Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    >My question, however, is "What does your wife or 'SO' do, if anything,
    >that makes her look/feel 'feminine' to you?"     
    
    She doesn't have to do anything to look/feel feminine.
    
    She automatically is.
    
    -roger               
    
          

    Roger, what a nice thing to say.  I'm sure she would appreciate that.
    
    Nita

Roger, do you have a brother?  Preferably a twin.  Preferably an identical 
twin?.!

E Grace

    Sorry....
    
    just an evil twin!
    
    %^).
    
    

Dang!

    There are many, many very feminine women out there who do nothing much
    to stress or improve what they already have... feminity is "owned"
    then, shown.

    So some women just "have it", eh? Does that mean that no matter what
    they do, you won't notice, or lazily mumble "you always look good,
    baby?"...
    I don't know, I haven't met a woman yet that doesn't require twice as
    much space in the bathroom than I do to accomodate a subset of her
    tools and products, no matter how good and femenine she always looks,
    and my guess is that she buys all the stuff (even though she is
    disappointed by the results of half of the products and they just lie
    around totally unused...) for a pretty good reason, and it's feeling
    good and femenine.
    And if she spends half an hour making up herself for me, I will tell
    her how fine she looks every time, or, better yet, show her (which
    unfortunately isn't always welcome if she's all made up for going out
    for the evening...). Even if she knows a thousand times how good she
    looks, I assume she wants to hear it FROM ME, for good measure!
    Unfortunately, now I don't have someone that makes herself up to feel
    feminine for the evening, otherwise I'll damn well notice and tell
    her, too... 
    From the last notes, I got the impression that many men wouldn't
    want to notice if she has her very own special ceremony for the
    evenings she wants to feel feminine, which is a pitty...
    ...Paul

    
    	I don't have the time to say anything but to point out that we are
    	enforcing socially-arbitrary male and female roles here.
    
    	What is feminine? Isn't a woman by definition feminine? What social
    	stereotypes are we using to define that word? Are all women
    	feminine? Just some of them? Is it natural? Is it biological? Is it
    	purely social (ie, do Europeans consider feminine to be different 
    	from what American think of as feminine)? 
    
    	I can say to a female SO that she is so beautifully a woman. But
    	that to me is completely different than saying she is feminine. I
    	have loved European women who are not feminine by American
    	standards (ie, didn't shave their legs, etc) but who were every bit
    	so wonderfully a woman. What purpose does the word 'feminine' serve?

    	How does the image of being 'masculine' tie in with the image a being
    	a REAL MAN (the old man=macho image)? I see it tying into notions
    	that we have 'male' and 'female' sides (catering to gender roles)
    	instead of just being a human person, ie,  capable of both. 
    
    	-Erik 

    Ironically, it is Halloween today, and you can see the feminine side
    of some men as they wear women's clothes, and visa versa....
    
    -roger
    

    Re .7
    
    >From the last notes, I got the impression that many men wouldn't
    >want to notice if she has her very own special ceremony for the
    >evenings she wants to feel feminine, which is a pitty...
    
    That got me thinking. I'd like to know that my companion for the
    evening acknowledged my "own special ceremony", but I wouldn't
    really want them involved in it, or watching me while I was performing
    it.....
    Maybe some people have intruded into their SO's "ceremony" before,
    or dismissed it as unimportant, and got slapped....so they've stopped 
    complementing them on it. A pity, I agree.
     
    Re; femininity
    I've come to the conclusion that "feminine" characteristics are a
    sub-set of "female" characteristics. The "feminine" ones are those
    that I've been taught to emphasis - the additional "female" ones
    are ones that I've been taught to tread carefully around. 
    F'r example....
    "Feminine" - pretty, concerned about "looks", makeup, dressing up,
                 being sweet, modest, softly spoken, nurturing....
    
    "Female" - includes the above, but adds strength, anger, assertiveness,
               strongly held opinions, political awareness, the "working
               world", self-valuing, high self esteem...
    
    Just my view...
    'gail
    
    

    
    
    >>Ironically, it is Halloween today, and you can see the feminine side
    >>of some men as they wear women's clothes, and visa versa....
    
