Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Perhaps many of us (the older ones at least) were brought up in a
    "traditional" household.  Ie, dad goes to work, mum may work outside
    the house but still did all the "woman's" work.  The guys that have
    grown up with this would have established an uncocious pattern of
    acceptance of the status quo.
    
    When moving away from home to set up anew, there would be a tremendous
    amount of inertia to prevent change from taking place.  Maybe this is
    why your boyfriend fell back so quickly into the old habits without
    even realising it.  It takes concious effort to change, and some
    positive feedback and encouragement (often missing because we (men)
    should be doing our share anyway - right).
    
    If posive reinforcement is not there, or worse negative feedback is
    (Why can't youy iron shirts properly, it's easy?) it's easy to give up.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    
    Bob

    Often, we not only fall into a trap, we set one, knowing/unknowing it.
    
    Be it what it may...........SHARE the load, one way or the outher.
    
    Tis only FAIR.
                            Dan

    Sounds like your boyfriend had a mom that did all these things for him,
    and he equated being taken care of, with caring.
    
    I've had two major live-together relationships where the WAY I cleaned
    or washed, and WHAT I cleaned or washed was the cause of major
    domestic battles. Being a man, I couldn't be expected to know the right
    way to clean something. The problem is that everyone has different
    standards, and different expectations, in this area, and they need to
    be examined, and compromises must be struck. There is more than one
    right way to do these things.
    
    These two women, by the way, would certainly not agree with each other
    on the way to do domestic chores.
    
    -roger
    

    
    Thanks to all of you for replying.
    
    
    We both have learned many things since this situation has come about.
    
    Mainly, that we both have different views on what is "clean".  That
    for me is a major problem, but it is my problem.  When I was brought
    up mom had a saying "if it can shine, it will shine".  So it is
    difficult at times accepting what he thinks is clean vs what I think
    is clean.  But we are working together to come to a "common" definition
    of clean.  
    
    I also realize that I am up against his way of life.  He was raised in
    a house where mom took care of him and he basically did not do any
    type of domestic chores.  But when he left home he had to do all of
    his own domestic chores.  That was where one of the problems came
    into play.  I knew he knew how to do the chores, but couldnt figure
    out why he wouldnt.  Of course it is much easier to have someone
    else do things if that person is willing to do so.
    
    
    Re this issue of caring vs. being taken care of.
    
    Thanks for the input.  I now have a better understanding of men's
    percepetions of "care".  It certainly will help me understand his
    equating being taken care of with caring about him.
    
    Thanks

    ............ Being a man, I couldn't be expected to know the right
    way to clean something. ...................

    -roger,

    This puzzles me.  I don't understand what gender has to do with 
    knowing whether something is the right or wrong way.  Could you
    take the time to explain how this comes about?

    Please and thank you.

    justme....jacqui
    

    re .5 [re .3]:
    
    Seemed odd to me, too.
    
    - M

    
    Re .5, .6 (re .3):
    
        I can't speak for Roger, but his comments made perfect sense
    to me.   
    
        Some things I learned from my own domestic situation:  Did you
    know that if you load a dishwasher front-to-back, that's the wrong
    way to do it?  The right way is to load it from the back first,
    and work your way up to the front.  And when cleaning, you have
    to dust first and THEN vacuum, never vacuum first and then dust.
    (the logic behind this one has something to do with not getting
    the dust from furniture onto a freshly vacuumed rug).  And if you
    put leftovers away in the refrigerator,  the correct covering is
    ALWAYS clear plastic wrap, NEVER aluminum foil.  And glasses must
    ALWAYS be put away upside-down in the cabinets.  And so on and so
    on - I could give you dozens of examples of the "right" way to
    iron shirts, fold towels, wash floors, store food in the freezer,
    etc. from various women I've dealt with, many of them contradictory.
    (My current SO says that you have to vacuum first and then dust,
    because the vacuum cleaner kicks up a lot of dust that then has
    to be dusted off the furniture).
    
