OF THE TIME WE DEVOTE TO
    SPORTS COULD BE DIVERTED TO POLITICS. Since then, the intervening eight
    years of off-the-charts popularity of President Ron turned me into the
    complete cynic, and now I see sports-potatoship and politics as equally
    valueless ways to jerk off.
    
    Rereading, I sense some protesting-too-muchly in my reply. It's true,
    I'm another convert, former football/basketball season ticket holder,
    former TV/radio news junky. There is no righteousness like that of the
    converted.
    
    - Hoyt                                                             

    I could also care less. It also seems to me to be destructive; couch
    potatoing, beer swilling...
    
    There are too many other things to do and so little time (we all know
    how time goes faster as you get older).
    
    Now news... I want to know what is going on. Being an amaetur (sp)
    historian, the current news becomes history tomorrow. 
    
    
    Steve

    Thank you, thank you, thank you!  I only wish that I had seen the
    broadcast.  I, too, have virtually no interest in major competitive
    sports.  I've even tried to develop an interest, but to no avail.
    However, my point here is not my personal feelings toward sports,
    but having those feelings held against me in everyday interaction.
    
    I will never fault anyone for being "into" a particular interest.
    I've been known to bore people to tears with my discussions of
    automobiles.  But I would never even consider holding it against
    someone for NOT sharing my interests.  I've been in business
    situations where I was left out of important decision-making
    conversations because they were intermixed with discussions of
    "the big game".  This is when I get steamed!  Include me if my
    responsibilities warrant inclusion in the decision-making process,
    not if my personal interests match the rest of the decision-makers!
    So much for valuing differences...
    
    In any case, it's nice to know I'm not alone...
    
    Rich
    

    RE .9
    
    I too like motor vehicles, especially old ones. I am in a little
    different position regarding meetings and talking to unknown persons.
    My passion is collection old military vehicles of which I average about
    3. One has been involved, along with me in a movie. This is quite
    unusual and most people find this quite interesting to talk/find out
    about, even if it is before they go on to sports.
    
    Keeping up with the news also helps greatly. The more
    educated/sophicistated sales/mgt people I come into contact with
    seem to (a majority) have an interest in current events even if just
    for financial reasons.  I am no wall street wiz, but I can see how
    events affect the monetary situation.
    
    Hang  in there guys! You are not alone.
    
    Steve

    
    I am honestly surprised and delighted to see quite a few guys in here
    who are not that interested in sport.
    
    In my experience, the vast majority of men seem to be happy to spend 
    vast rafts of their free time watching sport, playing sport, or
    watching sport on TV - for many, this is a non-compromise option.
    "I must have my sport". Period.
    
    I have encountered anything from breezy dismissal of me to outright
    distrust, agression and violent reactions if I persisted in suggesting
    that maybe the guy could *just consider* re-allocating some sports time.
    I've been lied to about it, stood up because of it, put in second
    place to it....
    
    OK - so I'm flaming. But I'm not exaggerating.
    I've just walked out of a ten year relationship because of.......
    
    
     football.
    
    'gail
                                                            

Re: .2

>    Last time we discussed anything close to this, I think Steve shut us
>    down because we vehemently disagreed about violence in pro football.

Excuse me?  Doug, could you refresh my memory about this, such as providing
a pointer to the note in question?  Not only can I not remember such an
incident, but I can't imagine how I could possibly have even wanted to get
into an argument about pro football.  The last time I ever watched a pro
football game was when I decided I should watch the Pats when they were
in the Super Bowl, and I think I lasted all of about 20 minutes before
turning it off.  (Oh, right, I suppose the Pats don't qualify as "pro"...)

I'm willing to take my knocks when they're deserved, but I really think
you are mistaken here.


Anyway, I'm another man who has no use whatsoever for professional sports,
or even participating in organized sports.  When I was a child, I was
hounded ruthlessly for not participating in the various football/softball/etc
games.  I just didn't care.

I do enjoy watching the Olympics when they're on, but largely the
individual sports such as gymnastics and ice skating.  

				Steve

    
    	What I've *always* wanted to know is...
    
    	Why do they have a full ten-minutes on each evening's news
    	broadcast purely devoted to sports? No, I should re-phrase
    	that, only the American sports of football, basketball, hockey and
    	baseball? 
    
    	At the very best, it's 10 minutes wasted on much of the audience.
    	What if that ten minutes were something like knitting news? :-) 
    
    	I'd rather have them go more in-depth into headline stories or
    	cover more general-interest stories. The sports should have at
    	most the scores. Not ten minutes on how the Patriots have a new 
    	head coach. There is better use of that time for most people I
    	feel.  Just one of those things I guess... 
    
    	-Erik
                                                                  

    When I was a child/young teen, the only sport I watched with my father
    (who would listen to baseball on the radio while watching football on
    TV) was boxing. I remember stopping after I watched the live match in
    '61 I think when they killed the boxer because the ref didn't stop the
    fight in time. The other boxer had him in the corner on the ropes and
    beat him senseless. He later died.
    
    I also sometimes like to watch skating, skijumping or auto racing. But
    then again, only sometimes. If it is nice outside...
    
    
    Steve

    
    Re 13
    
    
    Sports is news.  It has it's own section in the newspapers why not have
    it's own section on the tv?   Personally, I am not one who would
    purposely sit down and watch sports on tv.  I will watch hockey, and
    maybe a championship game with a local team involved.  Sports on news
    drives me crazy though because I too feel it is a waste of time.  In
    fact, I have to leave the room because I just start gabbing away.
    
