Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    sherry,
    
    anyone gets angry when their monetary intake gets threatended if 
    they don't 'own' the source of the 'threat' as part of their
    'family'
    
    So Don and I could happily support our kids in college for 20,000 a
    year, because we agree they are family, adpoted or birth, but your 
    ex husband appears to put his daugher second to his own current life
    and is not willing to support her at a level that is reasonable for her
    age. Unfortunately she can't nag him directly as my teenager daughters
    do their father.
    
    I'd strongly suggest having her live with him as the primary custodial
    parent, and let her call you  and let him buy her clothes and you
    send him child care for a year..
    
    we let our daugher live away form home for a long period of time and
    she came back sitll loving us and still our daughter so it can work
    
    (send me mail if you want details(
    
    other than that, before there were phones people wrote letters...
    
    tell your daughter that she can have x amount of time on the phone
    talk to her dad..and set a buzzer..
    
    when her time is up, the �phone gets hung up ...if she goes over
    she earns the extra tiem
    
    and other than that, encourage her to write to him and he to her.��
    
    mail is often times better than phone.
    
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie��

    
    being divorced i'll give my 2 pennies worth.
    
    i think when ever a divorced father hears that his support is going to
    go up they get upset and right away think the ex is spending to much.
    i have the oppisite problem i live about a half a mile from my son
    and he is 13 going on 20.
    yesterday he wanted newe sneakers so he just happen to be at my
    house for supper when he mentioned it now in the past if he wanted
    something the parent he was with would just buy it and not worry well
    the sneakers cost $130.
    he made the school baseball team he stays with me on weekends and
    thats everyweekend for 10 years anyway when i dropped himoff he
    asked if he could get a new glove $85 and new batting gloves $16 each
    now my support is only $35 weekly.
    i would love to have this drop down to $150 month but not being able to
    see him all the time would kill me not to ramble on but
    he probaly looks at the amount of time he spends with her and it is
    being alot less and costing him more as there is going to be a time
    in a couple of years that phil isn't going to want to come with
    me on weekends anymore or not as often and i'm sure i'll feel as
    though i'm paying to much in support
    
    at least he pays you from waht i hear there are alot of guys who don't
    
    
    

.0>    him about the formula.  He was immediately angry, defensive, and
.0>    offensive.  He said I could take him to court but I would be VERY
.0>    sorry.  Our relationship would forever be adversarial.  I told him
.0>    not to threaten me and reminded him that the judge said this could
.0>    be readressed if the situation changed, which it did.


    Lets see if I heard what you said:

    	- You are a full-time single parent with no parenting relief
    	  except for maybe an occasional school vacation period, at which
    	  time you are expected to pick up cost of the travel to and from.

    	- You are paying for full support of this child, to include
          housing, clothing, heat, food, medical, and the EX is
    	  contributing a token amount.

    	- The EX is not calling his daughter on a regular basis, and when
          your daughter does indeed talk to her father, you foot the bill.

    	- The EX is now living a new life of "love", and can't be bothered
    	  with being a father much anymore.

    	- The EX pays you whenever he feels good and ready, with no
          regular payments.

        - The EX has threatened you with your relationship becoming
    	  adversarial if you attempt to get a fair share to help in raising
    	  his child by you. 

    Seems to me that the relationship is already adversarial...  Can you
    say spineless sap? I knew you could...

    I'd take him back to court and quickly!...  Seems to me that once again
    the woman is being overtaken by the man, and that again because a woman
    tends to not be assertive, the man is taking advantage of the situation.

    Take the sucker to court fast!...  You will have nothing but trouble
    from him, his andecedants are already setting a precedence.

    If you feel like the $270 a month is too much, then decide what you
    think is correct (I am entitled to over $X a month but I choose to
    except half of that), and what you can live with in your own
    conscience.  Then hire a lawyer, and have his paycheck garnished, and 
    pick up your life from there.

 You are not being too rough on him. His primary responsibility is to his
child, not his new wife. 

 I think $150/mo is a steal for him. He's out of his mind if he thinks you
couldn't get much, much more. 

 The next time he tells you that a trip to court will "forever make our
relationship adversarial," tell him that he can avoid that problem by accepting
his responsibilities and paying his fair share.

 The Doctah

    
    
    
    
     Flame on
     ^^^^^^^^
    "In absence of his presence, his money is symbolic of his concern."
    
    Sorry, but this statement really annoys the hell out of me.
    My boyfriend's ex pulls a similar line on him all the time.
    This in my opinion is pure bull!!  How can one equate the love
    for a child with money?  It simply boggles my mind.
    
    
    Flame off
    ^^^^^^^^^
    
    I think you have every right in the world to ask him for more support
    if it is warranted.  $100 a month is what one would pay if they
    were unemployed as that is the amount support is reduced (at least
    I am told this is the case in Mass).  Of course he is going to
    be upset that he is going to have to pay more.  My boyfriend still
    has a problem with paying support because he does not have his
    daughter living with him, yet he still pays it.  Any increase though
    is going to severely hurt him financially.
    