    Without going into generalizations, I can make some of my own
    observations:  I'm fairly easy-going about the way I do domestic
    chores, but the women I've been involved with generally were not,
    and their attitude was one of "this is the way Mom taught me to
    do housework, so it's the right way - yours is wrong" (see .4);
    I've had to try very hard to keep from getting into the "if you're
    the only one who knows how to do this right, then do it yourself"
    trap; and in situations where I've gotten involved with major
    quarrels over domestic chores, there was generally something much
    more serious wrong with the relationship, and the fighting over
    chores (who does them, or how) arose because we really just wanted
    to fight with each other, and housework provided a convenient
    vehicle for venting frustration and irritation with each other.

    At the risk of really getting scourched on this one, I will
    nevertheless enter my 2 cents on why I (and other men too) have a hard
    time with "housework."
    
    First, I have heard it told that women see their domiciles (houses or
    apartments) as extensions of themselves, as a reflection on their
    personhood.  I have asked me wife if that is true and so says she.  Men
    perhaps do not hold such a thing.  I know I don't.  My house is where I
    eat, sleep, relax, etc.  It is not an extension of myself.  My view of
    housework is that it is a necessary evil.  As for maintaining the
    house, clean is good enough for me, spic and span is definitely out -
    takes too much time when I would rather be doing other things.
    
    Recently my wife took a trip and I became a "single parent" for my
    large family (8 kids). I learned how difficult it is to hold down a job
    and take care of a family also.  During the three weeks, I streamlined
    everything from shopping, to cleaning (close off rooms you never use),
    to decorating (take down all those wall hangings, gee gaws, pictures,
    figurines 'cuz they need dusting).  My considerations were: Are we
    eating right, do we have clean clothes, is the house environmentally
    safe? If yes, then we were alright.  Forget all the rest, like do the
    towels match, do the curtains need cleaning, should I rearrange
    furniture and knick knacks.
    
    I admit that I am one of those men who was raised in the European
    style where "males do men work and women do women's work".  Never made
    a bed until I got married!  So, yes I certainly had to re think the
    division of labor.  However, my wife is a full time mother and home
    maker, so for the most part she has her work and I have mine. My
    question though is as women now ask men to share in the house work, do
    men ask women to share in their  work requirements/activities?  Do
    women today feel that they should also be responsible for car
    maintenance and repairs, cutting grass, removing trees and shrubs,
    fertilizing lawns, taking out a wall, putting in or fixing plumbing and
    electrical stuff, going to the dump, coaching a team, doing scout
    things, etc.?  Are women today expecting men to pick up their share of
    what was previously called "woman's work", yet quite content to let the
    men continue doing the "men's work"?  In my household my wife also does
    her share of "men's work".
    
    I am willing to learn in this are, so would appreciate other opinions.
     

>    
    I admit that I am one of those men who was raised in the European
    style where "males do men work and women do women's work".  Never made
    a bed until I got married!  So, yes I certainly had to re think the
    division of labor.  However, my wife is a full time mother and home
    maker, so for the most part she has her work and I have mine. My
    question though is as women now ask men to share in the house work, do
    men ask women to share in their  work requirements/activities?  Do
    women today feel that they should also be responsible for car
    maintenance and repairs, cutting grass, removing trees and shrubs,
    fertilizing lawns, taking out a wall, putting in or fixing plumbing and
    electrical stuff, going to the dump, coaching a team, doing scout
    things, etc.?  Are women today expecting men to pick up their share of
    what was previously called "woman's work", yet quite content to let the
    men continue doing the "men's work"?  In my household my wife also does
    her share of "men's work".
 >   
  

    I must say that mowing the lawn, taking the trash out, etc.... do not
    have the exclusivity (???word???) of being genderized.  I have seen 
    these types of work done for close to half a century by both males and
    females equally.  Neither gender has the handle on what is the "right"
    or "only" way of doing these tasks.  I have had the opportunity myself
    of participating in many of these tasks....guess what?  They get done
    without the world falling apart because the "wrong" gender just happened
    to be the one doing them!!!

    My question remains.....why is the gender of the person doing the task
    the basis for deliniately whether the task gets done in the "right"
    manner or the "wrong" manner?  Isn't it more important that the task
    get done if it really needs to be done???

    justme....jacqui     

    Great examples in .7!
    