    I think alot of it has to do with how folks were raised.  I was raised
    in a house full of females, so we just did not have sports on the tv.
    Yet both my brothers love to watch sports on tv.  My SO would love to
    have every possible sports channel on cable, but he has understood that
    if that was the case I would not get to watch tv which is just not
    fair.  However, he is very actively involved in hockey at Northeastern
    University and with Hockey EAST.  
    
    What makes men sports fanatics?
    
    Mi

I spend very little time watching sports, also, for various reasons.

I like to watch ski racing occaisionally, because I'm an avid skier and
like to race, to maybe learn from and appreciate what world class racers
can do, as much as anything else.

Professional sports in general turn me off because of the glitzy image
that they seem to have taken on since pro athletes have started to make
the big bucks. More power to them if they can get the big salaries, but
let them do it on someone else's money.  My disgust also extends to the
media coverage in general.

I particularly avoid football, because of growing up in the same town
where my dad coached at the high school, and having had people constantly
jam that fact down my throat.

About the only sports I'll watch is if a local pro team makes it to the final
series or game, and then it's a good excuse for some socializing.  Another
exception would be the winter olympics, though the coverage of the skiing
events is generally atrocious.

Super Bowl Sunday is generally a good day for skiing, short lift lines. 
My SO is an enthusiastic skier, so that one sport is a great activity for
us to share.

    Well, after reading-only for a couple of weeks, and reading 16 replies
    from non-sports addicts, I, as an acknowledged sports-a-holic, simply
    HAD to write. :-)

    First, to discuss some of the previous points raised, I am a 
    well-educated man of 30 that has lived around Boston (potentially
    sports capital USA) all of my life.  I keep up with current events; I
    do not spend all day Sunday swilling beer and watching football; I am
    VERY busy with this job and the company I am starting on the side
    (guess what: the company is sports related :-); I am very
    goal-oriented; and I do not consider myself a frustrated athlete.
    But, I do confess to loving sports, basketball in particular.  I do
    watch the nightly 10 minutes of sports (way too short :-), and _I_
    wonder why they waste 5 minutes with the WEATHER - and I never watch
    the 10 minutes of doom and gloom that passes for news.  (I listen to
    the radio and read the paper for my news.)

    So, why do I like - no, love - sports?  Lots of reasons, but I guess it
    is just something that I associate with happiness (even though I'm a
    Sox fan :-)...  One of my earliest memories is that of watching Rico 
    Petrocelli catch a pop-fly and give the Sox the '67 pennant.  And I 
    remember where I was, who I was with, and how happy we all were.    

    I think that's one of the big reasons: the friends that I have made
    through a shared interest in sports.  Sports are a very sociable thing!
    (until they are taken to the beer-guzzling, coach-potato extreme.)
    In school, my best friends were all guys I played sports with.  And that 
    is a trend that continues to this day.
     
    Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it makes for easy
    conversation, something we men (not necessarily myself) are not noted
    for.  (Similar to New Englander's pre-occupation with the weather as a
    conversation piece.)  

    Sports are an easy shared experience.  (And something you guys seem to
    be missing out on.)  Talking about work is boring; if women are around
    you can't talk about them :-); politics?; religion?; world events? 
    philosophy?  Well, OK, I can do that, but it seems to me that you get 
    more confrontations and arguments talking about those items than you do
    about sports...  Then again, talking with a fan of a bitter rival can
    provide enjoyable, light-hearted banter (in a way that those for and
    against a political platform cannot share).

    I also appreciate the dedication, the singleness of purpose, the work
    that it takes to become a professional athlete.  I admire the absolute
    BEAUTY of well-played sports (like looking at a beautiful woman, or a
    sunset, or the leaves changing color, or the first snow).  If you truly
    understand the sport, the brilliant artistry of the masters can be as
    thrilling and exciting as a first date (the last few notes I was
    reading :-)...                  

    To me, sports also provide a sense of community, i.e. pride in my small
    corner of the world.  It sounds corny, I know, but what else can give
    an entire region pride?  A good speech?  A Nobel prize-winner?  A great
    invention?  Mike Dukakis running for president?  Hardly.  The Celtics
    winning a championship?  You bet!  A year's bragging rights when
    talking to our warm friends in LA!

    It is also a very important emotional release for most men, I suspect.
    We all collect incredible amounts of tension energy in the fast-past
    90's each day; rooting for your favorite team is a socially acceptable
    way of releasing tension; of getting emotional about SOMETHING; of
    FEELING deeply about something.  I agree, DOING sports is a better way
    of releasing this energy, but observing them also provides this outlet.
    You may be forgetting that 'sports' originally were training grounds
    for warriors (Christians v. Lions, 2:1 odds on the lions :-).  The
    Greek Olympics even postponed a conflict in ancient times!

    I agree that today's antiseptic "boob tube" sports sloth is a far cry
    from the ancient warriors; and that the amounts of commercials
    pedalling the almighty dollar are extreme, yet I would argue that these
    extremes have impacted EVERY aspect of our society, not just sports.
    If sports did not exist, lazy people would still waste their time
    watching soaps, or sitcoms, equal wastes of time, IMO.

    Well, I've rambled on long enough; I just wanted to provide a few of
    the deeper reasons why so many men enjoy sports.  Hope this helps.

