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Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Title:Topics Pertaining to Men
Notice:Archived V1 - Current file is QUARK::MENNOTES
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Fri Nov 07 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 26 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:867
Total number of notes:32923

450.0. "What is "masculine"?" by NITTY::DIERCKS (Jack Daniels, splash, hold the ice!) Wed May 02 1990 18:31

    
    
    During a discussion with a large number of my friends over some beers
    last night, we got into a rather heated debate regarding "masculinity". 
    You know, what traits are seen as inherently "masculine" and which
    aren't.  The group of people engaged in the discussion was diverse in
    nature:  gay and straight, young and old, men and women.  It was
    interesting to observe, during the discussion, that people had VERY
    different ideas as to their own interpretation of "masculine" depending
    on, especially, their age and the geographical area where they were
    raised.  
    
    What do you think?  Are there certain traits that "must" be exhibited
    for a man to be "masculine"?  Are their certain traits that absolutely
    shouldn't be exhibited to be "masculine"?  
    
    I have my own ideas :-), which I'll share here later, but I'm most
    interested in your comments/ideas.
    
    	Greg
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450.1SX4GTO::HOLTRobert Holt, ISVG WestWed May 02 1990 18:383
    
    No list of masculine attributes would be complete without
    burping, farting, and scratching oneself.. 
450.2SWAM3::ANDRIES_LAI swear to God I didn't do it ...Wed May 02 1990 20:4910
    The short answer is: the list of negative masculine traits one would
    find in your average mass-market magazine or general interest poll would
    most likely be the very traits my closest male friends and I consider
    desirable, or at least within the range of acceptable male behavior.
    Struggling against the riptide of ignorance will do that to you.
    
    The long answer is much trickier; much like tap dancing in a minefield. 
    I'll get back to you.
    
    Larry
450.3USIV02::BROWN_ROalmost Cinco de MayoFri May 04 1990 19:508
    Please do, Larry, as your answer is fairly cryptic. I'm not sure what
    you are referring to when you speak of negative traits per mass market
    magazine.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -roger
    
450.4SWAM3::ANDRIES_LAFairly Cryptic UniversityMon May 07 1990 15:3561
    Yipes, how to begin?
    
    It's my guess, *without* hard data to back me up, that a large number
    of Americans still hold true to an ideal of masculinity which dates back
    to the Eisenhower years ("me breadwinner, you housewife") or a reflection
    of manhood as depicted in mass media (pick your own macho icon).  Even
    though it's easier to find more progressive, or at least different,
    examples of masculinity, still, deep in the ROM part of our phyche (oh,
    what the hell -- MY psyche) is all that gender role conditioning.
    I used the vague phrase "mass market magazine poll" to describe one of
    the places where this kind of retrograde thinking can be found.
    
             LARRY'S THEORETICAL MASS MARKET MAGAZINE POLL
    
    Question: Which attributes must be exhibited to be considered
              masculine?
    
    
    - Always in control.
    - Agressive.
    - Loves sports (football, NOT gymnastics).
    - Earns more than the woman in his life.
    - In a constant state of sexual readiness.
    - Always in control.
    - Never cries (if you really have to, then always alone).
    - Embraces other men ONLY on the playing field or the battlefield.
    - Might makes right.
    - Proud of his bodily secretions (.1 nailed that correctly).
    - Always in control.
    - Always in control.
    - And so on ...
    
    Question: What attributes absolutely should not be exhibited to be
    considered masculine?
    
    - Reverse all of the above and add:
    - Apologizing.
    - Not owning a car past the age of 21.
    - Understanding, let alone enjoying, opera.
    - Having more treble than bass in your voice.
    - Showing distaste for sexist, racist or homophobic humor.
    - Being unemployed for any reason.
    - And so it goes ...
    
    I wrote the above with the same lack of insight and complexity I think
    you'd find in PeopleRedbookReadersDigest.  Comical perhaps, but what
    isn't so funny is that I can easily click off the names of dozens people
    I know who wouldn't disagree with the list above.  The rules have
    changed so much and so frequently in my 32 years on this planet that my
    friends and I (young/old, gay/straight, men/women, Dem./Rep.) can't keep
    up with them.  And so we don't try.  What I try, with varying degrees
    of success, is to integrate what I consider to be the most nuturing and 
    most assertive abbributes into my live and do the best I can.  It's
    much harder than applying a checklist to each male I encounter (and
    playing the unspoken "Do I Measure Up" game) but do sure makes life
    much more interesting and rewarding.  Confuses the hell out of my
    parents but who said file-altering change can't be entertaining, too.
    
    Allbest,
    
    Larry  
450.5NITTY::DIERCKSJack Daniels, splash, hold the ice!Tue May 15 1990 14:4133
    
    
    I've been away for a couple of weeks, and though I was hoping for more
    replies to this note, I'm pleased to have found the following
    statements made:
    
    
    >>The rules have changed so much and so frequently in my 32 years on this
    >>planet that my friends and I (young/old, gay/straight, men/women,
    >Dem./Rep.) can't keep up with them.  And so we don't try.
    
    	Boy, that's a mouthful.  When I stop and think about how society's
    "view" of masculinity has changed from the time my parents were growing
    up to when I was growing up to now, it's pretty amazing.  Behaviors
    which are relatively common place now (helping around the house,
    assisting with children, to name two) were much less common 40, or even
    15 years ago.  A person who insisted (or allowed themselve) to be stuck
    in their own or someone else's mould of "this is what how you have to
    behave to be seen as masculine" would probably end up with a schizoid
    view of themselves and the world in general.
    
    
    >>What I try, with varying degrees of success, is to integrate what I
    >>consider to be the most nuturing and  most assertive attributes into my
    >>live and do the best I can.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
               |||||||||||||||||
    
    	That's all anyone can ask, and, hopefully, we all continue to get
    better as we mature and gain more experience.
    
    GJD
    	
450.6Macho?DISCVR::GILMANTue May 15 1990 17:088
    Let me refer you to the Parenting Notesfile... "Are boys different from
    girls". You will find a rather heated discussion there which seems to
    indicate that any "differences" (other than physical) between boys and
    girls are culturally induced differences and no INATE differences 
    exist.... other than the differences between individuals with
    gender disregarded.  According to that string any masculine traits are
    strictly culturally induced. Therefore any "Macho Man" has been
    successfully inculcated as to his role.