Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Sorry, but if your old bills were run up before you began sharing
    living quarters, I don't feel he's responsible to help you pay them,
    (which he would be doing by contributing more than 1/2 of the apt.
    costs), unless he wants to. Your joint responsibilities are your
    living arrangements, what you ran up previously is yours alone.
    Just because he makes more than you do doesn't automatically make
    his contribution more. You could discuss it with him, but its not
    really his responsibility.
    
    In a similiar vein, when my wife sold Avon, the business was totally
    separate from joint living expenses. It was her business and she
    alone was responsible for it, joint money would not bail a bad month
    out. Either the business would make it on its own, or she would
    drop it. Each individual has to be responsible for their personal
    debts.
    
    As a reverse to your situation, if your boyfriend went out and spent
    $60K on a Porsche, and needed 2 jobs to pay for it, do you think
    you should have to contribute more to your joint living expenses
    to pay for his car?
    
    Eric

    Well, now Ms. Cook, you pose an interesting question.   
    
    Your boyfriend has absolutely no _responsibility to pay for any
    of your bills. He has a responsibility to pay for all of his own
    bills, as well as his share of the jointly accrued bills. If he
    _wants_ to contribute to your bills, he is obviously free to do
    so, but he is bound neither by law nor morally to pay your bills.
    
    An interesting question is what are your bills like compared to
    your earning power? Clearly, if you have champagne taste with a
    lite beer pocketbook, you are on your own. If you simply make so
    little that just _surviving_ is impossible, that is another story
    altogether. It really depends on how you spend your money, not just
    how much money you spend.
    
    FWIW- When I first started living with my wife (pre-marriage), she
    was a single mother with two teenage children and a low paying job.
    I certainly helped out alot with her bills. I inherited quite abit
    of debt when I married her, and I still pay alot more than my share
    of the bills. I was not legally or morally bound to help her out;
    I did it out of the goodbness of my (larger than it usually seems)
    heart.
    
    I hate to leave you with an "it all depends" answer, but it really
    does all depend on the circumstances. Rest assured that I understand
    how a person feels in a similar circumstance. Perhaps if you will
    share a few more details, I will be able to give you a more concrete
    answer.
    
    The Doctah
    
    ps- He should help around the house more, since he has more free
    time, but that is only my opinion.

   re: 318.0 <PLANET::COOK>

       I live with three other guys and do a similar thing with the bills.
   For your situation, it depends on weather you look at your living situation
   as a marriage (ie... living as one) or as a roomate-roomate co-op (living
   as independent of each other).

       In my roommate situation, the four of us make different incomes weekly.
   One of my roommates even holds down a second job in order to meet his end of
   the bills.  There is no expectation for the others to help out because each
   are receiving the same amount of benefit for the situation so each is
   expected to carry an equal share.

   >Do you think he should contribute more? Do you think he is right in just
   >contributing his share? 

          It seem to me from .0 that each of you want to hold on to a sence of
   independence from each other.  If that is the case, that I don't feel that
   he should contribute more that you just because he makes more, after all,
   you both are receiving an equal amount of benefit.

   >Do you think I should be working so many hours to pay my bills?

       That is the price of independence.

   Tony

    re: .0
    
    Your old bills are yours. That's life.
    
    Now, the current situation. "IF" you are 'basically' roomates sharing
    common quarters, then 50-50 sounds right. 
    
    If you're SO's dedicated to a "oneness", typically typified as in
    a marriage; two schools of thought prevail. 
    
    50-50 is one school of thought. 
    
    Another opinion (which I read in a personal finance magazine) is this:
    If the people have a "living together" arrangement (SO's); then the
    common living expenses CAN be prorated against current salary;
    particularly if the salary differences are large. 
    
    Have you yet discussed this with the person you are living with? 
    
    To me, the question is hinged on: What is the situation, and how does
    the "other" person see our situation ? 
    
    Personally, I have experienced the 50-50 situation with inequitable
    salaries, because that's the way she wanted it. 
    
    Now, the situation is 100% my side, because that's the way we see it,
    given the current situation. (Also a different person.) 
    
    I think situation money-management is like situation comedies. You need
    to be part of it to see the whole view, and communicate those views
    with the other  person. Then together negotiate some agreeable middle
    ground. (easier said than done, but if its a 'in love' situation, and
    the other is also compassionate, it might be easier than anticipated). 
    
    Bob E. 
  
    
    
    

    
    
    (a feminine viewpoint)
    
    This is a lesson I learned the hard way:
    
    Always live within your means.  Never become dependent on the
    income of another to support your own lifestyle.  Be prepared
    at any point in time to pay your own way, totally.
    
