Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I am not sure if this will answer your question but for me when
    I became a father I really didn't know what I was suppose to do.
    I didn't take any college courses to prepare myself for the role
    or have any specialized training - so the way I worked it out was
    to use my childhood as a model of things I liked as a kid and things
    I didn't like as a kid with my folks.  
    
    Turns out that one of the things I didn't like to much was my father
    didn't spend alot of time with us 'kids'.  So I ended up spending
    much more time with my daughter then my father had spent with me
    
    I guess experience(s) is the best teacher.
    
    
    							bm_
    BTW: my daughter's name is the same but with two l's.
    

 Michele-

 I think a number of things have contributed to this phenomenon.

 1) people get divorced more often. Usually, this means a father and his
children are separated. People seem to value things more often when they lose 
them. Since Ralph sees how hurt John was by losing custody of his kids during
his divorce, he vows to make sure that he takes advantage of _his_ kids lest
the same thing happen to him.

 2) Women are not the sole caretakers that they once were. Many women work
now, leaving household duties to be divvied up. This includes caring for the
children. 

 3) Men are not as stereotyped as being the tough guy as much as before. It's
no longer unmasculine to be seen nurturing your kids.

 There's a stab at it.

 The Doctah

    Michelle, I don't think things have changed that much, but there
    certainly is a greater opportunity today for men to take an active role
    in the life of their children.
                                  
    There have always been fathers who took an active interest in their
    children, and there have always been fathers who did not. My
    father always was interested in, and took a very active part in my
    life and my brother's life. We did many things together. I'm 54, 
    so this was back in the 1940s and 1950s. 

    And I've always taken an active interest in my two daughters'
    activities. We still do as much together as we can, even
    though they are both in their 20s and one is married. 

    However, there have been some changes over the years that have
    made it easier for fathers to spend more time with their children. 

    1. The work week, for most people, is shorter. (I remember when my
    father switched from a 48-hour week to  40 hours, and started
    getting a 2-day weekend. And I remember him telling me about
    60-hour weeks.) 

    2. People get more vacation time - it used to be nothing, or one
    week a year. 

    3. Business travel is by plane, and business trips are shorter. (I
    realize this is not applicable to everybody. My father used to
    take business trips by car, and would be gone for 2-3 weeks at a
    time.) 

    4. The most important change I see, and it can be viewed as a
    spin-off from the others) has been in freeing up the
    roles of mothers and fathers, as mentioned by The Doctah. Sex
    roles are no longer quite so stereotyped. Marriage and parenting
    are seen as equal partnerships. Men are not expected to be the
    unemotional sole breadwinners and disciplinarians, and women no
    longer are restricted to being housewives and caretakers. Both
    sexes are freer to be what they want. This is reflected in the
    workplace, too, (at least in Digital) where nobody raises an
    eyebrow because a man takes the day off to care for a sick child.
    (In my father's time, unless the kid was dying, this would be
    unacceptable - work came first. Women cared for the children.)

    I disagree with The Doctah, who sees the threat of divorce and
    possible loss of custody as a goad to fathers to spend time with
    their kids. Many people, particularly men, get divorced because,
    among other things, they don't *want* to spend time with the kids.

    Divorces themselves usually result in both parents, through
    distance, court order, or both working, having less time to spend
    with the kids. 

    I also disagree with The Doctah who thinks that when both parents
    are working, there is more time to spend with the kids. On the
    contrary, when both parents are working there are so many
    household duties that neither parent has as time to be involved
    with the kids as they would like. 

    re: .0
    
    I'm not sure if I can answer your question, from the perspective of
    'men with 3 year old children', since my youngest son could have a '10
    year  old' had he not been careful or lucky. 
    
    But, for people  with adult children, like myself, MY father was
    working 6 days a week, up to 12 hours a day, basically for peanuts
    compared to todays standards. He was openly 'macho' (a 'real' man) and
    needed to stop by 'for a few' on his way home. 
    
    Basically, then, I was raised by a dutch uncle, and my older sisters,
    since my mother also needed to work. 
    
    By todays Standards, and here in DEC particularly, noone 'needs to feel
    macho' to be part of 'The Mens World'; and the workweek basically
    centers around a 40 hour week. DEC as a responsible Corporation openely
    advocates 'active' parenting by both (all) parents and their respective
    SO's. 

        
    That, i think, capsulizes the difference between 'Then' and 'Now'.
    
    

   RE:  Note 362.3     BY: TOPDOC::SLOANE "Opportunity knocks softly"

>>    I disagree with The Doctah, who sees the threat of divorce and
>>    possible loss of custody as a goad to fathers to spend time with
>>    their kids. Many people, particularly men, get divorced because,
>>    among other things, they don't *want* to spend time with the kids.

    
    	I really dislike the above statement, which in my opinion
    	sounds like the author is suggesting fathers get divorced
    	BECAUSE of their children. I fought long and damn hard to
    	get my son with me. I really resent anyone suggesting that
    	might have been the reason!! I hope it was not the intent
    	of the author to imply this.
    
    	G_B

>   	I really dislike the above statement, which in my opinion
>    	sounds like the author is suggesting fathers get divorced
>    	BECAUSE of their children.

 Well, some do. Obviously you are not one of them.

