Conference quark::mennotes-v1

This is the place.  You may also want to look at QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS,
note 25, for many perspectives on divorce.

One thing you'll quickly find is that you're NOT the only one who's
gone through this, and that realization alone is a big help.  It certainly
was for me.

I'd also put in a plug for visting your local EAP counselor and having
a chat with them.  It helps.

				Steve

    There's also a PARENTING conference.  I don't have the node name,
    but if you look in the EASYNOTES directory, I'm sure it's listed.
    
    HUMAN_RELATIONS is a really interesting conference, I'm sure you'll
    get lots of input from the members, it's quite active!
    
    Best of luck to you, I know it must be so painful right now for
    you, but you will make it!
    
    Hugs,    Tammi
    

    I just went through a divorce two years ago.I know that it is difficult
    right now,but it just takes time to heal.If you need someone to talk
    to my number is DTN 343-1517.One thing you have to remember is it 
    does not hurt forever...
    							Russell

    PArenting is on TERZA::
    
    

PARENTING is at TERZA::PARENTING.

	Steve

    My wife and I separated about a year ago. I, too went through the
    isolation stage and am still dealing with the others.  I got myself
    out of the isolation mode by just getting out and socializing with 
    other folks who shared common interests.. Our separation was amicable
    so I imagine may be somewhat different.  I can see the kids anytime,
    and our relationship is good, although sometimes I feel that I'm
    missing a lot not being with them all the time.  Last night my 13 year
    old son called me just to talk...about the Red Sox, school, other
    things going on in his life..I was a bit saddened when I hung up. But
    I know that living with my wife again simply would not work..and have
    accepted that.
    
    Financially it has been tough..But I resolved that I was not going to
    let that get to me.  I got in touch with creditors and let them know I
    *will* pay my bills, but requested their patience while I worked on
    getting that together.
    
    I am going to counseling (dealing with a number of other personal
    situations) and find that that helps tremendously.
    
    
    Not sure if I'm giving you advice or just sharing my situation.  I
    think its OK to brood for a while..But getting up and out helps.  I
    hated the isolation part even though I've always enjoyed solitude.  By
    getting out and meeting other people I've got the social part of my
    life with friends I care a lot about, and the solitude when I want it.
    I've come to really enjoy single life for the most part.
    
    
    I highly recommend counseling also.
    
    
    Jim
    

     .0> men who are going through divorce
     .0> and all the subsequent trauma - support payments, debt, poverty,
     .0> dramatically altered lifestyle, inadequate contact with kids,
     .0> insufficient resources

       Ya, I got all of that (in the process for the last 13.5 months).

       Give me a call or send mail

       Richard
       DTN 226-5311
       TOOK::R_GRAY

       PS.  Are you getting divorced in NH?

    
    Well you are definatly not alone .0....   I am currently seperated and
    have been for 7 months now.  She is filing this Monday and I have my
    Laywer all warmed up and ready to go.  My situation seems a terrible
    mess to me and I feel like I am just getting deeper and deeper in the
    ole emotional PIT...  My 2 boys 5 and 7 seem to dealing with it little
    by little but I see a difference in thier attitude.
    
    I have been an emotional wreck since leaving but all my anger since
    leaving my "Soon to be X" is fading and I am 100% more relaxed in my
    life now.  My X is constantly on the attack and is trying to scare me
    by saying she is going to drag this whole thing out and get me for
    MORE than I worth "Her words".
    
    I get my kids every other weekend now and I watch my youngest every day
    while my X goes to work. (I work third shift)...
    
    i have been trying to keep the split amicable but every time we meet it
    ends up in a Free For All fight.  She refuses to stay out of my
    personnal affairs and will go as far as calling me on the weekend at
    03:00 A.M. just to Pi** me off.  She showes up at my apartment
    unnanounced to see who I'm with....
    
    Well that's about it for now... I have a thousand war stories about
    this whole subject...   
    
    .0  This is a great note to start..... I feel better already..
    