    Should you work all those hours to pay off your bills?  Probably
    you should not have incurred debts in the first place that required
    working an extra job (I don't know your particular situation and
    it's entirely possible that an emergency situation resulted in high
    debt/income ratio).  Since you do owe this money to creditors,
    than you are of course obligated to repay them.       
    
    Deborah
    
    

    I tend to agree with .3 and .4 : it depends on your relationship
    with your room-mate. When I moved in with my wife_to_be, we had
    different incomes so I paid more bills than she did. It didn't bother
    me, we were planning to build a life together.
    
    If that is your case, I don't think taking on extra jobs is the
    way to do it : if you are spending all your time out working, I
    fail to see how you can build up a solid relationship which may
    lead to a life together. I preferred to contribute more, have less
    money and more time with my girl-friend rather than to have money
    and no time with her to spend it !
    
    If independance is your key objective, then, yes, you should pay
    half the bills, even if it means working like a donkey!
    
    Philippe.
    

    
    I think I neglected to mention a little background on our living
    situation.
    
    I moved away from home about 2 years ago. I rented the second floor
    of a house. Little by little, my boyfriend started spending more
    and more time with me, until he was rarely at his own house (he
    lived with his parents at the time). I then moved to an apartment
    in Acton, in a complex. At that time, he moved some of his stuff
    in, and never stayed at his Mom's house anymore. He never contributed
    to any of my bills, and didn't even pay for the groceries. He used
    to run up rather high phone bills, and did not quite pay back enough
    to cover them.
    
    So I feel that I probably would never have fallen behind if I weren't
    paying the living expenses for 2 people for a year.
    
    Now we have signed a joint lease, so now he finds himself a little
    more responsible. But wasn't he responsible before as well, even
    though his name wasn't on the lease??
    
    

    
    
    We live together, in an intimate relationship, which we intend on
    holding onto forever. It is not a roomate situation. We have even
    gone so far as to start planning a future together, where we will
    live, etc... 
    
    Send me any new opinions you have ...
    
    

    It appears that you are "playing house" ie being more than roommates.
    This makes a big difference. Since you indicate that he was sort
    of leeching off of you for a while, it seems more obvious that he
    should kick in a little more to make up for it. 
    
    I don't think that it's unreasonable for you to ask him to help
    out a little more, since he makes more money since he has enjoyed
    the fruits of your labor in the past. I'm not sure what the best
    way to approach him is, though. It may be a turning point in your
    relationship- for better or worse. You run the risk of "losing"
    him, but what is the value of one who won't contribute his fair
    share? 
    
    In any case, since you are working full time plus, he should do
    more than his share of things around the house. With only two of
    you living there, it can't be too difficult unless one or both of
    you are sloppy. Cleaning up after adults is far easier than cleaning
    up after a mixture of adults and kids.
    
    Let us know how you make out. We care.
    
    The Doctah

    It sounds to ME like there are a lot more issues between you and
    your SO than Money.  For a starter, how about the C word
    (Communication)?  If you are planning a life together, you should
    be discussing financial roles and responsibilities with Each Other,
    rather than with Noters.  Or have you discussed the situation with
    him, and he's said he Doesn't feel obligated for back expenses (in
    which case, these responses may be fuel for the fire, but your "house"
    may burn down)?                 
    
    I would strongly recommend the two of you sitting down and discussing
    the situation, and then deciding on a course of action.  You might
    get all your facts together first, such as the date that he moved
    in with you, and a listing of all expenses incurred from that date
    to the time when he started sharing expenses.  Tell him that you
    feel that he should *Willingly* agree to pay half of those expenses,
    less anything he was still paying his mother for room and board.
    
    If he doesn't agree to this, then *YOU* have to decide what to do,
    and what effect this will have on your relationship.
    
    I hope you are able to work things out.
    
    Jack

    Did you talk to him?  If not then it is the time for you to
    communicate.  Communication will tell you alot about him and help
    you to make decision.  I don't live with anybody, but when I was
    in college, I had two jobs to pay for tuitions, I know how difficult
    it is.  Good luck, and let us know the outcome.  COMMUNICATION is
    the key.  