    ML                                                            

	I watch some sports, largely because I admire virtuosity in many fields
of endeavor.  It's a pleasure to watch Larry Bird get a rebound or Nolan Ryan
throw a fastball because they're so good at it.  I also enjoyed watching Kevin
Kline play Hamlet and Mikhail Baryshnikov dance the Nutcracker.

	I, for one, will miss the football season.  Football is the one thing
I can watch on TV while I iron my shirts -- with multiple instant replays, I 
never miss anything good.  I also find the strategies adopted by the coaches in
various situations fascinating.  No frustration here about football -- whenever
I hear two of those armored mammoths collide, my overwhelming reaction is 
"Better them than me."

    
>    	Why do they have a full ten-minutes on each evening's news
>    	broadcast purely devoted to sports? No, I should re-phrase
>    	that, only the American sports of football, basketball, hockey and
>    	baseball? 
    
Maybe because there are people like me who only watch TV news for the 
10 minutes of sports.  I get my news from the newspapers, but I can 
find out who won the basketball game by watching the 11 o'clock 
news, just to find out the results of the game that ended 30 minutes 
earlier.  (A game that I cannot watch, because I don't have cable.)

I love to play and to watch basketball.  I am a big Celtics fan (don't 
care much for college, but am enjoying UCONN's recent success).  
Although I do things like read all the newspaper articles on the day 
after a Celtics game, read statistical charts, and watch as many away 
games as I can, I'm not obese, I'm not a couch potato, I hate TV (in 
general), I don't swill beer, and I do not oppress people with talk of 
Celtics statistics.

What is the attraction to me?  I play the sport, and I really 
appreciate the level of play on display.  When I watch the game, I 
understand the various options that were turned down, the various 
thoughts that may race through an athlete's mind in a basketball 
situation, and I understand the degree of difficulty of making certain 
types of plays.  It's fast paced, I vent some aggression, I get to 
take defeat gracefully (sometimes), and I learn.  As for the 
statistics and "what if?" types of discussions, I enjoy those in the 
same way that I've enjoyed trying to guess which movie will win the 
Academy Award this year (I pick "Goodfellows" over "Dances with 
Wolves," by a nose hair).

I'd also like to point out that, in "sensitive" male circles, I feel 
that I am discounted--for being a Celtics fan--just as swiftly and 
judgmentally as I've seen non-sports-fans ostracized in a sports bar.  
This seems to be a highly charged issue, with men taking either side 
of a fence.  I for one would love to be with people who could shift 
gears from the Celtics to movies to politics to art to pop music, and 
so forth.


							--Gerry

    OK, at a decided risk ... I'll open my Kimono ...

    I *live* for NFL season.  I know the teams, their history, the players,
    the "grudge" games ... etc.  I am a DEC work-a-holic and have even
    posted my home number in ELF as I never mind being called at home with
    a business problem ... but .. you call during Monday Night Football or
    during the Sunday games and you may well find yourself cut short.

    I played football in Junior high, in high school, in the Marine Corps -
    I like the game - the contest - the thrill of it all if you will.  It's
    all a matter of how you want to spend your leisure time ... some people
    like to go to bars and dance their buns off ... I don't ... some people
    like football ... I do .... I don't understand how someone can get a
    thrill out of dancing all night long ... they don't understand how I
    get a thrill out of watching football all day Sunday ...

    Yes, I get "emotional" when the games are on ... I yell and scream and
    on rare (right) occasion utter a swear word or two or twenty ... when I
    was married my wife would leave the house when the games were on ...
    I'm not married, but, my house mate leaves the house on Sunday and
    Monday nights ... then again ... he's from New England and has no NFL
    team to really cheer for :-) .
    
    To each his own?

    Jerry
    
    PS - yes, the Cowboys are *still* my favorite team ... then the Oilers
    (Guess what state I'm from).

>    ..._I_
>    wonder why they waste 5 minutes with the WEATHER 

Yes!!!  And they make us sit through it before we get to see the 
basketball highlights.  No fair!   It definitly belongs _after_ 
Sports.

						--Gerry

    It's nice to know I'm not alone out there.
    
    It always happens.  After an hour in the gym pumping iron, I like to veg
    in the steam room.  And then "he" walks in; "he" being any guy wanting to
    engage in some friendly, "hail-fellow-well-met" conversation (which is the
    last thing I can handle at that monent).  Invariably, he begins with a
    phrase which takes me back to when the teacher would call on me and I
    didn't do my homework: "So, how about that game, huh?"  Yipes.  What game?
    Which sport?  What teams?  Who won?  Usually I can return the serve with
    somehting generic like, "Yeah, that something, wasn't it?"  It matters not
    how I reply, he's on autopilot.  "That Worthy is amazing, isn't he?"
    "You betcha", I answer.  And so on until either he or the room is out of
    steam.  Lately, I've come to point of saying right off, "Sorry, I don't
    follow <whatever>".  The incredulous looks put a quick end to the male
    bonding.
    
    However, after reading ML's eloquent reasons for following his favorite
    teams (.17) I think I might be missing out on something.  Well, almost. :^)
    
    LArry

    RE Weather
    
    It affects everyone in some way, sports affects SOME people
    
    I have never frequented a sports bar. Am I missing something?
    
