Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Hi Liz,
    
    God you must be in the mood for a good ruck today!
    
    But I have to ask which is better, the man who openly admires the
    beauty of others, or the women who secretly does so. Surely it is
    better to be honest and let your partner know what your doing, rather
    than pretend to be all starry eyed and loving whilst secretly eye-ing
    up the talent!
    
    But I understand and respect your point of view! (NOTE TO OTHER
    NOTERS! - I had to say that as Liz only sits about 20feet away from
    my desk and I didnt want to be beaten to death!).
    
    Bye
    
    Michael
    

    I say this in the Dave Barry Note file and I just had to put it
    in here! As Liz was probably one of the 3000 women questioned!
    
    
             <<< HYDRA::DISK$USERPACK02:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DAVE_BARRY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -<  Dave Barry - Noted humorist  >-
================================================================================
Note 615.0          Low opinion women have of men is unfair.          No replies
HOO78C::ANDERSON "I'm Happy when I'm Hacking"        72 lines  29-JUN-1990 03:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Low opinion women have of men is unfair
                                      by
                                  Dave Barry
    
	Speaking on behalf of all the guys in the world except possibly
Phil Donahue, I want to say that I am really ticked off about the
results of this recent poll of women. You probably read about it. The
Roper Organization asked 3,000 women the following question:
	``Do you agree that the average man today is a lazy selfish
opinionated egotistical sex-crazed tub of crud who never thinks about
anybody but himself and refuses to help with childrearing or housework
and wants to go to bed with practically every woman he meets who is not
legally his grandmother and tends to have the same annual output of
natural gas as Montana?''
	Eighty-seven percent of the women agreed with this. The other 13
percent noted that men also pick their noses at stoplights.       
	By scientifically analyzing these results, we can conclude that
women do not appear to have a high opinion of men. This is unfair. Oh,
sure, men in the past have displayed certain unfortunate behavior
patterns that tended to produce unhappy relationships, world wars, etc.
But today's man is different. Today's man knows that he's supposed to be
a sensitive and caring relationship partner, and he's making radical
lifestyle changes such as sometimes remembering to remove the used
tissue wads from his pockets before depositing his pants on the floor to
be picked up by the Laundry Fairy.
	And so here we men are, making this kind of extreme sacrifice, and
WHAM, the Roper Organization hits us with the fact that women still
think we're jerks. This really burns my briefs. I mean, I'd like you
women to stop and think for a moment about what this world would be like
without men. Think of the vast array of cultural and scientific
achievements you'd have to do without, including:
	1. Football.
	2. Professional football.
	3. Ear hair.
	4. Betting on football.
	The list just goes on and on. And let's talk about men's alleged
obsession with sex. Do you women think that men are just ANIMALS? Do you
really think that all they want to do is get you into bed? Wrong! A lot
of guys, especially in bars, would be happy to get you into a phone
booth! Or right there on the bar! (``Nobody will notice us,'' the guy
will say, being suave. ``They're watching `Wheel of Fortune.''')
	But that doesn't mean ALL guys are like that. There are countless
examples of guys who think about things besides sex. The guys on the
U.S. Supreme Court, for example, think about important constitutional
issues, as is shown by this transcript from recent court deliberations:
	CHIEF JUSTICE WILLIAM H. REHNQUIST: Whoa! Get a load of the torts
on THAT plaintiff!
	ASSOCIATE JUSTICE BYRON R. WHITE: (Dies.)
	And I am particularly outraged by the charge that guys never help
out around the house. I happen to be a guy, and often, when my wife goes
away, I assume Total Responsibility for the household, and my wife has
such confidence in me that she will often wait for an entire half-hour
before she calls:
	MY WIFE: Is everything OK?
	ME: Fine!
	MY WIFE: Is Robert OK?
	ME: Robert?
	MY WIFE: Our child.
	ME: Robert is here?
	My wife likes to give me these helpful reminders from time to time
because once she went away for several days, and when she got home, she
determined that all Robert had eaten the entire time was chocolate
Easter-bunny heads. But other than that, I am very strong in the
homemaking department, the kind of guy who, if he gets Cheez Whiz on the
sofa, will squirt some Windex on it without even having to be told.
	So come on, women. Stop being so harsh on us guys, and start seeing
past our macho hairy exteriors, into the sensitive, thoughtful, and --
yes -- vulnerable individuals that we are deep down inside. And while
you're at it, fix us a sandwich.
	
	(C) 1990 THE MIAMI HERALD
	DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

    That should be I saw this..........
    
    SAM could you check my spelling! (see Great_Britain 888.lots to
    understand this!).
    
    Bye

    
    
    Mmmmmmmmmm..interesting reading, amusing, but nothing to do with
    this note!!
    
    I don't have a low opinion of men, I was just relaying an observation!
    
    I agree that honesty is necessary, but couldn't it include just
    the slightest hint of discretion & goodness me, maybe even
    discrimination?
    
    
    Liz
    

    Men just cant win!
    