    
    We do communicate, about just about everything. Money is a problem,
    and always has been, between us. He wants his freedom, and he wants
    to be able to buy food and gas at work. And have a little left over.
    He feels it bad when I take my $200 from him every week, nevermind
    taking more. But then I end up rolling up spare change and eating
    pasta for lunch just so I don't starve. I've been to doctors in
    the past, who have diagnosed me as being anemic. And they have all
    said that I should be getting 10-12 hours sleep a night, AND I should
    not be working more than 35 hours a week. I have been taking 3 iron
    pills a day, sometimes more, just to keep my energy up. 
    The problem is that he is very unresponsible when it comes to money.
    It isn't his fault. He was brought up not knowing the value of a
    dollar. He was the youngest and the last one to leave home, and
    everything was always handed to him on a silver platter. He never
    wanted for anything. he still has a lot of growing up to do and
    a lot of responsibility to gain before he will be able to know what's
    gonig on financially.. I do my best to control all the finances
    and try my hardest not to push him too hard. I hate fighting with
    him because I always seem to be hurt more than him... so i try at
    all costs to avoid fighting... and money is the number one thing
    we fight about. I even go so far as to not get the mail on fridays
    and saturdays, just so there is one less thing to worry about over
    the weekend. 
    
    The situation is going nowhere, and won't for a little while yet..
    does anyone out there know of an easier way to get money?? I have
    next to no credit, so it is really hard to get a loan, bt if anyone
    knows of a place that offers loans to people trying to establish
    some credit, or if you know of a place i could get a credit card
    without a whole lot of credit, i would appreciate it.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    

    re .12  WADR, sounds like the problem is a lot more than $$, it's
    compatability

 Miss Cook,

 I understand what you are going through. You are not going to be able  to
change him. If any changing is going to be done, it has to be done on his 
part. It sounds to me that he is rather selfish. Everybody wants to have 
their cake and eat it too, but reality is rarely that simple.

 Knowing your medical limitations, he ought to be more willing to help you out.
If he really cares about you, he will care about your health, happiness, and
sanity. I am not convinced he is aware of your value. It sounds like you
are doing all of the sacrificing in the relationship. It  hardly sounds fair.
I am aware that  we are only getting your version of the story, but if it
is accurate, he has a long way to go.

 One word of caution, be careful how much you use any credit cards that you
may obtain. One thing you don't want to do is to motrgage your future in the
hope that he'll come around, only to find out the he doesn't,and the relation-
ship crumbles.

 I would definitely sit him down and explain to him what your feelings are.
If he "has a cow" (my daughter's expression), then you may want to think about
his seeming incompatability with you. If he really cares about you, he should
be willing to make some sort of compromise. If he isn't, you have to decide
if he's still worth being with.

The Doctah

    re: .12  (& .0)
    
    There are a number of thoughts and questions that come to mind
    in reading your entries.  Time constraints force me to be brief
    for the moment, so I apologize in advance if the bulleted items
    aren't entirely clear.
    
     o	One issue might be separating issues for the purpose of better	
    	integrating them as a couple - roomate behavior vs. live-in-loved-
    	one behavior (imo, the latter is at issue).
    
     o	I believe your health condition should have radical impact on 
    	the equation; that doesn't appear to be a mutual belief and
    	that signals trouble to me.
    
     o	I accept that you communicate, but it sounds like the issues
    	are left open or unresolved; clearly you're unhappy with the
    	current situation.  I know what that means to you. . .what does
    	it mean to him?  My roomate's happiness is of some importance
    	to me, but I'm unlikely to spend tremendous resources trying
    	to help him/her through; my SO's happiness is a different matter
    	altogether.
    
     o	It sounds to me as if he should be the house accountant; if
    	he needs to learn financial (among other) responsibility, how's
    	it gonna help if you're in charge of keeping the wolf from the
    	door?  Besides, then he can't feel bad at you every week for
    	the $200; he might even begin to check into how forking over
    	$200/week feels to you.  
    
    	[aside: if this route *is* chosen, make sure the bills are in his 
    	 name; some people seem to need to get into a bit of credit
    	 trouble to learn responsibility - perhaps he needs to see a 
    	 few dunning notices in his name to hear the message.]
    
    	[grain of salt:  I personally believe very strongly that every
    	 able person should live on her/his own for *at least* one year.]
    
    o	� I do my best to control all the finances and try my hardest not 
    	� to push him too hard. I hate fighting with him because I always 
    	� seem to be hurt more than him... so i try at all costs to avoid 
    	� fighting... 
    