    
    	I'd hesitate to call some of the men dressed as women that I saw
    	last night "feminine"!  8-)
    
    		  Greg

    I think that many, perhaps most, women do not have to do anything
    to appear "feminine" to a man who loves them. Or attractive for
    that matter. My wife would have to do something to appear *unattractive*
    to me. The makeup and what not she uses I think she does for herself
    or perhaps for others (who are these others? :-)) Probably other
    women as women seem to be more critical of how women prepare their
    faces then men are.

    		Alfred

    Obviously, I married the wrong man!
    
    (*8
    
    E Grace

    Re. 11
    
    No, I didn't mean men ought to intrude into this ceremony, for no doubt
    this is one of those areas in a relationship where it's important to
    respect each other's intimacy, where one should show some sensitivity
    and read unspoken little hints...
    What I meant was that, for example, when I heard how my wife ran
    herself a bubble bath and I smelled the perfume of roses of her
    Cacharel bath-salts coming from the bath-room, I knew she'd be coming
    out afterwards in her silk kimono, that she'd appreciate a particularly
    charming and tender attitude in me and a glass of champagne, and I'd
    put a flower beneath her glass...memories, memories...
    I just think it is important to sense what the mood of the other is in
    a relationship, to share intense emotional moments, or esthetical
    experiences when enjoying music or so...that's what keeps the flame
    blazing alive. And that's why I find it a bit sad that many men aren't
    receptive to the little signals that say "be nice to me now", just as
    it is sad that women do the same...we men have our ways to hint "please
    be nice and baby me a bit", too...
    Guess it's the destructive force of time and routine. Oh well...
    ...Paul 
                                  

    RE:0
    
    Much of what the basenote is about, to me, is the concept of being
    self-nurturing, and is a way of honoring the self, and, although
    the rituals are not the same, it is not really a sex-linked activity.
    Men need to nurture themselves, as well, and also have a toiletry
    regime, as a way of taking care of themselves.
    
    -roger
    

    
    RE .15
    Maybe I "married" the wrong man too! ;-)
    
    What clues do you guys give out when you want to be extra-appreciated?
    I'd hate to think I was missing them....
    
    'gail

    
    Re: . 17 gail..
    
    Luckily, I never have to give clues as I'm never taken for granted.
    You see, by some strange twist of fate, my wife's friends are all
    married to extreme scumbag-type-husbands. By comparison, I come
    off looking like the "find of a lifetime".
    
    							Hank

    re .17
    
    What are the little cues?
    I can only talk for myself, but I know that in my case I tried to break
    up the nasty routine, I tried to get her involved in something that I
    really enjoyed.
    I know it made me sad when I noticed that, after we both came back from
    our daily occupations, we still seemed to belong to different worlds,
    automatically taking over our share of homework or each of us following
    his own "after-work-cool-out"-activity... oh yes, there was the
    mandatory "how was your day?" and so on, but still I felt distant. On
    some days, I tried to break it up, putting some classical music and
    taking an art-book, and asking her to sit with me on the sofa and join
    me, reading and talking. Or listening to the music, asking "isn't that
    one of you favourite tunes, too?", and asking her for a dance. Or just
    telling her to sit down with me and see some Disney-cartoons on TV.
    Basically, this was my way of signaling "I want you to be close to me
    NOW...", trying to build a bridge through sharing some esthetical
    experience (art, music) or just laughing together, by getting her
    involved into the things I urged to do at that moment.
    Unfortunately, quite often I got a "just a second, let me first make us
    a tea" or "first I've got to call so-and-so" or "I've got something in
    the oven", which just killed the atmosphere...it wasn't the same,
    afterwards. I felt second place. It's difficult to explain. 
    So in the end, maybe it's better to be more direct, just say "come here
    this second, I need you" and lay your head on her lap (or vice versa).
    Still, I'd like the woman of my dreams to pick up her cue when she
    sees that blink in my eye. It's just not the same to ask for something
    as to feel somebody is so close to you that he can ocassionally read
    some unspoken wish.
    
    re. what are we supposed to learn in here?
    