    But I think you are being very fair in asking for more support since
    50/week is not enough to support a 14 year old child.  
    
    Michele
    
    

    
    150/month is chickenfeed...
    
    He should pay up (and maybe even feel a bit guilty about paying 
    so little)..

    
 re: 1>	If the Minnesota formula is similar, and if it's supposed to be a
    rough estimate of what the non-custodial parent should be paying, I
    think you were very lenient.

	I don't know what the formula is here, but the standard of living
	and TAXES are very high compared to Colorado.  A friend told me that
	child support is higher here.

 re: 2> Unfortunately she can't nag him directly as my teenager daughters
    do their father.  I'd strongly suggest having her live with him as the 
    primary custodial parent, and let her call you  and let him buy her 
    clothes and you send him child care for a year..

	I asked him "what would *you* need if you had custody?", and it
	never occurred to him.  I don't think he wants custody because it
	would be too much responsibility.  But believe me, I've thought
	about it.  I am going to suggest she stay at least a month this
	summer.  I put her on the plane yesterday morning for Denver for
	10 days with her dad.  Now he'll have a chance to get "nagged"
	directly.  I urged her to discuss issues with him, such as phone
	calls, and summer vacation.  I will suggest that they start
	writing letters.    

re: 4>
	- You are a full-time single parent with no parenting relief
    	  except for maybe an occasional school vacation period, at which
    	  time you are expected to pick up cost of the travel to and from.

		I will pay for 1/2 of the travel.

    	- You are paying for full support of this child, to include
          housing, clothing, heat, food, medical, and the EX is
    	  contributing a token amount.

		true

    	- The EX is not calling his daughter on a regular basis, and when
          your daughter does indeed talk to her father, you foot the bill.

		true

    	- The EX is now living a new life of "love", and can't be bothered
    	  with being a father much anymore.

		sigh....

    	- The EX pays you whenever he feels good and ready, with no
          regular payments.

		true

        - The EX has threatened you with your relationship becoming
    	  adversarial if you attempt to get a fair share to help in raising
    	  his child by you. 

		true

	Seems to me that the relationship is already adversarial...  Can you
	say spineless sap? I knew you could...

		Spineless sap.  ;^)

		Regarding going back to court... I'm not sure if I would
		have to do that in Colorado or Minnesota.  He would ofcourse
		raise the issue of me moving out of state, which we have no
		written agreement on, only verbal.  Even the discussion of
		child support is verbal.

    
>     Flame on
>     ^^^^^^^^
>    "In absence of his presence, his money is symbolic of his concern."
    
>    Sorry, but this statement really annoys the hell out of me.
>    My boyfriend's ex pulls a similar line on him all the time.
>    This in my opinion is pure bull!!  How can one equate the love
>    for a child with money?  It simply boggles my mind.
    
>    Flame off
>    ^^^^^^^^^

	This is probably the hardest part of this issue for me.      
	I've seen ex-spouses on both sides of this issue.  Men who
	are paying big bucks for many years, seriously hampering their
	lifestyles, yet they do it because they care about their kids.
	And women who need the money desparately.  And women who want as
	much as they can get, just to screw the ex.  And the motives
	behind screwing the ex have to do with having all the responsibility
	to raise the child, be mother and father, to walk the fine line
	of disapproval over the lack of contact.  Fighting over how to
	raise the kid when  he has no idea of what her day to day life is
	like.

	These frustrations come from both sides.  How I'd love to hear him
	ask, "Could Tina stay with me the whole summer?"  or "Could Tina
	live with me next year?"   But it will never happen.  Lots of fathers
	would like to have their kids...or say they would, but the responsibility
	is enormous.

	He will never geel guilty about the chickenfeed he's paying (sorry
	Bob)...

	I don't want to create a war over money when the issue is about
	responsibility.  And I *don't* know how to sort thru the feelings
	of frustration and anger I'm  having over his lack of interest
	in being her parent.

	Another thing.  As we were waiting for the plane, I asked Tina
	how it felt to go see her dad.  She said she wasn't really feeling
	anything...kind of numb...She wasn't really excited about it, and
	maybe even apprehensive.  (He got married after we left for Minn.
	and didn't tell her for 3 weeks afterwards).  I can only hope she'll
	come back to me glad that she went.  I can only hope that he will
	pay attention to her, and give her quality time.

	I have a friend who is going thru the custody battles right now
	and the bargaining chip is whether he can have his youngest daughter
	for 7 OR 8 weeks this summer.  I wish so much that my ex would feel
	just a little bit interested...

	sigh...

		Sherry

    
    
    Sherry,
    
    Unfortunately there is little you can do to get him to take a stronger
    interest in your daughter.  I think that your daughter really is the
    one to make that judgement though.  If she feels as you do then maybe
    she could express those feelings to him.  Maybe if she told him
    that it really does hurt not to have him take an interest.  Sure
    he is caught up in his new life, but that can not be used as 
    an excuse by either party.  
    