    
    I think not  To each his/her own.....
    Men have more to talk about than sports
    
    Steve

    re .12, Steve, um, my memory wasn't 100 percent right...the last time
    we discussed football and the discussion got heated was note 409.  I
    indicated some parallels in 409.119 to an earlier note that had been
    shut down (which I think now was 394.)  I just wanted to avoid that
    sort of problem this time around, and it seems to me that everybody 
    is giving each other the courtesy and room for that, which is all I
    hoped to see.
    
    DougO

    The only TV sports event I can remember ever watching were the olympics
    the pro sports always seemed a waste of time. I don't even watch the
    coverage of pro skiing and I've been a dedicated ski bum almost all my
    life. I do like super-bowl sunday though very few people on the ski
    slopes most of them attractive members of the opposite sex.
    
    Has anyone beside me ever wanted to tell a TV sports fanatic to 
    *get a life* ? 
    
    -j
    

	>>>>What I've *always* wanted to know is...	Why do they have a full
ten-minutes on each evening's news	broadcast purely devoted to sports? No,
I should re-phrase	that, only the American sports of football, basketball,
hockey and	baseball? 


Because, of the large male audience.  Also, you'll almost never see a woman
doing the sports because males can't/won't accept a woman telling them about
sports.

-dwight

    >>>    Has anyone beside me ever wanted to tell a TV sports fanatic to 
    *get a life* ? 

    Me, Jerry!

    I box at the Air Force Academy.  The "big game" is the topic in the
    locker rooms and the steam rooms.  If you don't/can't take part in the
    conversation, you get funny looks, sometimes.  It's more manly to be
    able to talk the main sports than any thing else ya can imagine, at
    least, according to those guys.  I box.  Not too many men are willing
    to climb between the ropes and risk injury.  I'm a black belt.  Not too
    many men are willing to stick out what that took either.  But yet, I
    think it's true with many men, that if you can't talk football,
    baseball, etc., that you're somehow "less" of a man.

    And ya know, it's really sad for them.  They're the ones I regard as
    "pitiful."

    -db

    Good point - every night at break the guys all gather around and talk
    about sports this-and-that.  I like watching sports and enjoys playing
    alot of 'em too, but I just don't live/eat/sleep/void sports facts and
    figures.  I'm such a wimp !   8^)
    
    Jerry ...

>    But yet, I
>    think it's true with many men, that if you can't talk football,
>    baseball, etc., that you're somehow "less" of a man.

I don't doubt that a lot of you guys feel this way, that the other men 
are judging you as being "less" of a man.  However, could you be 
misreading their signals?

For example, since I'm only a "sports fanatic" when it comes to 
the Celtics and pro basketball, I often find myself on the other end 
of things when guys talk about "the big game" when it's football or 
baseball or hockey.  When I tell them that I'm not aware of the big 
game, I have seen awkwardness and silence, but I've rarely gotten the 
feeling that those men were judging me as being "less" a man.

Could it be that you guys feel "less" manly (even though there is 
really no basis for it) and are projecting that judgement onto the 
awkward guys who are only trying to connect with you on some 
superficial level?  Also, if you are willing to enter into 
conversations about other topics that you aren't familiar with (I 
dunno, say, "botony"???), then why is there such a charge about 
saying, "I'm not aware of a big game.  Why don't you tell me about 
it?"  

>    And ya know, it's really sad for them.  They're the ones I regard as
>    "pitiful."

Judgements like these are pretty heavy, with very little data to base 
them on.  No?

I mean, sometimes you can tell that a person is being a complete jerk 
about sports, but, working in an industry in which a large number of 
people reach orgasm over a new chip or bit switch, I'm learning to 
have tolerance for people who are more enthused about subjects that 
aren't that important to me.  And it wouldn't be appropriate for me to 
tell a lot of these software enthusiasts to "get a life."


							--Gerry

I typically only watch sports that I compete in, and though that is a fairly
wide range, strangely enough they tend not to be the "sports" [�] that TV shows
or the newspapers cover.

I've noticed the conversation damping effects of not knowing about the "big 
game", but I've always put it down to the usual problem a group has in holding 
a conversation with an outsider present.

To the question "did you see the match last night?" I usually answer with a
deliberate misdirection (such as "I didn't know England were playing") - I
usually know what match they mean because I've checked the TV listings.

As for coverage in the US, I must admit that before going to live in the US I 
was a fan of American Football, but having only (a) played it at school and (b)
watched it on British TV. Now here is the rub: on British TV they cut out the 
advert breaks and the time outs and the multiple replays and consequently get 
the match down to 45 minutes or so of highlights (about 60% of the play). I
found this quite exciting. Unfortunately I couldn't stay awake through a full
game on US TV. And I got thoroughly dis-chuffed if it over-ran its scheduled
slot and caused a favourite show to be cancelled, or infinitely worse "joined
in progress" (who ever thought up that silly idea?)

/. Ian .\

� checking a lot of dictionaries produces a concensus definition of sport that
seems to make it impossible to have a "professional sport" - spectator sport
perhaps, but only if the sole raison d'etre of the game is to allow the
spectators to gamble. Otherwise to qualify as a sport the event must be a
"diversion" for the competitors, outdoors, and a physical skill. Typically this
is defined to include "field sports" (hunting, shooting, fishing and riding), 
amateur track and field athletics and other sports played by boys at 19th 
century British public schools, lawn games of the type played by women at 
country house parties in the 19th century (including tennis)

So college football would count (as a variant of rugby) but the pro game 
doesn't.