    I once was going out with a girl who told me a story one evening
    about the day she had. But the thing that really pi**ed her off
    was walking past a building site! It was a hot summer day, and the
    guys with cleavages in their pants were watching the world go by
    as they drank their tea! One girl walked past and being dressed
    to suit the weather was whistled at and shouted at - as Im sure
    we've all seen (I would like to point out that I dis-approve of
    this practice). However my girlfriend at the time was the next 
    person to walk past their gaze! and guess what.......
    they didnt whistle!!!!! was she annoyed or what! 
    
    If they had whistled she probably would have moaned about that too!
    
    Anyway, going back to .4 - Liz, discriminate! Now you really are
    being cruel. Are you suggesting that if we men have to look at other
    women we should only do it to beautiful women! How cruel, just think
    how hurt and deflated all the uglies (your term not mine!), would
    feel! No, that really would be insensitive!
    
    Bye
    
    Michael
    
    p.s. Does Jamie know how you feel about him! :-)
    

    I like things of pleasure and beauty. 
    
    I like to sit at the beach and watch a beautiful sunset, I like to 
    listen and relate to really good music, I like to watch and admire 
    good football, I like to eat and praise good food, I like to look 
    at and 'ogle' attractive women.
    
    If I am in a woman's company at the time will she only get upset
    at the last one? I have 'ogled' women in company of a woman friend
    as she ogled the men. There was no problem and we found out what
    our likes and dislikes were. I guess if I did the same thing in
    company of a girl-friend or wife it would be a different story.
    
    So I don't see any problem in admiring ALL nice things so why should
    a woman in a particular relationship with a man object to and try
    to restrict him from admiring one category of pleasure in particular? 
    Jealousy, low self-esteem, possessiveness?  
                          
    As for 'ugly', I don't know. I know that some women that I would
    ogle would not get a glance from someone else and v.v.
              
    Brian.

    My better half and myself always look at nice things, including men and
    women and we point eachother to espially nice species.
    
    Charles

I think my objections at ogling whereas looking at sunsets is ok are that
 
1) The other person is their property and the sunset is public.
2) The other person is as much a sentient entity as the person doing the ogling
   and shouldn't be objectified.

Of course you could say that the body is just the chunk of meat that person
happens to be wearing...

Mark.

     
    
    Well, I still think it's due to some men's arrogance & insensitivity!

                                        
    Liz

    Insecurity ...
    
    If a woman gets annoyed at her SO looking at another women, it's
    insecurity.  Same goes for jealous men.  I mean, if you're confident
    that your relationship is strong, why should a *person* looking at
    another *person* bother you ?  The world is full of 'em !
    
    True, men are more likely to ogle than women, but these guys usually
    don't keep a good woman very long either.  Can't blame 'em though,
    there's only about 6 or 7 of 'em out there anyway ...   8^)  
    
    
    		Smile ladies ....   8^)
    
    
    Jerry

    8-)))))
    
    I am , I am !!

As moderator:

	I deleted a title to one of the notes in this string.

	Please do not use explicit and/or sexual references to 
	people's body parts.

	Thanks.   Back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
	

						--Gerry

    
    RE: .10
    
    Insecurity and jealousy are two different things, getting a bit jealous
    over your SO looking at another is one thing, but getting upset about
    is another.  People wouldn't be human if they didn't have jealous
    tendancies.  I don't mind jealousy as long as it's in a very moderate
    form.......insecurity, I can't stand.
    
    -Lynn
    

    I for one would never pass the opportunity up to oggle an
    attractive body.  Of course, I do use tact and keep the oggle
    to a minimum, say a couple seconds, as opposed to some of my
    good buddies who have to have a long look and add a cat call..
    My SO does the same thing, if she didn't, I'd worry about her.
    
    If you get upset about your SO doing it, I'd suggest examining
    the security of your relationship.  If you get upset about
    people doing it to you, feel flattered that you were graced with
    an oggleable body.
    
    Gene

    When i`m out with my girlfriend,i`m always eyeing up the crumpet.
    
    
    For some reason she doesn`t like this. Why not?
    
    Mind you,if i saw her look at another bloke,i`d kick the blokes teeth
    in.
    
    Captain Headcase.
    
    (yes,the same one - but please refrain from threats of dismemberment or
    comments about my girlfriend looking like a plumbers bench.Just could
    you give good reasoned auguments - like me.)
     

    Alot of men can cause the womans insecurity by telling her that she is
    too fat/too thin not enough/too much makeup etc etc...If they are not
    happier with the girl they are seeing looks wise and forever trying to
    change them , then wouldn't it be easier to just find another
    girl...mind you they might not find another girl to put up with them..
    
    
    This can work the other way around aswell , I ma not being sexist , but
    it is more usual this way.
    
    Tracie.

    Oi, Captain Headcase.  Your girlfriend was giving me the eye last night
    - what are you going to do about it.
    I think it's very impolite to ogle someone else whilst out with your
    boy/girlfriend.
    Mind you, when I take a girl out, she finds it impossible to look at
    another bloke, as she's transfixed by my stunningness.
    
    Captain Shoulderbag.