    If he truly has no interest in seeing his daughter then maybe she
    should make a decision as to whether or not she wants to see him.
    However, if she decides she no longer wants to see him that does
    not give him the opportunity to stop paying support.  I think you
    should talk with a lawyer and find out what you need to do to
    have the support payments made legal.  He does have an obligation
    to his daughter to help support her. That he can not get away from.
    He can unfortunately get away from his obligation of providing
    her support only a father can give.  
    
    Re my comment on equating love with money.  I hope you did not
    take that as a personal attack on your statement.  I did not intend
    it that way.  That area is a very emotional one for me know because
    my boyfriend's ex is constantly using that line on him.  He pays
    her support on time, but she constantly wants more.  She also wants
    more money and less visitation time.  It really bothers me that some
    parents only see the obligation of being a parent as finacial.
    You are struggling with the other side of being a parent, the emotional
    support.  I guess what I really don't understand is how any parent
    can only be willing to be responsible for one facet of support
    and totally ignore the other.  This is not to say that you are
    doing that as you have clearly stated your frustration at your
    ex's inability to be emotionally responsible for your daughter.
    
    I hope she has a good time with her Dad.  Also hope you enjoy
    your time alone.  You deserve a break!!
    
    Good luck,
    Michele

    Michele,
    
    No, I didn't take it personally...  in fact, I agree with your
    boyfriend (and you) on the subject, which is the real reason why
    I put the note in.  I just couldn't resolve this internal conflict
    except by expressing it and asking for advise.
    
    A comment on Notes...  over 2 years ago I started noting in this
    conference and others.  I was getting separated and needed friends
    desparately.  Many people were there for me then.  I back again,
    reading more than writing, but writing much more than I have for
    the past year.  It feels really nice to know there is a community
    of caring people who are there if I need them.  My divorce was
    tramatic enough, but I can honestly say that I have suffered more
    from the changes in this relocation than ever before in my life.
    
    Thanks to all of you for being there!
    
    Hugs...Sherry

    Sherry, I just started reading this file therefore my response to
    your question is a little late. However, as a child-support paying
    father, $150/mo is certainly not too much. When I first got divorced,
    I had to pay $200/week for two children. It is now down to $325/mo
    because one of the children now lives with me and their combined
    family income is now greater than mine. Therefore, from a pure monetary
    perspective, $37.50/week is ridiculously low!
    
    When an ex-spouse asks for more more, actually any money at all,
    the natural reaction is to be resentful, angry, defensive, etc.
    There are more factors at play here other than pure money. Just
    the intrusion of one's ex in your new life is threatening. I know
    I feel that way whenever I ever even have to talk to my ex. I want
    to have nothing to do with her while simultaneously I know I have
    to for the benefit of the children. She reminds me of mistakes in
    the past, of benefits I can't have today, of my weaknesses, etc.
    All those factors and emotions come into play. Therefore, when dealing
    with your ex, be cognizant of those underlying feelings while
    concurrently ensuring that you receive what is legally due for child
    support.
    
    Bert
    

    I think you should throw the formula out. Most of these formulas
    don't relate to reality. I my opinion(whatever thats worth) you 
    should figure what the total cost for the child is (cost of room and
    board, cloths entertainment and whatever) lets say that the number
    is $500/month. Then you should calculate the ratio of your income's,
    let's say you make 30K and he makes 20K then you should provide
     
    30k ex wife income
    20k ex husband income
    $500/month expenses
    ex wife pays $300 
    ex husband pays $200
    
    I am costodial parent of two boys my ex makes in excess of 30k and I
    get no child support.
    

 re: -1   John, the formula in colorado takes a ratio between incomes and
	applies it to a "theorectical" amount per child.  It came to $270ish/mo
	based on incomes at the time we got divorced.

	I don't know exactly what it will cost, but it is definitely more
	than $100/mo.

 re: -2   Your advice is good.  I forgot about the intrusion factor.  He
	is probably very much hoping that his current marriage will succeed
	and our daughter (and her support) is a constant reminder of me.

	BTW, Tina came back from her visit to he Dad with a different
	attitude.  I can't identify it, but I think she is struggling
	with feelings of loyalty to each of us.  He sent the child
	support check for April with her (it was $125), which I though
	was tacky.  I haven't talked to him since that original call.

	I did find out that in Minnesota he would have to pay up to 25%
	of his income regardless of what I make.  And they garnish the
	wages in this state.

	I've decided to wait and see how it goes.  I'm going to keep
	track of expenses, in figure out what is fair.  Since he has
	dependant coverage on his wife, I figure he can add Tina to
	his insurance for nothing....that would save me $30/mo.

	If things don't improve, or I can't afford it, I'll ask for
	an increase.  If nothing happens, I'll go back to court in 1991
	so my wages don't reflect the relocation.