    	It's difficult to know where to begin here. . .I think there
    	are indications here of several fairly significant problems.
    	As Dana (?) suggested, it appears that there's a good deal
    	more going on than just a "simple" money proble.  (fwiw, money
    	has long been one of the key focal points for couple troubles
    	and is only rarely "the problem")
    
    	On the other hand, one of the most common human problems
    	(for individuals and groups) is control; who in the relationship
    	is controlling what and why?  Who's giving up control and
    	why?  Are people trying to control things beyond their control?
    
    	It may be hurting to fight him. . .what's it doing to you?  Come 
    	a point, I think that "avoiding fighting" becomes synonymous with
    	"surrender".
    
     o	Finally, I think (repeat, imo) extending credit would be an
    	unwise move at this time (possible exception, a loan from a 
    	family member which can carry it's own set of risks).  If I
    	were a doctor (or played one on TV) I'd strongly recommend
    	you spend some time with a trusted counselor (lots of different
    	people fill this bill; the main thing is to find someone who
    	helps you clarify what's important to you and helps you feel
    	right about yourself and your relationships.)  
    
    	It may be that a commercial loan turns out to be the right thing 
    	to do, but from your entries, it sounds to me as if fast moves with 
    	contractual obligations could be very risky at the moment.
    
    And by all means, if it serves you well, let us know how it's going;
    as others have said, we care.
    
    Steve
    
    
    

    
    
    I hate to say this, but it sounds like this guy is just mooching
    off you.  If he truly cared about you, he would do everything
    to help you improve your medical condition.  Instead he is being
    selfish and allowing your condition to get worse.  
    
    As far as his problems dealing with money.  It IS his fault that
    he can not handle money.  He does not have the maturity level to
    be financially responsible for himself.  You let him get you 
    into a financial bind before you moved in together.  And it is
    his responsibilty to help you get out of that bind that he helped
    cause.
    
    This guy sounds like the type of guy commonly referred to as a 
    Mama's boy.  (Guys please dont come back at me on that!)
    His mom took care of him until you came along.  And now he is
    in your household and you are taking care of him.  (please
    dont assume that I mean that his father had no impact on taking
    care of him, but mom probably did most of the "homey" stuff
    i.e. laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc.)  This would explain his
    lack of help around the house.  Beleive me I know these guys cause
    my older brother is one of them.  He lets mom take care of him
    instead of taking care of himself.
    
    I suggest you take a good hard look at your relationship.  Ask yourself
    what you want from the relationship and ask him what he wants from
    it.  There is no way in hell you are going to change this guy.
    Change comes from within.  He has to make a conscious decision to
    change.  Until he does there is nothing you can do to change him.
    If you can't accept him as he is then look elsewhere for someone
    who can give you what you need.
    
    Michele

    
    
    There is a lot of love in our relationship, and a lot of caring.
    He does care about me, a lot. He has made a lot of changes over
    the past year, and I have watched as he has started to grow and
    mature. He helps out sometimes, just not enough in my view. It's
    hard to talk about things like that when we get so little time
    together. I like our time to be happy time. And when we are happy
    I feel so much better than I have with anyone else, and believe
    me I have had my share of relationships... good and bad. There are
    a lot of problems in any relationship, and we have BOTH worked pretty
    hard at getting by alot of problems we had in the beginning. A big
    step for him was to put his name on my lease at this apartment.
    He is very close to his mother, and never really wanted to admit
    that he had moved away and "left her". That was a big barrier between
    us in the beginning, and one that he has now finally gotten over.
    His mom was always number one in his life, and I was always number
    2, now it's the other way around. He wants some freedom financially,
    and I understand that. I want financial freedom too. They are my
    bills, and I should be the one paying for them, and I guess I take
    as much as I reasonably should from him. He does buy a lot of the
    food lately, because he sees how hard I'm working and how little
    I have, and he has said a couple of times that he is going to get
    a part time job, he just hasn't followed through on it. I don't
    know if he could handle a second job any easier than I can. He is
    asleep by 9 at night. But, then again, I would probably be too if
    I weren't working. 
    
    He is a very moody person, and so am I, and that is a problem we
    are still working through. We have to get a little more used to
    each other's moods, and learn to deal a little better with them.
    We can't keep taking things personally when they aren't meant that
    way.
    
    We are both very passionate people too. And both of us are really
    into our work, and both of us are very creative people. And that
    causes some problems once in a while. When you both want the same
    thing in different ways it's hard to compromise. 
    