    I wonder why this note has created criticism, with the mandatory
    activist saying we're enforcing different roles in the genders and
    somebody saying that this is "just" about self-nurturing and thus
    shallow, or some man playing the sensitive soul saying that looks in 
    women don't count.
    First, we're not enforcing any type of different roles here, we're just
    exchanging experiences about how different individuals behave when in a
    specific mood. I personally find it interesting, and whoever doesn't is
    free to hit "next unseen" anytime. I don't know what the point is in
    trying to make people feel ashamed or guilty for entering a reply in
    here, it upsets me when somebody tries to set up an "intellectual
    standard" for every conversation that goes on around him, trying to
    suppress an exchange that maybe isn't highly intellectual, but still
    very enjoyable, hell. I'd trade a conversation about Etruscian culture
    for a discussion about personal notions that come straight from the
    guts anytime.
    As for the statement that "women don't have to look good", yeah, it
    sounds very sensitive and mindful, but most women seemingly know
    better, tell that to the cosmetic industry. Let's be honest, we men
    value the physical appearance damnably. An interesting personality of
    course is great and stimulating, but it has to come along in the right
    & appealing package, too.
    Sometimes I get the impression that here in MENNOTES we give a
    distorsioned picture of ourselves, trying to see who enters the most
    sensitive reply and negating each macho-part in ourselves. Heck, let's
    be a bit more honest, we have darker sides, too...and it's fun to talk
    about them!
    ...Paul
    

    Re: last
    
    Bulls-eye, Paul.  Thanks for the reality check.  I couldn't have put it
    better myself.
    
    LArry

    Paul:
    
    >I wonder why this note has created criticism, with the mandatory
    >activist saying we're enforcing different roles in the genders and
    >somebody saying that this is "just" about self-nurturing and thus
    >shallow, or some man playing the sensitive soul saying that looks in 
    >women don't count.   
    
    Maybe people are just being honest, Paul. I don't appreciate your
    attempt to manage this discussion, though, and to read into the
    motives of myself and others. Everyone has the right to say whatever
    they choose. That is the nature of an opinion file.
    
    -roger
    
    
                                                       

    re. 22
    
    I accept the criticism inasmuch as I was probably a bit on the harsh
    side in an attempt to be a bit provocative, sorry. Still, allow me to
    doubt your legitimacy as a spokesmen for a group of affected people,
    for you seem to be the only one who has taken offense on this. 
    And, on the other side, it was never ME trying to manage ANY
    discussion, it was others trying to suppress a discussion that they
    didn't perceive as intellectual enough or so.
    Of course everybody can contribute whatever he wants, and so do I.
    Really, I can't fathom how you come to the conclusion that I try to
    prevent other people from entering their notes. 
    But I can challenge the other's opinion anytime, that's what this file
    exists for, and you seem to mistake disagreement for personal grudge. 
    Regards, 
    ...Paul

    .23:
    
�    for you seem to be the only one who has taken offense on this. 
    
    FWIW, I also took offense, but I didn't have time to monitor a heated
    MENNOTES debate.  Since you insist...
    
�    I wonder why this note has created criticism, with the mandatory
�    activist saying we're enforcing different roles in the genders and

    And yours was the mandatory "if you don't agree with me, you're lying"
    note, I guess.

�    First, we're not enforcing any type of different roles here, we're just
�    exchanging experiences about how different individuals behave when in a
�    specific mood.

    If you only want one type of experience to be exchanged, you certainly
    ARE enforcing roles.

    Just because some of us don't like makeup and perfume in our mouths and
    don't like worrying about our eyes getting put out by big hair, and
    some of us get turned on by natural grace and decent conversation (and
    directness, as opposed to the mind-reading comes-when-you-blink woman
    of your dreams) doesn't mean we're hypocrites.  I'm as disgusting as
    the next guy - ask anyone - but tastes differ.  I don't understand
    yours either. 

    As for an overabundance of "sensitive replies", you must be reading a
    different MENNOTES. 

    Ray

RE .24

Wow.  How did you get those neat change bars into your note???


				--GerWhoJustStartedUsingHisVAXstation

    re: .25
    
    Try hitting the "Compose Character" key, then hitting the ">" key
    twice.  Of course, if your keyboard is broken like mine, you'll have to
    settle for >>.
    