    P.S.  If any of you need want to talk off line please send Mail... 
    Some of the things I'm going through just can't be put in NOTES..  The
    Mods would delete 95% of it.....
    
    
    Steve

    Just to let you(re .0) know the trauma you spoke about is not felt
    over here as well.
    I lost the kids, the house, the car, all my tools and books and
    half my salary. I also had to pay 5000 pounds sterling for house
    repairs. 
    I haven't seen the kids since April 1988.
    
    But, 4 years later I've remarried and we have been buying our own
    house for a year.  I've been cycling to work and only doing part-time
    jobs or hobbies that pay(ie the Reserve forces). 
    But in 1990 I'm going to buy a car, for me. A small run down heap
    that'll be mine.
    
    It is depressing but all I can advise is to fight to survive. In
    a years time I'll be better of than I am now, I'm better of now
    than I was a year ago. 
    
    Keep in touch as you are most certainly not alone.
    
    Dave 

    Just to let you know I messed up the first line of my reply, see
    previous reply. The trauma etc is felt over here.
    
    Dave

    Loneliness has never felt this way before.  What can one do when ones
    friends are getting married as one is getting separated.  I am afraid
    to I will jeapordize my friends' marriages by hanging out with them.
    Is this just my feeling or have others felt this way?
    
    I don't want to get separated but my wife doesn't want to stay together
    because she isn't in love with me anymore.  Can anyone explain this to
    me or is this one of those things that one has to learn to accept over
    time.  I don't understand how this falling out of love process works.
    
    I had to leave my home.  I don't know exactly what the kids must be
    thinking.  They know I moved because my wife and I were always fighting
    and we didn't want them to face that situation constantly.  Sometimes
    though I feel that they think I abandoned them.  I don't want to live
    without my kids.  I feel I am being punished because my wife doesn't
    want to live with me anymore.  I am not interested in creating a big
    stink about this because it will only hurt the kids.  Now that total
    confusion has set I could use a little bit of serenity.
    
    Any bits of wisdom will be appreciated.
    
    /Arun
    DASXPS::JAIN

    
    
    Please find and read the book "Crazy Time."  "How To Survive The
    Loss Of A Love" is also an excellent book; however, I would recom-
    mend that you wait a couple of months before reading it as it is
    very intense.
    
    My heart goes out to you.
    
    Deborah
    

    no, I'd recommend you go ahead and start reading it. You'll find
    yourself in there somewhere. And a year later you'll probably find
    yourself also though in a different place. In a year you'll be
    different. 
    
    Good luck.
    
    Dj

    
    You say you had to leave because she "Fell out of Love"  Why doesn't
    she leave...  I am on the other end of the battle.  I fell out of love
    with my wife years ago and stayed together for the KIDS sake till it
    became unbearable and I finally decided to leave.  I understand how you
    feel about feeling like you abandoned your kids but you did not
    abondoned them she MADE you leave..  I miss my kids terribly and at
    times almost talk myself into going back BEGGING just so I will be with
    the kids but if there is no love there it just isn't going to work.
    
    The kids "Hopefully" in time will understand and for a long while your
    mind will be a total mess and your feelings are going to be all screwed
    up.  I am going on 8 months of my seperation and my mind still hasn't
    changed about going back but I still get very depreessed about mising
    my kids so much.
    
    All I can say is from first hand experience is it gets a little better
    day by day but it takes time.... "Lots of it"
    
    
    Steve
    
    

    You aren't alone, my divorce is in process now. I don't have any
    children, and the resulting complications. In a way that's kind of
    a double edged sword. Even for an amicable divorce with no children
    involved, the process still stinks, and all the support avenues I've
    been able to find info on seem to be geared to parent/children issues,
    which aren't much help. A very isolated feeling sometimes.
    