	Thanks for all the great advice!

		sherry

    The problem I have with formula's is that it appears to be just another
    governmental scheme to redistribute wealth. Children need a certain
    income level to live decently. That's an absolute number regardless of
    the involved incomes. It requires x amount of dollars for food, shelter
    and the other necessities, but this should be based on REQUIREMENTS and
    not LIFESTYLES! There is a BIG difference between the requiring the
    non-custodial parent to support his/her child and taking a fixed
    percentage based on their income only. Life has no guarantees as to how
    fancy one lives if they remained married, it shouldn't require someone
    to pay such a guarantee after a split.
    
    Eric

    
    Society has an unconcious urge to punish certain members, such as
    libertines, drug users, men who end up divorced, criminals...
    

    
    re -1
    
    You honestly feel that a non-custodial parent's responsibility
    of paying to support their child is punishment for being divorced?
    
    

>    You honestly feel that a non-custodial parent's responsibility
>    of paying to support their child is punishment for being divorced?

 It is not inherently punishment, but it certainly can be used that way.

 The Doctah

    I just got my child support increased from $200 a month to $300. He
    wasn't very happy about it, but that wasn't my concern.  This is for
    one  child (we live in Texas).  My lawyer told me that I could have
    done this a year ago, when my child started school. This was because,
    there was a major change in the child's life, and expenses were
    increased.  I can also go back and get another increase, when he starts
    into high school, for the same reason.  As living expenses increase, so
    should child support.  
    
    As for punishing the non-custodial parent (in most cases, the father) I
    disagree.  I think the punishment is to the child who suffers when
    there is no extra money coming in.  Blue jeans alone can cost $50 and
    up.  
    
    My ex- also does not ever call or visit our son.  They get together 1-2
    times a YEAR!  And my son feel very abandended by his dad.  So, at
    least when that check comes every month, he feels that his dad at least
    thought about him for 5 minutes as he wrote out the check. 
    
    Becky

    
    blue jeans for kids at 50 bucks?
    
    my kid gets his at Kmart for 10-15 bucks max...

> My lawyer told me that I could have
>    done this a year ago, when my child started school. This was because,
>    there was a major change in the child's life, and expenses were
>    increased. 

 What expenses increased when the child began school and did they increase by
a factor of $1200/yr?

>I can also go back and get another increase, when he starts
>    into high school, for the same reason. 

 What will the change be then, a different school? How will that effect the cost
of raising the child?

>    As for punishing the non-custodial parent (in most cases, the father) I
>    disagree. 

 I am sure it is difficult to relate to a situation that you will probably never
experience...

>Blue jeans alone can cost $50 and up.  

 That is quite frankly ridiculous. I have never had a pair of jeans that cost
that much, and it isn't because I didn't want them. Do you want to know why some
men have a real problem with increases in child support? It's because the
money they already send is being unwisely spent. There is no reason in this
world why anyone NEEDS $50 jeans. If your boy wants them, he should save for
them. My kids ask for $50 jeans and other absurd items as well; DEC doesn't
give me more to pay for them, consequently the kids can save to get them if
they need that silly designer label bad enough. Shockingly, it never is that
important when THEY have to foot the bill.

>    My ex- also does not ever call or visit our son. 

 I think that's lousy.

>So, at
>    least when that check comes every month, he feels that his dad at least
>    thought about him for 5 minutes as he wrote out the check. 

 But does the amount really matter? :-)

 Becky, I imagine you probably feel persecuted at this point. I don't mean to
make you feel that way. Seriously. I may not be a non-custodial parent, but
I have seen some around me get really hosed, get treated fairly, and get away
with murder. I can empathise with men who feel that the courts are harming
and punishing them via unfair child support payments. I really feel that every
effort should be made by the custodial parent to get things to work out on
a given settlement before extending the hand again. That's all.

 The Doctah

    Doc, I think you came across a little harsh.
    
    I'm doing $250 a week to support the ex, her b-friend, his son, and my
    2 daughters.  It doesn't get reduced when that becomes one daughter.
    Steam, steam, ...
    
    When I get asked for "extra's" for prom gowns and college board fees
    I really get frosted.
    
    The courts and judges do often treat such payments as punishment. 
    That's why there is often an attempt to show fault at divorce hearings.
    
    I do think $50 for jeans is excessive but it was probably just a badly
    chosen example.
    
    ed

        
    
   >> I do think $50 for jeans is excessive but it was probably just a badly
   >> chosen example.
    
     Maybe, maybe not. In my experience  with 2 brothers and several
    friends, they did their family clothes shopping with the sales flyers from
    the local department stores. (My family hasn't spent more than $30.00 on
    a garment in 10 years). But, as soon as the divorce, mom decides the
    kids need top quality stuff. $75.00 jeans, $50.00 sneakers, my neice
    needed a $250 "distressed" leather jacket. But, when dad asks why
    clothes cost double or triple than he used to pay, he's told to shut up 
    and pay up.
    
    Guy
    

    I'm writing this for a little information in regards to the process in
    Mass. for the distribution of child support payments.
    