       - Larry

    re. 24 

    Ray,

    let me first say that it's interesting that you took offense, because
    you hadn't entered anything in this topic before and therefore I can't
    fathom how you could possibly feel at all addressed...
    
    I really think you ought to read .20 a bit more carefully. You're
    proyecting into it stuff I neither wrote nor implied. Dissecting my
    replies doesn't impress me, for I see the tendency to take things out
    of context or to ommit a sentence that tones down a somewhat
    provocative statement.

    I never labelled anybody as a liar, please, if you read you will notice
    I said "SOMETIMES I get the impression...", which sounds like a
    relatively mild and safe way to state an OPINION to me. I perfectly
    accept other people's opinions, but, hell, I have the right to
    challenge them anytime as long as I don't attack anybody personally,
    which didn't happen at any point. Of course one meets always people
    that feel that disagreeing is disliking, and that a discussion is a
    quarrel.

    I simply took issue against headlines like
    >                    -< who are we doing this for? >
    >                -< What was hoped to be learned here? >-
    which, as you will agree, didn't contribute to the topic with any
    experience; more than that, THESE entries really represent attempts to
    suppress an exchange of experiences due to the inherent aggressivity
    they possess, trying to make the other noters feel like fools.

    And I never doubted that a captivating personality is the most
    attracting asset in every person, you ought to look up my entries in
    the "ogling" topic, where I felt like the only man that made the point
    about personality. I just FEEL that men are NOT being honest when they
    mumble stuff like "my wife is ALWAYS attracting, sexy and wonderful" or
    "physical appearance doesn't count". It would be beautiful, but, aw,
    c'mon, I have been married myself for 4 years, and by all objective
    accounts my (now separated) wife is a "10", and still I know I wasn't
    always the nice, caring and attentive man I should have been, it's just
    impossible and unrealistic, even though for a long time I was as much
    in love as the best man. Nature gave us men instincts that wither with
    an institution like marriage, no doubt it ennobles the man that puts up
    the strength, love and faithfulness to endure the bad times and reach
    fulfillment through it, but I don't see what the point is in denying
    each and every lower instinct we have. And as for "physical appearance
    doesn't count", again, it would be great, but that's really too much
    sweeping a statement, don't you think?... And, PLEASE, this is my
    OPINION, I feel that way, of course others don't, and of course they
    are free and welcome to note everywhere, I wouldn't and couldn't
    prevent anyone from entering his opinion, that reproach lacks any
    foundation.

    I get the impression that it's you disagreeing with MY opinion, and
    that you take on personal bashing like calling me dogmatic and
    intolerant in order to diminish the credibility of my entries. You
    don't know me, and you won't be able to buttress that attacks with my
    notes, either. I may be provocative at times, but I always respect the
    person sitting in front of the other terminal.

    I really think that reading someone's entries carefully and restricting
    one's answer to those points are a better base for a constructive
    discussion.
    
    Regards,

    ...Paul
    
    P.S.: My dusty Latin knowledge tells me you ought to review the
          grammatic part of your p-name. "Ad nauseam per asperi" would
          make more sense.

    re: .25 "How to get "�" on a VAXstation, you gotta hit and hold compose
    while you hit and release the space bar release the compose key and hit
    >> to get �.  similar for �
    
    Why, I dunno, but that's the way it is.
    
    ed

�    Why, I dunno, but that's the way it is.
    
    It's so they could redefine the Compose Character key as an Alt key for
    DECwindows.
    
    Ray

�        I simply took issue against headlines like
�    >                    -< who are we doing this for? >
�    >                -< What was hoped to be learned here? >-
    
    What are we to make of headlines like
                            -< You want knuckles? >-
    then?
    
    Ray

    re .30
    
    Aw, come one, that was a joke! I registered your "brew this!"-headline
    with a chuckle, too... let's not get that touchy!
    ...Paul

    Paul:
    
    My reaction to most of your replies in this note is that you are guilty
    of the exact act you accuse others of; projection. You read very far
    into the motives of the people writing here, and I know that you
    certainly don't read my replies carefully, as you request others to
    read yours.
    