    Good luck

    re: .0


        I also have gone through a divorce and I would say for me, was the
     most painful thing I've ever experienced. I was married for 17 years,
     we owned our own home for about 15 years, had two great kids a boy
     who at the time was 15 and a girl who was 13. My ex wife had been 
     seeing someone else for approximately 1� to two years before I finally
     asked her to make a choice of him or I. I guess I never thought that
     I would not have been the choice, especially after I thought that I
     had given her what she wanted. Yes, I gave her the material things and
     I would take her out sometimes during the week just for a couple of
     drinks and on the weekends for dinner and some dancing. I also took
     her away on one of those sheraton getaway weekends which I had to pull
     teeth for her to go. She made her choice on the thursday before
     Fathers day of June of "88", then she went away with him for the weekend
     in time to return on Sunday to go over to her brothers house to celebrate
     father's day with her family.


      I won't go into detail about what the previous two years were like, but
    I will if asked. It was her choice to leave seeing as I was not willing
    to give up the kids and she figured her friend would not be able to come in
    and live with her. Reason being , my son especially would have probably 
    ended up revolting or leaving and she didn't want that. What was especially
    hard for me to understand, and I know that age is not supposed to be a 
    factor, was that her friend and lover was 62 years old and I and she were
    only 38. His age was also that of the kids grandfather which both my son
    and daughter also had a hard time with. 

      The ex and her friend found a place to live and actually left in mid 
    July. I was devasted. I never in all my years of marriage had I written
    a check to pay a bill or did laundry or planned meals or did large scale
    grocery shopping. I had always worked hard, always worked overtime and
    yes , I would help her around the house by cleaning and vaccuming. I
    went to EAP who referred me to someone in my town and I have been going
    for over a year. The first six to eight months I found myself very moody,
    very alone at times, even though I had some really good supportive friends
    both men and women. When I would socialize, which I needed to do to keep
    myself going, I would find times where physically I would be there with
    friends but mentally I would be miles away. I found it very easy to, as
    I called it, "Check out" and be alone in my own little world. It took 
    every ounce of strength, help from my counselor, patience from those who
    were close to me and loved me to encourage me to go on living. I had
    to go on living, I had my son and my daughter that looked to me to pull
    things together and I couldn't let them down.


      It's been a year and a half since my ex has left. I have endured a lot
    of pain a lot of "what if's" a lot of self pity and low self-esteem. I'm
    happy that so much is behind me. I've learned that I'm not such a bad
    person and I can say that I'm not a bad cook either. I do groceries and
    sometimes I'm doing our laundry at 11:00 at night. I guess what I'm saying
    is that "There is light at the end of the tunnel" , but you have to keep
    moving ahead. You can't live in the past but you've got to learn to enjoy
    life once again. It's tragic to go through a divorce, at least it was for
    me, but you know, there isn't one day that goes by that I don't give thanks
    that I have my kids, that I have some great friends, that I have some 
    people and family that really love me. I wish you well, and don't be 
    afraid to give me a holler if you want to talk or send me mail.


                                              Barry

   p.s. sorry for the lengthy note.....

    I'm just geting back, and want to thank all of you who responded
 to my original note here. To those who offered to talk further with
    me, I will get in touch with you individually, outside of this file.
    Thank you very much for sharing your experiences, and for your
    compassion and support. I'm glad I took the chance and put this
    in here.
    
    Tom   

    re: .12 and .13
    
    Thanks for the book suggestions; I will get and read them both.
    
    And to Tammi (.2), thanks for the other conference suggestions;
    I'll add them; thanks also for the hugs; that was a nice touch.
    
    And thanks again to all for your advice and support.
    
    Tom

    re (.12)	Deborah, I can't seem to find the book you recommended.
    Who is the author?  Thanks for the suggestion.
    
    	I did find a book called "How to get over your addiction to a
    person."  The book was very interesting.  It took a pyschoanalytical
    look at why and how people get addicted to other people.  It also
    went through the process of breaking this addiction.  Although it
    didn't help me get over my feelings it did help me understand them.
    To a person like me that was very important.
    
    	Feeling more confused than ever because I keep setting myself
    up for emotional beatings by my wife.  I guess she needs to justify
    that I never loved her and still don't that is why she fell out of
    love with me.  I destroyed her dreams and hopes of what marriage is
    all about.  How do I deal with something like that when I still love
    her and always have.  I have trouble dealing with being told how I
    felt and how I feel now.  A person can interpret anothers actions any
    way they want, whichever suits their needs at the time, but they have
    no right to force their interpretations on others.
    