    Gerry,
    
    There might be a bit of projection, but from both sides.  I might feel
    less manly because of Sportsfan's uneasiness about my lack knowledge
    re: The Big Game.  Sportsfan may interpet my reaction as a rejection of
    him; I just took away a huge percentage of his conversation base. 
    However, if I started a conversation with, "How about that 'Final
    Jeopardy' question last night, huh?" -- I wouldn't think the person was
    an less intelligent for not know/caring about it.  Not true with an
    unfortunate number of mega-sportsfans.
    
    Regarding those orgasm-producing chips you described, where can I buy
    them in bulk? :^)
    
    LArry 

HA!  I've got a good friend, probably reading this note right now,
who is not at all into sport, made a great comment to me one day..

we were jamin on with some guitars in the back room, I was nursing a headache
from the morning, and we had regressed from making any music to making
awful noise so I told him, "Well that was fun, but I got a wicked headache,
and  we outta stop now anyway, there's a hokey game coming on"

He says, (and I'll never forget it)

	"Ray given the choice between bad music, and good hockey, I'll
	 take Bad Music anyday!"

I laughed for ten years..

He hung about for a while, but once the action started, he was out-a-there.

By the by,,

My only true interest in sports is hockey,  just love the game..

As for the other sportt..

Baseball - I find anoyingly borring...

Basketball - Ditto, cept the Celts at playoff time...

Football - Sorry, but after all the crap, hype, strikes, and the 90
	   Patriots team, I'm not a football follower either.

The other spectator, I can leave em too,,  

Boxing,, pointless, not one ounce of beauty can I find, in two guys
kicking the stuffing out of each other...

Wrestling, big money circus clowns..

Oh, there is one sport I find quite amusing..  Austrailian Football..
If that aint a 'real men' type sport, there is no such thing!
Ever see the legs on those guys ?  Tree trunks aren't that big..

re: -< Aversion to Sports >-

>A report Jane Pauley's "Real Life" program last weekend profiled 
>adult men who lack knowlwdge of, and interest in, the major spectator
>sports (football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.).  Though some

    Basically, it comes down to this: There are two types of people
    in this world: Those who watch, and those who do.
    
    I like  participatory  sports,  where I understand the game, and can
    compete fairly using my intelligence and operable savvy.
    
    Some people prefer contact sports where neither is necessary.
    ;^)
    

>participated in less pouplar activites (swimming, skiiing, cycling),
>all felt ostracized by their peers for lacking interest in "a man's

    As an FYI, in the world  sphere, any one of these three "sports" has
    at least ten times the participation, than  all  the  "big  four" US
    Sports (Baseball  (spitting,swearingm,rugs),  Hockey  (hot  tempers,
    fighting,  drugs),  BAsketball    (drugs,    money,  gambling),  and
    "American" Football (injuries, swearing,  killing,  maiming,  drugs,
    gambling) ).  Its odd  that  a  woman would pretend to know what men
    like, where her view is obvoulsy  prejudicial  to a USA view of what
    sells (in paperback).
    
    
        -BobE
    

 I'm glad someone else found many of the replies here to be exceptionally
judgemental. "They ought to get a life..." "Who doesn't have better things to do
than that?" "The classic image: grossly overweight guy swilling a six-pack in 
front of 3 TVs -- seems like self-descructive behavior to me. Go out there and 
DO it, and you might live a little longer! Or (dare I say it) ACCOMPLISH 
something!" "At the very best, it's 10 minutes wasted on much of the audience."

 Did they have a run on high horses or what? (Gee- did they give odds on those
high horses? Who are the jockeys? An inside tip maybe? ) :-) :-)

 I like sports. I play them, I watch them, I enjoy them. I don't fault people
for not being "into" sports. To each his own. To me, competition can be
both exciting and exhilarating. I don't fault people for getting excited over
creating a new batch of homebrew, and don't expect to be faulted for getting
excited over a basketball game. Everyone gets pleasure out of different
things. There's no need to feel superior over how someone else gets their
pleasure.

 the Doctah

    I generally will watch a sport that I have played or play (say,
    baseball or golf) and have little or no interest in those I have not
    been involved in (football, or hockey). Most of my friends think it
    is pretty wierd that I have not seen a Superbowl since the Steelers
    beat Dallas, but they bore me to tears.
    
    Ever notice how it "we" this, and "we" that when the team is winning,
    and "they" this and "they" that when they lose?
    
    Sports Journalism: Morons writing verbosely about trivia for idiots.
    

    I heard you, Doc.  Wasn't trying to be judgemental.  But I'm still
    baffled.
    
    DougO

    RE: last few...
    
        Well said, Doctah!  I hope my note way back in .3 or .4 wasn't
    misconstrued.  My point of view from both sides of the atheletic fence!
    As The Doctah, myself and a few others have said, "to each his own".
    
                                                             Capt. Scott

    re: my Get a life comment....
    
    My point in saying that is these fans in many cases cannot make
    conversation unless sports are involved. My love in life is gardening
    but I can discuss lots of other subjects besides gardening.
    
    
    -j

    I, too, am not into the "traditional USA Big Sports" - i.e. baseball,
    basketball and football.  My dad was not, so neither my brother nor I
    picked them up.  They are too boring, or in basketball's case too
    noisy.  Funny, though, neither my sons or my brother's sons follow these
    sports either.  However, my wife suggested that my kids might be
    missing out on sports so why not interest them in the sports I do like.
    
