Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    	My opinion would be to write this place off!!
    
    	I will not enter a place that has such a dress code. Does someone
    	wearing a tie make them any better person than one not? Not in my
    	books. Just another yuppie elitest snob-hole.

    Hmmm what do they require the ladies to wear?  A dress??
    
    I agree, write this place off....
    

I too have been annoyed at the hypocrisy of restaurants with dress codes.
I once went to a restaurant in Boston in the company of another man and two
women.  I was dressed in dress slacks, shirt and shoes - indeed, I had been
wearing a jacket and tie earlier that day.  I was told I needed to have a
jacket, and was given a "house jacket" (four sizes too small) which I could
wear to the table and then hang on the chair.  The two women in my party were
wearing grubby jeans, sweatshirts and sneakers, and nary a peep about their
attire.  I would not willingly return to that restaurant.

				Steve

Then again, there's the restaurant I was taken to near Denver (a big
steak house, can someone help me with the name?), that if you wore a tie,
you were given two choices - you could take it off voluntarily or they would
snip it off with scissors, parade it around the restaurant with bells ringing,
and would hang it on the wall for all to see.  If you chose the latter path,
you get a free drink as compensation.  I was told that it is a ritual to
go there wearing the ugliest tie you can find, and people have indeed
found some TRULY ugly ones, based on the wall display.

					Steve

I agree with the previous notes.... drop'em.  I use to have mixed feelings
about this issue, and I use to enjoy wearing ties.  I have a drawn full that I
don't pull on any more.  One day, I'll have a garage tie sale....

Today I enjoy the casual look much more.  Nice casual... that is.  I feel
"stuffy" wearing something formal like a tight collar, tie, etc., and I prefer
a loose jacket, sleeves rolled back, nice slacks, and a casual shirt, probably
a pastel or black tee shirt, (BVD style), and then I feel right at home.

Requiring ties is 'old fashioned, yuppie trended, and snobish.'  We may all be
in some type of "group" but the yuppie scene floors me!  The only good yuppie
is a ......

-dwight

PS:  Steve, I don't see how you could dine there that time!  Wearing a silly,
     small, jacket to a table, just to hang it on a chair!  I hate that kind of
     control.

I happen to enjoy dressing up and wearing a jacket and tie, and will usually
do so if I'm going somewhere where it seems appropriate.  What I don't like
is being told I HAVE to wear a tie or jacket just from some phony sense
of propriety.

				Steve

re:      <<< Note 413.4 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

Steve's story of the Denver restaurant reminds me of my friend's bar back
home. Some guy came in wearing an alligator shirt and my friend (the bartender)
promptly bit it off before she would serve him :-).

Personally I wouldn't go near a place that wouldn't serve anyone that was 
wearing jeans or whatever. I've always thought that ties should be banned
anyway...silly things.

Jenna

    I went to a hotel where a friend from Holland was staying in; this was
    a 'chain' hotel, one of the more well known names - also this is in
    England. I turned up in jeans and a shirt - it took a while to explain
    I was only meeting someone, and not trying to use the hotel's bar.
    
    Sheesh!!!
    
    Pete.

Re: < Note 413.4 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >

>Then again, there's the restaurant I was taken to near Denver (a big
>steak house, can someone help me with the name?), that if you wore a tie,
>you were given two choices - you could take it off voluntarily or they would
>snip it off with scissors...

Are you thinking of the Pinnacle Peak Patio outside of Phoenix, Arizona?

    If someone gets a headache while wearing a tie chances are that the
    shirt is at fault. Most men will only button the top button if they
    are wearing a tie. Ties are very easily lossened if too tight but
    buttons are binary. I'm careful to only wear ties with shirts that
    fit well around the neck (I have a good sized neck for my body so
    have to watch it.)
    
    			Alfred

RE:< Note 413.9 by WHRFRT::WHITE "I'll get up and fly away..." >

>Are you thinking of the Pinnacle Peak Patio outside of Phoenix, Arizona?
  

  Bob, as I recall there are a couple of places in Colorado that follow the
tradition of the Pinnacle Peak Patio..We used to patronize one in Colorado
Springs, but I'll be darned if I can remember the name of the place..