    I guess that is what it comes down to.. compromise. He and I both
    have to learn how to do that. I find myself a very jealous, envious,
    and angry person sometimes. Everything has always come so easy for
    him and so hard for me that it just feels a little unfair to me
    sometimes. I worked hard to get where I am right now. At 20 years
    old, I have a new car, a nice apartment, and a well-paying job in
    a major corporation. But I have worked for it. He has a nice car
    (his parents co-signed for the loan), he wouldn't have an apartment
    if it weren't for me, and he has a well-paying job because his dad
    knew someone in construction and got him a job. I had to wait an
    awful long time to finally buy a car off the lot. My parents wouldn't
    cosign a loan, not because they thought I was unrespnsible. They
    just didn't want me to have a loan to pay. I was pushed out of my
    parents house by emotional circumstances I would rather not indulge
    to you. There is a personal problem in my family that caused me
    to feel better leaving than staying. I have tried my hardest to
    gain credit, it just isn't too easy nowadays. He applied for the
    very first time at Montgomery Wards and was issued a $700 credit
    limit. I was turned down. Everything has always come to him like
    that, though. He is a subcontractor, and never puts money away for
    taxes. When tax time comes, he always sweats it out. 3 years ago,
    his Mom helped him out, 2 years ago, I helped him out, and last
    year he was lucky enough to find an accountant who finagled him
    into getting money back when he probably should have owed a lot.
    This year, i dunno....
    
    Maybe I am the selfish one. I just want for once to be able to do
    something for myself, to be able to walk in a store and buy something
    I like, rather than thinking, gee I could be spending that money
    on something a lot more useful. Maybe I am the one sacrificing more
    than I should. . i don't know. Maybe I am the one who needs psychiatric
    help. He says that sometimes the thought crosses his mind that I
    am a hypochondriac, because it seems I am always sick. I don't know.
    I really don't, and when I am put under a lot of stress, I tend
    to doubt myself a little.
    
    

    Assuming your version is accurate then you are being used.  Don't
    try to solve your financial problems by signing for loans.  If he
    can not help you out then it is time to.....dump...him. Since a
    relationship is a two way street.  If he does not want to sacrifice
    then what good is that to keep the relationship? 
    
    Wish you all the courages and wisdoms to handle the situation
    

	I was in this situation at one time.  Some of the things I did
	was:   (Everything was in my name in the beginning)

	Telephone - I told him I needed couldn't afford the phone bill, and 
	if he wanted to keep it, to tranfer the bill into his name
	Otherwise, we'd have to go without a phone for a while.

	Cable - same deal as above. 

	Food - You buy the meats and I'll buy the other 'stuff'.  (We
	went to the grocery store seperately also).  If he didn't buy
	meats we would eat vegies for a week, and I'd buy less of other
	stuff the next week (well, I thought you'd buy more meats because
	you didn't get any last week)

	I got him to put some of the less important bills in his name	
	so he could make or break it on his own name without endangering
	my credit (what little I had then).  and I did it in a round
	about way so he thought he was "helping" me instead of pulling
	more of his own weight.  

	Good luck.  Remember your not his mother.  You are not responsible
	for making sure he is comfortable and protected from the world.

	/Robin

	

    i think most people can be grouped into two types... givers and
    takers.  some (very few, i think) have a balance of those traits.
    
    having seen only your side of this story (which sounds to me to
    be very believable)..it is apparent you are a giver and he is a
    taker.  it also seems that neither of you have a lot of the *other*
    trait.  
    
    relationships between folks with the opposite characteristics seem
    not to be healthy and in my opinion are not going to last long..
    unless the giver is willing to give all and just "survive".
    
    i think you should ask yourself (with help from a counsellor, i
    believe) what would make *you* happy.  it seems to me that you are
    "giving" constantly to make him happy and to maintain the peace.
    
    but, you only have "just so much to give"...
    
    so, may i recommend two books?  they are:
    OUT OF APPLES?  by Lee Schnebly  published by Fisher Books
    FEEL FREE by David Viscott, M.D. published by Pocket
    
    tony
    

    
    Hi,I'm not usually into notes but  happened upon this on Saturday.
    My initial response, I know I may get a lot of negative from this
    but here goes. Living together is not a good situation most of the
    time. I have found in my own experience and those of others that
    it sets up expectations as if the couple were married. This gets
    confusing, because you are not and the rules *are* different. Some
    of those *rules* for lack of better terms in marriage are solving
    financial problems together, this is expected. Helping each other,
    working as a team. TALKING!!!  However, living together, well, there
    really are no rules, just a lot of expectations that sometimes are
    not even voiced to each other but are assumed are going to happen.
    