    Presently my wife is to receive weekly payments from her ex in support
    of her/our 6 yr old son.  Well the payments are far from weekly and
    when I ask her about them she tells me that there is nothing that he
    (the ex) can do because the checks come from the state in his name and
    it is a problem with the Family Services office.
    
    It would appear to me that if the holdup is with them, and the checks
    get so far in arrears that a contempt order is issued in his name,  a
    serious injustice would be done to him as it is not even his problem.
    
    Any ideas??

    what do you mean "the checks come from the state in his name"?  are his
    wages being garnished by some state agency and that agency is fumbling
    around forwarding the funds to your wife?  or is he sending a check to
    some state agency himself, and that agency is to forward it to her? 
    it's hard to understand how the former could be irregular, and easy to
    understand the latter.  
    
    my experience is with texas...i send weekly checks to an agency there,
    for recording, and they forward the same check to the ex ON THE SAME
    DAY.  And they have never missed, in nearly two years.
    
    tony

    my experience in colorado,
    
    my ex's company sends a check twice a month to the District Attnys
    office that handles child support payments, they cash them into a bank
    account, the bank holds the check for up to 15 working days(they say
    its to ensure that it passes...) then the money comes back to the
    agency, they print off a check and I get it anywhere from 3-10 days
    later.  If the person who processes the incoming check is not there,
    the check ends up sitting around till someone gets to it.  I have had
    to wait 1-2 weeks for a check to arrive.  they won't talk on the phone,
    so I have to take off from work and go downtown to their office to get
    a computer readout to find out when they have logged payments into the
    computer.  They tried to tell me how computers work,, and how I
    wouldn't understand the process, but I hand them a business card ( I am
    a networks software specialist II).  they then keep telling me its my
    ex's fault, I'll tell them "bs" give them a copy of his companies
    listing of all the checks paid, amounts, dates etc, still nothing. they
    tell me I have to wait till I get it in the mail!  I have tried
    to elevate up through their management and request that at least they
    should be consistant with the checks, but so far, I have been told 
    theres nothing they can do.  My ex has been wonderful the last couple 
    of years, and I'll be pretty mad if they give him any crap because I 
    know he is doing his part. 
    
    just one mom's perspective...
    
    vivian

    
    I send mine directly to the party of the second part.
    
    No delay, no hassle, no Big Bro getting involved.
    
    But if I were to become delinquent, that woman would
    hound me into and past the grave. 
    
    Needless to say, I don't get behind...

    My ex works for Roadway Trucking..  His company withholds the money from
    his check weekly, and they send me a check every two weeks, from Ohio,
    even though he works in Mass... I'm not had a problem since I went to
    court to have his check garnished... 
    
    Gale
    
    

    
    I am considering having an automatic deduction so as to preclude
    this happening to me.         

    re: .28
    According to what Personnel told me:  DEC will not garnish your wages
    for child support without a court order specefically ordering them to
    do so. 
    
    In my opinion, you will regret the decision.  It will take further
    court orders to change the amount of the garnishment.  (what will you
    do when one kid "grows out" of support?)
    
    tony

    RE: .29
    
    Hey Tony - You could always do what I did :-)...
    
    The amount of child support I am recieving is until the last child
    turns 18...  So, when child number 1 leaves (has already) and child
    number 2 leaves, the amount does not change...
    
    Gale

    Hey, what the hell, stick it to 'em.
    
    - M

    Ditto Mike.
    That sounds real fair to me too!
    
    

    RE: .31 and .32

    Sure, why not...  I mean, he was only $10,000 in arrears when the judge
    asked me how I wanted the payments made to me, and I said forget it, my
    parents and friends from DEC made sure the girls had electricity and
    heat in the winter for the three years that he refused to pay the child
    support...  instead, I said, since I felt he had a right to a life too,
    with the NORMAL child support being taken out, and then 1/2 of what was
    left being taken out weekly until the 10 grand was made up not allowing
    for a normal life, to just have one set amount until the baby turned
    18...  and he still comes out several thousands ahead...

    Ditto Mike. Yeah that sounds real fair to me too!

    as always...the "rest of the story" comes out.  I was just waiting for
    it.  
    
    I agree, if it is punishment or "catching up" that makes the payment
    stay constant after kids "reach maturity", then that's one thing. 
    quite another if it were his "normal" payments...
    
    but, then, no one ever tells the WHOLE story at first, do they?
    
    tony

    OF course not Tony... if people were to, shoot, then there wouldnt be
    any space for those fun filled whompings (you know.... the rest of the
    story)....
    
    Sorry Gail, I still dont agree......
    
    

    
    	I've got a question for you all on child support too.
    
    	My son turned 18 in november, according to my divorce agreement
    	child support ends when he turns 18. He is a senior in high
    	school, still living at home. 
    