Jim

I believe the name of the steak house was the Traildust.  The one I went
to was just outside of Denver.  I may get disoriented, but I don't think
I'd confuse Denver with Phoenix!

				Steve

    
    
     It was the Trail dust steak house which was a chain atleast 
    here in Colo.The food was not good, in my opinion,and the
    the adds they ran on Tv were obnoxshis(sp).Maybe that is why
    their out of business.
    
    Later Donovan

Re: .13

They seemed mighty popular when I was there last spring...

			Steve

    I went back there to see the manager, he explained the rule was
    to keep the "riff-raff" out....and he was sorry that the rule 
    was misunderstood.
    
    jim
    

    
    
                I object to being termed "riff-raff."  :^)
    
    

    What about the "Riff-Raff" who wear ties?
    
    Richard.
    

    They should always be accompanied by two domestics named "Magenta" and
    "Columbia"?
    
    ;)
    
    -Jody
    

Darn, Jody beat me to it....  Just don't go looking like "Eddie".

			Steve

    "Oh no!  Meatloaf AGAIN?!"
    
    sorry, I'll stop now....
    
    -Jody
    
    

    I have seen some men wearing their suit without a tie in formal places.
    Some times it is hard to find the tie that matches the shirt and the
    suit.
    If the top button is button up, would that serve the purpose?
         

    I went to the Trail Dust Steak house in Dallas; apparently it's
    the original restaurant which grew to a chain because of the
    popularity of its no-ties-allowed game.  The wall was papered with
    tie ends, mostly accompanied by IBM business cards.  
    
    We noticed that women's suit scarves, which function as ties,
    weren't cut off; all four of us were wearing such scarves and
    attracted no notice.  
    
    On the original topic -- I like going to dress-up restaurants once
    in a while.  We went to Levi Lowell's in Merrimack for Valentine's
    dinner and it was nice.  Day in day out I prefer casual nice, but
    life's a lot nicer and richer for me if it's got some special
    moments that take work and preparation.  If it's all on the same
    "ok" level, I lose both the high spots and the lows or relaxation.  
    
    --bonnie

   > We went to Levi Lowell's in Merrimack for Valentine's
   > dinner and it was nice

    Hey I was there too, only half the men there had ties/coats on.
    But that didn't really have any effect on my rating the restaurant

    Gail

    re: .25
    
    Really?  Which room were you in?  
    
    We were in the back room with the gas fireplace, and every man I
    could see had a suit and tie -- though some removed the jacket as
    soon as they sat down.  I don't know that Levi Lowell's actually
    requires a tie as long as you're dressed nicely.  I think they'd
    be more likely to refuse service to a woman in ripped high-fashion
    jeans than to a man in nice slacks and a sweater. 
    
    --bonnie

    Its OK with me if resturants require a tie, actually my wife would
    probably like that idea, she's always trying to get me to dress up.  
    I just don't go to them.  
    
    What about the crack about Yuppies and ties.  Yuppies don't wear ties
    and they don't go to resturants to eat, they go to dine and then they
    buy the place if they like it, and further more they go in Docksiders.
    
    

    Thought I'd share a tie experience of several years ago, one I'll not 
    forget...

    Ritz Carlton dining room at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Boston.  We were
    a group of four couples, one of the gents happened to be wearing a
    turtle neck shirt and sport coat.  He looked very well dressed (not a
    cheap shirt and jacket by any means).  As we approached the dining room
    the host informed him that without a tie he could not be seated but the
    hotel would be happy to provide a tie for him.  Great!  A tie with a
    turtle neck shirt.  No problem.  My friend took the tie and put it on.
    We were seated.  I looked up from my menu and it appeared Ben was no
    longer wearing the tie.  This happened to catch the attention of the host
    who promptly walked over and reminded Ben of the rules of the house.