    My 3 sons ski; my daughter rides horses; Dad sails and skis.  And quite
    frankly we are almost broke doing these sports, so maybe there is a
    case for the TV athlete.
    
    Seriously though I do feel left out when in an all men's group
    conversation goes to "the big game". But live and let live! 
    I prefer the Olympics, and then only selective sports.

    Alright fellas.  I have been trying to get into sports, but am very
    discouraged to find:
    
    Football--I can never figure out who has the ball.  Usually, when a
    run starts, these guys run all over the place piling themselves on top
    of each other, but the real ball is always somewhere close to the North
    Pole.
    
    Basketball--Too fast for me.  Zing zing zing and the ball is in the
    basket.  Then someone will call a foul, but I can never figure out who
    did what even after the ref. explains.  The most entertaining moment is
    the free through after a foul.  There you know what exactly everyone
    is doing (namely nothing except one), and you can cheer or boo depending 
    on the result.
    
    Baseball--A very boring game.  The guy standing there swinging his
    stick, back and forth, back and forth.  Spit a few things.  The other 
    guy in the middle flexing his arms a few times, spit some more foul 
    things.  Then suddenly he throws the ball at the guy with the stick, and
    guess what?  The guy with the stick does nothing at all!  Then you hear
    a voice--BALL!  More waiting, more swinging, more muscle flexing more
    spit.  Then the guy throws another ball at the guy, and this time he
    swings his stick, but the ball flies right under his bat.  Another
    voice--STRIKER!  More bat swinging, more spit.  Then it is commercial
    time--Red Man the chewing tobacco for the real men.
    
    Soccor--Nobody ever scores.
    
    Boxing--The only sport in which it is a foul not hitting your
    opponent.
    
    Hockey--More fierce fighting than boxing only because it is not
    regulated and illegal.
    
    Golf--More boring than baseball.
    
    Well, I do watch tennis occassionaly when I get nothing better to do.
    On the other hand, I am a big follower of the pan ultimate spectator
    sport--The national politics, especially the presidential campaign.  No
    rules, no regulations, you can fight as low as you want--bimbo tactic,
    lip tactic and etc.  Also nobody really gets hurt because everyone
    follows the implicit rule of "The less you have to say, the more you
    say it".  Best of all, you can side with the team and at the same time
    side with his opponent because you don't really care about any of them, 
    so your team always wins.  For example, in 88, I cheered for the Duke 
    (you gotta go with the home team), but I can also admire the way Bush 
    played the game--the Willie Horten manuver and the lip manuver were real 
    classical plays.  Unfortunately, these things come only once every four
    years.  I personally think we should have an election every year.  Sort
    of like the Super Bowl.
    
    Eugene
                                                     

    RE: .40: And you didn't even mention the REALLY exciting ones: fishing,
    hunting, bowling, chess (remember when Bobby Fischer played for the
    freedom of civilization and all the money in the free world or
    something like that?).  How about WWF wrestling?  And skating and horse
    racing. I haven't seen Roller Derby in years. And I've seen some others
    during my travels: sumo wrestling, Rugby (5 different sets of rules,
    more or less, just in case you ever get the idea you understand),
    sailing, snooker (Exciting, wot?), table tennis.  And then there's
    always the Olympics for the real sports that are easy to understand
    (some folks run, the one one in the front wins, what could be easier?).
    
    ed

    im another who cant be bothered watching most sports on tv and find my 
    interests in the non televised sports such as w/ski etc.
    
    we have a newscaster here whose aversion to anything sporty is 
    famous and his news is great. his editor told him he had to 
    report on the melbourne cup so he did.
    
    quote: there was a horse race somewhere today . unquote
    
    that was the sports section .
    
    i find it a waste of time to watch sport when there is either a good 
    movie on or something else i could be doing.
    
    reg
    

    I admit to be excessively judgmental about spectator sports freaks, but
    there are valid reasons for an invalid response.  Our society devotes
    an enormous amount of attention and money to something which is
    essentially trivial and unimportant, however enjoyable some people find
    it.  For hordes of men, spectator sports are the far and away what most
    interests them, what excites them. This view is encouraged and 
    ratified by by the place spectator sports occupy in society.  
    
    I find  pro football terminally boring and am genuinely mystified by
    the attitude that football is exciting, and that politics, for
    instance, is boring. But this is the message we are given.
    
    As for what hold spectator sports hold on us, I agree with the earlier
    response that much of it is social. I suspect also that part of it is
    that spectator sports allow you the illusion that you are understanding
    something complicated without the work of actually doing so.  Just
    listen to the level of commentary about sports among "professionals",
    let along among your peers.  There's simply a lot less than meets the
    eye.  Only at the level of a Roger Angel, or even a Red Smith, can the
    subject carry enough weight to allow you something to chew on (if I may
    mix metaphors), and at that point interest in sports drops off
    precipitously.
    
    As for the locker room chatter, my response after the weight room (or
    in a bar, or....etc) is a simple "Nah, I don't follow that stuff, I
    think it's too boring", accompanied by a self-deprecating grin.  What
    makes you a man (or a woman, if you are born female) is the ability to be
    comfortable with your own opinions and feelings, and not need to have your
    "proper" role defined by your peer group.  By the same token I can
    talk in the weight room or on TV (and have) about choosing to be a
    stay-at-home father with my three young children.
    