    	I seem to be damned if I give her what she wants or if I don't give
    her what she wants.  I feel like I am on an emotional rollercoaster.
    Can she expect me to get out of her life emotional and still care for
    her as a friend and treat her as a friend when I think of her as more
    than a friend?  When do I say "what's it gonna be babe? Yes or no."
    Arrgghh.
    
    /Arun

    
    I'll check for the book tonight !!
    
    Deb
    

    
    
    (I hope this is the book you were looking for)
    
    The name of the book is Crazy Time-Surviving Divorce,
    by Abigail Trafford.  The cover describes the book as
    "A step-by-step guide to understanding the predictable
     emotional passages of men and women after a marriage
     ends"
    
    Paperback=$3.95. Published by Bantam books.
    
    I can't speak highly enough about this little volume. I bought
    it when my husband and I first separated, and it helped me im-
    mensely.
    
    Even though I have since remarried (yes, that subject is addressed
    in the book also!), I think I'll re-read it.
    
    Hope this helps you-I do empathize....
    
    Deb
    

    
    Re . 19
    
    Arun,
     
    Sometime when things are calmer for you I'd appreciate it if you
    could post the name of the author of the "How to stop being
    addicted..." book.
    
    Sounds like one I could use.....
    
    Sympathetically,
    'gail
    

    An old (length of time known, not age) friend called me last night to
    say she's given her husband of 14 years (15 in July) the boot out the
    door.  They've apparently been having problems for several weeks and it
    came to a head a couple nights ago.  I've known the couple for a long
    time. The husband and I have known each other since 7th grade.  The
    wife and I have been friends for about 8 years, though it seems like a
    life time.

    I know the situation from only the wife's perspective, mostly because
    she's more open with her feelings than her husband is and also because
    he'd probably turn to a closer friend before he would me.  This is what
    I've gathered from the 2 hour talk with her last night.

    Husband - tension has been building and he suddenly realized that he's
    unhappy in their marriage. He'll be 34 in May.  He's not physically
    abused her (thank goodness, though I don't think he's the type anyway).
    He's apparently got his eye on a new girl in town; her arrival seems to
    coincide to the feeling of discontentment in the marriage.  She doesn't
    think he's having an affair yet, but it's certainly a possibility (if
    not now, then soon).  He either comes home from work and plops himself
    in front of the tv for 4 hours (without more than a Hi to the Mrs.) or
    he stays out at the local bar until 1:00 in the morning.  His mindset
    of late is that most, if not all, of the past 14 years has been
    anything but enjoyable.

    Wife - that last sentiment above was quite a surprise to her.  They are
    childless for various reasons, though he seems to be blaming her for
    that right now.  She's had enough stress on her recently to choke a
    horse.  Her mom died of cancer last year, her father has been gone for
    several years, her only blood family is a married sister, the couple
    has a business together, she's trying to get a better education (which
    seems to be making him jealous for some unknown reason), and she's
    working ungodly hours for a CPA through the tax season.  She'll be
    getting her Associates Degree in business from a local Vocational -
    Technical College in mid-May.  Her prospects of getting a good job in
    the small town where they live are poor.  She also doesn't want to stay
    there now that they are separating and filing for divorce.

    She called me to see if she could stay with me for a while (length of
    stay undetermined and not important).  She wants to continue with
    school and make her own life, now more than ever.  She also wants to
    get a part time job so that she can finish school.  Her chances of this
    are much better in my part of the state than where she lives now.

    I live in a 2-bedroom apartment and have the space to take her in until
    she gets settled into a job and school here.  Her husband apparently is
    jealous (news to me, also) of the relationship that she and I have.
    Other than a brother/sister-type relationship, we don't have a
    relationship.  It's friendship, pure and simple.  As far as she was
    concerned, she was (mostly) happily married and has never gone looking
    for more.  That's not her intent in moving in with me, either.  She
    needs support, a chance at getting her life to a point where she's
    really happy, and can get a good job that satisfies her.  I'm single
    and not looking for a relationship...I really enjoy being on my own.
    (Seeing what, from my point of view, was a near-perfect marriage fall
    apart, I'm not in a rush to go out and get married anyway).
    