    It sounds as though, in this situation, that you are being taken
    advantage of - it's a blunt thing to say but based on your notes
    and not knowing this guy or you...  You said he has come along way,
    that is great but... doyou really want to go through the waiting
    process of his needed growth and perhaps sacrifice your own needs
    while he is getting there. Whatif he never does? People don't usually
    change, you get what you see unless they are highly motivated to
    change because THEY want to and not because someone else wants them
    to.  It sounds very much like you are expecting a lot more than
    he is willing to give right now, you could battle it out and perhaps
    get more but resentment could come with that too...Living together????
    At what price, marriage perhaps but living together can be extremely
    self-sacrificing for either or both parties depending on the people.
    
    If you lived alone, at least when you made extra $$$ and got set
    up financially, you could take care of your own needs... Tensions
    would be far greater and you could have your relationship too right-
    you could both get used to taking care of yourselfs and then if
    it was right to get together forever...it may work better.  I don't
    know if I have digressed too much but I wanted to share from my
    own experience, others, and lots and lots of articles on living
    together... There are not many positive things said about it.
    
    

    I'm reading this Sunday morning....so first .."May the Peace be
    with you."
    
    I'd like to suggest two thrusts beyond this note (Which, by the
    way has generally offered good, and probably painful advise).
    
    Digital's EAP program has some great people who are professionally
    trained as counselors.  Their main role is supposed to be a diagnosis
    and referral. But I've found I've good a lot of supurb advise. 
    And the price is right - NO COST.  In addition most of Digital's
    health plans will cover 20 or so counselling sessions per year.
    Think of it as a fringe benefit - use it!
    
    Second, your relationship - as the giver, "make things right", work
    to change the other person, etc ....PLUS your comment about leaving
    your own home because of "dysfunctional" problems - SET OFF BELLS!
    I suggest a book to you "Struggle For Intimacy" by Janet G. Woititz.
    It's $6.95 at many bookstores. It, and many other similar books
    are available at a speciality bookstore in Milford, MA called the
    Sober Camel. It explains a concept known as the "Adult Child". I
    think you would find it enlightening. There are self help groups
    meeting weekly in many community around the Adult Child issues and
    the reclaiming and healing processes.                
    
    

    Well, I'm not going to read 22 replies to see if someone has my
    opinion.
    
    Rather here's my opinion:
    
    	Helping out in anyway is not asking to much.  If your sharing
    your lifes together and trying to fullfill each others lifes, than
    to me, that means pitching in and going the extra half mile, or
    dropping in the extra 50 bucks, or going with a want, so the other
    can have a necessity.
    
    MY wife and I try to share everything...  I try to help around the
    house, she works too, and someone has to be there for the kids,
    the dog, etc..  We're a team, and there's no 50/50 in team work.
    
    You do what you can, when you can, and you do it with out regret
    or compensation.  God, when I think of it, I'd have to go some to
    match my wifes contribution to our home.  With out her, we'd all
    be lost in the fog.  Showing how much you appreciate someone doesn't
    always mean you have to knock your self out, but when the going
    gets tuff, the tuff really do get going.

    Don't be hard on  your "old-man" though..  Not all men feel the
    same way.  Just some of us really do feel sharing a life means sharing
    the cost. 

    
    Well, all your advice has really helped me out. And I've really
    looked at my relationship lately, and realized that despite all
    his faults he loves me with all his heart, and truly believes he
    is helping me out. He is getting a part time job so that I can quit
    mine, or at least work a little less time at it. 
    
    And this valentines day has been extra special. We had a nice long
    romantic evening on Friday, followed by a weekend shopping spree
    buying all the extras we need to make our apt a home. And now it
    feels like everything is coming together. I have also noticed a
    change in his feelings towards me. I feel they have deepened a lot.
    He sees how hard I work to make ends meet and I think he appreciates
    it a lot more than I ever knew. And last night he came home with
    a dozen long stem red roses. They are so beautiful, and he just
    made me the happiest girl on earth. 
    
    Thanks to you all for helping me to think out the situation. I am
    so glad that there was a happy ending to this story. I think I'm
    on my way to happier days....
    