    	As of his 18th birthday, I haven't sent her any more support. I
    	recently recieved a call form her stating she has talked to legal
    	councel and according to the new laws, I am required to contimue
    	paying as long as he is in school, living at home.. anyone have any
    	knowledge of this??
    
    	btw: he plans on going to college, and I am the one who has to pay
    	for that, and I'm currently taking the amout I was sending her and
    	putting it into an account for his education.
    
    	Anyone have any feedback??
    
    	Thanks
    
    	Ken Holland

    My brother used the age as a strict cut-off. He's in Michigan, if that
    makes any difference. And may I extend my appreciation and respect for
    your dutifully paying support and college tuition: a minority of
    fathers do so, I read, and my wife's ex-husband is completely
    irresponsible in this regard.
    
    - Hoyt

	In NH there is a state law that says 18 years of age or High School
  graduation, which ever comes later.

    Are you in the states , as laws over there may differ to thos in th UK.
    I believe something very simular is true here...but It may come from
    the government...may you could try citizens advice bureau.
    
    
    Tracie.

Ken,

Your best advisor on this one is your lawyer.  I believe a quick phone call will
clear it up, and only cost you a few months pay...  Seriously, I'd certainly not
take your EX's word as gospel.  By the way, does the divorce agreement specify
who pays for college?

    re .38 Thank you for that info on the NH law regarding age and high
    school. I wasn't aware of it. I'll have to add a couple of months to my
    support at the end. I'm another one who WILL NOT shirk it. One
    question. Can I cut it in half when my daughter turns 18? Does anyone
    know? I don't think that I will. Just to avoid the hassle, I'll
    probably keep paying the full amount for the 2 additional years. Just
    curious.
    
    Phil

Call your lawyer.  Don't rely on advice here - it could end up costing
you a LOT in the end.  If you need a recommendation for a Nashua-area
lawyer, send me mail.

			Steve

    
    
    	Thanks for the input's, and I've already talked to a lawyer
    	and I generally use a notes file as a sound board to get others
    	experiences.
    
    	The lawyer advised me that legally, as of now (in mass.) I am not
    	obligated to send any more money, but I could be taken back to
    	court to have support extended due to he is still living at home.
    	But there is no law govenrning the extension, it would depend
    	on the judge. He could stick tho the origanal agreement (18)
    	or honor an extension. 
    
    	But regarless of all that, I'll continue sending support till he
    	finishes High School.
    
    	and, there is nothing in my agreement about college. My willingness
    	to help is based on his (son) disire  to acquire a college education,
    	 the kicker is he also wants to go to med school...

    re: .41 "Can I cut it in half when my daughter turns 18?"
    
    From which I presume you have 2 kids on support.  It depends on your
    agreement.  In the absence of specific statements you may have grounds
    for going back to court to get payments reduced (but not in half) but
    you could lose by doing that if your payments have been constant for a
    long time because a reduced percentage of your current pay could be
    more than what you're paying ...  In any event, do consult a lawyer
    before doing anything that you question, it would be a lot cheaper than
    taking free advice.  :-)
    
    ed

    
      I recently had a bad experience with the Mass Middlesex
      Probate court ( like last friday ).. My Ex-Grandmother took me back
      for an increase in CS 1 month before my daughters 18 birthday.
      My ex-wife died and she stole my kid, a long sad story
    
      The Judge granted an increase until age 21 or if she drops
      out of college, They also plan on bringing me back into
      court very soon and order me to pay part/all of my daughters
      tuition, It doesn't matter that I have a new family and 
      a mortage etc... I'm still in shock, This state (Mass) will
      never cease to amaze me. 
    
      I'm supposed to feel lucky they didn't take 28% of my gross pay,
    
    	Dean

Does this mean that your kids can sue you in probate court so that you have to
pay for their college??

Maybe I can go back and sue my parents for the money I spent.

I've said this before, there is a double standard for men.  1 for when you're
married and 1 for when you're divorced.  If you stay single and have kids the
state takes care of them.

What a state!!

    I have NO idea if this is actually true, but the last couple of replies
    sort of intimate that it might be...
    
    I understand that in MA, the parent is OBLIGATED by LAW to provide a
    COLLEGE EDUDATION for their children, if they want it.
    
    I've never tested it, and fortunately, my SIX kids live in another
    state where there are still some freedoms allowed to parents... 
    
    tony

    RE: -1

    I've lived in Mass all my life(40+ years now)and I never heard of any
    such law.  I'd have to see that in print before I believe it.

    Joe 

    Re. last few:  Yes, at the time of my divorce in Massachusetts, my 
    lawyer told me that I could be held responsible for the costs of 
    putting my children through college.  We were delighted that my ex and
    his lawyer didn't put such a clause in the final decree, but I'm still
    expecting my ex to come after me for additional money once both
    children are in college.
    
    Re. -.46 (MILPND::CIOFFI):
    > I've said this before, there is a double standard for men. 
    
    As my experience shows, this is not reserved for men.  Non-custodial
    mothers come under the same rules.  (By the way, I'm proudly and
    voluntarily paying my fair share of my daughter's college expenses now,
    have been for two years, and expect to for at least another two years.)
         