    For economic reasons, I was about to advertise for a male roommate.  I
    don't have anything (I think) against female roommates, but in a living
    situation, I'm more comfortable living with a guy.  I don't know if
    that's old-fashioned attitude or just my nature.  But, because she
    needs someone to turn to and took the chance at turning to me, I'm not
    going to turn her away.  My attitude is that you don't turn your back
    on family, whether blood or not.  Actually, I'd do the same for any of
    my friends in the same situation.

    Well, anyway, what I'm looking for is basic advice.  I know that a fair
    amount of women also read this conference, so I hope I'll get a good
    perspective from both the sexes.  

    She's coming down next weekend to get a start on job hunting.  I've
    advised her to come with a resume in hand and that her best starting
    point is probably an employment agency in the area.  First off, does
    anyone in the Manchester/Merrimack/Nashua area have a recommendation on
    an agency?  I've already dug out the local Help Wanted ads from the
    Sunday NH paper and the Sunday Globe.

    Schools are in abundance in that area so that's not a big issue, though
    a helpful pointer to one of the better colleges would be appreciated,
    preferably one that has evening/weekend courses.  The reality is that
    most jobs are day jobs so her schedule has to be flexible.  NHC in
    Manchester was my first recommendation, but then again I'm biased
    because I graduated from there 12 years ago.  I, too, am looking to
    take a course or two to continue with my degree, so the info would
    benefit us both.

    For those women in the conference who've had to start out on there own
    again:

	  1.  What type of support would you look for, being newly
              separated?
    
	  2.  She's worried about disrupting my (homebody) lifestyle.
	      How do I ease her conscience?

	  3.  How do I support her without being condescending and
	      patronizing?

    For those guys in the conference:

	  1.  Would you feel comfortable having a friend (whose husband
              is also your friend) move in with you?

	  2.  How would you support such a friend?

    I'm basically very easygoing, so I don't really have any real problems
    with my friend coming to stay, regardless of how long.  I could be
    giving up some of my 'freedom' because I don't think I'd be as apt to
    come and go as I please, knowing that she needs somebody around who
    cares.    I'm pretty confident that things will work out for all
    parties involved, but the little what-if's should be thought about.
    "What if she feels like she's crowding me and changing my lifestyle?"
    "What if I, for some unknown reason, begin to feel like she is, even
    though I'm saying I don't think it'll happen."  "Would she be better
    off looking for a female roommate in the area?"  These may be silly and
    there may also be a thousand more silly questions, but I want to
    support her and be able to do what's right for me at the same time.

Wayne    

    (I also posted this reply in HUMAN_RELATIONS.  Perhaps it would be
    useful for the author of .-1 to decide to continue the discussion
    in only one of the two conferences.)
    
    Just a thought...

    Has you're friend considered the implications of initiating the
    separation and then moving in with a male roommate?  The two of you
    know it's platonic, but it may be difficult to prove in court
    should her husband decide to get nasty and attempt to take her to the
    cleaners.  It may be wise for her to consult a lawyer before she
    moves from the marriage domicile.

                                        <<< Note 398.24 by VMSZOO::ECKERT "Jerry Eckert" >>>

>    (I also posted this reply in HUMAN_RELATIONS.  Perhaps it would be
>    useful for the author of .-1 to decide to continue the discussion
>    in only one of the two conferences.)

     Agreed...folks, either mail or a response in HUMAN_RELATIONS is
     much appreciated.

Wayne

    From .23.  It seems to me that if she's given him the boot and he wants
    a split, she should stay put.  Leaving the homestead should not be done
    without the advice of an attorney.  It matters whether the 'stead is
    owned or rented, too.
    
    Just my .02
    ed