    

    So glad to hear that you are happier.  I know how depressed it could
    get being in the situation you WERE in.  I'm in one myself,almost
    exactly like your's but more complicated.  I am beginning to agree,that
    living with someone before marriage could be the wrong thing to
    do especially living with someone that was in a marriage that they
    didn't even want to get in,but did because a child came.  Dealing
    with his ex. gets to me more than anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    She has it so easy- her mother pays for most everything for her
    1st child by another marriage,my guy pays (with MY credit
    cards)EVERYTHINGfor his child,I even paid for her(the child)insurance
    and her mother keeps her.  She lives 35 miles from us but every
    weekend he goes and gets her.  What gets me more is that his WIFE
    is married again and she's not divorced from my guy.  He won't get
    one because he says he can't afford it and all of his friends that
    have one pays a lot of money for support.  Too, he wants custody
    of his daughter, she difinately would have a better home life,but
    he doesn't think he'd be granted that.  He may even think that if
    does have to pay support his daughter wouldn't get any of it and
    then he would have to pay 'double' for her.  What even gets me more
    is that her new mother-in-law pays for their rent and food!!!!!
    I really wish I could go out and indulge for myself than for others.
    I'm a giver and he gives too but takes _more_   Boy,what did I get
    myself into?  Don't sign any loans or get credit cards unless you're
    financially able to handle them.  I wish I never had any!!!
    
    good luck in your relationship-  hope it keeps getting better and
    better!!!!!!!!!!
    Andrea

    I'd like to also add that by reading the replies I am able to look
    at my situation a bit better.  I definetly have learned a lesson.
    Andrea

    
    	Andrea,
    
    	 You stated that your SO's ex is re-married and she hasn't
    	got a divorce from the first marriage?
    
    	 Why not report her and atleast have her out of your hair 
    	for a short while?

    re.25 & 27
    
    Andrea,
    
    I agree somewhat with .27 but the situation does not ring true.
    
    They are either divorced and she as legally remarried OR they are
    still married and she is committing adultery by any other name.
    
    This smacks too much of the situation my daughter continues to embroil
    herself in.  Her boyfriends story was he was divorced but by raising
    several legal questions his ex had gotten the divorce reversed,
    he had sold a pyschology practice and kept forgetting where all
    he had his money stashed.
    
    TRUTH as I percieve it;
    
      1.  The divorce was drug out for over three years because he insisted
    on retaining the house and fighting over his son.
      2.  He and his son were involved in an accident and he wanted
    all the settlement money for himself.
      3.  He had a common law marriage with his first wife whom he claimed
    to 'have rescued from a bad home'.
      4.  He barely had two years toward a degree and was a tech for
    a license psychologist who sold out.
      5.  He refuses to see us to face up to his lies.
    
    I think You have just begun to scratch the surface of YOUR SO's
    facade.  Continued investigation of available info, court records
    are public information and available for the asking, is DEFINITELY
    called for.
    
    I think one of the two is lying about their status between your
    so and his ex.  You need to find out now which.
    
    Don
    

    re: .27  .28
    
    She IS committing adultry because the courts show that there is
    no record of a divorce here or in Washington. They do show a record
    of marriage beteen her and her new husband.  I asked what would
    happen to her if charges were brought against her; they said really
    not a thing, a slap on the hand.  The reason she remarried was because
    creditors were after her.  She has no I.D.  in her new name, no
    nothing.  SLIME!!  I would really love to turn her in and I ask
    my SO why he doesn't do something about it.  He says that it doesn't
    bother him, and he doesn't want his daughter to see her mother being
    rung through the court system or be sent to jail.  I guess to him
    breaking the law doesn't matter as long as you don't get caught.
     He says that there are worse things that people are doing and aren't
    getting caught; the police won't want to bother with something so
    stupid as BIGAMY.  I even explain the benefits of getting a divorce
    would be, especially at tax time.  Nothing gets through to him.
    
      So lately I've really been thinking a lot and have come to the
    conclusion the something drastic has to be done soon or I'm going
    to go nuts.  One BIG problem is that we bought a house together.
    I'm not worried that if she does decide to get a divorce that she'll
    try to take the house away; I've got proof of illeagal matters on
    her.  I know though that I won't be able to keep the house myself;
    $ !  I have found through living with him that we could be good
    friends but right now, I don't think that it'll go much further.
    Besides the non-divorce problem there are other things; 1) he has
    a vasectomy.  Now, I knew about this the first night we went out
    but really didn't think much about it.  I did let him know that
    if this relationship kept going and the idea of marriage came up
    that I definitly wanted to have children.  Well, he said that the
    reason he got his vasectomy at 22 after his only daughter was born
    was because he didn't want anymore kids.  He says he doen't make
    enough to support everbody.  He knows that maybe he could have a
    successful revesal of the vasectomy but he wants the procedure almost
    perfected when he decides to have one.  By that time his chances
    of being fertile are very slim due to how long ago he had it done;
    almost 8 years ago. 2) he has some real bad habits that he won't
    get rid of and laughs every time I suggest that he try.  
    