    Re: .17
    
    I agree with your comments to some extent - my almost ex-husband used
    to always make comments about my figure......such as if he felt I was
    gaining too much weight, he certainly had something to say and if I
    was loosing too much weight, he also had a comment about that.....but
    rarely did I get a "you look nice" comment from him and I work very 
    hard at running and playing racquetball to keep fit.....but on the
    other hand, alot of times I would blow the comments off - I am who
    I am and he was gonna have to learn to accept me.
    
    However, I do not agree with this type of insecurity either from women.
    Women tend to put themselves into this position....always asking for
    comments from men about their appearence, etc.  I do give men some
    credit as I've seen many a good-looking men with not so attractive
    women and it shows ya that those men see more than the outside.
    
    -Lynn
    

    RE: .8
    
    >>1) The other person is their property and the sunset is public.
    
    
    'Scuse me?!
    
    E Grace

Re:-1, 8.

You can take it from me that the average tree doesn't care who looks at it:
sentient life forms might liked to be asked first.

Mister Incoherent.

    Well i`m a tree,and i take great offence to that last comment.
    
    What is sentient life form?
    
    More to the point,why hasn`t anyone(apart from Captain shoulderbag) 
    taken great offence to note 17? I know that i have.
    
    Captain Tree Like Person.
    
    

    
    Re: 22
    
    Well, don't take too much offense Capn' - tree's have a tendancy to get
    up and "leaf" when they please (ha, ha)
    
    -Lynn
    

    RE: .21
    
    That *wasn't* my point!  I was upset about the property comment!
    
    E Grace

    I never understood the BENEFIT of ogling. Well, that is to say, of
    course there is a certain appreciation for a certain form, the kind of
    esthetic joy we take from Greek sculpture. I really do NOT enjoy,
    however, the jerk-your-brainstem-by-the-hormones response which our
    ancestors failed to select out, back when we were cruising on the great
    plains with antelope thighbone in hand. 

    I have a minor lobe dedicated to averting my gaze from such folk, to
    avoid the humiliation. (Was anyone else taken aback by Holden
    Caulfield's observation that you can watch her brains leak down the
    back of the seat, as you lie making out in his roommate's car?) It's
    the same reflex that keeps me from peering in jewelry store windows
    and Saab dealerships. Why want what you can't have? 
    
    - Hoyt

    
    
            This is all very interesting,but out here I don"t think this is
    the situation.We don"t seem to have these particular hang ups.Just
    saying Hi from California.

    Whats the crumpet like in California,then mate?
    
    I hear you`ve got plenty of fit totty with big baps.
    
    Captain Headcase.
    

Re:24 'their property' meaning them themselves being their own property.

    Re .28
    You're out of order son.  You can't beat Woodley girls.

A few back there is a suggestion that "ogling" is a reaction that our ancestors
failed to "select out".

Surely however it is the opposite: checking out your surroundings ultra 
carefully is a survival trait. Avert your gaze to avoid embarassment and you 
might find that the passer-by's camouflage has worked and they have a knife in 
your ribs and are making off with your possessions.

/. Ian .\

    RE: .29
    
    Thank you
    
    E Grace

As moderator:

	Please refrain from using words and labels that are insulting to groups 
	of people.   

	Also, if people from other cultures are recognizing words and 
	labels that are offensive to them, please let the moderators 
	know.  Since all the moderators are American, we can't always
	recognize local slang and whether it is devaluing or not.

	Thanks.

								--Gerry

    > .30
    
    Have you ever been to California?
    
    
                                       L.J.
    

        I had a female friend/best  friend (can't really say that she
        was  my girlfriend although we were  seeing  eachother  on  a
        regular  basis) up until two weeks ago  that  used  to  ogle.
        She'd  stare `em down and then say something  like  `I  think
        you'ld look good in a suit like that' or some such thing.  In
        turn,  I did the same with her and we both  used  to  chuckle
        about  it together.  We had faith in what we had  and  that's
        all that mattered.
        
        She was a woman I would've been proud to have as my life long
        partner.  There were NO inhibitions between us, since we were
        both very much  into  eachother  when we were together yet we
        both gave eachother plenty of time to do the things we wanted
        to with our own friends.   I guess you could call it a casual
        relationship, but with more feeling than just a casual fling.
        
        It's just too bad  that  I  found  out that she was extremely
        hung up on her ex-boyfriend, and now she's gone. :^(
        
        Matt

    why not look at a thing of beauty,there are no laws(moral or
    not)telling you what you can or cannot look at!!!!!
    
    
    
    	PETER.

    There's nothing wrong with looking at ladies, I think most women would
    be (or should be) quite flattered when men admire there bodily
    qualities.
    

    What with this being the 90's en all right last two?  GAG!
    Next youll be tellin us that they belong on the pedistal tah boot....

    they are not objects to be stared at but people to be admired.

    I'll admit I like it when men admire my body qualities , but only to
    admiration level not "lets see how far I can undress this one with my
    eyes" level...
    
    
    tracie..

So I guess all you guys that think it's ok to "just look" don't mind being
scoped out by other men? After all, it's "just looking". Harmless, right?

	-- Charles