Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    Um....what's an acrophobic?
    I'm presuming it's someone who doesn't like heights??
    Or doesn't relish the idea of climbing to high places and then leaping
    down from them again??
    
    Anyway...
    I've done an "Outward Bound"-type teambuilding course.
    I believe that there are many different sorts around - some may include
    climbing/leaping down mountains, and some may not. Some might have this
    as an optional exercise, for on others it might be really necessary
    to the group completing an exercise.
    
    I would suggest that the sufferer contact the training company before
    they commit to going along - explain the situation, and ask if not
    participating in that particular exercise (*if* it's on the agenda)
    would cause any problems. On the course I attended it would not have
    been a problem at all. Really - I'm sure it won't be a big issue.
    
    Btw, out of the ten of us one guy decided not to abseil down a cliff.
    None of us had done it before. We were all terrified. Including me.
    But I chose to try it, the other guy didn't . Both our decisions were
    respected by the rest of the group.
    
    'gail                                                            
    
    

    Gail, yes an acrophobic is someone irrationally afraid of heights.
    
    Someone falling off a building SHOULD be afraid.  That is not
    acrophobia.
    
    Someone riding in a safe elevator and being terrified of falling is
    acrophobic.  Or someone looking out the window of a high building
    and being terrified of falling is experiencing acrophobia.
    
    I have heard it said to get over your fear DO the thing that your 
    afraid of. I am somewhat acrophobic.  This summer I made myself
    climb a high tower which was safe but didn't feel safe to me.  I
    was terrified... but I am still afraid of heights.  I didn't get
    over it, at least by doing it once I didn't get over it.
    
    So, if one accepts the premis that doing the thing you fear will help
    you get over it then an Outward Bound course which emphacised climbing
    might JUST BE appropriate.  I found the intellectually considering
    climbing the tower didn't bother me, climbing it did bother me.
    
    So lets say I decide to take the course because I 'should' then we get
    to the cliff and I refuse, to go over, (actually I think the group
    would have to throw me over) because I don't think I would willingly
    go over.  How does outward bound determine the line between appropriate
    forcing people to do things they are afraid of and causing real
    emotional harm to people by forcing a terrified person over the edge?
    
    Jeff
    
    
    

    Why don't you ask them?  They're much better qualified to answer your
    question than we are.
    
    					andrew

    
    Re -1
    
    I quite agree.
    
    I can't imagine that DEC would force anyone to attend any course that
    forced them to do something that terrified them against their will.
    Neither can I imagine that any reputable organisation would force
    this action on you.
    
    If you *want* to be forced because you think it might help you overcome
    this fear then that's different - my own view is that enforced action
    usually doesn't help. I tried "curing myself" of a phobia by that means
    and it was a horrible (and non-constructive, and embaressing) 
    experience.  
    
    Have you ever seen a counsellor/specialist/ whatever kind of expert
    deals with this kind of thing? If you so want to be rid of your fear of 
    heights, maybe it would be worth a discussion session so you can see 
    what "cures" are around....?
    
    'gail                                    

    I never ment to imply that either DEC or Outward Bound would force
    anyone to take a course that played on a phobia.
    
    I was referring to one inadvertently taking an Outward Bound course
    which turned out to have lets say a rock climbing component which one
    didn't think would be a problem, but when faced with rapelling down
    a cliff became quite obvious.  My questions pertain to how that would
    be handled in that context.  I know that OB tends to stress overcoming
    ones fear of things like that so it is logical that one would be urged
    to rappel down with group pressure urging on one.
    
    I don't get in situations where acrophobia is a problem as a rule. I 
    think rappeling down a cliff face would bring it out... but in every
    day life I just don't seem to get into situations which cause a
    problem.

    I am terribly afraid of heights. I'm the type of person that can't
    climb up a 3m ladder without a feeling of uneasiness constricting his
    guts, to put it mildly...
    But I love nature, and so I made a mountaneering course when I was 18
    or so. It was a terrifying experience. I know I wanted to get through
    it, but one day, when abseiling an 80m cliff, I was nearly
    paralysed. I know I went down somehow at snail's pace, and once I was
    down I noticed I hadn't secured myself properly, and the security man
    hadn't noticed it. It made me sick to think it could have been Paul
    performing a free fall if I'd made an error...
    That's why I can say that confrontation with your fear doesn't help at
    all in overcoming your phobia, on the contrary, since then it's even
    worse, and I won't ever try anything to combat it again. I can live
    with it, even though people always make jokes when we visit some old
    church and I walk up the stairs to the tower as if it'd be the 
    Matterhorn's east side... 
    In my old company, during a team-building weekend, I refused to rappel
    down a ridiculous 10m cliff somewhere in Wales. I couldn't even look
    down.
    As for the abseiling course, they told me it was no problem not to take
    part anymore, that it happened to quite some people during the courses.
    There was no money back guarantee, though!
    ...Paul  

    >I was referring to one inadvertently taking an Outward Bound course
    >which turned out to have lets say a rock climbing component which one
    >didn't think would be a problem, but when faced with rapelling down
    >a cliff became quite obvious.  My questions pertain to how that would
    >be handled in that context.  
    