    "But Sir", says Ben, "I am wearing the tie."  At that Ben stands up,
    places his back to the host and shows how he's turned the tie around
    so that it is hidden under the turtle neck and down the back of his
    sports coat.  "Sir, I have complied with your rules, I am wearing a tie
    in the fashion which I am accustomed when also wearing a turtle neck
    shirt.  Kindly permit my friends and I to dine uninterrupted for the rest 
    of the evening".  And dine we did.

    .28 reminds of of a neighbor when I was a kid in Chicago years back. A
    late teenage "punk" who pretended to be interested in nothing but
    working on old junk cars.  But his family's more intellectual heretige
    was betrayed in some obscure insights he had gained. Illinois law
    required that all road cars have emergency brakes, rear-view mirrors,
    windshield wipers, and the like.  But it was a little vague on some of
    the details.  So often to be found on the back seat of his vehicles (or
    the floor, if there was no back seat) were: emergency brake, rear-view
    mirror, windshield wiper, etc.  He also carried a copy of the law, so
    he could prove to the men in blue (and they were all men, then) that
    there was no requirement that these items be installed and functional.
    So, I suppose you could tie your tie around . . . well, any part of
    your person that you would care to.
    
    			- Bruce

    If you make reservations at the Stonehedge you are told about their
    dress code.
    
    When I go out to dine, as differentiated from just plain putting on the
    feed bag somewhere, I am very glad to see dress codes enforced,
    including ties.  Dining out is a special occasion for my wife and I,
    and I don't want it ruined by Yahoo's.  That little bit of selectivity
    on the part of management also tends to keep out people who would be
    undesirable for other reasons.
    
    I'm glad there are a few islands of good taste where standards are
    still enforced...Our society could use a lot more of the same.

    Re: .30
    
    > Dining out is a special occasion for my wife and I, and I don't
    > want it ruined by Yahoo's.
    
    Well, the point that you and an awful lot of snooty maitre-d's
    seem to miss is that dress is by NO means a measure of Yahoo-ness.
    I've been to plenty of dining establishments where the properly
    attired folks at the next table were being loud, rude, and
    obnoxious after having sampled too liberally of the establishment's
    wine cellar.
    
    I, for one, always try to carry myself with a level of dignity
    suitable to my surroundings, regardless of my manner of dress.
    And that's the point a lot of people are trying to make:  I am
    exactly the same person whether I'm wearing black tie or tie-dye.
    
    [actually, I've raised more than a few eyebrows by going to the
    opposite extreme... if I'm hungry after a symphony gig, I'll go
    out to some hole-in-the-wall without changing out of my tux...
    Nobody's thrown me out yet for inappropriate dress 8-) ]
    
    --jim
    

    
    Re: .30/.31
    
    OK - if dress code is an unfair way of trying to prevent "Yahoo-ness"
    in restaurants (which, I assume, we all deplore)....what would be
    a fairer way of assessing people for entry?
    
    Do we simply trust in others to behave as we would?
     - I've had many an expensive meal ruined by that assumption....
    
    Should restaurants refuse to book groups of over a certain number?
     - Especially around Christmas?
     - Or refuse block company bookings?
    
    'gail
    

    RE: .32   Why do you think enforcing a snooty dress code will guarantee
    that all who enter a restaurant will behave like perfect ladies and
    gentlemen ??? Do ties, suitcoats, and fancy dresses contain hidden
    compartments of good-behavior medicine ?  :-} 
    
    You sound like you've never seen a completely obnoxious, loud
    (and usually a bit over .10) person in a suit coat and tie (or fancy
    dress if it's a woman). Clothes do not dictate behavior, in my opinion.
    
    Paul C.
    
    
    

re:  .32  [yuppy::daviesa]    
    
>>>OK - if dress code is an unfair way of trying to prevent "Yahoo-ness" in
restaurants (which, I assume, we all deplore)....what would be a fairer way of
assessing people for entry?

Check for dirt under their finger nails.  
Check for stains in their shorts.
Check their socks for "smell."
Check for nose hairs.
Check their wallets for used rubbers.
Check their node names for "yuppy"
Check their music taste by playing the "Stones" and watch their reactions.

>>>Do we simply trust in others to behave as we would?

How do we know how you'll behave??  Should you be trusted??