    Karen

You're in a small minority who do not actually have custody of their kids.

The key word here is voluntarily.  I don't think the anybody should be forced
to send their kids to college.  I think if my daughter decides to go to college
I will do what I can to help but I have custody and I don't think that my ex
should be forced into contributing.  She probably should feel morally obligated
though.

A college education should be a joint decision between the parent(s) and the
kid(s) without the divine intervention of big brother.  This is just another
case where the government and the lawyers make decisions and laws which 
guarantee them future business.





Carl.

re: 437.47               child support...yes, again...                 47 of 47
>
>I understand that in MA, the parent is OBLIGATED by LAW to provide a
>COLLEGE EDUDATION for their children, if they want it.

    As I understand it, a few years back a Landmark decision was 
    made whereinea parent (father) of substantial means an his child
    had a falling out (argument), and his Father threw him out of
    the house.
    
    To make a long story short, the son did sue and collect the money
    for his college education. However, the caveat is that his 
    father was (is) of substantial means (very rich).
    
    I have been told, as have my children, by the Guidance Department
    in Leominster High School, that "anyone desiring one" may get a
    College Education if they want one. However, this context relates
    to the State owned schools (like Umass, LowellU, Lowell State, etc),
    and depends heavily on that form being filled out (Aid to Higher
    Education or something).
    
    I have no knowledge if parents can be forced to pay for children to
    attend the college of the childs choice, and force the parent to 
    pay all costs. If true, there could be a lot more bankruptcy claims
    coming up.
    
    Recently a Landmark Decison has been passed down enabling spouses to
    go bankrupt and not pay "<mumble mumble>" .. only heard part of the
    news, but the States are very upset over it. Somethiong to do with
    the division of property.
    
    -BobE
    
    
    
    

    re .25   I wasn't aware that one owed their child a college education.
    Full support through High School yes, but college?  How can they order
    you to pay for a college education?  I guess they just do it, right.

    my last... re .25, I ment re .45    

    My divorce decree (from Texas, 1988) specifically states the amount of
    CS to be paid (as dollars and cents, rather than percentage of
    whatever) and also stipulate that the CS is to be paid until age 18
    UNLESS the child is in school.  In that event, CS is to be paid 'till
    age 21.  However, the decree does NOT dictate that I must pay the cost
    of the school.  
    
    So, extended CS doesn't seem to be all that uncommon.  
    
    As I said in .47, though, I believe that in MA, the obligor may be REQUIRED
    to pay the cost of the shcool, too.
    
    tony

    Does the parent get any legal say in WHAT school (college) the child
    can attend? For example, if legally obligated to pay for the
    son/daughters college education, it would make a difference in cost
    whether the person attended a State School vs. MIT or the equivalent.
    I am not divorced thus do not have any experience in paying child
    support.  However, I wonder if the Gov. isn't taking things a bit too
    far in legally requiring the parent to put their child through college!
    
    Alot of us who WANT to put our kid thru college can't afford to.  When
    one gets divorced it can become a legal requirement to do something one
    couldn't afford under other circumstances!?  I assume that this applies
    to all divorced parents regardless of their economic situation? Or does
    it only apply to those whom the State figures it can milk for the
    money?
    
    My point is not whether I would WANT to put my kid thru college... its
    the Gov. mandated requirement.  Where was the Government pressure to
     require MY parents to put me through college back in 1970 because I
    was 'unfortunate enough' to not come from a broken home.

    Oftentimes an apparently "stupid" bureaucratic requirement turns out
    to be a bungled solution to a real problem.  In the case of financing
    college education, the requirement that the non-custodial parent
    contribute was in response to a common situation:
    
    	Child of a divorced single parent wants to go to college.
    	Custodial parent barely makes enough to make ends meet; 
    	college is out of the question on this parent's finances
    	alone.  Non-custodial parent is VERY well off (or at least
    	appears so on paper) but is either out of the picture entirely 
    	or else pays only the required child support and is not 
    	interested in financing college.  Student applies for financial 
    	aid and is turned down because they claim that the well-off  
    	non-custodial parent represents a substantial resource to the 
    	student.  Nobody can persuade the NCP to help with the college 
    	costs, and the poor student is caught in the middle.
    
    Not surprisingly, there are MANY different kinds of situations that
    can lead to the above state... but only the most odious and unfair
    ones ever make it to the ears of the bureaucrats... and so they
    figure they'll apply an equal but opposite odious and unfair
    requirement which will hopefully balance things out.  Trouble is,
    not all NCPs are high-living seven-figure folks who don't give a
    damn about their offspring... some look good "on paper" but are in
    fact struggling themselves (e.g. they have a big house but it won't
    sell in a down market, or they have assets in some illiquid form
    that will diminsh greatly if they actually try to cash them out...).
    
    

    .56  good explanation, thanks.