    >         <<< Note 448.5 by JURAN::GARDNER "justme....jacqui" >>>
    >>           -< puzzled and confused, need enlightenment.... >-

    >>............ Being a man, I couldn't be expected to know the right
    >>way to clean something. ...................

    >>-roger,

    >This puzzles me.  I don't understand what gender has to do with 
    >knowing whether something is the right or wrong way.  Could you
    >take the time to explain how this comes about?
    
    It doesn't, Jacki. This was the attitude that I encountered in both
    of these women, was that my opinion was to be disregarded because I was
    male, and men don't know about these housework things. This is their
    bias, not mine.
    
    There is no right way. There is only what is comfortable for the
    individuals involved.
    
    With my current girlfriend, it came from her grandmother, that this is
    the way one should "keep house", and that there were no excuses not 
    to do it. This method of keeping house was only practical if you didn't
    work outside the home, because to do the job right involved enormous
    amounts of labor.
    
    
    I come from a very casual household in regards to things being neat
    and tidy; as long as things were clean in a very general sort of way,
    that was o.k.
    
    -roger
    
    
                                                                              

    	I think that the reply stating that the home is a reflection
    or extension of the female head of the domicile is a pretty accurate
    one.
    
    	I've been married to the same woman for 16 years. We've always
    been pretty good about the sharing of duties. For a few years she
    never did a load of laundry. Every Wednesday I'd get $10 in quarters
    and pick up 5-6 baskets (she had separated) of dirty clothes and
    head out to the 'mat. I'd wash, dry, fold, and hang everything and
    return home where a meal awaited me. My wife ran a daycare (8 kids)
    in our house so she was not just a homemaker. I always did any repairs
    to plumbing and electrical stuff, autos, and I did the general home
    and yard maint. This still holds true today. Now she has a position
    as an ass't manager at Shaw's. We share much of the housework. I
    don't do wallpapering (I go to the movies), I don't do decorating.
    
    BUT......we know when to help each other. Even if it's only to steady
    the ladder or get a towel.
    
    Ken
    
    BTW....She does all work on the house that has to be done on the
    roof or from a ladder at a height greater than 12'.  8^)Acrophobic(^8
    

I has always seen my parents  working together and sharing the house work.	
They wanted that we could do everything in the house. So I can do everything
except knitting.
It was very useful to be able to manage the complete home work when I lived
alone.
Now I am living with my wife, we share everything, both are working outside
and the house work is done depending of the time we have.
I know that she would not accept doing everything in the house.
And when she hears her friends who complain because they are doing everything, 
she always answer :
"You have got the man "boyfriend" you deserve"
I think she is right.
When you accept a situation at the beginning, then you don't have to complain 
afterwards.
I think that if everything must be clear when the couple start to live together.

It was so with my parents, it is so for me now, and I think everything is OK.

I know a lot of young couple in FRANCE who are living as we do.
Are the US men more machist than the french one?

THIERRY 

    I have a poem for everyone to read entitled "Patterns" taken from a
    book entitled "Is This Where I Was Going?" by Natasha Josefowitz.
    
    				Patterns
    
    Instead of minimizing our differences,
    let us maximize them
    Instead of denying that you are better at this
    and I am better at that,
    let us take full advantage of our special skills
    and recognize the weaknesses
    in order either to work on them
    or to turn to what we do best
    It is OK with me
    that most men have better spatial skills
    and that most women are better at verbal skills
    I can accept that most men are more concerned with
    objects
    and most women with people
    That boys excel at gross motor coordination
    and girls at manual dexterity
    That males are good at problem-solving
    and females process information faster
    I like our differences!
    As you shovel the driveway
    I fix you hot soup
    As you drive at night
    I keep you awake
    As you carry the suitcases
    I check in at the counter
    You figure our taxes
    I decide on our budget
    You vacuum
    I dust
    You turn the mattress over
    I water the plants
    You chop the onions
    I add the spices
    You go marketing ...
    but with my shopping list
    You buy me books
    I buy you ties
    You know how to cure the ills of the world
    I know how to cure your ills
    Yu know what the children ought to do
    I know how they are
    Yu know about driving in the snow
    I know you should wear a scarf
    You show me how much you love me
    I tell it to you
    I could  not do well what you do so well
    nor could you do what I do
    I like me as me
    and you as you.
    

    re: .13
    
    my first response is that it sounds like the generic standard-issue
    cookie-cutter american family....how does that maximize the differences
    if people don't want to do the things in their presupposed pattern? 
    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good poem, it may not be provoking
    my thoughts in the direction you intended, though....
    