    Ah - I understand better now.
    If at the time you feel that you *really* don't want to do this then
    just take one of the instructors aside and tell them. You won't be
    forced. That's what happened in my group anyway.....
    
    >I know that OB tends to stress overcomin ones fear of things like that 
    
    It does?
    If I'd known that I'd probably never have had the nerve to go along!
    Seriously....I didn't see anything that stated this as part of their
    philosophy of practice. I guess organisations may vary.
    
    > so it is logical that one would be urged to rappel down with group 
    >pressure urging on one.
    
    I must admit, I felt peer pressure urging me down that cliff.
    I could have chosen to ignore it.
    And I felt no pressure from the instructors - there would have been no
    problem or penalty had I decided not to go down.
    
    It's difficult to try and translate my own experience into
    generalities, and maybe this info doesn't give you a fair picture. As 
    someone suggested a few notes back - contact the organisation concerned.
    I'm sure they'll explain what they're about and what they expect from
    those who sign up for a course.
    
    'gail   
    

    In June of this past year, I had Outward do a 3 day program for DEC.
    Prior to anyone's attendence there is an extensive medical and
    psychological form that has to filled out by your doctor and therapist.
    The activities they offer are varied, from a complete 12-styep program
    with medical and psyshological help, wilderness training, team
    leadership and other exciting vacations.  I had 20 DECee's go with the
    complete understanding from DEC and Outward bound that their
    participation in the activities where of their option. We did encourage
    them to come along event not to participate but to watch to foster team
    building and group think.  It was great!
    
    I will tell you there was some apprehension on some ranging from:
    
    	- are there showers and toilets in Maine
    	- do we really camp out in the woods
    	- where do I plug in my hair dryer
    
    The results from team initiatives, team building, and roles course was
    amazing.
    
    I do agree that you should should give them a call and get there
    complete catalog of offerings.  
    
    Outward Bound
    P.O. Box 429
    Rockland, Me 04841
    (800) 341-1744

    Thanks, actually I HAVE attended Outward Bound in Vermont, in the Green
    Mountains (for a week) in the middle of a mid-winter blizzard cross
    country skiing backpacking.  It was somewhat tough, but a worth while
    experience.  My question basically regarded the ROCK CLIMBING aspect
    of Outward Bound.  I have been extensively involved in many camping
    boating activities similiar to O.B. but not the rock climbing aspect.
    Thanks for all the input.  
    
    Jeff

Two years ago, I found myself in exactly the situation you describe.  I was
on a six-week OB course in Oregon: two weeks of white-water rafting and
four weeks of hiking, including rock-climbing.  I, too, am acrophobic.
Prior to the trip, I did what others have suggested and called the school
to ask if I could decline this particular excersize.  They said that was
just fine.  The night before the rock-climbing outing, the instructors
took me aside and asked how I felt about doing it.  They'ld actually
remembered that I had expressed some concern -- I was impressed.  It
turned out that two other folks also feared heights and the instructors
reassured all of us (in private) that walking backwards off a cliff
was quite optional.  Turns out all three of us went through with it.
I was so scared that I really don't remember doing it, until I got
near the bottom where I could relax a bit and realize what I'd done.
My fear of heights did not dissappear but I did find, as the weeks
went on, that high-altitude activities (which are virtually
unavoidable in the Three Sisters Wilderness) caused me less and less
anticipatory anxiety--and the ground actually stopped moving (I get
vertigo) by the end of the trip (;-).

In summary, OB is an excellent, highly professional organization (IMO).
I'm sure they would be happy to discuss all aspects of the trip with
you, and would be willing to work with you to make your trip as safe,
enjoyable, and rewarding as possible.  And everything is confidential
if you want it to be (i.e., between you and the instructors).  Give
'em a call.

    My son attended the OB program in the White Mountains in NH this
    summer.  He did do the Rock Repelling but indicated that if you were
    not up to it people were not forced!  P.S. He had a great experience!