The question deserves the answers.

-dwight    

    
    Re .34
    
    "You can usually get well-behaved clientele by charging outrageous
    prices for the meals"
    
    Mike - that's the same rule that says that those who can afford
    to dress well will behave sociably. i.e. assuming that money = manners.
    
    Re .35
    
    Fair point Dwight.
    I was assuming that "we" are the anti-Yahoo people who, realising
    the impact of that behaviour in restaurants, wouldn't do it ourselves.
    And therfore trusting that others would behave as "we" do means
    trusting that others wouldn't Yahoo where we had paid to eat.
         
    'gail
         
    

    Hell, I don't care if a restaurant wants me to wear a tie.
    
    So long as I can pick my nose, wipe the results on the tablecloth, 
    and, in my state of extreme flatulence after the onion soup, let out
    a few good ones, I'm happy.
    
    I'm one classy guy, tie or no tie. :-)
    
      Alan

    
    Re .38
    
    Shucks Mike - my ignorance is showing.
    
    Honestly - I've never been into a place with a dresscode here in
    the UK where they lend those items. You either turn up wearing them,
    or you're not allowed in. 
    
    Maybe I've been shooting from a different base.....
    Another lesson learned fro MENNOTES!     
                         
    'gail                               f
    

    
    Re UK places with a dress code
    
    Thats not the half of it... they also have trained French attack
    maitre-ds with finely tuned scowls of dissaproval for withering 
    uppity colonials...
    

        It would be nice if someone posted how to tie the
        things!  :-)

    Borrow a Boy Scout manual.

    
    Re : .41
    
    Do you mean bow ties or "normal" ties?
    
    On "normal", the "Colour for Men" book illustrates more weird and
    wonderful knots than I've ever come across in daily use.....(apart
    from sorting out the rest of your wardrobe!).
    
    On bow ties - get a woman to tie it for you ;-)
    Seriously - I instructed my whole (male) Sales Unit before a formal 
    dinner on one occasion. Clip-fastening bow ties look naff with 
    wing-collared shirts IMO (and theirs)....
                  
    'gail
    
    

    
    Bow ties are not what men who wish to portray integrity wear.
    
    They are for the likes of CBS commentators, movie reviewers,
    or boxing referees...
    
    However, Irving R. Levine looks and sounds trustworthy in one..
    why I haven't a clue.
    

Holt>    Bow ties are not what men who wish to portray integrity wear.
    
	 
	 
         Bow ties are personal expression.  Nothing more, nothing
	 less.



	 kath

    Yes, bow ties are symbols of personal expression.  However,
    "a recent poll" concluded that the perception of people who
    where bow ties is that they are not to be trusted.  Thus, perhaps,
    the statement in .44.
    
    ed

>    Yes, bow ties are symbols of personal expression.  However,
>    "a recent poll" concluded that the perception of people who
>    where bow ties is that they are not to be trusted. 
    
	Were the people who responded to this "recent poll" perchance
	wearing four-in-hands?  And would they be more likely to trust,
	say, Richard Nixon or Jim Wright than, say, Archibald Cox?


		a proud (but apparently untrustworthy) wearer of bow ties

    You never know where these "polls" come from unless you read the
    journals and even then statisticians are to be suspected (perhaps they
    wear bow ties? :-) :-) )  I think this one was one of those USA Today
    factoids.
    
    Personnally, I don't trust anyone in a tie, of any sort, but I do
    realize that custom dictates certain modes of dress for certain types
    of business.
    
    ed

    Aw, heck. Personally I LOVE stupid rules.
    My tendency would be to ask if the dress code applied to just
    coats and ties, and when assured that it did, remove my shirt
    and t shirt and put on the tie.
    An alternative would be to remove the pants, but I catch cold
    easily.
    Seriously, though, my full formal Scots Regalia has no tie, it has
    the kilt, a green velvet jacket, and lace cuffs and a lace "Jabot"
    (kinda like a short bib of white lace).  It is the full equivalent
    of a Tuxedo for evening wear.  Would that be accepted?   Phil

    
    Sounds totally acceptable for any occasion to me Phil.....
    