    Here is an example of your projection, IMHO:
    
    >I simply took issue against headlines like
    >>                    -< who are we doing this for? >
    >>                -< What was hoped to be learned here? >-
    >which, as you will agree, didn't contribute to the topic with any
    >experience; more than that, THESE entries really represent attempts to
    >suppress an exchange of experiences due to the inherent aggressivity
    >they possess, trying to make the other noters feel like fools.    
    
    I don't see these questions as inherently aggressive at all; merely
    questions that seek to clarify the issues in this discussion. I
    think the judgement you read in these questions is YOUR projection
    rather than something that is really there.
    
    >I just FEEL that men are NOT being honest when they
    >mumble stuff like "my wife is ALWAYS attracting, sexy and wonderful" or
    >"physical appearance doesn't count".
    
    You have a right to your feelings, but don't be surprised by those who
    get angry when they are accused of dishonesty, because that is what
    you are doing. You are also discounting their opinions, which is 
    another way of making people angry.
    
    -roger
    
    
                                                            
             

    Re: .32
    
    I remember from a course I took a few years back that simply
    saying that you're talking about your feelings doesn't automatically
    guarantee you're safe.  Saying "I feel that you're a jerk" is no
    better than "You're a jerk."  They way it's supposed to be done is
    to say something like "When you do such-and-such then I feel hurt
    (or whatever...)".  Something that everyone should keep in mind.
    
    				Steve

    re. 32
    
    What I want to say with "I feel such and such" is that it is an
    individual perception that is not based on facts or so, therefore I am
    hinting that my argumentation is vulnerable at that point and that I
    certainly do not claim that it is a universal truth.
    To cut a long story short, I respect the way you feel about the
    subject, Roger, and you should respect mine.
    All you have to do is pointing me to a place where I said "you are a
    liar!", for that is what you are accusing me of. If you can do that,
    I'll point you to my former apology. If you don't, we should stop this
    discussion where we are seemingly both interpreting too much out of
    each other's notes.
    
    re. 33
    
    I think there is a big difference between saying "I feel that..." and
    "This and that ARE...". With the latter, you're talking about facts,
    you're supposed to be able to come up with some meaningful "pros" that
    buttress your position. When you say you "feel" something, you don't
    pay too much heed to facts, you talk straight from the guts. Left vs
    right brain hemisphere. 
    Anyway, I think it never gets us very far when discussions start
    circling about the right word-choice and not about the subject anymore.
    One should listen to the bottom-line of the other's argumentation, and
    not at an individual word that may be provocative or sarcastic and not
    meant at all to be offensive, I don't know how often I'll have to say
    this until it's believed.
    Of course, if you are acting as moderator and telling me that I was
    indeed offensive, I'd be more careful in the future, Steve. But I
    already apologized a couple of replies back, and I'm not one that
    starts whining for forgiveness. We're supposed to discuss in here, and
    not neccessarily to become intimate buddies, right?
    ...Paul

    So Paul,
    
    Just a question.  Were you speaking from the gut when you stated
    that some men were dishonest when they mumbled that their wives
    were always attractive (forgive the paraphrasing) or was this a
    statement of fact in YOUR experience?  If it is fact, what can 
    you show to support it other than your own reactions to spouse/
    so?
    
    RE: Steve and Roger-
    
    Very good points, gentlemen.  And as an aside, I have met men 
    who have made comments that they do believe their wives are 
    always beautiful and I personally always thought it was very
    sweet and suggested they call my fiance ;-)
    
    C

    in re .35
    
    but Christine you *are* beautiful!
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    You're terrific!
    
    Christine

    A phenomenon I've noticed over the years, is finding my head turning as
    an attractive woman goes by, then noticing that she looks a lot like my
    SO. Over the years, my SOs have had a wide range of appearences, so it
    is NOT a case of my always finding women of type X attractive. Rather,
    it's a tendency to see the grass greener on MY side of the fence. I
    always thought that was fortunate.
    
    I will always find my wife attractive, so long as she looks me in the
    eyes and smiles. She DOES have a great smile, but the important part is
    her repeated message that she loves me. With each toothy semaphore, my
    love for her is reinforced; I love the affirmation. Her shape has
    changed over the years, and I stand back and think "So THAT's the shape
    I love now!"
    