    -Jody
    

	Jody, that was my first reaction too.  While the concept of
	"maximizing differences" may be good in principle, I felt
	that this poem sought to do that through the application
	of traditional stereotypes.  Frankly, I was disappointed.

	The following lines bothered me most... not only are several
	stereotypes recounted as fact, but the author starts the
	phrase with "it is OK with me".  To me, the fact that the
	stereotypes are OK with her is less meaningful than if she
	had simply recanted the differences between 2 people on a
	personal level: you're better at fixing cars, and I'm better
	at electrical wiring; I'm faster at changing the cat litter,
	but you make better waffles  (for example)... and said THAT
	was OK with her.

>	    It is OK with me
>	    that most men have better spatial skills
>	    and that most women are better at verbal skills
>	    I can accept that most men are more concerned with
>	    objects
>	    and most women with people
>	    That boys excel at gross motor coordination
>	    and girls at manual dexterity
>	    That males are good at problem-solving
>	    and females process information faster

	"But," you may say, "that's *not* how she divides things!
	He does the shopping!  She does the budget!"  Okay.  But
	the line right after the ones I just quoted is

>	    I like our differences!

	To me, this implies that she is drawing parallels to the
	platitudes she cited.  And I see no direct contradictions
	in the division of labor she describes.

	So what if "most men have better spatial skills"???  What does 
	that have to do with _our_ differences on a two-by-two basis?

	Nothing, that's what.  Does "maximizing differences" for mutual 
	advantage really mean dividing labor by highlighting perceived 
	gender differences across society, or does it mean taking 
	stock of individual strengths and dividing tasks accordingly?

	That's a rhetorical question, of course ;-).

	    Sharon
	

�             <<< Note 448.15 by COBWEB::SWALKER "Sharon Walker" >>>
�                      -< stereotypes are not "OK by me". >-
    
    It is OK with me
    that you wrote my intended reply
    better than I would have written it.
    
    (: >,)
    Ray

    this talk of men's role, woman's role, reminds me of an incident
    that happened to me. A while ago the radiator hose on my car split.
    I was only about a mile from my house. I assessed the damage and
    decided to walk to the shopping plaza, bought electrical tape and
    anti-freeze, patched the hose, refilled the anti freeze and continued
    on to my SO's house. Upon arriving in his driveway the patch gave
    way. I was please with myself that I was able to make the temporary
    fix. When I told Mike about the situation he started in that *he'd*
    call around to the auto shops the next day and that he'd fix it
    for me. I was some what taken aback because at first it sounded
    like he felt he had to fix it for me. I didn't get on his case I just
    said, "that's OK I can take care of it" , "oh, I know that" he said,
    "I want to do it for you" (he missed the days he used to work on cars in
    the yard). I said in a firm but light hearted voice "OK you can fix
    my car, as long as you know I could too!"  Compromises 8^)  

    Gail

    re. those of you who thing .13 is too stereotypial -- I don't see any
    mention in the poem of the gender of the "you" or of the "me."  Yet at
    least two readers have presumed the "you" is male and the "me" is
    female.
    
    Try reading it with you presupposed gender roles switched.  Do you
    still have difficulty with it?
    
    Karen

    	re .18

    	Good point, but I'd have to say that it is at least "clearly
    	implicit" that "you" is the male and "I" is the female.  The
    	beginning of the poem directly distinguishes between male
    	and female.  The first line of each comparison is always a male 
    	trait, and the second is female.

    	Then the "You"s and "I"s follow, with the stereotypical male
    	feature always preceding the stereotypical female trait.
    
    	An interesting exercise nonetheless.
    
    	Joe Oppelt