      I wish that I didn't let this relationship go as far as it has
    the way it has.  But before I figured things would change with him,
    he'd see that getting a divorce was the right thing to do.  Things
    haven't been to great between us lately.  He has said that I have
    changed and I guess I have.  I now realize that things probably
    won't change and I need to get on with my life and enjoy it intead
    of worrying that he won't get a divorce or that things are always
    going to be this way for me.  I really don't want to leave, but
    he's leaving me with no alternative.  I've told him how I feel and
    by that and by me treating him differently; not badly, he has, I
    think, gotten scared.  The other day he said to me let's go down
    to the stores and you pick out an engagement ring.  I said how can
    we get engaged if you're not divorced.  He said that once we got
    engaged he could "work on" getting a divorce.  Then I said what
    about kids?  He didn't say anything.  Well, later he said we'd have
    to see.  But I want to "see" before I commit to marriage.  I have
    always believed in marriage and I want it to work.  I know that
    if things are left as they are now, that marriage won't work for
    us.  So he has to do some UNDERSTANDING and COMMUNICATING before
    anything long-term is going to happen out of this.  One thing that
    did come out of this is that I learned a lot and have grown from
    this experience.  I wish that things could be different for us;
    he is a great guy otherwise.  I couldn't ask for anything more.
        What do you guys think I should do?  I had one male friend of
    mine say that if he's still married and seeing me then marriage
    nor committment doesn't mean anything to him.  Do you agree?
    
    Andrea

    Andrea,
    
    I tend to agree with your other friend.  Legal issues aside about
    his ex and her status, his lack of action speaks volumes to me.
    Just as the actions and lies of my daughter's SO spoke volumes of
    his true character.
    
    You and he both need to see counselors at first individually and
    maybe later as a couple.
    
    Are these issues so important to you as to be non-negotiable?
    
    I think space and time are needed by both of you in conjunction
    with the recommended counselling.
    
    Don
    

    What do I/we need to go see a counselor for?  

    Andrea....
    Sorry to butt in, but you seem anguished over the relationship you
    have with your SO and over the relationship he has with his ex...
    
    a previous noter suggested you see a counsellor, and your reply
    seems a little startled.... but, i agree with him.  if for no other
    reason, you should seek help from a counsellor/therapist to HELP
    YOURSELF COPE!  these sort of problems (and many of us have them)
    are very, very difficult to reslove by ourselves.  Sure, we are
    sometimes able to do it...or at least we think we do, but, when
    we involve someone who is not only trained in social/personal
    interaction, but has miles and miles of experience dealing with
    these types of issues, and who can view us and our problems with
    unemotional, objective eyes, the help can be amazing.  
    
    your SO's apparent inaction would seem to me to indicate that he
    is not willing or ready to be all that you expect him to be.  he
    may be "wonderful" and "all that you could ask for" RIGHT NOW! 
    but, how about six months from now?  or a year?  
    
    are you prepared to deal with these problems that long?  by yourself?
    there is no stigma to asking for help and obtaining it.  heck, you've
    already done it, by posting your note here.... so help yourself,
    Andrea... seek out a counsellor.  and if the first one doesn't seem
    just right for you, then find a second one...or a third.  
    
    tony	who_is_amazed_at_how_helpful_they_can_be
    

 I really don't see the use for a counselor for myself. That doesn't mean one
wouldn't be helpful to you, though. I think they pretty much tell you what you
already know.

 I think you realize that it was probably not in your best interest to buy
a house with a man who is married to another woman, even if she is bigamous.
His inaction will make him look almost as bad in the eyes of the court, 
especially since he is seeing you and bought a house with you.

 I think that you should both take some time to reevaluate your relationship.
A good way to do this is for each of you to make a list of the things that are
important to you. Then compare lists. See if either of you are able to 
compromise on the contradictory issues. You then both have to make an objective 
decision as to whether your relationship has a chance to work or not. You may
find out that it is unworkable. You may find out that compromises need to be
made in order to remain together.

 I would not wait for him to act. He seems to be a procrastinator 
extraordinaire (take it from one). Make him commit to you before going any
further.

 Good luck- and keep us informed. We care.

 The Doctah

ps- tony- where'd you get that p_n? :-)

    howdy, Doctah....
    
    there is a *remarkable* similarity in our p/n's, eh wot!
    
    been using mine for a couple weeks is all....it's a saying i picked
    up many years ago whilst in college.  probably a bit more accurate
    than the historical rendition.  8*)
    
    tony