    Kit 

The only sports I ever watch on TV are the Olympics. I find the variety
interesting. I've watched some games of the World series occasionally,
(maybe half a dozen games in my 42 years) but would forego them in
preference to a good movie or something of interest on PBS. The only sports
I watch in person are the Lehigh U football games I go to rarely to watch my
daughter play in the band.

Spending a weekend afternoon or weekday evening glued to the tube for
a ball game has always impressed me as nothing short of boring. While
several of the dinner guests watched football games after dinner this
past Thanksgiving, I busied myself washing dishes and had a far better
time.

-Jack

>    Our society devotes
>    an enormous amount of attention and money to something which is
>    essentially trivial and unimportant, however enjoyable some people find
>    it.  

This is well said.  It brings it into a new type of focus.

Do you think that something has to be important and vital to demand 
attention and money?  If something is intensely pleasurable for a 
large portion of the population, is it "wrong" to devote a significant 
amount of time and money (and, by definition, "value") to it?   Is 
pleasure, commraderie, and a venting of aggression/frustration 
"trivial and unimportant"?   Is the problem the amount of time and 
money spent on sports or the lack of time and money spent on 
education, the homeless, the environment, and so forth?  (...and then 
it makes sense to me that to put more time toward other pursuits, some 
might need to be taken away from sports.)

I liked your note.  It made me think.  (Even though I bring few 
answers to my questions.)


						--Gerry

    RE .47
    
    Well said Gerry (my middle name). I object to the time on the news.
    If someone wants watch/play this stuff, then to each his own. But with
    so much news glossed over for time reasons, and local, national, and
    international news affects everyone along with the weather, I think
    that a simple reporting of the scores would be sufficient. How many
    locker room interviews with that man of words Larry Bird can one take.
    I have seen two types, one when they lose and one when they win.
    
    I find this note very interesting. Most seem not to have an interest in
    couch potato sports. Is that because;
    
    1.  We are more intellectual? After we work for a hi-tech company.
    2.  Only this typer of person resonds to MENNOTES?
    3.  Other?
    
    Steve

I don't understand people's astonishment at the amount of coverage given
sports on television.  It is a simple matter of money.  The networks take
in millions of dollars from advertising during sports events.  Enough people
want to watch them that it makes it profitable.  If nobody watched the
games, the advertisers wouldn't pay and we wouldn't see them.  Simple.

I think it's safe to say that the audience here does tend to be
non-representative of the population at large.

			Steve	

    Hmmm... I don't think I've seen a crowd of guys, conplete with six-pack
    crowd out a room to watch the Big Match... even my brother who watches
    football regularly doesn't go that far. He started watching American
    football a while back. I tried to out of interest, but found the 'gaps'
    between play, where the go over it and try to explain what's happening
    to a UK audience a bit hard to follow...
    
    The thing that bothers me (only slightly) is the timing of the "Big
    Match" and other stuff on the Telly. Sometimes all there is on four
    channels (I'm in the UK, so I have BBC1/2, TVS and Channel 4) is sport.
    THAT irritates...
    
    Pete.

    
    re .50:
    
    You're in Britain right?
    
    Then bear in mind that the "gaps" you mention are when the US viewers
    have commercial breaks so they can go get another 6 pack from the
    'fridge.
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    
    I watch a lot of sports on tv and have been involved in sports my
    whole life. I`m from the Boston area and Boston is one of the biggest
    sports cities in the country and there is a lot of coverage for team
    sports in this area. Having grown up in this area, I was brought up
    to like the redsox, bruins, celtics, etc. and started playing sports
    at a young age. Guys like Bobby Orr, Carl Yastremski, Steve Grogen,
    etc. were my idols. The reason I played was because I used to want to
    be like these guys and I loved competing in sports. If I had grown up
    somewhere like Idaho or somewhere where there are no professional
    teams, maybe things would have been different, who knows. I don`t think
    there is anything wrong with competing in sports or watching them. I am
    not overweight and keep myself in excellent shape but I enjoy getting
    together with some of my friends on the weekends and drinking a few
    beers while watching a big game or a fight on the tube- this is
    america!! My favorite sports are the individual ones like boxing,
    kickboxing. I really enjoy watching fights because I have fought in the
    golden gloves and have had a few kickboxing fights and I have a lot of
    respect for these guys because of the hard work and dedication and
    mental attitude it takes to get ready for a fight. I really appreciate
    that. There is nothing more exciting than watching Mike Tyson get into the
    ring and knock someone senseless ;^). Another thing is, look at the money
    these guys make!! If you take up a sport at a young age and are really good
    at it, you can get a free education at college and if your good enough to
    turn proffessional.....$$$$$$$$, you`ll be making big bucks to do something
    that you love to do. It is also a good way to stay in shape. Hopefully
    I will never let myself become grossly overweight from drinking too
    much beer while watching sports on tv ;^).
    
    Scott
                                              

    -1 has hit one of my hot buttons: the idea that professional sports are
    a realistic and worthwhile career aspiration. It's big money, sure, for
    the several dozen in each sport who can demand the top dollar. Most of
    the others are making just GOOD money, and that for only the few years
    before age or some crippling injury ends their career.
    
    It's a LOUSY career choice, in my opinion, because the odds of success
    are near-zero: tens of thousands of highschool footballers produce a
    few thousand college players who produce a couple dozen pros each year.
    And for every player who makes it to professional football, there are
    several hundred (*) kids who get to spend the rest of their lives with
    gimpy knees. Ditto basketball, baseball, only the injury rate is lower.
    