    Kilts.
    (Pant. Whimper.)
                   
    'gail
    

�    Kilts.
�    (Pant. Whimper.)
    
    Not to mention...
    
      Pants.
      (Kilt. Whimper.)
    
    And the ever-popular:
    
      Wimps.
      (Pant. Kilter.)
    
    (To actually tie this reply into the topic, I was at a performance
    piece last Thursday in which the lead actor needed help with his bow
    tie.  Not one person in the audience knew how to do it - all the men,
    including your correspondent, had always had some woman do it for them
    and all the women - well, they must've been different women.  The poor
    dude had to leave it dangling for the rest of the night.)
    
    Ray

>    dude had to leave it dangling for the rest of the night.)
    
 

	someone should have volunteered to help him.

    I wanted to open a discussion on this subject and found out that it
    already existed.... Anyway, here's my reply...
    *******************************************************************
    
    Just one question: does it never upset you that in high category
    restaurants it's only men who are supposed to be "smartly" dressed,
    smartly meaning wearing ANY jacket and ANY tie you can get hold of?
    It's just so ridiculous when you see the sign:
    "Gentlemen - jacket, please"
    "Gentlemen - jacket and tie, please"
    "No jeans"
    etc etc
    It make me nervous because one can be very smartly dressed WITHOUT
    wearing the grey/blue suit uniform of the average white collar
    worker...and wearing a silk designer tie and a $250 tank top doesn't
    convince the waiter at all, let me tell you, and it's downright
    ridiculous and liable to spoil your evening if you just happen to try
    to get into such a place in the flow of the evening...
    And....why only the MEN? Why can women always get in everywhere no
    matter what they wear?? More precisely: Why wasn't I allowed in
    yesterday when the total cost of what I was wearing surely amounted to
    a one week vacation in Greece, and a friend of mine who was wearing the
    most pitiful worn out, ill fitting, outfashioned grey suit wouldn't
    have had any problem to get into that damn-rotten piano bar? And one of
    the women friends that went with us was wearing jeans, and the waiter
    said it was ok, at which I nearly got apoplectic... And while we were
    discussing with the waiter what a backward imbecile he was, a guy was
    left in wearing something that once probably resembled John Travolta's
    suit in "Saturday Night Fever", but had seen more washing than the
    dollars of the Coca-Mafia since then... 
    We went to another place which proved to be a lot more enjoyable, but I
    didn't stop talking about arming ourselves with Molotov-cocktails and
    baseball bats and obliging that piano bar with another visit for a
    couple of hours...
    ...Paul                                               

    See my .3.
    
    		Steve

    	Remember.....These places will let a woman in wearing anything or
    almost nothing to attract men. They then place restrictions on the men
    to make them "dress" because it attracts more women seeking males who
    "appear" successful. This gives the establishment an 'aura' of being a
    high class or upper level meeting place. This causes a spiral of
    competitiveness upwardly and often times makes the club ""THE"" place
    to be seen, heard, smelled..........
    
    	I went to a place like this with my wife. They refused to allow me
    to enter. I went to the car, got a piece of rope and whipped it into a 
    windsor, picked up spring jacket, turned in the collar and dared the
    rectum at the door to refuse me again. I was so loud and obnoxious that
    people were beginning to walk out. After they seated me, I took off the
    rope, put it in the water glass, took my wife's hand and walked out.
    
    	Not exactly a mature thing to do, but I had lost my appetite
    anyway.
    
    Ken

    Wow!  Ballsy move, Ken.  I think about retaliatory actions like that
    often, but only after I'm back in the car, cursing myself for not
    doing/saying what I reeealy think.  Remind me never to piss you off.
    (smiley face and whatnot ...)
    
    Larry
    
    
    

    
    rope ties are pretty common in cowboy bars, rodeos, and CW concerts..

    ... and lynchings.
    
    Larry

    My wife's embarrassment meter would have blown a fuse, and she'd have
    filed the next day. I won't even tell her that story, lest she take
    preemptive action.
    
    - Hoyt