    - Hoyt

    Paul, I reread my note, and changed my mind. In reference to this
    quote:
    
    >I just FEEL that men are NOT being honest when they
    >mumble stuff like "my wife is ALWAYS attracting, sexy and wonderful" or
    >"physical appearance doesn't count".
    
    I realize that there is no FEELing here, really.
    
    This statement is a thought, not a feeling, and in that thought is a
    judgement about the honesty of others.
    
    There is a difference between the two.
    
    -roger
    
    
                                          

    It's none of my business, perhaps, and Dog knows I'm not a perfect
    noter, but *I* would appreciate it if we could all please stop all the
    kvetching in this conference. It seems to me that about twenty-five
    percent of the content is people giving each other a hard time about
    the way they said something. At every opportunity, someone has to point
    out to someone who perpetrates an opinion, that "that's just YOUR
    opinion." Surely we can all apply those sorts of analyses privately.
    Must we share them with the world?
    
    IMHO - Hoyt

    Hoyt:
    
    I just don't like it when someone attempts to put words in my mouth
    that aren't there, and I need to make that private analysis public.
    
    Otherwise, I don't care. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
    
    -roger
    

    Oh well, I give up, I've contributed with my OPINION, yes, my
    O-P-I-N-I-O-N to the topic, and answered to the question of the base
    noter as honestly as I personally could for myself, that is, for my own
    "being" as perceived by Schelling or my "pitiful, irrelevant
    existence", as Kierkagaard would say, unlinked from what you'd call
    "reality" or the "external world" with other people. I hope I've
    outlined the philosophical and intellectual context in which I
    articulated my irrelevant views on the subject. 
    
    It amazes me to see how easily the intellectual salto mortale of taking
    an "I disagree" for an offensive "you're a rotten liar" is made in
    here. It's funny you say "I don't like it when somebody puts words in
    my mouth...", Roger, for that's what you've been doing with me since we
    started this. I disagreed with you, but I never offended you calling
    you a liar. I've been asking for that quote long enough, and this is
    getting really tiresome now. Learn to live with different opinions
    without being offended, you're not blessed with the infallibility of
    the Pope, and neither am I. (the last statement was required to prevent
    you from getting ammunition for your usual argumentation line, which
    would go like: "He says that I am not infallible" -> "hmmm, he didn't
    mention if he is himself" -> "thus Paul is implying he is infallible
    and I am a backward fool" -> use various editing functions, the result
    can be witnessed quite often in this note-file.) 
    
    I totally agree with Hoyt, let's not adopt the picking of political
    debates in here. Look to what it leads: one topic, forty entries, and
    less than 50% of them contributing to the topic. Yawn. 
    
    I still believe in feeding the ego of my partner in a relationship by
    being caring, tender and flattering her at times and not just "assuming
    she knows". Every person needs praise, and the best praise still is the
    one you get from the person you love. My opinion.  
    
    Really, I find it comforting to see so many persons in here with ideal
    love nests in their homes, that always and only feel positive feelings
    of love and admiration towards their women, never discussing and never
    quarreling... and I thought TV-series were irrealistic. Uh, now I've
    learned about my short-comings as a partner, seemingly being the only
    lunatic idiot that discusses about stuff like "where the hell are MY
    new socks?", and then starts whining for forgiveness when finding them
    in my closet, where I hid them; guess my soul is a sure one to rot in
    hell. Blame it on my premise "one flash of temper, two hours of
    reconciliation"... 
    
    ...Paul 
    
    P.S.: Whoever continues saying that I called somebody a "liar" is
    qualifying for the term on his own behalf. I'd recommend an "extract
    [filename]/author=liesenberg 527.*", go and check, hell. 

    Re .38, as a woman whose shape has definitely changed over the years
    (does the term "down and out" convey my point? sigh) I think your
    message and attitude are great!  My parents share a love that doesn't
    seem to have "altered when it alteration" found, and I admire (and,
    yes, am somewhat envious of) those who are capable of such love.
    
    aq