    That would be FINE, except kids play sports at the expense of things
    MUCH more likely to lead to success, like HOMEWORK! This is too well
    known to keep beating on, as is the criminal practice of colleges using
    athletes who find themselves NOT in the pros AND UNABLE TO READ!!!!!!
    
    Sports are good for conditioning, absolutely. Watching, no way.
    
    - Hoyt

    I think the odds against making it big in pro sports are comparable to
    those of winning the lottery -- taking the number of participants into
    account -- perhaps worse.
    
    Actually, I have to admit to watching an occassional football or
    baseball game, but for the "wrong" reason [as if there's a right
    reason!].  When I want to take a nap, I can find nothing more
    mindlessly relaxing ...
    
    ed

    I'm going from memory here of a Reader's Digest article about 1-2 years 
ago....

    The average black kid aspiring to be an NBA pro has more chance of 
becoming a brain surgeon. I believe the article was written by a black 
brain surgeon in support of kids staying in school and working hard. If 
they make it the the NBA, great, but have good set of brains to fall back 
on if the NBA doesn't sign you up. I suspect the odds are equally high 
against any kid making it in the pro sports.

    Vic H

    
    Then again...
    
    What's the odds at making it REALLY BIG in ANY career, including DEC?
    

    Making it BIG is NOT the question. MAKING it at all is. None of us here
    is what I would call making it big. We are however all making it to one
    degree or another. We are not street people, in jail, living below the
    official poverty line, etc.
    
    If you base your whole education/life expectations on becoming a pro
    sports figure, you are stupid, period. You might as well set your sites
    on becoming a Fortune 500 CEO. You might have better luck.
    
    Steve

If you guys think you have it bad, try telling your female friends that you
can't go to the mall with them because you absolutely *must* stay home
and watch the NY Giants play football.   :-) :-)

Jenna

Umm, excuse me, but is the "poor judgment" choosing a professional 
sport as your career goal, or is the poor judgment choosing a 
professional sport as your only career goal?   Is it equally "poor 
judgment" for an academically "good" student to strive to become a 
doctor, like my roommate in college who went into Sociology after 
Organic Chemistry?  Professional sports is not the only career choice 
in which you have slim chances of making it.

Also, aren't some folks making some pretty broad assumptions that a
failed career shot at pro ball automatically leads to homelessness,
life failure, debilitating injury, and despair?  If done well, sports
can help a person earn a degree, a person who might not have had
another shot at college. And, if the person studied, that person can
lead a better life, in part, because of sports.  All I'm trying to
point out is that there is no one set scenario for a person who fails
to become a professional athlete.  There was a man in my dormitory who
got through school on a basketball scholarship and went to Law School,
for instance.  For every "stupid jock" who never studied, I wonder how 
many ex-college-athletes quietly dropped out of sports after college 
and earned a decent living by using their college degree.

There was an excellent article in the Globe a few weeks (months?) ago
about the chances of making the Celtics basketball team.  The coach
and owners all agreed that the odds were horrible.  They mentioned
that kids don't realize how awesomely talented these professionals are,
and how the people they cut from the team can, without even trying,
easily out perform people in any other league. 

Their advice for young sports fans: Dream and work toward professional 
sports, but have several back-up plans and be prepared to implement 
them.  

I thought that was sane advice.  If no one aspired to be professional 
athletes, we wouldn't have Larry Bird, Wayne Gretsky, or Joe Montanna. 
And I know that not everyone values these people, but I do.  My life 
is richer, in a small way, because I get to watch Larry Bird play 
basketball.  I'm glad that he aspired to be a professional ball 
player.

							--Gerry

 Hear, hear!

    re:.60
<<< Note 547.60 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Phase II: Operation Desert Sword" >>>
    							      /Storm\
    Can't keep up without a program... :-)
    
    Gad, I pray for the troops and civilians and ...
    
    ed

 Amusingly enough, I chose my moniker before I even knew the action was started.
The code name was subsequently given as Desert Storm. CBS for a long while
insisted on calling "Desert Sword." Strange...

 the Doctah

    Don't feel so bad, Mark.  Last night, Colin Powell had a hard time
    keeping it straight himself.  I've also heard "Desert Spear".
    
    			Steve

 They shoulda checked with me first. :-)

    Last fall it was supposed to be Desert Sword.  Desert Storm is
    a new name.  If I had to guess, I'd figure that Desert Sword
    was an operation with a set of plans that was scrapped when
    troop strength reached some big threshhold.
    
    Storm seems appropriate, considering what's been done so far.
    
    ed

    All my life I've been a dedicated non-sports fan.  For me, the issue
    has always been, "Why should I care?"  Those guys on the field are
    total strangers to me; my life won't change one way or the other
    whether the local team wins or loses.  It's always seemed to me that
    maybe if I laid down some bets, I might fit in better because I'd have
    a reason to care.
    
    In the past few years, though, I've started to develop an interest in
    _participatory_ sports.  This started about 3 years ago when I got
    tired of being overweight and took up cycling.  This year my SO has
    gotten me into skiing, and it's been a lot of fun.  In fact, since my
    SO lives a considerable distance from me, I went skiing by myself on
    super bowl Sunday.  It was great!  No crowds...
    
    I guess that what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that a lack of
    interest in spectator sports does not necessarily translate to a lack
    of interest in sports/fitness in general, at least IMO
    
    larry

    Agreed!!
    
    LArry