>    I disagree with The Doctah, who sees the threat of divorce and
>    possible loss of custody as a goad to fathers to spend time with
>    their kids. Many people, particularly men, get divorced because,
>    among other things, they don't *want* to spend time with the kids.

 It doesn't work the same way for every guy. I was only relating the experiences
that I have personally witnessed or had described to me.

>    I also disagree with The Doctah who thinks that when both parents
>    are working, there is more time to spend with the kids. 

 I think you misinterpreted my statement. I don't think there is more time
to spend. Actually, there is less. However, the number of things that must
be done does not change. Since it is unreasonable to expect a woman who is 
working full time to also take care of the children by herself, men usually
take up some of the slack created by mom's absence. In order to make things work
out best for all parties involved, splitting tasks is necessary. Some of the
tasks that the father ends up doing have to do with taking care of the kids,
eg feeding them, bathing them, etc. These things would not normally be in
dad's domain if mom were not working (in the traditional household).

 The Doctah

    Re: -.1                       
    
    Perhaps the wording was too strong - it would be more accurate to
    say "Some people..." instead of "Many .." 
     
    Getting away from the kids is surely not the main reason most people
    get divorced. But it is for some people. I know at least three women
    who have gotten divorces because their husbands all claimed that the
    children "tied them down," took up too much of their time or their
    wife's time, or were too much work, etc. The women all obtained
    custody, and the fathers had only minimal and perfunctory contact
    with their children after the divorce.
                                             
    These men (at least the two I knew - I never met the 3d) are obviously
    irresponsible and self-centered, and certainly aren't representative of
    all fathers who get divorced. (Maybe I just have peculiar friends. I'm
    also happy to report that all three of the women have since remarried
    and are quite happy the second time around.)  
                                          
    In no way was I implying that this is a general characteristic of all
    divorcing fathers. I'm sorry if you took my comments as a personal
    offense. 
    
    Bruce                                         

    I think fathering changed for me because (at the time BD) Sue went
    to work at night and I had the duties of feeding, bathing, bedtime
    and story telling.  I dont know if this is true in general but it
    appears when more women started entering the work place shareing
    and rearing of kids and other duties became more common.  I have
    to admit that this experience was a real good thing that happened
    to me.  I had some great perpatory work for when we did get divorced
    and I took over full time duties of mr. Mom.
    
    Jim

    I was always quite involved with my daughter's life - even more
    so when my ex-wife moved out when Sarah was 2. I raised her alone
    until she was 7.
    
     I think the main reason I am involved is that my father wasn't
    - and I missed that. Because of that experience I recognize the
    value of caring parents. For a while I was "TOO" involved - Sarah
    got almost 100% of my time, but this has gradually changed over
    the last 3 years.
    
     
    Gregg

    Attitudes HAVE changed.  I can only relate from the British point
    of view, but most of the 'older generation' that I am familiar with
    are such Cheuvanists(sp) you would not believe.
    
    The attitude of men has changed in that they do care about fair
    play, whereas once upon a time they would do their day at the office
    or factory and consider that only THEY had worked hard.
    
    Even today, my in-laws are so unbalanced in this way.  He will go
    and drive a van for the company he works for.  She on the other
    hand will start her first job at 3:00 am, then go to her next job
    and then be home to look after the house, then get Dinner ready
    for all and sundry, looking after house, home, family and finally
    getting to bed at whatever hour she finishes, but rarely before
    9:00 pm.  That's one hell of a day.
    
    She doesn't NEED to work like this, but has become so used to it
    over the many years of their marriage that she feels that she must
    maintain her independence by doing everything for herself.  This
    is what I would consider 'typical' British!!!
    
    She doesn't need him today, but he certainly NEEDS her, he would
    not know how to cope without her.  She knows it, and he certainly
    does.
    
    My mother and father split when I was very young, so I never knew
    him at all!  But considering the rest of my family, he would have
    had the same attitudes as above.
    
    This is NOT isolated, believe me.  I have a fairly small family
    because of the separation and later divorce and the fact that my
    mother is German and her relations were/are in Germany.  But when
    I got married, I can see NOT ONE exception within my wifes family
    to the above.  Her uncles are all the same.
    
    It seems that the majority of changes have/are occuring in this
    generation.  Women are not content with being the "lady of the house",
    and why the hell should they be.
    
    Society and schooling also contribute to the attitudes.  My wife
    was taught needlework, cooking, how to iron and all sorts of other
    s**t AT SCHOOL!!!  She would rather have been leader of the gang
    (in fact she was that too <grin>).  Seriously, the moulds are made
    at such an early age, but most people today actually think for
    themselves rather than think with the herd!!
    
    I hope I haven't insulted anyone with these generalisations, I KNOW
    that there are acceptions to ALL rules, so the above is simple what
    I have seen for myself!
    
    Both MEN and WOMEN are more liberated today!  And bloody good job
    too!
    
    

    My own mom has told me on some ocassions that no one can love a child
    more than their mom.  Her saying that would always cause an arguement
    between her and me.  It seemed to confirm that my own dad didn't care
    about me.  And that my husband didn't our children.  And it also seemed
    to put a burden on me in that I really had to love my kids more than
    anyone else possibly could.  And it created doubts for me because of my
    background, of my own father's love for me and my 3 sisters.
    
    It made me doubt my husband's commitments and love also.  I wish she
    truly didn't believe herself sometimes.  You know?