Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I suspect they are probably correct.  In my experience, over many years
    in this business, *most* of my business dealings have been with men
    (though here in Bedford, I'd say the numbers are much more evenly
    balanced between sexes).  
    
    I grew up in a time when boys/young men were cultured to be
    somewhat aggressive and assertive, and girls/young women were to be
    less so, and there were somewhat clearly drawn lines guiding the
    relationship between men and women.  It seems a natural conclusion that
    when an aggressive man deals with another man, a greater degree of
    aggression occurs than when that same man deals with a woman.  
    
    And it naturally follows that a woman, reared to be polite and
    non-aggressive, would have developed better skills at avoiding
    confrontational situations.  
    
    I think these things are changing now...  and I'd not be suprized if,
    in 20 or 30 years the study mentioned in .0 came to a different
    conclusion.  (I'll be surprized if I'm around to see it, though! 8*)
    
    tony

    All Things Considered on National Public Radio recently did a series on
    Lincoln High School in Chicago. The focus of the series was on racism,
    but they did an additional "unexpected findings" report that the bulk
    of the violence *recently* has been among women. They interviewed a few
    who said they were cutting out of school early to avoid being beaten up
    (but they were still being beaten up). The report emphasized that this
    was new this year.
    
    Pretty disturbing: I'd hoped that blurring of gender roles would work
    in the reverse direction.
    
    - Hoyt

    very "ladylike" in my opinion... and something not to be proud of.

    
    	Do you think women should behave like ladies all the time?
    

>    very "ladylike" in my opinion... and something not to be proud of.


	No, not something to be proud of.

	But just what is "ladylike"?  Is it COOL for men to fight, but
	women should be prim and proper?


	If so, I'm going to be ill.  Fighting is not something to be
	proud of at all....REGARDLESS of your gender.


	kath

    .3  ::mahoney
    
    while I don't approve of young women (or young men for that matter)
    fighting in school, I think your choice of words to criticise the
    behavior i.e. 'ladylike' was rather odd.
    
    BJ

    BAIT ALERT!

    Al dear,
    
    no bait, just a wonderment
    
    'mom'

    Guilty Conscience Bonnie?  :-)

    nope, not in the slightest
    
    :-)

    
    
    Bonnie:
    
    I think I would go so far as to refer to the "ladylike" comment both
    sexist and condescending.
    
    And, unless the author of the note is from Chicago (are you?), that
    person probably has little, if any, knowledge of the deplorable
    conditions in the Chicago inner-city schools.  They are regarded as
    among the worst, if not the worst, big-city schools in the nation.
    	
    	Greg

    Are we then to infer that "gentlemanly" is an insult? If so, hasn't the
    language lost something? If I applied the term "ladylike" to someone, I
    would mean it as a pure compliment. I would mean that the person had
    good manners, was well-behaved, displayed adult and dignified demeanor,
    and so on. If the person was male, I'd call him gentlemanly. Surely it
    shouldn't be demeaning, to indicate that someone has these attributes.
    
    I wonder if "ladylike" is tainted by the expression "little lady" which
    I would opine *is* condescending. How about "lady of the house?" Should
    we more properly say "oldest resident female?" Should we abandon all
    English idiom which is older than (say) 1972 because it can be
    construed as offensive, if the insultee tries hard enough? Or should we
    get on with it, possibly reserving enough good will and energy to
    actually *do* something about (say) violence in the public schools.
    
    Actually, quibbling about language is much easier and tons more
    comfortable. Here:
    
        Too bad about those girls fighting in the public schools, huh?
                            ^^^^^
    Next!
    
    - Hoyt

>    If I applied the term "ladylike" to someone, I
>    would mean it as a pure compliment. I would mean that the person had
>    good manners, was well-behaved, displayed adult and dignified demeanor,
>    and so on. 

Exactly.  Define "ladylike" actions and then compare then to the 
actions of gentlemen.  Also, compare them to the actins required to be 
a successful corporate lawyer, for instance.  I think that you will 
find that restricting ones actions to "ladylike" behavior fosters 
inequality with men and disempowers women to be able to succeed in the 
business world.  

It's hampering in a way that "gentlemanly" isn't.


							--Ger