    This is *somewhat* off the topic... I'm my wife's second husband. Her
    first has failed to pay $50,000 in child support in the last 8 years,
    and we have every expectation that he will fail to meet his obligations
    toward college as set out in the divorce decree. We really have no
    basis for an opinion, but our theory is that he doesn't have much
    money, since historically he cannot hold a job. Here are my questions:
    
    1) Is he going to be part of the college's financial aid investigation,
       even though he's contributed zip for 8 years? If so, what will
       happen when he refuses to fill out the financial aid forms?
    
    2) Is MY income relevant, since I'm step-dad and co-own my wife's
       assets? If so, would we receive greater financial aid if my wife
       and I were to divorce (one of those divorce 12/31, remarry 01/01
       deals), so that on her tax return my wife appears single? I guess
       we could put the assets in my name, too (she'd have to *trust* me
       on 12/31 :).
    
    3) Does anybody know anybody who can advise me about college aid
       strategies?
    
    Thanks for any/all wisdom - Hoyt

    RE: .51, the case you're referring to went like this:

    Couple got divorced and the husband was supposed to keep the house, but
    pay his ex-wife her share. In between the time they were divorced and
    the time the financial settlement was to occur, he declared bankruptcy.
    In Texas, with homestead laws, with bankruptcy, you assets can be
    attached, except for your home (unless the loan being secured by the
    house is the one not paid. If the house has no mortgage, then the
    creditors can't touch the "homestead". In this case, the ex-wife is now
    an unsecured creditor, which puts her low on the list of people to get
    paid, and she can't force the liquidation of the family home.
    
    Eric

    Re .58
    
    I believe that the college will require the bio-father's financial
    information before college aid will be calculated/awarded.  I know that
    with my husband's half-sister, she was denied financial aid because
    her father refused to provide the necessary financial information.  The
    kicker is that she would have gotten lots of aid if he had since he
    hasn't worked in years and doesn't have anything.  He just felt it was
    an invasion of his privacy (talk about selfish).  My husband's other
    sister who started law school at the age of 33 and has 2 children was
    also asked about financial assistance that she would be receiving from
    her parents.  She told the school she didn't know where her father was,
    which was true since he'd recently moved and hadn't bothered to tell
    anyone his new address yet, and was able to get the school to accept
    that as sufficient reason not to get his financial status while still
    giving her financial aid.
    

    This is exactly the problem we face (.60) -- the ex- might refuse to
    fill out the form as an invasion of privacy, either out of
    embarrassment because he has no assets/income, or out of fear because
    he has assets/income and owes us big-time. I wonder if it might be
    better to simply list him as "deceased."
    
    - Hoyt

    The only thing that was inportant to my daughter's FAF was the income
    of the person who claimed her on his/her income tax in the last 2
    years.  As of now she has claimed herself for two years, therefore,
    no parents income was requested and she is eligible for something.
    
    ed

    THAT's very interesting. The ex- has no basis for deducting his
    daughters, so we could infer that he doesn't and is therefore
    irrelevant. At the time your daughter established her independence by
    NOT appearing on your income tax return for two years, how old was she?
    
    Thanks, Hoyt

    18.
    
    ED

    Actually she was 16&17 for the tax year in which she claimed herself.
    
    ed

    This could be a breakthrough. I think it would be inspiring for her to
    be declaring her own income, filing her own taxes, acting adult. And if
    it can minimize hassles with her bio-dad and maximize financial aid...m
    
    Thanks for the info! - Hoyt

    The FAF uses the results of 2 years tax returns, so by asking mom not
    to claim her last year and this year and she claims herself, this year
    she gets the paperwork saying she's eligible for aid.
    
    Some schools might ask more questions, but it's a start and I'm going
    to stop claiming the other one in her Junior year in HS in hopes of ...
    
    Who knows?  The middle class needs an edge somewhere.
    
    ed

    I am a step-father. When my wife divorced her first husband, the decree
    stated that he would pay $600/month child support, plus all of the
    children's college expenses. He's paid no child support for years. My
    wife and I make similar amounts of money, and we've contributed equal
    amounts to the household, e.g. to make the mortgage payment and pay the
    food bill. She has three children, all teenage daughters. I haven't
    adopted them.
    
    In Massachusetts, if I divorce my wife, can she obligate me to pay
    child support? We each own half of our real estate, by construct. Can
    she expect to be awarded more than half, by virtue of being a mother of
    dependent children?

Interesting question.  On the face of it, I'd say that you have no obligation
to support someone else's kids, but the court can do almost anything it
pleases.  I would strongly suggest you pose these questions to a lawyer
knowledgeable in Massachusetts "family law".

			Steve

 It would seem ridiculous for you to be forced to finance someone else's
kids. Therefore it is probably the law in  Massachusetts. .5 x :-)

    But then agian there is a state of rediculous laws.:) And I think that
    if your planning on doing such things as the divorce word you should
    start motioning the former husband/father to start paying his fair
    share or you might be paying for what he doesn't pay. Not fair, but
    just as the courts might see.